EPTP.s: news about 2v2 ladder? I'd really like to play it with a friend, but I haven't read news about it in a long time
Starcraft Remastered population in foreignland?
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raff100
498 Posts
P.s: news about 2v2 ladder? I'd really like to play it with a friend, but I haven't read news about it in a long time | ||
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kogeT
Poland2038 Posts
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1973 Posts
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10dla
127 Posts
On June 13 2018 04:56 TaShadan wrote: Scr is a failure in foreignland. How many copies did they sell? | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
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raff100
498 Posts
On June 13 2018 02:38 ortseam wrote: Here you can see activity levels on each server. Thank you, this is what I was looking for. Btw the 500 peak in Europe is pretty depressing , but quite expected: the launch of remastered was extremely bad multiplayerwise | ||
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1594 Posts
On June 13 2018 05:21 raff100 wrote: Thank you, this is what I was looking for. Btw the 500 peak in Europe is pretty depressing , but quite expected: the launch of remastered was extremely bad multiplayerwise Even US West server regularly has 1k+ at peak. | ||
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tankgirl
Canada420 Posts
In summary, SCBW is the Badwater Ultramarathon of videogames. You're not ever going to have a huge participation. Besides, Blizzard acknowledged a year ago that SC:R was being released "for the fans" who had continually supported and played the game for 20 years. It was never intended to blow up to become the next League of Legends. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On June 13 2018 10:32 tankgirl wrote: SCBW is just too challenging for today's generation. People who grew up with easy-mode tap-and-pray games like Angry Birds and LoL won't give 2 minutes to a hyper-competitive game where they will lose the first 1000 matchmaking games until they reach iccup D-rank level (ie some knowledge of hotkeys/build orders/timings) and are able to enjoy themselves. In summary, SCBW is the Badwater Ultramarathon of videogames. You're not ever going to have a huge participation. Besides, Blizzard acknowledged a year ago that SC:R was being released "for the fans" who had continually supported and played the game for 20 years. It was never intended to blow up to become the next League of Legends. In what generation does the vile fastest map possible community fall in? Thats not the HARDCORE!! community you are talking about, or? Someone must have made that thing popular and dumb down the game. But why would they do that.... Also pretty sure that your generation was mostly playing UMS | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
On June 13 2018 10:32 tankgirl wrote: SCBW is just too challenging for today's generation. People who grew up with easy-mode tap-and-pray games like Angry Birds and LoL won't give 2 minutes to a hyper-competitive game where they will lose the first 1000 matchmaking games until they reach iccup D-rank level (ie some knowledge of hotkeys/build orders/timings) and are able to enjoy themselves. In summary, SCBW is the Badwater Ultramarathon of videogames. You're not ever going to have a huge participation. Besides, Blizzard acknowledged a year ago that SC:R was being released "for the fans" who had continually supported and played the game for 20 years. It was never intended to blow up to become the next League of Legends. As one who essentially replaced starcraft with running I find this analogy marvelous | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2272 Posts
I agree that the learning curve of BW is just too hard for new players to enjoy. is not like LOL or Dota where u need to level your account for a number of games before you are able to play competitive, in BW you are directly thrown into 20+ years of gaming experience and that shit is scary... imagine how many people would enjoy LoL if in your 1st week playing the game you join a public game and you have to face a team with 2 Challengers and a Diamond player... one of my best friends was a bw player since 2003-2010, then quit and started League with me and other dudes, when sc:r came out he played for a few months, then quit cause he said that the game was too stresful for him to enjoy anymore... you can't blame the public for thinking that a game is just way too hard to enjoy. | ||
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iCCup.Trent
Argentina450 Posts
EDIT: Ok; I'm wrong about "just as hard". Still stand by the latter argument. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 13 2018 04:43 Kare wrote: About 500 people online and 60 games being played is standard. Pretty horrible to be honest. as someone who played a lot of iCCUP during the "Dark Ages" of BW regularly I would only see about 100 people online at iCCUP at any one time during the day or evening in Europe. So this is a huge improvement. | ||
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
On June 13 2018 16:34 iCCup.Trent wrote: EDIT: Ok; I'm wrong about "just as hard". Still stand by the latter argument. Well, if you wanna say, that its harder nowadays, since everybody else already knows the game, then you forget, that learning the game still got easier since you can find any important information anytime nowadays. | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
On June 13 2018 18:42 Qikz wrote: as someone who played a lot of iCCUP during the "Dark Ages" of BW regularly I would only see about 100 people online at iCCUP at any one time during the day or evening in Europe. So this is a huge improvement. When was that? We always had 250-350 people in European evenings, exept maybe for exactly the last year when SC:R came out. Seems like pretty much all of these players moved over by now or at least made an account in SC:R plus a few returnees. As for why BW is not popular anymore, I agree with those who argue that you have to put it in historical perspective without playing today's generation off against earlier generations. BW is a gem of a game, but it has 2000ish level of graphics and control. If you grew up with it, you didn't really have a choice but to play and love it and you have a different, nostalgic relation to the game. Today you have thousands of other choices, not "easier" games overall (as if we didn't have easy games back then btw), just easier to control and with less of a mountain of knowledge/training to climb. You could also call BW cumbersome, annoyingly cumbersome, unnecessarily laborious mechanically from a today's gamers perspective used to multiple-building-mass-unit-selection-etc. And by now the veterans have an almost uncatchable head start. Given how fast games have evolved in the last two decades, you could compare BW to an early 20th century car that's competing with up-to-date cars... It has the charm of old times, runs stable (lel SC:R) and has a dedicated following, but it just doesn't fit with pretty much anything else you seek in that field of activity today, it lacks some very basic bottom-line-conveniences that have changed the gaming experience - and I mean: shifted the hardcore to somewhere else, not made all games easy. The still/again lively Korean BW-community doesn't counteract this argument actually: I assume hundreds of thousands if not millions of Koreans followed BW back then, so of course you'd have tens of thousands of nostalgic re-followers by now - who additionally can take part in it in new ways, too, like Afreeca streams. (I picked up the game in 2010/11 btw, having played the vanilla campagin when the game came out) On June 13 2018 18:51 [AS]Rattus wrote: Well, if you wanna say, that its harder nowadays, since everybody else already knows the game, then you forget, that learning the game still got easier since you can find any important information anytime nowadays. This is just a fairly unmeasured argument. Let's say it's 10-20% (or even more) easier to learn because of the access to information, but the mountain of knowledge and - didn't you forget that - skill that you have to climb is X times higher than it was back then. It's not so much about singled out information btw that you can look up just like that. Strategical concepts and weird, unintuitive tactics in BW are pretty hard to grasp and it's actually hard to find comprehensible, in-depths explanations. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1764 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
My feeling is that for the game to grow in this day and age we would need popular streamers who manage to draw people into the fascination of BW, show the complexity and fun in it and incite people to learn the game from scratch. It would have to be really likeable/sociable streamers - who wouldn't be rofl-stomped/ridiculed on ladder by the good foreigners - who can cross-over to the "not-already-BW-zealots" out there, maybe by playing other games also, who can give entertaining, illustrative commentary (in proper english, and at best while playing... this is incredibly hard though) and most of all engage into interacting with the viewers (if there should assemble any...). Such a person is not in sight. + Show Spoiler + Didn't watch much of Day9 for quite a while but from what I know - for all that he did/does for BW - his shows are too intrusively educational or, if they're meant to be fun, rather goofy/nerdy The members of the BW community would have to play their part, too. Populating these streams and behaving well and stuff... In short: We need the Grubby of BW... oh wait, there is none... edit: I guess I'm missing out on some of the recent initatives to cover foreign tours and such. Though whenever I watch those I just never feel as if they could appeal to newcomers in a convincing fashion to pick up the game. Maybe I do them wrong. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 13 2018 10:32 tankgirl wrote: SCBW is just too challenging for today's generation. People who grew up with easy-mode tap-and-pray games like Angry Birds and LoL won't give 2 minutes to a hyper-competitive game where they will lose the first 1000 matchmaking games until they reach iccup D-rank level (ie some knowledge of hotkeys/build orders/timings) and are able to enjoy themselves. In summary, SCBW is the Badwater Ultramarathon of videogames. You're not ever going to have a huge participation. Besides, Blizzard acknowledged a year ago that SC:R was being released "for the fans" who had continually supported and played the game for 20 years. It was never intended to blow up to become the next League of Legends. This no longer is an issue due to matchmaking. Yea it starts you off at 1500 so you might have to lose some games, but you'll quickly fall to sub 1000 where you'll begin to get games of opponents around your level. | ||
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iFU.spx
Russian Federation370 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
On June 14 2018 00:12 L_Master wrote: This no longer is an issue due to matchmaking. Yea it starts you off at 1500 so you might have to lose some games, but you'll quickly fall to sub 1000 where you'll begin to get games of opponents around your level. Even at your correct MMR you still need to make an effort, if you play like garbage you're going to get stomped by your opponent. Nowadays people prefer to play games that are overwhelmingly luck-based (e.g. battle royales and card games) or team games where your individual level of play matters little. These games offer instant gratification that SC will never be able to provide. | ||
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StateAlchemist
France1946 Posts
Now it's all about the best graphics, preferably in an open world, with a learning curve and a game difficutly that wouldnt challenge a teenage monkey. Can't do much about that. Just look popular twitch streamers for the "good" games of the moment, it's all about money and having fake personalities that either act dumb or show cleavage to get viewers. I'd rather stay in a small comunity with a handful of decent people. SC:R managed to attract a few nostalgic people, but you can't be expecting a fresh new playerbase it's not going to happen. Maybe a few curious people but that's it. Like i said, customers/players are expecting more from a game in 2018. I feel like the actual playerbase is ok, a bit better actually. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1594 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11511 Posts
The main problem is simply that if you start SC today, you instantly have to compete basically exclusively with people who have been playing for 20 years. Which means that you need to lose 1000 games until you can maybe start having fun. That wasn't true 20 years ago, because at that point everyone was bad at the game. Yes, winning is not everything, but if you are playing a competitive game and lose every single match, that usually isn't a fun experience and only a very small subset of people would keep doing that thing. Just take a look at yourself and ask yourselves if you would have kept playing SC if you lost every single game you played for two years. Sure, you may have simply played UMS instead (Because SC was the one game that you owned), but nowadays, you just play another game in that situation. But of course, it is much easier to blame the filthy casual kids nowadays. But what you need to realize is that they don't lose anything. They are playing games that are fun to them. The people losing something are you. Because you lose people to play the game you want to play with. And complaining about how the kids nowadays are just way worse than you were when you were their age is not gonna change that in the slightest. And it comes of as incredibly arrogant to simply dismiss anything in gaming that is not BW as boring while not actually having any idea what kinds of stuff exist. | ||
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Jealous
10154 Posts
On June 13 2018 22:14 Highgamer wrote: I second ggsmida. I doubt that it's about any feature Blizzard could add. If anything these features would stabilize what we have. My feeling is that for the game to grow in this day and age we would need popular streamers who manage to draw people into the fascination of BW, show the complexity and fun in it and incite people to learn the game from scratch. It would have to be really likeable/sociable streamers - who wouldn't be rofl-stomped/ridiculed on ladder by the good foreigners - who can cross-over to the "not-already-BW-zealots" out there, maybe by playing other games also, who can give entertaining, illustrative commentary (in proper english, and at best while playing... this is incredibly hard though) and most of all engage into interacting with the viewers (if there should assemble any...). Such a person is not in sight. + Show Spoiler + Didn't watch much of Day9 for quite a while but from what I know - for all that he did/does for BW - his shows are too intrusively educational or, if they're meant to be fun, rather goofy/nerdy The members of the BW community would have to play their part, too. Populating these streams and behaving well and stuff... In short: We need the Grubby of BW... oh wait, there is none... edit: I guess I'm missing out on some of the recent initatives to cover foreign tours and such. Though whenever I watch those I just never feel as if they could appeal to newcomers in a convincing fashion to pick up the game. Maybe I do them wrong. One example I guess is S2J. He hits a lot of the criteria, but not all. S2J is perhaps the most popular Falcon player in Smash Melee, and he plays StarCraft from time to time on stream, and is around 1800 Terran if I'm not mistaken. I think Mango played for a bit as well. Other popular streamers like Ninja, perhaps the most popular streamer in the world at the moment or at least near the top, mentions StarCraft here and there. It's a word that I think is in the back of every person's mind thanks to SC2 and BW's prominence covering more than 15 years of eSports. When people ask me what my hobbies are or what video games I play, I don't think I've ever talked to a person who didn't know what StarCraft is. My point is that while more top streamers devoting time to StarCraft would certainly draw some players, I feel like the majority of the middle-class-and-above Western population, or at least the male one, already knows about the game. They either played it casually in campaign, or know someone that did. Thus, it's not a matter of exposure as much as it is a lack of motivating factors to actually commit to the game, as you and others have alluded to. To combine the money idea ($5 million stated by someone earlier in the thread) with the streamer idea may be the best possible middleground - for example, taking the top 8 streamers on Twitch, and throwing them into two 4-player pools where every win nets you $x and every loss gets you $x/2. Then the top 2 seeds advance from each pool to the Ro4 where you get $y per game won and $z for the series win. I know players have recently (in the past year) been lamenting the invite-only structure espoused by some of the bigger tournaments, and part of that issue according to them was that there was a veteran "in-group" or whatnot that got all of the attention despite devoting years to SC2 or being well past their prime compared to top foreigners from post-KeSPA BW era. I feel like this would be different because it's not using some sort of nebulous metric like "who was good in 2009" or "who were my buddies who I got along with in the Golden Era" or "who was the most popular player/commentator 10 years ago," but a metric which is specifically geared to giving people who are professional gamers with little-to-no BW skill the motivation to stream their play and having thousands of people watch them, which in turn could correlate to people seeing their favorite streamer suck at BW but still have a good time losing and learning, which normalizes being a bad player on the rise so to speak. I feel like our community has, due to many of our long years in the trenches, become hardened and we have an insular aversion to being bad. Certain community attempts like CPL and Rookie Tour come to mind as examples of positive outreach programs, but even those garnered a majority of currently active "bad" players who were way better than Day 1 starters and who for the most part had TL accounts. This type of tournament would reach out to players who are TRULY bad, and we as a community would need the structures and attitudes in place to welcome those players and put up with answering the same noobie question we've heard 100 times in the past 10 years over and over again. I think that the established community is getting older, less interested, and thus we don't have those community efforts in place. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about from Fortnite. On the subreddit dedicated to Battle Royale, there are daily forum events like "Mentor Mondays" where people who have the skill level of a rock feel comfortable reaching out to better players and getting guided through the basics. In BW, we have clans and the SQSA thread and other similar things, but nowhere near that extent. As a final thought, I would like to again revisit SSBM and Ninja. SSBM's scene in many ways is similar to the BW scene, with its longevity, its rise and fall, its underground scene and its local scenes and its reinvigoration. Recently, during the finals of a tournament, Ninja stopped played Fortnite and put SSBM up on his stream and he delivered admittedly infantile commentary that still demonstrated how hype he was about the game. "Forward slash! Forward slash! Up slash! OOOH M2K WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN?! YOU GOTTA PUNISH THOSE!" etc. To a diehard SSBM fan, there might have been an instant of revulsion about it, and I did see many in the chat of the tournament stream saying things like "LOL THESE 15 YEAR OLD FORTNITE PLAYERS COMIN IN, HI KIDS." But at the end of the day, Ninja didn't care about any of that. He said something along the lines of "Smash is likes chess. It's like StarCraft. If you don't think this is one of the most competitive, real videogames, then you're not a gamer, simple as that." I am willing to bet that out of the thousands of people who watched that stream, at least some of them were motivated to dig up that GameCube or download Dolphin on their PC and give the game a go. This is what we need, in my opinion, for StarCraft to motivate people to put their hands on the keyboard again or for the first time. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On June 14 2018 02:29 EndingLife wrote: Almost a year in and we're still in beta stage. As much as I love this game, I can't see the population growing in the near future. You just described every Battle Royal game. You know, the games that attract millions of player no matter how shitty they are | ||
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StateAlchemist
France1946 Posts
Nothing wrong with hoping into a game that takes 10 minutes to understand, because you're having fun with your casual friends instantly. I'm not that much into this trend but it's obvious why people like these kind of games. | ||
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Frauenarzt
Germany22 Posts
still most people in sc2 are skill level copper after all those years and dont know how to do basic macro... when sc:r came out, i thought sc2 gamer who know how to do basic macro and didnt play the old starcraft would learn bw fast, like some people who played age of empires or something like that, when they came to bw they could reach kinda high level of skill pretty fast. (i dont wanna flame sc2 i am just trying to say that people lack the knowlege of rts/management which should make wins on lower mmr easily possible) also to learn games like LoL would take u many month, just to see all ~150 champions once to know what they can do... at least when friends and me started LoL , it took like 3 month just to be able to play ladder with 16 champs or something and lev 30? acc dunno anymore, but with the invested time u could ez learn the basics of every matchup in bw  | ||
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AF0x
United States59 Posts
It would be awesome to see Blizzard funding a tournament here or there for SC:R. It would be even more awesome to see another TSL for SC:R. I feel like the TSLs were by far the most hype foreign BW tournament I've ever witnessed. Having said that, I'm having fun playing a few games of ranked SC:R throughout the week at a relatively low (~1600) MMR. I run into a few of the same people on the ladder now and again, and though it may be symptomatic of a small player base, you can at least make friends and notice your own improvement by running into familiar names every now and then. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
1v1 is something very few like, and teamgames provide the most relaxed and socially fulfilled experience. I've been drawn into bw through hunters4v4 and gradually got into 1v1's once my mechanics started to show up. Insane that Blizzard don't quite get it... | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
And I'm not saying games like LoL aren't hard, but it's not as hard as BW. And I think this concept was known in the early 2000s of BW, so momentum never truly picked up outside of Korea. In korea, though, some of the leading pioneers such as Boxer/Nada paved the way. Kudos to them for paving the way in that culture, but outside of Korea, there weren't many others that paved it. There were some folks like Draco who did pave it a bit in Europe. And if you ask me, BW is much more popular in Europe than in USA. Sure, USA had some big hitters back in the day like IdrA/NonY, but it was just too late by the time these folks made it anywhere. BW was already not so accepted in the USA. [Yes, I know there's some more names I could mention between EU / NA, but you get the idea so let's not make this a conversation about "WHY DIDNT U MENTION WHITE RA OMG"] And we see some of those observations today; 1. Korea still super popular with SC. 2. Europe kind of popular ... look at our foreigner community, I would think majority of them are in Europe 3. NA / SA pretty dead. In conclusion, I think the way the past went paved the way for different regions. P.S. When I mention starcraft, people have rarely ever heard of it. So my experience is different than others who have commented saying "people know what SC is" | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
What is the fun part of any multiplayer game? To interact with your opponent, the human vs human interaction is where the fun mostly stems from. In bw any meaningful interaction needs a lot of mechanical input, someone with 40 apm won't have any interesting experience for the most part. That's where modern games are different, you do not need as much mechanical prowess to actually "play the game". This is true for sc2 (though even there people complain because it's more on the difficult side) and other games like lol or csgo or now fortnite understood this as well. You can be elitist all you want, the real difficulty in any multiplayer games stems from the player vs player part, the game is just has "hard" to play as the level you are playing at. New developers understand this, making it hard for new players to have fun could be classified as bad design. I am saying this while playing scr more or less regularly, but people have to understand that liking bw isn't any kind of status symbol meaning you are superior to the "casuals". Ofc i am hypocritical here because i am quite the elitist as well in a lot of moments, but in reality this approach is ridiculous. BW just isn't very fun to play except if you are already somewhat good at it. That's not a good thing. | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 15 2018 00:55 juvenal wrote: There's fun in the process itself, like it's fun to just split the workers perfectly, it's fun to click through 8 gateways in 2 seconds, it's fun to micro and macro, even if you lose. That's one thing I never experienced in SC2 for whatever reason. Just clicking things was more satisfying in BW. Well i personally agree with you, constant clicking and pressing buttons to get things done is fun to me as well. But for most people it's really not, these mechanics simply are in the way of the pvp interaction. Ofc this hurdle matters less and less the more experience you have with the game, but as i said before it is still a problem for new players or even just casuals who wouldn't wanna train the game regularly. The end conclusion will sound ridiculous to people here who are already really into the game but bw is just not a very fun game. | ||
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Glueburn
United States496 Posts
My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does. But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there. Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 15 2018 02:27 Galtath wrote: Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long. My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does. But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there. Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid. Teach them mechanics first...if they are serious enough to want to learn the game. If they aren't just play vs PCs or things like that and let them have fun with different units, while maybe giving them some basic mechanical ideas to think about. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On June 15 2018 04:48 L_Master wrote: Teach them mechanics first...if they are serious enough to want to learn the game. If they aren't just play vs PCs or things like that and let them have fun with different units, while maybe giving them some basic mechanical ideas to think about. No I would not teach them mechanics. That's boring and a chore. Teach them cool strategies that they can use in 2v2 or 3v3 games, make it fun first. 1v1 is a chore even to someone good sometimes, I prefer to 2v2 myself a lot of the time, there's more interaction with other people and more varied strategies. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Jealous
10154 Posts
Without an "inny" group of people to play with, I think teams are hard to enjoy as a noob simply because the average skill is not only still an obstacle it also affects others. I personally fell terrible when I don't perform well enough in teams. | ||
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raff100
498 Posts
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angrypofke
Lithuania174 Posts
Maybe set a time limit or smth, like 1hr. So next time they'd be inclined to ask for re | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On June 15 2018 02:27 Galtath wrote: Coming from someone who has had years of experience and fun with the game, trying to teach this to someone completely new is actually torture. It's hard to realize how many things come naturally to you after you've been integrated with the game for so long. My friend is completely new to Brood War and it is really hard to teach them anything. They are interested in fighting games and over all love a challenge, but have found the mechanics of brood war to be nothing short of a complete chore. I think it's hard to show off the appeal of of a hardcore RTS like StarCraft, and even though Day9 did a great job with his 'How to play StarCraft' series, it's asking a lot of any player to go from absolutely zero understanding of the game to any sort of working knowledge and then further to developing any mechanical ability. I've always felt there is a hurdle that you have to get through to enjoy the game, I've always thought it consists of knowing one basic build order for your matchups, and knowing what every unit does. But for someone that doesn't know what a zealot or gateway is, and doesn't realize that control groups are a feature until you point them out? It's hard. I've been trying to build a firm foundation, but it's really hard to show the game as having any sort of appeal outside of the upper echelon of hardcore gamers out there. Does anyone how to make this game fun for newcomers? It seems nigh impossible. And I'm talking serious new-comers, not someone who has watched from afar for a long time, or maybe played through the whole story when they were a kid. As someone who has struggled with this question for years, and who has failed to answer it over many years with many different people... Honestly the best advice I can give is just don't give them any advice at all. Zero, zilch, nada. Just let them play the game. Maybe start them off on the single player campaign. Let them get a sense of the game on their own, without anyone else forcing words down their throat or telling them what a build order is or a hotkey or a camera location or... Nothing kills interest or a budding passion faster than information overload. You have to give new players time to build a natural affinity for the game. That's how it was for me, you, pretty much everyone. Even if they say they're only interested in competitive, you cannot bypass time spent familiarizing yourself with the game on your own. If they start asking for advice, then answer in the most open ended fashion that you can. Answer THEIR questions, and don't put words in their mouth or go off on tangents. We get that YOU know it. Half the fun of StarCraft is having "AH HA!" moments. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 15 2018 05:20 LG)Sabbath wrote: No I would not teach them mechanics. That's boring and a chore. Teach them cool strategies that they can use in 2v2 or 3v3 games, make it fun first. 1v1 is a chore even to someone good sometimes, I prefer to 2v2 myself a lot of the time, there's more interaction with other people and more varied strategies. If they are just friends you're playing BW with, then I absolutely agree with you. Get other new players together and do 3v3 BGH/FMP/Comp Stomps/etc. That said, the guy I responded to specifically mentioned these were friends that were serious about learning BW. That allows a more efficient approach. I disagree on the bolded. Perhaps learning mechanics is a chore for you. It isn't for me and others, nor is playing 1v1. Reading his suggestion carefully, he states for friends serious about learning BW. If that's your goal, get mechanics first. Everything falls into place much better with a halfway decent level of mechanics. It also doesn't take more than a couple weeks to develop passable mechanics that allow you to macro up to 200/200 while moving an army around undisturbed. | ||
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KingDime
Canada750 Posts
To give an example from another community, Im a fan of singleplayer and multiplayer FPS games. I dived into quakelive when the playerbase was a mere few hundred active players. The battle was purely uphill and curiosity turned into frustration. It wasn't worth the headaches and I dropped the game. | ||
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QuadroX
386 Posts
People would get curious how things were back then and they'll try them and appreciate them. All those PUBG, LoL and DoTa they survive because of current hype and money companies put into them. BW on the other hand survived on its own without any support from Blizzard having a great community of players. Nonsense? I don't think so. It's the same with college private clubs for example. Not only you're not being paid as you join them, but you also might even go through painful trials to get accepted as a member. Still people do it and value it. Do you remember all those gaming clans without any sponsors, all those local teams? We play this game coz we love it, and money won't make too much of a difference. I started playing BW late 2017. I still suck being at 1200 MMR but I realized how good and deep the game was and I love it to this moment. Recently heard about the LAN tournament in a different city and went there without any doubt spending about $350 of expenses just to get there and play. Died to a single vulture in my first game but had tons of fun watching other games and talking to players. BW has the best community by far comparing to any other game. Let's keep it that way. Our numbers are low but we are solid as a rock. Remember 300 Spartans?  So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On June 16 2018 07:16 QuadroX wrote: I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play. That's the case with everything else after it becomes classic e.g. music, films, fashion, SLR cameras. People would get curious how things were back then and they'll try them and appreciate them. All those PUBG, LoL and DoTa they survive because of current hype and money companies put into them. BW on the other hand survived on its own without any support from Blizzard having a great community of players. Nonsense? I don't think so. It's the same with college private clubs for example. Not only you're not being paid as you join them, but you also might even go through painful trials to get accepted as a member. Still people do it and value it. Do you remember all those gaming clans without any sponsors, all those local teams? We play this game coz we love it, and money won't make too much of a difference. I started playing BW late 2017. I still suck being at 1200 MMR but I realized how good and deep the game was and I love it to this moment. Recently heard about the LAN tournament in a different city and went there without any doubt spending about $350 of expenses just to get there and play. Died to a single vulture in my first game but had tons of fun watching other games and talking to players. BW has the best community by far comparing to any other game. Let's keep it that way. Our numbers are low but we are solid as a rock. Remember 300 Spartans? So stop complaining and keep playing. It's a tough ride, but we'll get there someday."I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play." The game has been in this mode for ages. Everyone says how AWESOME COOL brood war is. In case they really want to join the cool kids club they add how trash SC2 is. You hear that shit all the time. Yet for some reason, none of them play or stream the game. Those people played the game once when Remastered released and never touched it again. Liking brood war is like the coolest thing you can say | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9505 Posts
On June 16 2018 07:20 10dla wrote: "I think eventually BroodWar comes into this sweet spot of retro game everybody respects and wants to play." The game has been in this mode for ages. Everyone says how AWESOME COOL brood war is. In case they really want to join the cool kids club they add how trash SC2 is. You hear that shit all the time. Yet for some reason, none of them play or stream the game. Those people played the game once when Remastered released and never touched it again. Liking brood war is like the coolest thing you can say Just curious, do *you* play BW? | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
I had several adventures into brood war and a good 120 games in remastered. But always stopped playing for the same reason: Mouse and Keyboard block. Remastered added the pitch black minimap problem | ||
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QuadroX
386 Posts
On June 16 2018 08:40 2Pacalypse- wrote: Just curious, do *you* play BW? Yes I do. Though I have a full-time job and could afford at max 2-3 hours a day to practice. Played around 1000 games so far and will definitely keep playing. | ||
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raff100
498 Posts
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Jealous
10154 Posts
On June 16 2019 02:23 raff100 wrote: Do you guys have a site , like rankedftw, where I can keep track of SCremastered playerbase? A guy posted a source one year ago, but the link is no longer avaible. That 1 year bump! Unfortunately, there is no such service currently available because Blizzard changed something on the back end that made that data no longer accessible. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1594 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:13 EndingLife wrote: I think you can do something like /users in the chat to find out how many people are currently on each server You can also see that information on the gateways menu (before you log on when you select your servers). I think US. West usually has between 500 and 1000 most of the days. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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art_of_turtle
United States1184 Posts
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 13 2018 10:32 tankgirl wrote: SCBW is just too challenging for today's generation. People who grew up with easy-mode tap-and-pray games like Angry Birds and LoL won't give 2 minutes to a hyper-competitive game where they will lose the first 1000 matchmaking games until they reach iccup D-rank level (ie some knowledge of hotkeys/build orders/timings) and are able to enjoy themselves. In summary, SCBW is the Badwater Ultramarathon of videogames. You're not ever going to have a huge participation. Besides, Blizzard acknowledged a year ago that SC:R was being released "for the fans" who had continually supported and played the game for 20 years. It was never intended to blow up to become the next League of Legends. StarCraft is the Dark Souls of RTS games. Except harder than Dark Souls. Dark Souls isn't even that hard, come to think of it. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 13 2018 15:45 XenOsky wrote: League of legends is actually challenging when you play certain champions. anybody that says that Dopa Faker or any other top LoL pro is not a gifted gamer is just ignorant, the same argument can be made for Dota 2 and a few other games like pubg or fortnite. I agree that the learning curve of BW is just too hard for new players to enjoy. is not like LOL or Dota where u need to level your account for a number of games before you are able to play competitive, in BW you are directly thrown into 20+ years of gaming experience and that shit is scary... imagine how many people would enjoy LoL if in your 1st week playing the game you join a public game and you have to face a team with 2 Challengers and a Diamond player... one of my best friends was a bw player since 2003-2010, then quit and started League with me and other dudes, when sc:r came out he played for a few months, then quit cause he said that the game was too stresful for him to enjoy anymore... you can't blame the public for thinking that a game is just way too hard to enjoy. Here a paradigm shift for you: The game is hard only if you face stronger opponents so the game is too hard to enjoy because there aren't enough new players in the game. In this regard we can call out those elitists veterans that are so ostile to new players and any Blizz initiative to bring new players to the game, not because they are evil but because they have this urgent need to show how better and superior they are at something in their miserable life. I may add that when you lose in a 1v1 game you have nobody to blame but yourself and in a game where to learn you're required to lose so many games... that's not compatible with the "winning over learning to feed my narcissism" western culture. To end on a positive note, the world is changing and turning more Korean than ever. What we now call "hardcore esport" one day will just be "normal esport". Never forget that the masses have been introduced into gaming just recently with the advent of mobile, even more recently for the esport. Those masses will eventually mature. | ||
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SSNYC77
43 Posts
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PorkSoda
170 Posts
On June 16 2019 23:30 AntiHack wrote: Here a paradigm shift for you: The game is hard only if you face stronger opponents so the game is too hard to enjoy because there aren't enough new players in the game. In this regard we can call out those elitists veterans that are so ostile to new players and any Blizz initiative to bring new players to the game, not because they are evil but because they e have this urgent need to show how better and superior they are at something in their miserable life. I may add that when you lose in a 1v1 game you have nobody to blame but yourself and in a game where to learn you're required to lose so many games... that's not compatible with the "winning over learning to feed my narcissism" western culture. To end on a positive note, the world is changing and turning more Korean than ever. What we now call "hardcore esport" one day will be just "normal esport". Never forget that the masses have been introduced into gaming just recently with the avvent of mobile, even more recently for the esport. Those masses will eventually mature. What a weird diatribe to try and make the point that Korean culture is superior because they’re the best at video games. One could make the same argument that American culture is the greatest because we dominate in basketball and the olympics. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 17 2019 00:58 PorkSoda wrote: What a weird diatribe to try and make the point that Korean culture is superior because they’re the best at video games. One could make the same argument that American culture is the greatest because we dominate in basketball and the olympics. I didn't say they are better at everything... they are better at esport. Wait, who created the main-stream-esport? Actually sportsmen are amazing at being hardcore, it's just gamers that still lazy and snowflake. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 15 2018 06:01 BigFan wrote: 2v2/3v3 is the way to go imo. It can still be mechanically demanding, but you get to stay on one base for a while and can have fun with unit interactions and micro. You can teach them some of the mechanics along the way then, kind of a "did you know you can use control groups like so" or "did you know that you can use shift for...". I've been talking to a number of sc2 people lately, many of them keep saying that they are waiting for team MM to be released to get into bw. I feel like releasing Team MM just after Carbot might be a huge opportunity because (beside kids) carbot is gonna appeal a lot in the west (me included lol). Following it with Tastosisday9 announcers pack would be the perfect storm because the basic announcers are way too serious and "angry" to pair with Carbot graphics. On June 17 2019 00:47 SSNYC77 wrote: SC is a great game but it is interface limited. It is like running ultra marathon.. If someone came over and purposefully shot you in both of your legs. That's just because you're used to sc2. You're not gonna convince a football player that he's playing against the ball because the ball doesn't fly and steer by itself. You're definitely not playing against the ball, you just control it better than your opponent. | ||
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
I would like to know how many top people play on Battle.net servers. I have come to see in this last month view as maximum: Korea Server 25700 players Europe server 1000 players West server 3800 players East server ?? players Chinese server 2200 players Do you think it will increase or will it decrease? | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
I think it'll fluctuate around there with a slight increase from Sc2 players watching enough of Artosis/Tasteless streams. I don't know enough about The south american scene though but it looks surprisingly huge(streamviews). Hopefully it keeps increasing but I think most of the players who felt like testing broodwar pre croona or oldschool players, have returned to it after like a month of quarantine. I'm just a hobby "pandemic gaming population anthropologist" though. Would be interesting to dm all the people on r/broodwar who started "new player" threads, see how many of them that stuck around. Do they give up after 5 losses or stay to learn? And how has the sc2players been doing compared to other rts backgrounds. And how returning oldschoolers from different eras have been doing. How are yall doing?! | ||
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