It is "harder" in the sense of needing more mechanical input to experience any of the actual fun parts. In essence it is harder to have fun. What is the fun part of any multiplayer game? To interact with your opponent, the human vs human interaction is where the fun mostly stems from. In bw any meaningful interaction needs a lot of mechanical input, someone with 40 apm won't have any interesting experience for the most part. That's where modern games are different, you do not need as much mechanical prowess to actually "play the game". This is true for sc2 (though even there people complain because it's more on the difficult side) and other games like lol or csgo or now fortnite understood this as well. You can be elitist all you want, the real difficulty in any multiplayer games stems from the player vs player part, the game is just has "hard" to play as the level you are playing at. New developers understand this, making it hard for new players to have fun could be classified as bad design. I am saying this while playing scr more or less regularly, but people have to understand that liking bw isn't any kind of status symbol meaning you are superior to the "casuals". Ofc i am hypocritical here because i am quite the elitist as well in a lot of moments, but in reality this approach is ridiculous. BW just isn't very fun to play except if you are already somewhat good at it. That's not a good thing.
There's fun in the process itself, like it's fun to just split the workers perfectly, it's fun to click through 8 gateways in 2 seconds, it's fun to micro and macro, even if you lose. That's one thing I never experienced in SC2 for whatever reason. Just clicking things was more satisfying in BW.
On June 15 2018 00:55 juvenal wrote: There's fun in the process itself, like it's fun to just split the workers perfectly, it's fun to click through 8 gateways in 2 seconds, it's fun to micro and macro, even if you lose. That's one thing I never experienced in SC2 for whatever reason. Just clicking things was more satisfying in BW.
Well i personally agree with you, constant clicking and pressing buttons to get things done is fun to me as well. But for most people it's really not, these mechanics simply are in the way of the pvp interaction. Ofc this hurdle matters less and less the more experience you have with the game, but as i said before it is still a problem for new players or even just casuals who wouldn't wanna train the game regularly. The end conclusion will sound ridiculous to people here who are already really into the game but bw is just not a very fun game.
Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long.
My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does.
But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there.
Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid.
On June 15 2018 02:27 Galtath wrote: Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long.
My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does.
But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there.
Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid.
Teach them mechanics first...if they are serious enough to want to learn the game. If they aren't just play vs PCs or things like that and let them have fun with different units, while maybe giving them some basic mechanical ideas to think about.
On June 15 2018 02:27 Galtath wrote: Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long.
My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does.
But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there.
Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid.
Teach them mechanics first...if they are serious enough to want to learn the game. If they aren't just play vs PCs or things like that and let them have fun with different units, while maybe giving them some basic mechanical ideas to think about.
No I would not teach them mechanics. That's boring and a chore. Teach them cool strategies that they can use in 2v2 or 3v3 games, make it fun first. 1v1 is a chore even to someone good sometimes, I prefer to 2v2 myself a lot of the time, there's more interaction with other people and more varied strategies.
2v2/3v3 is the way to go imo. It can still be mechanically demanding, but you get to stay on one base for a while and can have fun with unit interactions and micro. You can teach them some of the mechanics along the way then, kind of a "did you know you can use control groups like so" or "did you know that you can use shift for...".
The problem with suggesting 2v2/3v3 is that they will hamper the experience of the average BW player with their suckiness, get shat on in messages as a result (how any of us have seen someone saying "RED WTF ARE YOU DOING" as they open idle SCVs into gas before depot?), have their partners leave once they ser this, and get kicked from games because of their shitty record.
Without an "inny" group of people to play with, I think teams are hard to enjoy as a noob simply because the average skill is not only still an obstacle it also affects others. I personally fell terrible when I don't perform well enough in teams.
Play them 1vs2/3/4 on bgh and say that you won't attack, and if they break you, you buy them beer or something. That should get them interested, and they can play without any pressure, just explore and try out different things.
Maybe set a time limit or smth, like 1hr. So next time they'd be inclined to ask for re
On June 15 2018 02:27 Galtath wrote: Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long.
My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does.
But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there.
Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid.
As someone who has struggled with this question for years, and who has failed to answer it over many years with many different people...
Honestly the best advice I can give is just don't give them any advice at all. Zero, zilch, nada.
Just let them play the game. Maybe start them off on the single player campaign. Let them get a sense of the game on their own, without anyone else forcing words down their throat or telling them what a build order is or a hotkey or a camera location or...
Nothing kills interest or a budding passion faster than information overload.
You have to give new players time to build a natural affinity for the game. That's how it was for me, you, pretty much everyone. Even if they say they're only interested in competitive, you cannot bypass time spent familiarizing yourself with the game on your own.
If they start asking for advice, then answer in the most open ended fashion that you can. Answer THEIR questions, and don't put words in their mouth or go off on tangents. We get that YOU know it.
Half the fun of StarCraft is having "AH HA!" moments.
On June 15 2018 02:27 Galtath wrote: Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long.
My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does.
But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there.
Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid.
Teach them mechanics first...if they are serious enough to want to learn the game. If they aren't just play vs PCs or things like that and let them have fun with different units, while maybe giving them some basic mechanical ideas to think about.
No I would not teach them mechanics. That's boring and a chore. Teach them cool strategies that they can use in 2v2 or 3v3 games, make it fun first. 1v1 is a chore even to someone good sometimes, I prefer to 2v2 myself a lot of the time, there's more interaction with other people and more varied strategies.
If they are just friends you're playing BW with, then I absolutely agree with you. Get other new players together and do 3v3 BGH/FMP/Comp Stomps/etc. That said, the guy I responded to specifically mentioned these were friends that were serious about learning BW. That allows a more efficient approach.
I disagree on the bolded. Perhaps learning mechanics is a chore for you. It isn't for me and others, nor is playing 1v1.
Reading his suggestion carefully, he states for friends serious about learning BW. If that's your goal, get mechanics first. Everything falls into place much better with a halfway decent level of mechanics. It also doesn't take more than a couple weeks to develop passable mechanics that allow you to macro up to 200/200 while moving an army around undisturbed.
It's hard to get newbies into SC:R because the base level required to win some games is pretty damn high. I've worked with co-workers in SC2 and managed to even get one of the engineers from silver to gold but im afraid he wouldn't stand a chance in Brood War. Most people can work at attaining a goal but it can get downright depressing climbing a ladder with several of the rungs missing. managing the gaps require serious fortitude as you stomach loss after loss.
To give an example from another community, Im a fan of singleplayer and multiplayer FPS games. I dived into quakelive when the playerbase was a mere few hundred active players. The battle was purely uphill and curiosity turned into frustration. It wasn't worth the headaches and I dropped the game.
I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play. That's the case with everything else after it becomes classic e.g. music, films, fashion, SLR cameras.
People would get curious how things were back then and they'll try them and appreciate them. All those PUBG, LoL and DoTa they survive because of current hype and money companies put into them. BW on the other hand survived on its own without any support from Blizzard having a great community of players. Nonsense? I don't think so.
It's the same with college private clubs for example. Not only you're not being paid as you join them, but you also might even go through painful trials to get accepted as a member. Still people do it and value it. Do you remember all those gaming clans without any sponsors, all those local teams? We play this game coz we love it, and money won't make too much of a difference.
I started playing BW late 2017. I still suck being at 1200 MMR but I realized how good and deep the game was and I love it to this moment. Recently heard about the LAN tournament in a different city and went there without any doubt spending about $350 of expenses just to get there and play. Died to a single vulture in my first game but had tons of fun watching other games and talking to players. BW has the best community by far comparing to any other game. Let's keep it that way. Our numbers are low but we are solid as a rock. Remember 300 Spartans? So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday.
On June 16 2018 07:16 QuadroX wrote: I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play. That's the case with everything else after it becomes classic e.g. music, films, fashion, SLR cameras.
People would get curious how things were back then and they'll try them and appreciate them. All those PUBG, LoL and DoTa they survive because of current hype and money companies put into them. BW on the other hand survived on its own without any support from Blizzard having a great community of players. Nonsense? I don't think so.
It's the same with college private clubs for example. Not only you're not being paid as you join them, but you also might even go through painful trials to get accepted as a member. Still people do it and value it. Do you remember all those gaming clans without any sponsors, all those local teams? We play this game coz we love it, and money won't make too much of a difference.
I started playing BW late 2017. I still suck being at 1200 MMR but I realized how good and deep the game was and I love it to this moment. Recently heard about the LAN tournament in a different city and went there without any doubt spending about $350 of expenses just to get there and play. Died to a single vulture in my first game but had tons of fun watching other games and talking to players. BW has the best community by far comparing to any other game. Let's keep it that way. Our numbers are low but we are solid as a rock. Remember 300 Spartans? So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday.
"I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play." The game has been in this mode for ages. Everyone says how AWESOME COOL brood war is. In case they really want to join the cool kids club they add how trash SC2 is. You hear that shit all the time. Yet for some reason, none of them play or stream the game. Those people played the game once when Remastered released and never touched it again. Liking brood war is like the coolest thing you can say
On June 16 2018 07:16 QuadroX wrote: I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play. That's the case with everything else after it becomes classic e.g. music, films, fashion, SLR cameras.
People would get curious how things were back then and they'll try them and appreciate them. All those PUBG, LoL and DoTa they survive because of current hype and money companies put into them. BW on the other hand survived on its own without any support from Blizzard having a great community of players. Nonsense? I don't think so.
It's the same with college private clubs for example. Not only you're not being paid as you join them, but you also might even go through painful trials to get accepted as a member. Still people do it and value it. Do you remember all those gaming clans without any sponsors, all those local teams? We play this game coz we love it, and money won't make too much of a difference.
I started playing BW late 2017. I still suck being at 1200 MMR but I realized how good and deep the game was and I love it to this moment. Recently heard about the LAN tournament in a different city and went there without any doubt spending about $350 of expenses just to get there and play. Died to a single vulture in my first game but had tons of fun watching other games and talking to players. BW has the best community by far comparing to any other game. Let's keep it that way. Our numbers are low but we are solid as a rock. Remember 300 Spartans? So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday.
"I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play." The game has been in this mode for ages. Everyone says how AWESOME COOL brood war is. In case they really want to join the cool kids club they add how trash SC2 is. You hear that shit all the time. Yet for some reason, none of them play or stream the game. Those people played the game once when Remastered released and never touched it again. Liking brood war is like the coolest thing you can say
On June 16 2018 07:16 QuadroX wrote: I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play. That's the case with everything else after it becomes classic e.g. music, films, fashion, SLR cameras.
People would get curious how things were back then and they'll try them and appreciate them. All those PUBG, LoL and DoTa they survive because of current hype and money companies put into them. BW on the other hand survived on its own without any support from Blizzard having a great community of players. Nonsense? I don't think so.
It's the same with college private clubs for example. Not only you're not being paid as you join them, but you also might even go through painful trials to get accepted as a member. Still people do it and value it. Do you remember all those gaming clans without any sponsors, all those local teams? We play this game coz we love it, and money won't make too much of a difference.
I started playing BW late 2017. I still suck being at 1200 MMR but I realized how good and deep the game was and I love it to this moment. Recently heard about the LAN tournament in a different city and went there without any doubt spending about $350 of expenses just to get there and play. Died to a single vulture in my first game but had tons of fun watching other games and talking to players. BW has the best community by far comparing to any other game. Let's keep it that way. Our numbers are low but we are solid as a rock. Remember 300 Spartans? So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday.
"I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play." The game has been in this mode for ages. Everyone says how AWESOME COOL brood war is. In case they really want to join the cool kids club they add how trash SC2 is. You hear that shit all the time. Yet for some reason, none of them play or stream the game. Those people played the game once when Remastered released and never touched it again. Liking brood war is like the coolest thing you can say
Just curious, do *you* play BW?
I had several adventures into brood war and a good 120 games in remastered. But always stopped playing for the same reason: Mouse and Keyboard block. Remastered added the pitch black minimap problem
On June 16 2018 08:40 2Pacalypse- wrote: Just curious, do *you* play BW?
Yes I do. Though I have a full-time job and could afford at max 2-3 hours a day to practice. Played around 1000 games so far and will definitely keep playing.
Do you guys have a site , like rankedftw, where I can keep track of SCremastered playerbase? A guy posted a source one year ago, but the link is no longer avaible.
EPT
So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday.
