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On April 05 2018 13:26 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 11:05 10dla wrote:On April 05 2018 10:20 Shinokuki wrote:On April 05 2018 09:26 RomeD wrote:
I haven't really had any problems with the global match making or latency. Its been great to see the network improvements. I think their is a vocal minority of people having issues. Which its definitely good to hear and adjust, but keep in mind most of the rest of us are just enjoying getting in games when we can, and watching ASL5. Really looking forwards to 2v2 MM and a glad to hear its in the works. I played a 2v2 game recently and it actually went really well no lag thanks to your networking improvements, even with a friend who hadn't portforwarded and was a known lagger in previous patches. Additionally, I think the F2P and remastered MM has brought a lot more activity to and resurrected the game. Ignore the haters and keep up the good work Grant. what are you talking about? This isn’t a minority issue. Everyone from even 1500 mmr is suffering from low population issue and is having to face same player again and again. You have no clue do you? EVERYONE. Do you have global statistics/surveys/facts on that one? go to any sc rm forum and read my thread on extremely long queue time. you see people at even 1500 mmr having to wait long time. Also you guys are lower ranks you don’t even suffer the same issues we are facing. We are literally on verge of quitting. Foreign scene will only be left with ums and 150 mmr users
I just searched a game with a new profile. Took me 60 seconds to get matched with a ~1580 TR20 USA guy . I live in
central europe. Seems fine to me
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Dont forget that around 1500 MMR is the spike for amount of players. On 2300+ you kinda in no-mans land bc you are somewhat at the pinnacle of the foreign ladder. So just based on MMR your potential player pool is maybe just 1/10. Thats where korean players have to kick in.
Plus different timezones make it harder anyway. Further, dont extrapolate from your experience to everyone else experience.
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On April 05 2018 15:58 MarcoJ wrote:
Dont forget that around 1500 MMR is the spike for amount of players. On 2300+ you kinda in no-mans land bc you are somewhat at the pinnacle of the foreign ladder. So just based on MMR your potential player pool is maybe just 1/10. Thats where korean players have to kick in.
Plus different timezones make it harder anyway. Further, dont extrapolate from your experience to everyone else experience.
Let me quote him: "you see people at even 1500 mmr having to wait long time". "extrapolate from your experience". Do i have some kind of different experience? How? And when you cant find games across the continents...well...
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On April 05 2018 16:08 10dla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 15:58 MarcoJ wrote:
Dont forget that around 1500 MMR is the spike for amount of players. On 2300+ you kinda in no-mans land bc you are somewhat at the pinnacle of the foreign ladder. So just based on MMR your potential player pool is maybe just 1/10. Thats where korean players have to kick in.
Plus different timezones make it harder anyway. Further, dont extrapolate from your experience to everyone else experience. Let me quote him: "you see people at even 1500 mmr having to wait long time". "extrapolate from your experience". Do i have some kind of different experience? How? And when you cant find games across the continents...well...
Like i said take a good look at forums and my thread. Also the other guy mentioned he was 1530 and got 60 queue time. thats horrible. I used to get 20-30 sec at 2200+ months ago when we.m could play koreans
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20-30sec is very nice :O like iccup good time
"D+ D+ D+"
"go"
"prom/prom"
ALT+C prom tab prom select map enter instant join ALT+O gg^^
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On April 06 2018 03:03 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
20-30sec is very nice :O like iccup good time
"D+ D+ D+"
"go"
"prom/prom"
ALT+C prom tab prom select map enter instant join ALT+O gg^^
Yeah, those times were great. Especially when those games were definitly not full of smurfes. Just like on Shield Battery. When i was new on Shield Battery, prominent names in here didnt (did) join d- games
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i never really saw smurfing as a problem tbh, i don't do it, if someone did and i get to play vs a better player great that's what i was going for.. i guess for beginners it is more of a problem, makes it too hard to win and maybe even to learn to an extent lol although tbh all that beats you teaches you something
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I've been inactive the last few years (atleast as a player), so excuse me for asking a nooby question, but why in the world would you use a VPN for Starcraft? That just adds more latency to the game.
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On April 06 2018 04:35 L1ghtning wrote:
I've been inactive the last few years (atleast as a player), so excuse me for asking a nooby question, but why in the world would you use a VPN for Starcraft? That just adds more latency to the game.
To bypass long queue time.
It's in the thread title.
The match maker system has had some trouble causing unacceptable queue times for players.
But yeah, if this wasn't a core issue (which has caused me to stop playing starcraft for the last 4 weeks for example), then using a VPN would make no sense.
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On April 05 2018 15:47 10dla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 13:26 Shinokuki wrote:On April 05 2018 11:05 10dla wrote:On April 05 2018 10:20 Shinokuki wrote:On April 05 2018 09:26 RomeD wrote:
I haven't really had any problems with the global match making or latency. Its been great to see the network improvements. I think their is a vocal minority of people having issues. Which its definitely good to hear and adjust, but keep in mind most of the rest of us are just enjoying getting in games when we can, and watching ASL5. Really looking forwards to 2v2 MM and a glad to hear its in the works. I played a 2v2 game recently and it actually went really well no lag thanks to your networking improvements, even with a friend who hadn't portforwarded and was a known lagger in previous patches. Additionally, I think the F2P and remastered MM has brought a lot more activity to and resurrected the game. Ignore the haters and keep up the good work Grant. what are you talking about? This isn’t a minority issue. Everyone from even 1500 mmr is suffering from low population issue and is having to face same player again and again. You have no clue do you? EVERYONE. Do you have global statistics/surveys/facts on that one? go to any sc rm forum and read my thread on extremely long queue time. you see people at even 1500 mmr having to wait long time. Also you guys are lower ranks you don’t even suffer the same issues we are facing. We are literally on verge of quitting. Foreign scene will only be left with ums and 150 mmr users I just searched a game with a new profile. Took me 60 seconds to get matched with a ~1580 TR20 USA guy . I live in central europe. Seems fine to me
Using your experience isn't helping the larger community.
If you're happy with it, that's fine. But simply acknowledge that for many others, it is a valid concern and issue. You posting these sort of comments could be read and deter blizzard from actually helping (not saying that will happen, but hey, it could, right?)
It's simply about perspective and getting everyone in the community to a "happy medium" -- obviously, things will never satisfy 100% of the community. But we're VERY far from even 70% satisfaction right now, if you ask me.
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What a shame. Kinda makes me wish that they never did Remastered in the first place. I kinda gave up on Ladder earlier this year and resorted to only playing Custom Games with my practice nerd. And I honestly don't feel like paying for a VPN just to be able to play 1 game properly.
And how does a corporations "motivation" rely solely on their communities responses? Isn't the fact that your game created eSports motivation enough to deliver a quality product? What sort of standard do they have for themselves? Personally, I'd want my remaster to at least be as good as the original, and RM is not. To me, the communities toxicity seems like a lazy excuse. Just say that there is no money to be gained by bringing RM up to 1.16 and pass BW back to the community. But I guess that'd be bad PR for Blizzard.
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^ exactly i agree for me remastered is only a good thing if it improves on the original on top of making public servers ladder-enabled again. and it has not delivered, it is slow to start, slower interfaces, buggy, some loss of functionality, and then the ladder does not provide a practice environment on par with what we had before remastered either and so... i don't even want to launch it most of the time. just honest opinion :/ not for a lack of stating what I expected long ago, it's been a mess and then a status quo pretty much, just like I expected from the company.
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On April 06 2018 05:11 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 04:35 L1ghtning wrote:
I've been inactive the last few years (atleast as a player), so excuse me for asking a nooby question, but why in the world would you use a VPN for Starcraft? That just adds more latency to the game. To bypass long queue time. It's in the thread title. The match maker system has had some trouble causing unacceptable queue times for players. But yeah, if this wasn't a core issue (which has caused me to stop playing starcraft for the last 4 weeks for example), then using a VPN would make no sense.
i used vpn to play vs koreans on fish 1.16 ,is was the only way to play low lat games vs them from Europe.in the begin of remastered i was using it aswell to play low latency games,so when the people keep complaining they meet koreans lagger on ladder,was not the case for me,and the vpn i used was also tested by SC2 progamers to play in KR server.so for me it is ideal,sadly it stoped working for a while but now is back,so for me right now is just like when remastered started.
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On April 08 2018 01:13 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
^ exactly i agree for me remastered is only a good thing if it improves on the original on top of making public servers ladder-enabled again. and it has not delivered, it is slow to start, slower interfaces, buggy, some loss of functionality, and then the ladder does not provide a practice environment on par with what we had before remastered either and so... i don't even want to launch it most of the time. just honest opinion :/ not for a lack of stating what I expected long ago, it's been a mess and then a status quo pretty much, just like I expected from the company.
Expected from the company? How is it possible that Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 have working matchmaking, but for some reason developing Remastered seems to be a problem. What factor holds them back? They keep on saying: "They have to keep everything the same because people want that". Is having to keep the same for a 20 year old game a good thing?
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not the same, as good or better!
what holds them back, I already said what I think, there is money to be made putting the old popular game on the launcher and advertising for games with loot boxes and such^^
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On April 08 2018 03:00 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
not the same, as good or better!
what holds them back, I already said what I think, there is money to be made putting the old popular game on the launcher and advertising for games with loot boxes and such^^
So Overwatch doesnt bring people to Blizzard, its the Starcraft 1 community that shovels in the customer. Just like Incontrol said:" People are just in Starcraft 1 for exposure and money!". This is so funny
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On April 07 2018 23:58 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 15:47 10dla wrote:On April 05 2018 13:26 Shinokuki wrote:On April 05 2018 11:05 10dla wrote:On April 05 2018 10:20 Shinokuki wrote:On April 05 2018 09:26 RomeD wrote:
I haven't really had any problems with the global match making or latency. Its been great to see the network improvements. I think their is a vocal minority of people having issues. Which its definitely good to hear and adjust, but keep in mind most of the rest of us are just enjoying getting in games when we can, and watching ASL5. Really looking forwards to 2v2 MM and a glad to hear its in the works. I played a 2v2 game recently and it actually went really well no lag thanks to your networking improvements, even with a friend who hadn't portforwarded and was a known lagger in previous patches. Additionally, I think the F2P and remastered MM has brought a lot more activity to and resurrected the game. Ignore the haters and keep up the good work Grant. what are you talking about? This isn’t a minority issue. Everyone from even 1500 mmr is suffering from low population issue and is having to face same player again and again. You have no clue do you? EVERYONE. Do you have global statistics/surveys/facts on that one? go to any sc rm forum and read my thread on extremely long queue time. you see people at even 1500 mmr having to wait long time. Also you guys are lower ranks you don’t even suffer the same issues we are facing. We are literally on verge of quitting. Foreign scene will only be left with ums and 150 mmr users I just searched a game with a new profile. Took me 60 seconds to get matched with a ~1580 TR20 USA guy . I live in central europe. Seems fine to me Using your experience isn't helping the larger community. If you're happy with it, that's fine. But simply acknowledge that for many others, it is a valid concern and issue. You posting these sort of comments could be read and deter blizzard from actually helping (not saying that will happen, but hey, it could, right?) It's simply about perspective and getting everyone in the community to a "happy medium" -- obviously, things will never satisfy 100% of the community. But we're VERY far from even 70% satisfaction right now, if you ask me.
Silencing someone whose only point was that the stance you guys take should have a factual basis isn't going to help the community either. You are catastrophizing the MM situation by saying things like "Even at 1500 you get absurd wait times," or "we are not even close to 70% satisfaction," when according to starlog.gg you can clearly draw the line at where you think the "top foreigners can't find games" issue starts and judge based on that how many people are struggling. For reference, for 70% of satisfaction in terms of MM, I'd guesstimate that you'd only need to please everyone up to 1530. The further you get from that number, the number of people that are potentially dissatisfied with match-making (the ones located to the right of the cut) gets exponentially smaller. I would say that the amount of players above 1800 makes up less than 1% of the total playing population. Mind you, this is on a GLOBAL level.
So, as I mentioned in the other thread, the issue is probably not that Blizzard's algorithm is fucked up, it's that Blizzard can't spread a penny's worth of butter over a dollar's worth of toast. In other words, there are so few active 2000+ MMR players that matching them up consistently without issue is not a sustainable reality. The issue is that there are not enough good players who (still) play the game. There are not many up-and-coming players to replace the seats left behind by the competent veterans. That's the underlying issue.
EDIT: It should also be noted that every foreigner who uses a VPN makes it harder for those who don't to get games, further compounding the problem.
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you guys take should have a factual basis
I'd guesstimate that you'd only need to please everyone up to 1530.
The further you get from that number, the number of people that are potentially dissatisfied with match-making (the ones located to the right of the cut) gets exponentially smaller. I would say that the amount of players above 1800 makes up less than 1% of the total playing population.
So, as I mentioned in the other thread, the issue is probably not that Blizzard's algorithm is fucked up, it's that Blizzard can't spread a penny's worth of butter over a dollar's worth of toast.
Thanks for all of your facts, as usual always 100% the best source for information, knowledge, and basically anything you need from Jealous, your friendly BW forum Sooth-Sayer keyboard warrior.
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On April 09 2018 07:45 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +
The further you get from that number, the number of people that are potentially dissatisfied with match-making (the ones located to the right of the cut) gets exponentially smaller. I would say that the amount of players above 1800 makes up less than 1% of the total playing population.
Show nested quote +
So, as I mentioned in the other thread, the issue is probably not that Blizzard's algorithm is fucked up, it's that Blizzard can't spread a penny's worth of butter over a dollar's worth of toast.
Thanks for all of your facts, as usual always 100% the best source for information, knowledge, and basically anything you need from Jealous, your friendly BW forum Sooth-Sayer keyboard warrior.
After analyzing the data from starlog.gg more closely, I have come to realize that they used an incredibly stupid system for plotting their data points. They use 30 point intervals for 1200-1800, with each point not being just the people at that point rating, but all of the people that are roughly +/-15 points from that rating.
In other words, at 1470 they list 76,909 users, but what that actually means is that there are 76,909 users between the ratings of 1455 and 1484.
Meanwhile, in the 1800+ graph, they use increments of 10 points, which I believe do the same thing.
The more logical approach would be to have each specific rating point accounted for, or for the amount of users to be an area under the curve as their graph suggests. In other words, they should have either made it so that each point value from 1455 to 1484 had their own data point, with an average of about 2500 users at each point. Or, they should have made it so that the total amount of people in the graph between 1455-1484 was 76,909 people and scaled it accordingly.
So in essence, further investigation shows that while the graph is made to look like a Gaussian curve, it is actually two scatter plots with aggregate sums underneath each. As a result, this means that my guesstimates may have been a little inaccurate. Let's find out.
Going through the process of finding all of this out yielded the true data about the population of players 1200+ with a total of 5 games or more on ladder, as per starlog's limitations:
1. There are 462149 users in Global 1200+ with 5 or more ladder games played.
2. There are 429829 users between 1200 and 1800 MMR with 5 or more ladder games played.
3. This leaves 32320 users over 1800 MMR. This is roughly 6.99% of the player population with 5 or more ladder games played, which makes my guesstimate of users over MMR 1800 being only 1% of the population inaccurate, if we omit what I'll be discussing next.
4. 70% of 462149 is approximately 323504. The amount of players who are 1200 to 1530 MMR and have played 5 or more ladder games is 352518. This means that in order to have 70% of your players satisfied, you don't even need to satisfy everyone up until 1530 MMR, so my guesstimate was on point here if we omit what I'll be discussing next.
It should be noted that this omits all of the people who have less than 5 ladder games, which is imaginably a large number of people who either like or don't mind TR24. It should also be noted that this is imaginably all users in the past year, so many players may have gone inactive by this time and thrown a wrench into the statistics. It should also be noted that this omits all of the people on the tail end of the equation (looking at the CPL sign-up thread, it is clear that there are at least some below 1200 MMR users). Let's also not forget that the majority of active players are Koreans, who don't mind TR24 and actually like it a lot.
So, all of this is to say that the best data we have is still insufficient to make absolutely concrete claims about what % of people who are currently active are above 1800, or what is the minimum rating at which you will have achieved 70% satisfaction with TR24 implementation. However, this is all still much more than what you have contributed to the discourse with your snide comments and blind contrarianism, although I'm not surprised that one of the community's most derided individuals is behind them.
Think about it this way; if there were that many players outside of Korea above 1800 MMR playing, such that there would be adequate reason for Blizzard to bend to the demands of that demographic, you'd have no problem matching up with someone outside of Korea in your skill rating. The fact that you can't is testament to how few there are, and why that 1% figure may actually be more accurate than the data analysis from starlog may indicate.
In other words, Blizzard can't spread a penny's worth of butter over a dollar's worth of bread.
EDIT: I just realized that we can cut up the 6.99% of players above 1800 figure some more, as not all of those players are foreigners who struggle to find matches because they are not Korean. Korean server peak activity in recent times is ~20,000 concurrent users. Asia 4,000. West 1,300. Europe 700. East 350. Taking these numbers into consideration, we can estimate that by summing the respective peak times, with 20,000 Koreans out of 26,350 total, they make up 75.90% of active users in a single day. If we assume that all regions ladder equally (and because we know that switching your region to Korea or Asia gives no benefit to MM without VPN), then of that 6.99%, only about 1.68% of the total laddering population are non-Koreans above 1800 MMR. So again, my estimate seems to be quite on point. Thanks for the low-effort skepticism.
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EPT
