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[ASL4] Ro8 Preview Pt. 2- Bisu and Flash Killers

Forum Index > BW General
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[ASL4] Ro8 Preview Pt. 2- Bisu and Flash Killers

Text byBigFan
Graphics byshiroiusagi
October 22nd, 2017 05:22 GMT
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The first two matches of the quarterfinals have already been played out and the results couldn't have been more surprising for some fans. The first matchup saw Rain goes up against Larva who's been on fire lately and has seen a huge skill increase in the last couple of months. In quite the back and forth series with some cheese to boot, Larva managed to dispatch Rain, 3-1 to be the first to advance to the semifinals.

The second matchup saw Soulkey go up against hero. Many hoped that Soulkey will be able to overcome hero, alas, hero had other plans and through good micro and preparation, beat Soulkey in the decider on Gladiator. A ZvZ semifinals between Larva and hero awaits us! KwarK and Ty2 recapped group A and B respectively so be sure to read them for more juicy details!

This leaves two more groups, C and D in the quarterfinals. Group C between Bisu and Killer is set to start in and was previewed by BLinD-RawR while Group D, a TvT between Flash and Mind, previewed by Bigfan will start 2 days after. Take a quick look at the previews and let's get hyped for more BW!

Table of contents

  • Intro
  •  
  • Group A Recap
  • Group B Recap
  •  
  • Bisu vs Killer Preview
  • Flash vs Mind Preview
  •  
  • (Wiki)Liquipedia
Group A Recap

...

Game 1 on Crossing Field:
Larva (Z) spawned in purple at 10 while Rain (P) took teal at 4. Larva sent out his 9th drone across the map while Rain continued his established pattern of not 8 scouting, as we've seen in all his earlier PvZ on this map. Normally that's fine because normal PvZ games on Crossing Field are super macro orientated and you can blindly assume your opponent is going for a macro game. But normal games don't include the 9th drone being sent out. You don't scout to see what you expect to be there, you scout to find that what you expect isn't there.

Larva went for 12 hat proxied behind Rain's natural in the top right, 11 pool, while Rain opened 1 gate nexus no scouting.

[image loading]

Larva kept a drone on his ramp to deny scouting but Rain wasn't scouting until he had committed to his nexus anyway. Larva's drone on the ramp denied scouting, letting Rain assume that Larva had taken the back natural, and Larva appeared to confirm that story by sending a drone to fake attempt a hatchery at the front natural, getting repeatedly blocked by Rain's probe, even though it had neither the minerals nor the intent to make a hatchery were it not blocked. Larva knew the timings for a three hat macro opener and wanted to tell Rain a convincing story about how there totally wasn't a proxy hat behind his natural.

Larva grabbed ling speed while Rain's first zealot made it into Larva's base, expecting six newly produced lings from a 12 hat 11 pool and finding them. Larva still looked convincing as a macro opener, his second hat could easily be believed to be at his rear nat. The only "odd" thing was his extractor with no drones mining gas, a quick ling speed. Rain's probe was quickly picked off and his zealot retreated behind the mineral line and died, Rain wasn't able to get the vital information he needed.

Rain sent out a second scout probe but it wasn't drilled to the minerals in Larva's main, even though he had time to send it there before the zealot died. It didn't make it, but it was able to confirm ling speed and a few more lings than Rain might expect.

[image loading]

Rain smelled a whiff what the Rock was cooking and put a probe behind his zealot wall with a shield battery coming. But he wasn't sure enough in his read, he produced a dragoon (which sucks against lings) instead of another zealot, he didn't start a forge, and his probes weren't ready to hold.

Larva drone drilled up the ramp and his speedlings rushed in.

[image loading]

The first zealot got pushed into mass lings and died without doing anything and although the second zealot fared better, the dragoon that spawned to assist him wasn't the help he needed, not vs speedlings. It was over in seconds.

[image loading]

GG

Editorial: Rain showed an established pattern across the last dozen PvZ games and got himself cheesed for his hubris. Small edges from taking a series of risks can add up when you don't believe your opponent will risk everything to allin and punish you for them. But after a few games you should expect them to. As for Larva, clean execution. Nothing fancy but he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew that it would work. Sometimes you need to cheese to keep your opponent honest. There's a reason Protoss always used to scout on 8 in PvZ.

Game 2 on Gladiator:
Larva (Z) spawned in white at 1 while Rain (P) took green at 7. Much more standard openings this time around as Rain scouted anticlockwise on 8 and Larva went for a gasless overpool into 11 hat. The 11 hat was probe delayed, forcing Larva to spawn two zerglings and an additional two drones first for a 14 hat, despite having the drone at his nat with 300 at 11.

Rain played correctly, taking a 13 nexus before 14 cannon, and then 15 gateway, 16 pylon, very macro heavy with almost no cutting of probes. Larva took the gas expansion at 12 for his third hatchery and added gas for a very standard three hat lair opener. Rain kept his probe alive forever against the two slow lings giving him perfect information so he had no fear early, staying on one cannon and hiding a zealot at the 11 natural to sneak into 12. A fast stargate followed with +1 air attack rushed out.

Larva's starsense scouted the zealot at 11 and killed it for free with five zerglings while his spire was on time for the first corsair, preventing Rain from getting anything done. His three hats pumped nothing but drones, his only units in the first six minutes being his first six zerglings, an extremely macro heavy three hat spire five hat hydra opener which was completely unpunished. Rain's one gate late +1 speed zealots weren't even scary enough to force sunkens. Larva made a sim city but otherwise just continued to spam drones, a few scourge policing the skies.

Rain finally got his +1 speedlots, pushed out, and then immediately retreated because he knew his army was so much smaller than what he'd need to do damage that he couldn't even pretend to push. Instead he hoped that by killing the lings he might force more hydralisks while Rain got his storm out. At 8 minutes in and a base behind Rain was actually adding more cannons to his nat to resist a potential five hat hydra break before his high templar were done. The +1 corsair fleet managed to kill just a single overlord before losing too many to be effective beyond acting as a mutalisk deterrent.

Larva went up to seven hat on 4 bases while Rain massed on two bases before crawling out to his mineral only and camping there, spamming gateways and finishing his tech. But even with the mineral only he was a gas behind the Zerg, which meant fighting gas units (lurkers, mutas etc) with mineral units (mostly zealots). Rain's only advantage, if we could call it that, was Larva's willingness to stay on lair tech and try and beat him in a midgame tech macro war. Dancing hydralisks squared off against speedlots near Rain's third but the game continued to follow 20min no rush rules as both players declined a full on engagement.

12 minutes in, we got our first battle as Larva made a play for the high ground adjacent to Rain's mineral only.

[image loading]

Rain's observers were ready and he just trampled straight through Larva's lurkers with four control groups of Protoss infantry. Larva retreated with most of his hydralisks and a bloody nose. Rain pushed out to attack Larva's natural, which was defended by a thin line of lurkers on the ramp, while Larva's hydralisks looped around the other side of the map to counter at Rain's natural. Although Rain had a considerable supply lead, his zealots underestimated the depth of the lurker defense and were punished for it.

[image loading]

Meanwhile, Larva's hydralisks abandoned their own push and instead ambushed Rain's stream of reinforcements in the middle of the map, forcing Rain to retreat.

The first real battle went Larva's way. Rain's army survived but Larva closed the supply gap by 20 and didn't give an inch of ground. Map control was still in Rain's favour though and the 6 gas expansion was going up for him. Larva attempted to turn the victory into a push of his own, attacking a midgame protoss army using nothing but hydralisks and lurkers, without any mutalisks or other attempt to reduce high templar numbers. The results were predictable and stormy.

[image loading]

Successful pickoffs on all three of Rain's observers averted a complete disaster for Larva but the botched attack left Rain up 60 supply and on equal bases.

[image loading]

Rain pushed out into the open ground between Larva's mineral only and gas third and forced Larva to fight him on open ground.

[image loading]

Rain's dragoons established a broad front and a continuous stream of reinforcements flowed from Rain's gateways. Larva was able to snipe the observer again but only one lurker was left by the time it went down, while Rain's zealots had already broken through to 12. The defiler tech was finally done and Larva had the swarm he really would have needed to hold his lurkers against the mass dragoons 30 seconds earlier, but the 12 expansion and the three macro hatches there were already overrun.

The last of Larva's army desperately held onto the ruins at 12, at which point Rain's army, now 80 supply ahead and accelerating, simply diverted into the undefended mineral only.

[image loading]

Completely helpless in the face of the Rain steamroller Larva GG'd out.
GG

Editorial: If either player got an advantage from their defensive macro openings I'd have to say it was Larva, who wasn't even forced into sunkens with his three hat spire five hat hydra and got a colossal economy rolling by the midgame. The problem was that Larva tried to get into a midgame macro off with Rain in ZvP. I don't care who you are or how good at ZvP you are, you don't do that, not against Rain. You make lurkers to hold your bases while you can and you rush to hive to plague his army and swarm your lurkers when you can't hold on any other way. But a lair tech vs storm tech macro war against Rain of all players? I have no idea what Larva thought would happen when he tried that but I'm pretty sure that everyone observing knew exactly what would happen. As for Rain, the boy can macro, we all know that. I wasn't convinced by his opening, especially when the +1 sairs did absolutely nothing, but he did what he needed to do. Larva gave him a timing window and Rain threw 160 supply of Protoss ground units into that window.

Game 3 on Gold Rush:
Larva (Z) spawned in yellow at 12 while Rain (P) took white at 9. Rain scouted on 8 in the correct direction while Larva opened for a gasless overpool into 11 hat at natural. Rain went for 10 forge, 13 nexus, 13 cannon, 14 gateway, a little more defensive than he needed against two zerglings, both of which were chasing his probe, but completely fine given the overlord scouting his nat. Larva added a 14 hat at the natural to the third expansion, a play that immediately signaled his plan for the game. On three player maps, the deciding factor is generally who establishes the third base and the natural. By building his third hatchery at the 6 natural, Larva turned his cards face up and said "break a natural if you want to win, I'll be waiting".

Both players made nothing but workers. Rain added a quick second gas and scouting for Larva's third, checking the central gas expo but was unable to find Larva's third until corsair tech. Rain played a defensive opening, getting +1 air, fast archives, two gates and trying to take the 11 island early. Larva opted for the standard three hat spire but rather than the five hat hydra followup, as is standard, he opted for six hat sim city fast four base with sunkens.

[image loading]

Rain dropped two corsairs to scourge, both completely avoidable, and the game settled into the midgame with Larva up four gas bases to Rain's three.

Rain ran a dt past Larva's wall at the 6 natural but was unable to cap the hatchery there. At the same time, he attempted a +1 speedlot bust at Larva's natural but despite only facing one sunken and five hydralisks, his six zealots were unable to do any damage. Rain had map control but only three bases to Larva's four. He tried to do the same to the 6 natural but had to back off from there too. Mass speedlots, dragoons, archons etc ran around the middle of the map while seven +1 sairs slaughtered overlords but Rain did absolutely nothing with any of it. No expansions onto the map, no reavers to slow push the Zerg in, no dt drop play to knock out the low hp fourth base at the 5 main, just a lot of units standing outside of two fortified naturals.

Rain decided to try and batter down the wall with mass dragoons so he could flood in with his zealots and archons.

[image loading]

However, it all immediately went wrong. Larva immediately replaced the walling hatchery with an evo which could have been one shot with a single volley by five dragoons but which was neglected, causing zealot AI to go crazy running around it to get to the sunkens. And as they got on top of the sunkens, Larva finished his lurkers.

[image loading]

Rain broke through, finishing the last sunken with a dozen speedlots left while Larva's reinforcing army did absolutely nothing, running head first into Rain's greater reinforcing army. Rain was left with around six dragoons and ten speedlots in a base with only drones and three lurkers.

Rain immediately cocked everything up, trying to run his speedlots into a corner of the natural out of lurker fire, leaving his dragoons without zealot support to die to zerglings. Despite Larva having two bases to defend at 6, the main (still on low hp) and the natural, Rain ran his zealots into the corner of the natural and waited for Larva to move all of those scary lurkers away.

[image loading]
seriously, what the hell was going on here

Rain slaughtered all of Larva's overlords again which was a sweet move but static defense doesn't take control and Larva had a bunch of drones at 6 ready to turn into sunkens. Although Rain retained the upper hand and map control, which he used to take his mineral only, Larva had the third main and with it his win condition. Rain tried a dt drop in Larva's main but combined his dts and corsairs poorly, his dts hiding rather than killing the hydras which were killing his corsairs. All that resulted was the end of his corsair fleet which endured the full attention of the hydralisks while trying to kill overlords.

Larva upped to nine hatchery hive tech and confronted Rain with this bullshit.

[image loading]

Protoss has very few options against that. They are
A) Take the other main and nat yourself (not possible, three player map)
B) Slow reaver push into it (works until they have their defilers ready, then lurkling and swarm make things kinda ugly because your dragoons stop working and lurkers > zealots)
C) Arbiters with recall to snipe the bases behind the walls
D) Take every island expansion, build a robo, reavers, cannons, gateway, high templar and at least one dark archon at each of them, and wait for the Zerg to realize that you have more minerals behind your bullshit turtle than he has behind his.
Rain decided to go in a different direction, option E, attack it head on.

[image loading]

To spice it up, he decided to work in some storm drops too which were remarkably ineffective. With plan E failing, Rain decided that it was time to take a fourth gas and fifth base of his own at his central gas expo, actually putting him ahead of Larva on bases. With map control secure and up in bases, the pressure was really on Rain and so he decided to go back to plan E.

[image loading]

This may look a lot like the previous gif but this is actually a completely new attempt to break mass sunkens, lurkers, spores, and scourge with mass speedlots.

Larva expanded to the 3 island expo and Rain decided to try plan B at the 11 natural. This had the significant advantage of not being plan E, although it would have been great if he'd tried it five minutes earlier. The shuttle was immediately killed by scourge as it was inattentively left on the edge of Rain's army but the hydra den, a sunken, and a fair few hydralisks were killed by the reavers. That made it all the more unfortunate when they ran out of scarabs and were killed by a handful of cracklings under the uncaring eyes of the rest of Rain's army.

[image loading]
7/10 for concept, 2/10 for execution

The slow reaver push faltered due to lack of reavers, while Larva was able to safely take both 3 and 7 islands behind his walls. The walls did nothing to defend these bases which could easily be sniped by four zealot drops or similar but served as a great distraction to keep Rain busy. Sunkens and lurkers seemed irresistible to Rain. Larva broke through the eggs at 8 and completely failed to do anything to Rain's base while Rain established the central gas expansion that would be Larva's natural fourth base where the map evenly divided. With Larva's hive tech done, he started plaguing Rain's army, just because.

Rain was still 80 supply ahead, maxed to Larva's 120, but with Larva's two new islands, they were on six bases apiece and Larva was still sheltered behind his wall. Larva sniped Rain's new top expansion with cracklings and Rain responded with this impressive statement against anyone who might argue that observers are mandatory.

[image loading]

With the 7 island stopped, Rain was back ahead on bases and still had a huge army advantage, map control, and all the tech he could want. He therefore concluded that he desperately needed to break into Larva's natural, behind which were two almost mined out bases and exactly three of Larva's eleven hatcheries. It would have to be plan E.

He was greeted by a plague to the face, which he followed by storming all his zealots.

[image loading]

Satisfied with the outcome, Rain decided he didn't really want to break the natural anyway, and backed off. A four zealot drop into his 3 at the same time, chased drones around rather than targeting the hatchery, which was allowed to live for literally no reason. Rain decided the correct play was to try option B again, but mixed it up by taking his shuttle with reavers and flying it into hydralisks at the 3 island.

[image loading]

With his army waiting for reavers that weren't coming, Rain decided to go for option E again. And then for more drops into scourge.

[image loading]

One thing keen eyed readers may notice here is that the 6 natural is actually almost mined out at this point. The bases that Rain has been attacking no longer have any real money in them. Larva's lifeline were his two new island expansions, one of which was right next to Rain's base and was, for most of the game, open for him to walk his giant army in at any time. Larva plagued Rain's army a bunch but was otherwise content to sit behind his wall and wait to see if Rain would do something dumb. Rain, with his army mostly having 1hp under their shields, decided to try and break the 6 natural again. And to make it worse, he tried to do it with reavers attacking downwards without nearby support.

[image loading]
raise your hand if you know what is about to happen

The reaver AI did exactly what everyone knew it would, sending them walking directly into the sunkens where hydralisks promptly killed all three.

[image loading]

For Rain, the game was turning into some kind of farce, he was still even on bases but, in some kind of reverse Midas situation, everything he touched turned to excrement. He therefore decided to do the same thing he tried after the last six pushes failed, a storm drop with no corsair cover, which went the exact same way as the last five attempts.

[image loading]

It may sound like I am being a little harsh on Rain here but I assure you that it's every bit deserved.

At 25 minutes into the game, Larva decided to do his first attempt to attack, running lings into a cannon reaver storm defence at one of the central gas expansions with a drop in overlords ready to follow it up. However, after taking a look at the cannon, reaver, high templar defence, Larva decided that the game didn't need two players suiciding all their units over and over into fortified positions, and turned his overlords around. Rain finally decided to attack a base where Larva was actually mining and where there weren't infinity sunken colonies, and it actually went really well.

[image loading]

Rain killed the expansion and got great value in trade for his units as Larva poured units into a reaver, zealot, archon, high templar group. Perhaps Rain would turn his luck around.

Larva followed by giving Rain a gift of thirty supply wasted, dropping zerglings and hydralisks without dark swarm onto cannons and high templar in a move critics are calling "highly optimistic".

[image loading]

With the 3 expansion destroyed and 7 barely mining, Larva was basically on no economy, his first four bases having been exhausted or near exhaustion. Rain therefore decided to do what he always did when he had no better ideas, another single shuttle drop.

[image loading]

That didn't work and so Rain returned to trusty option E which had never failed him, attacking into the single strongest position on the map, behind which was absolutely nothing of value.

[image loading]
wow

Remember that at this point, Rain has six bases to Larva's six bases, and all three of the remaining base sites are in the centre of the map, completely under Rain's control. If Rain were to sit in the middle of the map doing absolutely nothing then Larva would mine out and have to push into Rain. Whereas if Rain were to break through here then Larva would simply kill the assimilators and drop a nydus at each of his two island expansions. There is absolutely no potential upside to Rain attacking, he doesn't want to attack, he doesn't need to attack, this is the wrong place to attack, he can only lose through attacking, and there is nothing to be won if the attack works. The only thing slightly worth killing is the five hatcheries in this corner of the map but Larva no longer had the economy to even use all those hatcheries.

Rain's entire army died, fighting lurkers without an observer to reveal them. As keen eyed readers might suspect, this was not the correct play. But Rain had his followup for his option E prepared, speed shuttles into all the expansions.

[image loading]

[image loading]

Rain actually managed to improve upon his usual followup, losing speed shuttles at two bases rather than the standard one. After his push into mass lurkers failed, Rain decided to remax with mostly zealots, perhaps thinking that the problem was that he didn't have enough zealots to beat 3-3 lurkers while plagued, and Larva promptly plagued them all again, reducing them to 61 hp. That made them significantly less likely to break through a lurker sunken defence than mass firebats. Outraged by the defiler, Rain decided to storm all his own observers, killing all three at once.

[image loading]

Rain also decided not to bother with any upgrades beyond 3-1-1, despite the fact that he had been maxed for the past fifteen minutes. I guess when you're assuming that every unit is going to be plagued armor upgrades aren't really worth it?

Rain decided to try another speed shuttle storm drop, confident that Larva wouldn't be expecting that.

[image loading]

In a shocking twist, Larva was actually expecting that and it didn't work. But Rain finally had option C, arbiters with recall to drop his maxed Protoss army onto the remaining mining bases, forcing Larva to forfeit the bases, and therefore the game, or charge into reavers, archons, and high templar to retake them. Finally, he would have a strategy beyond attacking headlong into sunken defenses. With any base on the map his for the taking, Rain decided to go for the 12 main, with such vital contents as a hive (after Larva already had 3-3-3) and a spire.

[image loading]

Larva briefly considered contesting the recall before realizing that his sunken wall at his natural was between Rain and the way out and that Rain had effectively taken his army out of play for the price of a spire and a spawning pool.

However, Larva wasn't counting on Rain, and his trusty option B.

[image loading]

Rather than recall his army out to somewhere it might actually be useful, Rain decided to try and brute force his way through. Then, thinking better of that, he decided he'd leave them there until he could recall back out. The good news for Rain was that he had a second arbiter with recall energy. The bad news was that he flew it into scourge. While Rain was still ahead on supply and had an army mostly composed of high templar, archons, and reavers, it was divided into two separate blocks which couldn't be combined. Fortunately, Rain knew exactly what to do. Clearly it was time for a slow reaver push into the mined out 6 natural, while ignoring the fact that all of the untaken bases on the map were within the center which was completely controlled by him.

Rain decided at the last second that what he really wanted to do was actually to try and break the sunkens at the 1 natural, but to do that, he would need to move all of his reavers. Naturally he took the most direct route, flying over Larva's 3 island and the scourge kept there.

[image loading]

Rain's urgency made sense when it emerged that his recalled army at 12 was trying to push down the ramp into the sunkens and lurkers, unwilling to wait for the rest of Rain's army. This was, as with so many other things Rain did this game, not the play.

With Rain's army still divided between the survivors of his first recall and the survivors of everything else Rain had done, Larva decided to put him out of his misery.
[image loading]

GG

(actually the game continued for a bit but I am done, fuck this game)

Editorial: Honestly this was one of the worst played games I've ever seen at a pro level, and I've been watching them for 15 years now. It might be necessary for Rain to provide us some kind of proof that he's not just a macro AI that runs a looped sunken bust storm drop command string. Either way, Rainbot glitched hard today. There weren't even any resources at the bases he was suiciding his army into. And even if sniping the 12 was important, there was no reason to leave his army up there, and certainly no reason to try attacking down the ramp. Rain had this game won for 20 straight minutes if he could just work out that there was nothing he could do about Larva's first four bases, and nothing that he needed to do about them. Rain was starving Larva, not the other way around, but he seemed to be completely unaware that he had already won the game. It was just sad. Apparently Rain has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ when macro alone isn't enough.

Game 4 on Fighting Spirit:
Larva (Z) spawned in brown at 11 while Rain (P) took red at 1. Larva opened 9 pool before overlord, while Rain went 8 pylon 11 forge double probe scout. Rain scouted no hatch at Larva's natural and added a 14 cannon before nexus without scouting into the main for the pool, knowing that both 12 hat 11 pool and overpool would have had the expansion by that point. Then he blocked the natural with a pylon while sending his probe to confirm that there were six lings coming. Larva was forced to make Rain cancel his pylon, allowing Rain to take a 15 nex (with 15 probes) to Larva's 14 hatch (11 drones) expansion at the same time. Advantage Rain. Rain sealed his wall with a gateway, using a probe with a mineral in its mouth to block the gap which is a cool trick when you're against six lings with one cannon because you can hit c (return cargo) and send it sliding back through the probe behind it when lings are told to manually attack it. Meanwhile, Larva just took the 7 natural expansion, repeating his game 3 strategy of taking a fast four gas.

Larva went for three hat lair while Rain scouted him with a decently microed scout probe. Rain put three zealots on the map, two heading for 7 while one went to 12, hoping to creep into Larva's main while Larva defended 7. Larva pumped out a dozen lings and took speed but was pulled back and forth by the two pronged attack, failing to have enough lings in either place to not take damage. However Rain microed his zealots surprisingly poorly, switching off of low drones repeatedly, getting drilled, and doing far less damage than he ought to have.

[image loading]

Rain got just a handful of zerglings for his zealots, while Larva's heavy drone pumping was rewarded with a very cheap hold.

Rain's corsairs were out in time to kill two overlords before scourge but Rain didn't then retreat his corsairs and wait until he had five and +1, instead deciding to keep being active on the map with just three of them against scourge. Larva followed his scourge with three more hatcheries, a wall at both of his fronts, and the 8 main. Rain's three corsair harassment went about as well as anyone expected it to go.

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Rain went to four gateways and +1, despite the fact that Larva didn't even have a hydralisk den yet and was just making sunkens. The correct play here would have been to take the 3 expansion quickly while getting high templar, but Rain only knows one way to play. Deciding that storm is highly overrated, especially as a tool for taking earlier expansions in PvZ, Rain turned his first two high templar into an archon and decided to try and do a bust with four gateways against six hatcheries, a sim city, and sunkens. Perhaps the most charitable word for this attack is bold. Failing that, optimistic.

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Rain took 3 finally, but Larva was already on seven hatcheries and four gas bases. Rain had total map control but no real ability to break Larva. His only option was to take another expansion, perhaps at the 12 high ground, add some high templar and cannons to it, and enter the mid game on even bases and gas. Larva had completely forfeited map control in order to turtle on four bases, Rain could establish and fortify his own bases at will, using his overwhelming army in the middle of the map to keep Larva contained. With this in mind Rain decided that it would be just grand if his completely mobile army went to where Larva's completely static defense was.

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The static defense was broken but Larva was up to eight hat and simply cleaned Rain up with a single round of unit production. Now that Larva had his economy and unit production exactly where he wanted it to be, and Rain had thrown away all of his zealots, map control was no longer entirely in Rain's hands. Therefore Rain decided that the correct play would be a pure dragoon high templar push, with no zealot or archon escorts (these having all been lost in the earlier attempts to break sunkens), against eight hatcheries. It turned out that speedlings and hydralisks do pretty decently when Protoss has no zealots.

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With Larva's hive now done and map control completely forfeited, Rain decided that he couldn't actually break Larva's sunken lines and that what he really needed was to take another expansion, the 4 natural. A dt drop distracted Larva's army, pulling it back to let Rain get 4 set up, and it was back to four gas bases vs four gas bases and protoss map control. With a significant supply lead and no more expansions possible for Larva to take it looked like Rain would take it. He could fortify 4, take the free main base at 5, perhaps also take a high ground, all while denying Larva anything beyond the sunken line. All Rain needed to do was keep map control and starve his opponent, equal gas is a protoss win condition in PvZ.

Despite being even on bases as a zerg and despite being unable to contest any other expansions the protoss might take, Larva continued to add sunkens to his wall. This might sound foolish, and were you to do it on ladder you'd probably lose to a protoss that just ignored your static defense and mined out the rest of the map while you turtled. But Larva had learned the lesson from game 3, Rain cannot resist a good sunken wall. The strategic situation is irrelevant, Rain just flipping loves sunkens.

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So Rain decided that what he really wanted to do in this spot was attack. But after testing the defense, he correctly realized that it was suicide. Only one logical option remained. While many people might think that option is to keep map control, deny the 9 and 12 expansions to zerg, take the 5 main and ride the superior economy to a win, Rain knew that it was a zealot elevator attack against Larva's main.

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In a shocking twist of fate, Larva actually had scourge near his sunken lurker wall and the elevator failed. But there was no way that that could have been anticipated.

With his elevator zealots being cleaned up, Rain decided it was time to back. And by time to back, I mean time to walk his entire army through lurkers, rather than taking the clean exit looping through the 12 expansion where any attempt to clean him up could be stormed in chokes.

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Even after all these botched moves, Rain's macro was still incredibly strong. With 4 up, Rain was on equal bases, equal gases, and fifty supply up with map control. The man can make units. He has no idea what to do with the units once he's made them, but he can make them. With total map control, up on bases, and pushing 150 supply to Larva's 96, Rain knew his situation was desperate, it was now or never, he had to try and bust Larva's natural. It's not clear why he knew this, but that he knew it is certain, as evidenced by the fact that he promptly did this.

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Rain's entire army promptly died to lurkers but he macroed up another one, sitting on just a forty supply lead after his attack. Larva attacked for the first time in the game while Rain replied with a storm drop that was actually quite effective, exploiting the battle elsewhere as a distraction.

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A cute egg block on the ramp while Larva attacked 3 delayed Rain's army but Rain was able to save the expansion, his much larger army showing Larva why Larva needed to stay behind his sunkens.

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Meanwhile, the storm drop shuttle had dropped off two dts in Larva's main which had further crippled Larva's economy.

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When the dust settled Rain was over seventy supply up, had total map control and had a fifth gas base coming to Larva's two mining bases and four bases total. The game was completely over. It was unlosable. Larva had no army to speak of, no further expansions to take, no way of contesting the map which belonged entirely to Rain.

Larva, in a desperation move, threw a bunch of cracklings at 3, without even dark swarm for support. They all died.

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The game was over. Larva had just his first four bases which weren't especially high on resources, very few workers at two of them, and no army to speak of. Meanwhile Rain had the entire map, all five bases down the right hand side, an army at 12, six gas to four, and an eighty supply lead. There was basically no way for Rain to lose from this spot. Larva would need a miracle, he would need Rain to lose his entire army for nothing, to lose map control, to lose both 12 and 5 for nothing, and even if all that happened he would need Rain to allow him to take the 9 expansion. Rain promptly balled all his zealots up into a tight clump and threw them, without any real dragoon or storm support, into massed lurkers.

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Rain appeared confused that clumped zealots don't break mass lurkers, but if game 3 had taught him anything it had taught him how to follow up a massed frontal assault into lurkers. It was time for more shuttles.

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Larva attempted to take the 9 expansion with just lurkers, no defilers, while Rain still had a forty supply lead. The question was if that would be enough for Rain to deny the expansion and starve out Larva. As Rain attacked 9 Larva dropped the 5 main with a handful of cracklings and no defiler for swarm.

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However, although Rain had a high templar, he declined to storm the lings, and he had neglected to make a robo, reavers, or leave any kind of army there. He'd also declined to place scouting pylons around the edge of the base for drops. But at least Rain could turn it into a trade, his 5 main for the 9 high ground expansion, keeping them on four bases each. Rain instead decided to hesitate his attack at 9, his attention diverted to 5. Then, after the 5 nexus was already dead, he decided he would rush his army back across the map and see if he could get there in time to, I guess, well, honestly it's not clear what he was trying to do. Either way though, Larva got 9 for free.

There was another storm drop attempt at 8 which didn't do enough and it was down to five bases each, the map divided with the three central expansions left untaken. Rain still had map control though, Larva having no hope of taking 12 or 6 against the reavers Rain had added to his army. Despite everything Rain was still actually in decent shape. Forty supply up, an archon/reaver heavy army, equal bases, equal gases, the only remaining expansions in his zone of control. Larva tried another drop at 5 but this time around Rain had reavers waiting and the drop did absolutely nothing, Rain had retaken and fortified 5, the game was his. Rain therefore went allin against Larva's natural again. Naturally.

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After all, what else could he do? Not throw his army into sunkens and lurkers? Take the remaining key expansions before throwing map control away? Heresy!

Rain took just one observer with his army, a low health one that immediately died to the spore colony, apparently deciding to make things interesting. The battle was still pretty young when the observer died and Rain could have pulled out without losing too much if he wanted but at this point I don't think anyone expected him to throw his whole army into lurkers and not commit to losing every last unit.

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Somewhat baffled by the death of Rain's entire army Larva decided to capitalize upon the map control by taking the 12 expansion, finally getting ahead on bases, despite not having had map control for any part of the game. Meanwhile Rain knew exactly how to follow up a frontal attack into lurkers and sunkens, clearly it was time for a storm drop.

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Rain realized that the game would be decided by who took the 12 and 6 expansions and that he couldn't allow Larva to take them. Unfortunately he realized this after having already thrown away his entire army into a base that didn't matter at all... four times. But at least he realized it.

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Unfortunately for him he didn't have the units left to force the ramp against lurkers, his only option was to accept that Larva had 12 and to fortify 6 with cannons, high templar, and reavers himself. He therefore tried to force the ramp against lurkers, and lost all his army. Clearly it was time for another storm drop.

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It all came down to the critical 6 expansion. Larva was basically mined out at his first four bases but had two new ones to survive. Meanwhile Rain's 5 main was fresh, with 6 it'd be a low eco war for the middle. There was nothing for it, Rain knew what he had to do, it was time for a full on attack move assault at the lurker defense at Larva's natural with a single observer, flown into scourge.

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To the surprise of absolutely nobody, Rain's attack didn't work. But that was okay, Rain had one last trick in his sleeve. A full on frontal attack into the lurkers, after first having everything plagued.

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And he had the perfect followup to that, a storm drop!

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With the game almost over the only thing Rain had going for him was that he still, somehow, had map control. He could still take and hold 6 and the middle with reavers, high templar, cannons, and maybe a few dark archons. Larva had mined out both mains and nats. With a failed drop or two the game would break down into a low eco stalemate. All Rain needed to do was not throw his entire plagued army into a line of sunkens and lurkers behind which were no mining bases, thereby losing map control with no potential upside.

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was there ever really any doubt that he would do this?

GG

Editorial: This game made it abundantly clear that Rain has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ beyond macroing. No strategic sense whatsoever. His macro is amazing, I can't take that from him, that's the only reason he was still "winning" for 25 straight minutes of suiciding army after army into a sunken line that didn't even defend anything of value and seemed to exist only for the purpose of baiting Rain. But he has no clue what to do against a turtling Zerg, and no idea how to close out a game. Artosis famously said "when you're ahead, get more ahead" and PvZ on Fighting Spirit that couldn't be simpler, the expansions are ridiculously easy to defend with storm, cannons, and reavers. Map control translates directly into expansions which, even if you never attack and simply mine them out, deny the Zerg any possibility of winning. At 18 minutes in to the game Rain had to make a series of around eight completely unforced errors to even give Larva a glimmer of hope. Rain scoffed at that, instead choosing to make nothing but unforced errors for the rest of the game.

Quit Starcraft. Really.

Group B Recap

Game of Swarms

The lights reflect off of soulkey's boldly rimmed glasses. Hero while nervous remains on the surface calm and steady. The players will need an unshakable tenacity for even a single mistake can mean utter defeat for tonight's ZvZ. Whoever wins tonight will be worthy of playing Larva in yet another ZvZ to prove who is the king of the swarm.

Game 1 on Gladiator:
The first game spawns Soulkey on the top left and hero in the bottom left. Soulkey decides to go for an aggressive 9 pool. Unfortunately for Soulkey, hero's overlord scouts him first, spotting his lair timing and realizing his lair first. Hero on the other hand goes overpool expand, probably expecting the 9 pool which proves strong on a map with inverted ramps and a semi-close rush distance. Soulkey not committing to aggression, instead focusing on his tech, leaves hero to a free expansion.

While Soulkey's economy is slightly behind, he gains map control and forces hero to invest in spore colonies.

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Following the mutas in tow is a deadly mass ling offensive that threatens to catch hero off guard if he drones too much. Fortunately, hero with good game sense, accounting for Soulkey's number of lings and the speed upgrade, made lings for safety that complete as Soulkey launches his attack.

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Meanwhile, Soulkey's base was strewn with several drone carcasses with a single ling from hero still chomping away. Soulkey, losing on both fronts, concedes an anticlimactic first game, setting the tone of an uphill battle for Soulkey.

Game 2 on Fighting Spirit:
Soulkey spawns in the bottom right, and hero in the bottom left. As both players go 9 pool, a decisive drone is killed off by a ling that passed through hero's ramp. Losing a critical drone, hero lags behind an increasing number of minerals amounting to the hundreds the longer the game goes on. The tremendous ripples of a single drop of a drone grows apparent for hero. Having a far slower expansion, hero's second gas is far slower than Soulkey's. Eager to deepen his advantage, he presses hero with his muta flock.

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Gradually, after hero suffers too many scourge hits, Soulkey snowballs in muta count. Hero's muta remnants are hunted down by scourge as hero is helpless to micro against them with so few. Soulkey effectively strikes back to make the series 1-1.

Game 3 on Crossing Field:
hero spawns on the right side across from Soulkey. Hero places all of his hopes in a 9 pool, a build that aims to counter the expected 12 hatch. Soulkey more than obliges as his misfortune grows two fold, taking the front door base. Taking the front base for a shorter rush distance for later aggression, Soulkey's plan of attack is completely undermined by hero's even earlier aggression.

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Soulkey's problems only began as hero decisively calculates Soulkey's overlord path, so his lings en route across the map go undetected only until Soulkey's second hatchery has finished. Abandoning his completed expansion, Soulkey cuts his losses, making a sunken in his main. While continuing to make drones, hero refuses to relent from his aggression.

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With more lings, he swept in for the kill, finishing off several of Soulkey's paltry lings and drones to gain the drone count lead. The following mutalisk followup overwhelmed Soulkey who can only summon a meager two mutalisks and two scourge as hero charged forth. In an elaborately planned game and impressive gamble, hero is one game away from taking the series.

Game 4 on Gold Rush:
Hero spawns at the 12 oclock and Soulkey, one game away from defeat spawns center left. A near moment of deja vu, hero plays the 9 pool card again, an unexpected move, but history is not repeated. Soulkey is saved only by his slightly more safer variation of a hatch first build, going 11 hatchery, then 11 pool.

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Hero's initial attempts to destroy Soulkey's expansion are thwarted by stellar drone micro. Losing only 3-4 drones, and keeping the expansion alive, but pulling nearly all of his drones in the defense kept both players nearly even. As hero followed up with mutalisks, he pulled drones from gas, and made a hidden hatchery at the edge of his main base. In a miracle similar to the one versus Shine, his hatchery goes undetected by mere pixels by Soulkey's overlord. With a third hatchery at the expansion and hidden from Soulkey's scouting lings, hero's intentions are not realized yet. Then he struck! Soulkey at the decisive moment has three drones popping just as hero swoops in for the kill.

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However, another miracle occurs, the audience spectating the ultimate hold by Soulkey as his just morphing sunken colony, drones, and lings desperately cling on. Eventually, hero's all-in peters out, leaving him far behind in gas income, later losing to Soulkey's mutalisks.

Game 5 on Gladiator:
In the final game on Gladiator once again, hero spawned in the bottom right and Soulkey spawned in the bottom left. Hero, truly the mind reader goes for overpool, a slight advantage over Soulkey's 9 pool. The early game is uneventful as both are heavily turtled until mutalisks come out. Soulkey's early speed and faster lings give him map control, allowing him to take his expansion earlier. However, hero has a superior gas count and faster spire while Soulkey invested in zergling speed. Soulkey, seizing a chance at victory brings the battle to hero. However, hero successfully micros versus scourge as Soulkey takes a few too many scourge hits himself.


Hero's superior build showing its merits in an explosive clash, Soulkey is left with a flock dissolving into thin air along with his chances of winning the ASL.

Based on limited information, including the habits of his opponent, the maps played on, and taking incredible risks of his own, hero pulled off a feat of victory by calculated risk. Anticipating from his opponent's habits and the maps played on, his play displayed extensive preparation. He made plays that actively sought to consider and outsmart Soulkey doing singular specific builds. While looking unfair, hero's plays could've easily put himself into a disadvantaged position. If Soulkey had not sought his own equally risky plays in the economic end of the zerg build spectrum, the story could've been much more different.

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Regardless of who won, Soulkey and hero fans join hands, rewarded by hero's smile which is alone worth living for.
Everyone wins. Everyone.

Group D Preview

Expectant Result

(Z)Killer has already gone beyond all expectations for the season considering how he got his start, however, this is undoubtedly the hardest part for him especially since (P)Bisu has been competitive about being on top of the sponmatch ladder.

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Taek a minute or two to compose yourself before going into it

Bisu is holding a 69.7% winrate in October in PvZ (most of his games are against Larva, although at this point that's actually a great way to measure skill in the matchup) and Killer on the hand has not been documented greatly since he has been for the most part preparing in secret with his last recorded sponmatches happening about 10 days ago. This makes predicting an outcome based on statistics more difficult. On the one hand, Killer is more than capable of being able to snipe out Bisu, which given the history of his past ASL runs is entirely possible and most likely how he would always go out. On the other hand, what Killer has shown so far in the month is very much indicative of his current level and will easily get 3-0’d by Bisu.

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A return to form?

Every season Bisu usually comes this far in a purely dominating fashion, not just winning against his opponents but just dominating them with beautiful play in the group stages. However, he starts showing some unrefined play in the bracket stage, although on paper against Killer, he absolutely would not end up this way and should easily crush Killer 3-0 with great ease. But, I’ve said the same thing about his series against Shine in the Ro4 of ASL3.

Killer has the best storyline this season, reminiscent of Jangbi's (Wiki)2011 Jin Air OSL run and for that reason, I can't help but root for him to overcome all odds and pull an absolute Killer series against Bisu (pun very much intended) and return to the form he had during his SSL runs back in 2013.

My head says Bisu wins 3-0 with Killer getting decimated entirely by the revolutionist.
My heart says Killer 3-2 because BW needs a damn miracle that shakes up the expected results.

Group E Preview

Mind Engaged

(T)Flash is known by many fans as the greatest player of all time and one of the hardest workers in the scene. During the KeSPA era, he had one of the longest TvT win streaks and has been known for his impeccable macro, strong micro and decision making skills. His ability to sniff out cheese is also uncanning and only few, if any can claim to have such an ability. This makes it all the more difficult to cheese him while facing him in a standard game means a potential disadvantage for his opponent.

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Build off... must be cheesing

After coming back to the scene with ASL, he was beaten by (T)Last 3-0, a smear on his good name by all accounts despite Last being a monster of his own. Vowing revenge for the Ro8 exit, Flash eventually had his chance and dismantled Last when they met in the last ASL, a 3-0 in dominating fashion. One thing is certain with Flash, he understands the matchup well and his stellar macro can help him elevate himself to the next level. However, (T)Mind is no slouch either. Ever since his main donor threatened to pull out during the ASL2 days, Mind has been hard at work trying to recover the skill level that he once had.

Back when he first returned to the scene, he was considered the best terran at the time, however, he fell a bit afterwards. He has recovered some of those old skills and his results have been fantastic. His TvT against (T)Rush in the deciding match in the Ro24 showed that Mind is able to remain calm and make good decisions even when placed in a dire situation. He looked extremely dominant in his match against (T)sSak on Gold Rush, despite sSak beating Last this ASL on Crossing Field and being his own enigma last ASL by beating a bunch of strong players. His macro does leave a bit to be desired at times, but his potential is one of the highest in the game. If he's able to practice and prepare well, he has a chance to best Flash.

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If we look at the most recent results, the last 9 matches or so for the players (too far back and the skill differential is too much), we notice that they have both beaten plenty of strong players and sit at an even 8-1 winrate. The matchup has been seeing more dropship use lately and air dominance might be key for Mind if he wishes to upset the returning champ. This is a difficult one to call for me. Flash certainly has the advantage. Of that, there is no doubt, however, Mind still has a chance and if anyone can upset Flash, it would be him. I'm going with the heart here, 3-2 Mind in quite the thriller final game. Let's go Mind!


Writers: KwarK, Ty2, BLinD-RawR, BigFan
Graphics: Shiroiusagi
Editors: BigFan
Photo Credits: Liquipedia, Dailyesports, Sbenu
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Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
RWLabs
Profile Joined March 2017
Korea (South)273 Posts
October 22 2017 06:12 GMT
#2
I don't know... I feel like Baxter (or Killer) is Shine in spirit with his off-the-wall crazy builds. I think it's entirely possible that Bisu loses without playing a single macro game against Baxter.

Also what kind of a name is Baxter?
Aldaris was the good guy of Brood War.
DropBear
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia4354 Posts
October 22 2017 06:30 GMT
#3
That poor man has a family Kwark!
Sucker for nostalgia
pinkbowtie1
Profile Joined September 2017
23 Posts
October 22 2017 06:31 GMT
#4
I normally enjoy reading these, but Kwark seemed unnecessarily angry at Rain. Comments like:

"Honestly this was one of the worst played games I've ever seen at a pro level"

"Quit Starcraft. Really."

are extremely unnecessary and unfortunately are a bit disappointing given the (normally) high level of quality, unbiased writing. I'm not sure if this is because he is a Rain fan and it hurt him to see Rain lose, or whatever the reason may be. Did Rain make bad decisions? Yes. Would he still beat most zergs out there? Yes. Did Larva play well? Yes. Does it justify this level of hatred? I don't think so.
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4128 Posts
October 22 2017 06:36 GMT
#5
Awesome writeup! Abit too harsh on Rain but I agree with you especially on game 4. If he had just turtled and got the 12 and 6 o'clock bases he would have won.
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
688 Posts
October 22 2017 06:42 GMT
#6
As a Rain fan, this was hard to read. As a Starcraft fan... you're nothing but right sadly
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 08:23:37
October 22 2017 07:53 GMT
#7
The article about Rain is so full of fan bias I could hardly make myself read it. Seriously, you call this objective or good writing?

First it was the series against JD which was full of praise and how good is Rain in PvZ , now how he "absolutely no idea how to play PvZ". This has been one of the best PvZ series this year and everyone will agree. But you covered it with your unneeded fanboism like an expired liver spread over a warm donut. Jesus KwarK, please next time don't write reviews if any of your favourite players lose or win, nobody want to read you subjective ranting about how Rain is bad in PvZ which is obviously not right but you deliberately making it look like that because you wanted him to win. Again, I am afraid to think what would you write if he actually won the game. This is ridiculous.
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6177 Posts
October 22 2017 07:59 GMT
#8
What Starcraft fans (me) need is a Bisu vs Flash finals, not an unexpected miracle with killer or mind shaking up the results
hiro protagonist
Profile Joined January 2009
1294 Posts
October 22 2017 08:04 GMT
#9
Yeah, with Rain and Soulkey out, there is no one on that side of the bracket to challenge Flash. So that makes me sad.

On the other hand, Bisu might just beat Flash and we might have a Bisu vs Larva finals which will be really good and could go ether way
"I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk
pinkbowtie1
Profile Joined September 2017
23 Posts
October 22 2017 08:55 GMT
#10
On October 22 2017 16:53 letian wrote:
The article about Rain is so full of fan bias I could hardly make myself read it. Seriously, you call this objective or good writing?

First it was the series against JD which was full of praise and how good is Rain in PvZ , now how he "absolutely no idea how to play PvZ". This has been one of the best PvZ series this year and everyone will agree. But you covered it with your unneeded fanboism like an expired liver spread over a warm donut. Jesus KwarK, please next time don't write reviews if any of your favourite players lose or win, nobody want to read you subjective ranting about how Rain is bad in PvZ which is obviously not right but you deliberately making it look like that because you wanted him to win. Again, I am afraid to think what would you write if he actually won the game. This is ridiculous.


Completely agree, these matches, especially match 3, was absolutely fantastic to watch.

Larva played like a god, and Rain kept him on the ropes for so long. The way Kwark wrote it gave so little credit to Larva, who showed one of the most impressive late-game defences/multi-tasking we have seen in a while. Infact, Larva's play made beating Rain look like child's play, but everyone knows Rain is a beast and would be able to challenge (and beat) most of the pro zerg players, bar maybe Soulkey, Larva, and Effort.
Zealgoon
Profile Joined January 2013
China187 Posts
October 22 2017 09:28 GMT
#11
I think this is the first time I heard someone telling a player to "quit Starcraft" in a battle report. Yeah, Rain's decision making in these games was questionable, but that's a bit too much.

What's so ridiculous about doing storm drops in PvZ anyway?
Netto.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Poland523 Posts
October 22 2017 09:32 GMT
#12
On October 22 2017 16:53 letian wrote:
The article about Rain is so full of fan bias I could hardly make myself read it. Seriously, you call this objective or good writing?

First it was the series against JD which was full of praise and how good is Rain in PvZ , now how he "absolutely no idea how to play PvZ". This has been one of the best PvZ series this year and everyone will agree. But you covered it with your unneeded fanboism like an expired liver spread over a warm donut. Jesus KwarK, please next time don't write reviews if any of your favourite players lose or win, nobody want to read you subjective ranting about how Rain is bad in PvZ which is obviously not right but you deliberately making it look like that because you wanted him to win. Again, I am afraid to think what would you write if he actually won the game. This is ridiculous.


Agreed. I still waiting for people to realize that Larva may simply be that good and it is not Rain who played badly, but Larva who played very well and defended perfectly.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Heartland
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Sweden24580 Posts
October 22 2017 09:57 GMT
#13
My god this was a big post. Maybe you should have considered splitting it in two? It was a very nice set of battlereports and good info on the Bisu/Killer game too!
bigmetazltank
Profile Joined September 2017
34 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 11:21:04
October 22 2017 11:07 GMT
#14
On October 22 2017 18:28 Zealgoon wrote:
I think this is the first time I heard someone telling a player to "quit Starcraft" in a battle report. Yeah, Rain's decision making in these games was questionable, but that's a bit too much.

What's so ridiculous about doing storm drops in PvZ anyway?


Storm drops' purpose is two-fold. Its to kill the economy, yes, but its also there to help slow down the zerg/mess with their macro by forcing them to spend a macro cycle building drones rather than offensive units. I dunno the number but it feels like a very high percentage of Bisu's storm drops happen around the time he's planning or had a big army engage.

The problem with Rain's storm drops are that they don't really achieve the second purpose because Larva had a huge number of hatches and didn't really play a game that depended on a strong economy. Namely because Rain wasn't doing anything with his map control after Larva said "go ahead, take it I don't plan on having a huge standing army". All Larva really needed was enough income to support base defense because of Rain's constant aggression.

So there wasn't any reason for Rain to actually keep doing storm drops. All he's doing is throwing 300/300 to kill like 8 drones...which given the number of bases and Larva's playstyle doesn't achieve a whole lot except make Larva mine out slower. We've seen a lot of protoss players throw games away by constantly doing storm drops only to end up starving themselves out because the protoss fails to secure enough mining bases while counter-intuitively helping the zerg mine out slower.

All the credit to Larva for some good play and in-series decision making (dude quickly figured out to straight turtle) but Kwark, while needlessly telling him to quit Starcraft, is pretty right in his assessment. Rain did was the equivalent of the Houston Rocket's offense - you're going to bust most teams in the regular season but you're going to die in the post-season because teams know your offensive is one dimensional and is extremely tiring to execute correctly. That's basically what happened here.
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
October 22 2017 11:42 GMT
#15
thanks for the write-ups. just read this after watching bisu-killer match and i’m not spoiling anything so my thiughts prior to bisu-killer was - of course i’m rooting for bisu and it looks like an easy series for him but somehow i feel he’s going to pull an upset. so i totally agree with the prediction, except my mind says 3-0 bisu and heart 3-1 bisu. i want killer to win one game to spice things up a bit and make the series a little exciting.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 12:13:28
October 22 2017 12:07 GMT
#16
I am curious to know now who is right regarding the Larva vs Rain series. Disregarding Kwark's harsh comments, did Rain play the series that badly? A lot of people found that series entertaining, but that doesnt necessarily mean that Rain didnt play bad.

Despite me being a Terran player who has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ, I strongly disagreed with a lot of more knowledgeable fellow posters that Rain had to kill Larva during that game or risk being overrun by a 4 base Zerg. And Kwark seems to share the same opinion -- and to an even greater degree by saying that Rain had "already won". I just thought that Rain wouldnt be at a disadvantage even if he doesnt break Larva.

If Kwark really thought Rain screwed up the games that badly, I can understand the harsh words he had to say. I would like to know though (just to improve my understanding of PvZ), how badly did Rain screw up? You have Kwark on one end saying he had no idea how to play PvZ (at least vs a turtle zerg). And the others saying he did what he needed to do but Larva played amazing defense. I am tilting towards Kwark's analysis. These busts look impressive when they work but a really good player is one who can gauge whether they would succeed or not. If you always just go for the bust and they just work most of the time on account of being that much better than your opponent, its no longer that impressive.

I would like to stress that I also was very impressed with Larva's defense. Its just that Rain played straight into his hands by apparently playing the only way he knows how.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 12:31:01
October 22 2017 12:25 GMT
#17
Is playing against a turtle zerg the same concept as when Flash first came up with the "Flash build" for TvP with armories and goliaths. It was defense oriented but also extremely greedy. So much so that the first response everyone had for it was to try and break flash since he was expanding at an alarming rate with so few units. Sometimes this worked but most of the time Flash just deflected everything.

It took a while for protoss players to realize that the correct response was just to expand even more. You'd have the scary prospect of facing Flash in late game, but would have a huge economic advantage.

I bring it up because I think there are interesting parallels. Trying to break through can definitely work. And most Terrans would probably get crushed. The skill level needed to play such an amazing level of defense is extremely impressive.

But the decision itself to try the bust was eventually proven to be suboptimal.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 12:30:58
October 22 2017 12:27 GMT
#18
I guess my impression at the time of watching the Larva vs Rain series is that, if Rain didn't attack, Larva would max out, plague Rain's entire army, and eventually overwhelm him. Once Rain was nearly maxed, his army isn't getting any bigger, so any delay just improves Larva's situation.

Clearly Rain made many mistakes in the series. I'm guessing he often wins PvZ by macroing really well and a-moving, so he might not be too experienced at decision-making when that doesn't work. It's not often that Zerg's defenses are impenetrable AND they shut down every storm drop you send. Yeah, I dunno, maybe Rain isn't super experienced with really late game, standoff style PvZ.

The write-up was overly harsh toward Rain, especially at the end, and didn't give enough credit to Larva for his excellent defense, especially of the drop attempts. Statements like "Quit Starcraft. Really." do not belong on TeamLiquid.
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
October 22 2017 12:34 GMT
#19
On October 22 2017 21:27 Dromar wrote:
Statements like "Quit Starcraft. Really." do not belong on TeamLiquid.

I dont know where I stand yet on Kwark's decision on how to express his disgust for the games.
But for the purposes of objectively analyzing the series, maybe we can all pretend just for now at least, that Kwark didnt disparage Rain.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 12:45:23
October 22 2017 12:44 GMT
#20
^ please use the edit button next time for that earlier triple post lol. We usually action for that but rather avoid having to do so ^^

Personally, I think Kwark was too harsh on Rain. I thought the series was amazing overall aside from game 4 which was good in its own right. Larva had fantastic holds and some of the best drop defense in ZvP that I've ever seen. It must've been frustrating as hell for Rain to constantly try over and over and for his usual not to work.

There's a good chance that Rain has never played a defensive zerg before so it figures that he wouldn't have a solution for it. Game 1 and 2 were fine, good games all around. Game 3 was great and the game was close. Larva stuck to the side bases and defended while he allowed Rain some free reign in the center knowing that it'll be harder to defend some of those bases.

I would say only game 4 had its issues and for me, it was that Rain should've known that Larva's defense is superb from game 3 and try something else. However, hindsight is 20/20. We have no clue just what Rain was thinking, why he kept doing what he was doing or what was going on at the time. It's extremely easy for someone to be judgemental but when you're the one in the game, you work with limited information and have no clue what the opponents plan is or what's going to happen.

As for KwarK's "Quit Starcraft. Really.", I wouldn't think much of it. He was pretty frustrated after having watched games 3 and 4 and believing that Rain threw away "won" games. I disagree because I think Rain probably just underestimated Larva even after game 3 and probably had other thought but to each his own. Well played Larva.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
October 22 2017 12:55 GMT
#21
On October 22 2017 21:44 BigFan wrote:
^ please use the edit button next time for that earlier triple post lol. We usually action for that but rather avoid having to do so ^^

sorry, posting on your phone can make you lazy... plus it avoided making it look like one big wall of text
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 14:24:16
October 22 2017 14:08 GMT
#22
On October 22 2017 21:07 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
I am curious to know now who is right regarding the Larva vs Rain series. Disregarding Kwark's harsh comments, did Rain play the series that badly? A lot of people found that series entertaining, but that doesnt necessarily mean that Rain didnt play bad.

Despite me being a Terran player who has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ, I strongly disagreed with a lot of more knowledgeable fellow posters that Rain had to kill Larva during that game or risk being overrun by a 4 base Zerg. And Kwark seems to share the same opinion -- and to an even greater degree by saying that Rain had "already won". I just thought that Rain wouldnt be at a disadvantage even if he doesnt break Larva.

If Kwark really thought Rain screwed up the games that badly, I can understand the harsh words he had to say. I would like to know though (just to improve my understanding of PvZ), how badly did Rain screw up? You have Kwark on one end saying he had no idea how to play PvZ (at least vs a turtle zerg). And the others saying he did what he needed to do but Larva played amazing defense. I am tilting towards Kwark's analysis. These busts look impressive when they work but a really good player is one who can gauge whether they would succeed or not. If you always just go for the bust and they just work most of the time on account of being that much better than your opponent, its no longer that impressive.

I would like to stress that I also was very impressed with Larva's defense. Its just that Rain played straight into his hands by apparently playing the only way he knows how.

The battle report basically can be summed up by "Rain, you played bad because you didn't win". If this is what you want, you're in the right place I guess.
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 14:25:50
October 22 2017 14:23 GMT
#23
Rain played a great series. He came prepared but Larva came prepared too. Therefore we saw one of the best PvZ series this year with excellent Jaedong-like scourge defense and same level of shuttle harass. You could see that the game could tilt into anyone's favor had this one made an error just in the right time. Larva was relentless and basically scraped his victory which only confirms that Rain tried really hard to win throwing any possible toss trick you can imagine nowadays, he even used arbiters! Does it sound like he didn't have a clue what to do? Well, maybe KwarK could beat Larva, who knows, at least he is trying to claim that he understands more than Rain in PvZ.
Zealgoon
Profile Joined January 2013
China187 Posts
October 22 2017 14:27 GMT
#24
On October 22 2017 20:07 bigmetazltank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2017 18:28 Zealgoon wrote:
I think this is the first time I heard someone telling a player to "quit Starcraft" in a battle report. Yeah, Rain's decision making in these games was questionable, but that's a bit too much.

What's so ridiculous about doing storm drops in PvZ anyway?


Storm drops' purpose is two-fold. Its to kill the economy, yes, but its also there to help slow down the zerg/mess with their macro by forcing them to spend a macro cycle building drones rather than offensive units. I dunno the number but it feels like a very high percentage of Bisu's storm drops happen around the time he's planning or had a big army engage.

The problem with Rain's storm drops are that they don't really achieve the second purpose because Larva had a huge number of hatches and didn't really play a game that depended on a strong economy. Namely because Rain wasn't doing anything with his map control after Larva said "go ahead, take it I don't plan on having a huge standing army". All Larva really needed was enough income to support base defense because of Rain's constant aggression.

So there wasn't any reason for Rain to actually keep doing storm drops. All he's doing is throwing 300/300 to kill like 8 drones...which given the number of bases and Larva's playstyle doesn't achieve a whole lot except make Larva mine out slower. We've seen a lot of protoss players throw games away by constantly doing storm drops only to end up starving themselves out because the protoss fails to secure enough mining bases while counter-intuitively helping the zerg mine out slower.

All the credit to Larva for some good play and in-series decision making (dude quickly figured out to straight turtle) but Kwark, while needlessly telling him to quit Starcraft, is pretty right in his assessment. Rain did was the equivalent of the Houston Rocket's offense - you're going to bust most teams in the regular season but you're going to die in the post-season because teams know your offensive is one dimensional and is extremely tiring to execute correctly. That's basically what happened here.

Thanks for the post. I still think the storm drops weren't such a terrible idea - forcing zerg to spend larvae on drones is almost always good, and since Rain was ahead economically he could afford small trades. But perhaps I'm projecting myself on much better players; I know I find storm drops very obnoxious when I'm behind in ZvP.
Broodwar4lyf
Profile Blog Joined February 2016
304 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 14:32:15
October 22 2017 14:30 GMT
#25
Rain's play was garbage. He's a good player who beats top 10 guys when he's in form. But the guy who showed up played reckless, careless and just terrible. Even if he won the series nothing would change how his mistakes did not look like a top BW player sorry. It's tough beating a successfully turtling Zerg but Larva was by no means doing anything BUT that during a long period which any top player of Rain's caliber would at least have capitalized on. Even the commentators were doing their best not to say that he was playing terribly. Watch the games again
https://cinesnipe.com
xccam
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Great Britain1150 Posts
October 22 2017 14:32 GMT
#26
Bisu vs Killer spoilers + Show Spoiler +
If Kwark thinks a very close series with multiple VERY close losses means Rain can't play PvZ at all I would be interested to see his comments on Killer who clearly doesn't actually play starcraft given how badly he lost every game.

OR maybe Starcraft is hard and you sometimes play well and still lose.


Seems very results oriented, "he lost so what he did was bad", I doubt the recap would have said that rain won despite his strategy if he had succeeded with winning those games (which he very nearly did by my reckoning)
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 14:57:58
October 22 2017 14:55 GMT
#27
On October 22 2017 23:30 Broodwar4lyf wrote:
Rain's play was garbage. He's a good player who beats top 10 guys when he's in form. But the guy who showed up played reckless, careless and just terrible. Even if he won the series nothing would change how his mistakes did not look like a top BW player sorry. It's tough beating a successfully turtling Zerg but Larva was by no means doing anything BUT that during a long period which any top player of Rain's caliber would at least have capitalized on. Even the commentators were doing their best not to say that he was playing terribly. Watch the games again

Can you please tell us what exactly was "reckless, careless and just terrible" in Rain's play? Honestly, I am amused to find out Also, what was that exactly that "any top player would have capitalized on" against Larva?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 22 2017 15:56 GMT
#28
On October 22 2017 23:55 letian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2017 23:30 Broodwar4lyf wrote:
Rain's play was garbage. He's a good player who beats top 10 guys when he's in form. But the guy who showed up played reckless, careless and just terrible. Even if he won the series nothing would change how his mistakes did not look like a top BW player sorry. It's tough beating a successfully turtling Zerg but Larva was by no means doing anything BUT that during a long period which any top player of Rain's caliber would at least have capitalized on. Even the commentators were doing their best not to say that he was playing terribly. Watch the games again

Can you please tell us what exactly was "reckless, careless and just terrible" in Rain's play? Honestly, I am amused to find out Also, what was that exactly that "any top player would have capitalized on" against Larva?

Rain had the games 110% in the bag by having map control, an insurmountable economic and army advantage, and control of all the remaining expansion sites. But instead of taking them, putting cannons, ht, reavers and so forth at them, and simply waiting for Larva to mine out, he went allin trying to break Larva.

It was reckless because the upside of the attacks, if they worked, was winning a won game slightly sooner. Whereas the downside, if they failed, was potentially losing the game.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 16:27:57
October 22 2017 16:27 GMT
#29
On October 23 2017 00:56 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2017 23:55 letian wrote:
On October 22 2017 23:30 Broodwar4lyf wrote:
Rain's play was garbage. He's a good player who beats top 10 guys when he's in form. But the guy who showed up played reckless, careless and just terrible. Even if he won the series nothing would change how his mistakes did not look like a top BW player sorry. It's tough beating a successfully turtling Zerg but Larva was by no means doing anything BUT that during a long period which any top player of Rain's caliber would at least have capitalized on. Even the commentators were doing their best not to say that he was playing terribly. Watch the games again

Can you please tell us what exactly was "reckless, careless and just terrible" in Rain's play? Honestly, I am amused to find out Also, what was that exactly that "any top player would have capitalized on" against Larva?

Rain had the games 110% in the bag by having map control, an insurmountable economic and army advantage, and control of all the remaining expansion sites. But instead of taking them, putting cannons, ht, reavers and so forth at them, and simply waiting for Larva to mine out, he went allin trying to break Larva.

It was reckless because the upside of the attacks, if they worked, was winning a won game slightly sooner. Whereas the downside, if they failed, was potentially losing the game.

Well, maybe we can translate this into Korean and send to Rain because he probably thinks it wasn't that close. Hell, he might even thank you for pointing out his mistakes.
The Intrepid
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada205 Posts
October 22 2017 16:27 GMT
#30
Very entertaining write-up, Kwark, even if a bit over the top! Rain should not "quit starcrft," but learn from this series and make adjustments to how he proceeds about winning games when he is ahead. Rain could go far in the next ASL.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
Ganfei2
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
473 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 17:19:39
October 22 2017 17:18 GMT
#31
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 18:50:42
October 22 2017 18:47 GMT
#32
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.

It's pretty simple. This is not a personal blog (in which case it would be totally ok) but a community site. So if you do write things, please at least try to look objective by focusing not only on one player (just count how many times he started a sentence with Rain did this and Rain did that) or don't write at all if you value you work and time. Personally, I don't like such approach because it clouds what was actually going on in the game. And please, Rain didn't play bad ffs because if he played bad then I think for about 10 years of watching BW, I learnt fucking nothing.

Anyone else with his 5 cents on how Rain played poorly because he didn't win?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 22 2017 18:54 GMT
#33
On October 23 2017 01:27 letian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 00:56 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2017 23:55 letian wrote:
On October 22 2017 23:30 Broodwar4lyf wrote:
Rain's play was garbage. He's a good player who beats top 10 guys when he's in form. But the guy who showed up played reckless, careless and just terrible. Even if he won the series nothing would change how his mistakes did not look like a top BW player sorry. It's tough beating a successfully turtling Zerg but Larva was by no means doing anything BUT that during a long period which any top player of Rain's caliber would at least have capitalized on. Even the commentators were doing their best not to say that he was playing terribly. Watch the games again

Can you please tell us what exactly was "reckless, careless and just terrible" in Rain's play? Honestly, I am amused to find out Also, what was that exactly that "any top player would have capitalized on" against Larva?

Rain had the games 110% in the bag by having map control, an insurmountable economic and army advantage, and control of all the remaining expansion sites. But instead of taking them, putting cannons, ht, reavers and so forth at them, and simply waiting for Larva to mine out, he went allin trying to break Larva.

It was reckless because the upside of the attacks, if they worked, was winning a won game slightly sooner. Whereas the downside, if they failed, was potentially losing the game.

Well, maybe we can translate this into Korean and send to Rain because he probably thinks it wasn't that close. Hell, he might even thank you for pointing out his mistakes.

I have no doubt that Rain has already been told as much by anyone he has asked for feedback.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 19:27:56
October 22 2017 19:03 GMT
#34
Imagine a TvP in which the Terran opened one base wallin into siege tanks and missile turrets above their ramp. If the Protoss were to go one base mass dragoons trying to break that would you ask that I applaud the Terran's sick holds? And if the Protoss were to keep attacking in the same futile way while the Terran slowly massed battlecruisers, would you insist that I focus more on what the Terran was doing right than the Protoss was doing wrong?

Larva got himself into a position with no map control, a smaller army, a weaker economy, and basically no chance of turning games 3 and 4 into a victory without serious help from his opponent. Take game 3. Larva had two mining bases, no map control, a smaller army, and no control over any of the untaken bases. Then Rain decided to recall most of his army up to a high ground with no resources where the only exit was down a narrow ramp into mass sunkens, and leave them up there for the entire rest of the game. Larva didn't trick him into doing that. Larva didn't kill his arbiters to prevent him from recalling them back down. Larva didn't put scourge to stop shuttles evacuating Rain's army. Rain decided that he needed to put his army where the resources weren't and leave it up there.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Netto.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Poland523 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 19:41:38
October 22 2017 19:32 GMT
#35
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.


Middle expansions on Gold Rush are very very open. So if Rain sat back on 200/200 trying to secure them, he would only give Larva time to grow his army. Larva wasn't asleep during the game, he also didn't go grab a coffee, so he would quickly realize that Rain backed off. It would give Larva an opportuinity to close gap in supply (he wouldn't need to spend resources on defense and larvae on scourges/drones) and to plague Rains whole 200/200. With defilers, zerglings and lurkers it would be VERY VERY easy for Larva to overrun those widely open middle expansions if Rain sat back on 200/200 and waited for him. Especially considering zergs 200/200 is much scarier than protoss 200/200.

Therefore I think Rain made good decision to try and break Larva. He played very well, almost winning this game. Larvas control was slightly better, so he was able to shut down Rains harassment and come on top. It doesn't mean that Rain played badly. It also doesn't mean Rain should quit playing StarCraft. If you say something like that about ASL ro8 player, then you are not any different from typical twitch chat hater/troll.

When you analyze this game, please take into consideration that there were 2 people playing in this game.

Edit: Also one more thing. When Rain recalled into Larva's base, only expansions on Larva side of the map weren't secured. So you think that Rain would be better trying to secure these instead of putting pressure and prevent Larva from taking them? :D
Be the change you want to see in the world.
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 19:44:28
October 22 2017 19:39 GMT
#36
On October 22 2017 23:08 letian wrote:
The battle report basically can be summed up by "Rain, you played bad because you didn't win". If this is what you want, you're in the right place I guess.

On October 23 2017 03:47 letian wrote:
It's pretty simple. This is not a personal blog (in which case it would be totally ok) but a community site.

Anyone else with his 5 cents on how Rain played poorly because he didn't win?

I don't see where the "Rain played poorly because he didn't win" is coming from.

I sympathize with your comment on how this is an official recap and not a personal blog; and Kwark could have been more professional in how he criticized Rain, which certainly could have facilitated a more civilized and objective discussion instead of turning some people off completely and writing off the analysis as rubbish.
I personally found the harshness a little entertaining.

On October 23 2017 04:32 Netto. wrote:
Especially considering zergs 200/200 is much scarier than protoss 200/200.

Therefore I think Rain made good decision to try and break Larva.

Okay Kwark, just for the sake of improving my understanding of PvZ, please tell me whether the aforementioned statements are true or not. Well, probably just the first one, we all already know what you think of the second.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
xccam
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Great Britain1150 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 19:50:51
October 22 2017 19:50 GMT
#37
[QUOTE]On October 23 2017 04:39 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 22 2017 23:08 letian wrote:

[QUOTE]On October 23 2017 04:32 Netto. wrote:
Especially considering zergs 200/200 is much scarier than protoss 200/200.

Therefore I think Rain made good decision to try and break Larva.[/QUOTE]
Okay Kwark, just for the sake of improving my understanding of PvZ, please tell me whether the aforementioned statements are true or not. Well, probably just the first one, we all already know what you think of the second.[/QUOTE]

In an open field, yes zerg's 200/200 full tech army is scarier.

When it comes to defending however protoss top tech (dark archons, reavers and templar sat on cannons) is almost unbreakable by zerg. If you are sat on 200/200 as protoss, you generally have nothing to gain from zerg catching up.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 22 2017 20:12 GMT
#38
200/200 pvz really depends on composition. A ridiculous pvz army with archons, dark archons, ht, some reavers is quite hard to deal with, but to build up that kind of army is... pretty rare and difficult, and still vulnerable to mass guardians.

200/200 mass zealots vs like, 150/200 hydralurker is gonna get slaughtered though.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 20:45:28
October 22 2017 20:44 GMT
#39
On October 22 2017 18:57 Heartland wrote:
My god this was a big post. Maybe you should have considered splitting it in two? It was a very nice set of battlereports and good info on the Bisu/Killer game too!

Our coverage typically includes recap of games played, preview of upcoming groups and another section like a BR etc... It's been that way since before I joined staff so chances of that changing is low. I wrote about this in my 20k blog if you want more info. I can always ask KwarK to be more concise with the recaps but I think having indepth recaps is always great ^^
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
pinkbowtie1
Profile Joined September 2017
23 Posts
October 22 2017 21:36 GMT
#40
On October 23 2017 04:03 KwarK wrote:
Imagine a TvP in which the Terran opened one base wallin into siege tanks and missile turrets above their ramp. If the Protoss were to go one base mass dragoons trying to break that would you ask that I applaud the Terran's sick holds? And if the Protoss were to keep attacking in the same futile way while the Terran slowly massed battlecruisers, would you insist that I focus more on what the Terran was doing right than the Protoss was doing wrong?

Larva got himself into a position with no map control, a smaller army, a weaker economy, and basically no chance of turning games 3 and 4 into a victory without serious help from his opponent. Take game 3. Larva had two mining bases, no map control, a smaller army, and no control over any of the untaken bases. Then Rain decided to recall most of his army up to a high ground with no resources where the only exit was down a narrow ramp into mass sunkens, and leave them up there for the entire rest of the game. Larva didn't trick him into doing that. Larva didn't kill his arbiters to prevent him from recalling them back down. Larva didn't put scourge to stop shuttles evacuating Rain's army. Rain decided that he needed to put his army where the resources weren't and leave it up there.


Regardless of the actual analysis, half the problem we have is the way things were written, extremely biased (in a bad way) towards rain, with comments like "Quit Starcraft. Really."

I'm sure you'd agree that was overkill.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 23:02:30
October 22 2017 23:01 GMT
#41
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.


Rain did not play poorly.

Kwark's analysis seems centered on the idea that with Rain up bases or even bases all he had to do was defend and win. I couldn't disagree more. I've posted it before, but I'll post again because it's highly relevant:

Bisu vs Larva (11:30)


This game has Larva go quickly down from serious mistakes, unable to make units and forced to sunken heavily. By the time he can even consider moving out Bisu has a full six functional bases to Larva's four. Without Larva ever killing or preventing a Bisu base, Larva is still able to pull the game out; from a SIX base protoss against his 4. Not just that...the best protoss of all.

Rain wasn't attacking because he doesn't know how to play PvZ, he was attacking primarily because he knows that he can't hope to win a longer game against a man that can defend like that.

Those attacks by Rain only look stupid because Kwark's erroneous thinking that Rain could just sit back and "be ahead" against Larva. On even bases Rain never wins. Those busts aren't very good odds, and usually end in disaster; but Rain clearly understands that he has a better chance of breaking Larva before he is absolutely entrenched than letting Larva secure his defense and max unit supply.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 23:17:37
October 22 2017 23:17 GMT
#42
Thus explaining why he recalled his entire army onto a mined out island and left it there.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
October 22 2017 23:26 GMT
#43
lol Kwark. I already mentioned this before but it's likely he wanted to siege the sunkens from the high ground and bust that from the front at the same time, thus granting him access to Larva's 3 o'clock base from the side. I think he made a control mistake and the plan kinda failed. Notice how he kept attacking the base at 3 and 6 because he realized that he needs to stop those 2 from mining to win. He took out the 3 at least once then Larva entrenched himself (don't recall if he killed it more).
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
_Animus_
Profile Joined February 2011
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 23:40:52
October 22 2017 23:38 GMT
#44
On October 23 2017 08:01 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.


Rain did not play poorly.

Kwark's analysis seems centered on the idea that with Rain up bases or even bases all he had to do was defend and win. I couldn't disagree more. I've posted it before, but I'll post again because it's highly relevant:

Bisu vs Larva (11:30)
https://youtu.be/crW-p67Sl7M?t=681

This game has Larva go quickly down from serious mistakes, unable to make units and forced to sunken heavily. By the time he can even consider moving out Bisu has a full six functional bases to Larva's four. Without Larva ever killing or preventing a Bisu base, Larva is still able to pull the game out; from a SIX base protoss against his 4. Not just that...the best protoss of all.

Rain wasn't attacking because he doesn't know how to play PvZ, he was attacking primarily because he knows that he can't hope to win a longer game against a man that can defend like that.

Those attacks by Rain only look stupid because Kwark's erroneous thinking that Rain could just sit back and "be ahead" against Larva. On even bases Rain never wins. Those busts aren't very good odds, and usually end in disaster; but Rain clearly understands that he has a better chance of breaking Larva before he is absolutely entrenched than letting Larva secure his defense and max unit supply.

In my point of view KwarK is right about what he say. when larva was aggressive Rain held it perfectly fine, so i see no problem for him to continue in the same way.
I saw very good play from larva in this video, but also saw a sloppy play by bisu, he didnt care for way too much shuttles full of reavers. However it was the same scenario as larva vs rain, Larva did nothing to Bisu expanding all over the place, while Bisu made so many futile attacks. I want to see what will happen if he plays the way KwarK said.
Again looking at this, Arbiters are looking to me as the better solution, just hallucinate the arbiter and go for recall.
Luv ya BroodWar!
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 22 2017 23:52 GMT
#45
On October 23 2017 08:17 KwarK wrote:
Thus explaining why he recalled his entire army onto a mined out island and left it there.


A few possibilities:

1) Bad decision
2) Wanted to get key tech structures. I know the pool was there, possibly mound and/or spire + hive
3) Wanted to draw Larva's attention there in hopes of making harass/arbiters succeed elsewhere, especially when attention goes there
4) Combination of #2 and #3
5) Something I'm not clever enough to think of but a player like Rain might be

I really think it was a combination of #2 and #3. I think it would have worked as well if he hadn't got another arbiter scourged shortly thereafter (probably part of why he left it there). In all honesty, I think leaving it there didn't turn out too poorly for him, Larva really wanted to get rid of that army, and had significant trouble doing so; in what was one of his moments of what I saw as pretty poor execution in that game. Larva threw a significant number of units at that ball, whitting it down very slowly.

Would it have been better to recall 3' or 6'? Yes, absolutely. However, Larva had already scouted the arbiter tech, and had been defending very well the entire game. I suspect Rain thought his arbiter would just end up being scourged if he had tried to hit either of those bases, and/or that he would recall onto turtled lurker defense.

In my mind, when I go through Rain's decisions, especially considered imperfect information; there seems to be clear and present lines of reasoning for why he made the choices and did, and why he shyed away from others.

If four base Larva can end up beating Bisu on six bases (and I've seen games like this MANY times from Larva), I really don't think the assumption that Rain can just defend and turtle to secure the win really holds up. This is especially true when you consider Rain plays his best when he is playing an aggressive, macro oriented style that sacrifices a little efficiency in frontal assaults for creating harass opportunities.

That assumption if basically the cause of my disagreement with your analysis of the games. If Rain could just sit back and win the games defending, then I'd be in almost total agreement with what you wrote. However, I feel like Larva is almost impossible to beat in drawn out lategames, given his incredible defending ability and that Rain is likely to lose such games even playing from what we would consider as an advantageous protoss position. Combine that with Larva's tendency to lose being in that first perhaps 8-20 minutes of the game, and Rain being the best at the aggressive, harass oriented macro; it's not for me to understand why Rain tried what he did. We already saw that with a lesser zerg like Jaedong (pains me to write that) Rain did fine. It was only when faced with Larva's and SK's impeccable defense that he was made to look foolish.

It's also worth noting that aggressive play is VERY much like that. When you play highly aggressive you usually look like a stubborn moron when you lost, and rather brilliant when you when.

In terms of your analysis the bottom line for me is that I believe it's far too harsh on Rain, and extremely lacking in praise for what was some very, very good zerg play from Larva minues some really bad blunders here and there. Larva felt like he would be brilliant for 3,5, maybe 10 minutes at a time, then do something stupid; then be brilliant again. Those mistakes might have cost him against a protoss like Bisu.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 22 2017 23:56 GMT
#46
On October 23 2017 08:38 _Animus_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 08:01 L_Master wrote:
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.


Rain did not play poorly.

Kwark's analysis seems centered on the idea that with Rain up bases or even bases all he had to do was defend and win. I couldn't disagree more. I've posted it before, but I'll post again because it's highly relevant:

Bisu vs Larva (11:30)
https://youtu.be/crW-p67Sl7M?t=681

This game has Larva go quickly down from serious mistakes, unable to make units and forced to sunken heavily. By the time he can even consider moving out Bisu has a full six functional bases to Larva's four. Without Larva ever killing or preventing a Bisu base, Larva is still able to pull the game out; from a SIX base protoss against his 4. Not just that...the best protoss of all.

Rain wasn't attacking because he doesn't know how to play PvZ, he was attacking primarily because he knows that he can't hope to win a longer game against a man that can defend like that.

Those attacks by Rain only look stupid because Kwark's erroneous thinking that Rain could just sit back and "be ahead" against Larva. On even bases Rain never wins. Those busts aren't very good odds, and usually end in disaster; but Rain clearly understands that he has a better chance of breaking Larva before he is absolutely entrenched than letting Larva secure his defense and max unit supply.

In my point of view KwarK is right about what he say. when larva was aggressive Rain held it perfectly fine, so i see no problem for him to continue in the same way.
I saw very good play from larva in this video, but also saw a sloppy play by bisu, he didnt care for way too much shuttles full of reavers. However it was the same scenario as larva vs rain, Larva did nothing to Bisu expanding all over the place, while Bisu made so many futile attacks. I want to see what will happen if he plays the way KwarK said.
Again looking at this, Arbiters are looking to me as the better solution, just hallucinate the arbiter and go for recall.


This is where ALOT of the disagreement comes from. These shuttles are not sloppy play at all in my opinion. I think there is a strong tendency to attribute, except in the case of an obvious baller micro moment, a mistake in aggression to the aggressor himself, especially when it comes to the loss of a valuable unit.

It looks sloppy because Larva's defense is so spot on in this case. Aggressive play well defended always looks bad.


EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 23 2017 00:19 GMT
#47
Larva made him pay for choosing and eliminating a weak Jaedong.
I don't know which I want more, Larva vs. Flash or Larva vs. Bisu
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 23 2017 00:28 GMT
#48
On October 23 2017 09:19 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Larva made him pay for choosing and eliminating a weak Jaedong.
I don't know which I want more, Larva vs. Flash or Larva vs. Bisu


Larva v Bisu would probably be the better series in all likelihood. Larva vs FlaSh has the potential for some great games, but as well prepared and good as FlaSh is in series play; I expect him to come with some great builds and generally disrupt Larva.

I think Larva's got a fighting shot at pushing FlaSh...but I'm still expecting a solid 3-1 or 3-0 from FlaSh v Larva. Bisu vs Larva would be surprise to see a 3-0 in either direction.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-23 00:35:57
October 23 2017 00:34 GMT
#49
On October 23 2017 08:56 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 08:38 _Animus_ wrote:
On October 23 2017 08:01 L_Master wrote:
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.


Rain did not play poorly.

Kwark's analysis seems centered on the idea that with Rain up bases or even bases all he had to do was defend and win. I couldn't disagree more. I've posted it before, but I'll post again because it's highly relevant:

Bisu vs Larva (11:30)
https://youtu.be/crW-p67Sl7M?t=681

This game has Larva go quickly down from serious mistakes, unable to make units and forced to sunken heavily. By the time he can even consider moving out Bisu has a full six functional bases to Larva's four. Without Larva ever killing or preventing a Bisu base, Larva is still able to pull the game out; from a SIX base protoss against his 4. Not just that...the best protoss of all.

Rain wasn't attacking because he doesn't know how to play PvZ, he was attacking primarily because he knows that he can't hope to win a longer game against a man that can defend like that.

Those attacks by Rain only look stupid because Kwark's erroneous thinking that Rain could just sit back and "be ahead" against Larva. On even bases Rain never wins. Those busts aren't very good odds, and usually end in disaster; but Rain clearly understands that he has a better chance of breaking Larva before he is absolutely entrenched than letting Larva secure his defense and max unit supply.

In my point of view KwarK is right about what he say. when larva was aggressive Rain held it perfectly fine, so i see no problem for him to continue in the same way.
I saw very good play from larva in this video, but also saw a sloppy play by bisu, he didnt care for way too much shuttles full of reavers. However it was the same scenario as larva vs rain, Larva did nothing to Bisu expanding all over the place, while Bisu made so many futile attacks. I want to see what will happen if he plays the way KwarK said.
Again looking at this, Arbiters are looking to me as the better solution, just hallucinate the arbiter and go for recall.


This is where ALOT of the disagreement comes from. These shuttles are not sloppy play at all in my opinion. I think there is a strong tendency to attribute, except in the case of an obvious baller micro moment, a mistake in aggression to the aggressor himself, especially when it comes to the loss of a valuable unit.

It looks sloppy because Larva's defense is so spot on in this case. Aggressive play well defended always looks bad.

No I think this was a source of confusion.

The real disagreement is whether Rain is ahead or not; whether he needed to break Larva or not.

Kwark was extremely critical of Rain’s drops because he deems them unnecesary and executed without forethought. His opinion is that Rain already had an insurmountable advantage.

You think the drops and attacks are necessary because Rain cannot afford to not break Larva. Your opinion is that Rain loses if he leaves Larva alone.

You are completely correct that it is very easy to fall into the trap of judging an attack to be sloppy simply based on its outcome. Kwark may seem like he is doing exactly this but I do not believe that is the case. There is just a very vast difference in your opinions on who is ahead at the time.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-23 00:41:49
October 23 2017 00:38 GMT
#50
On October 23 2017 08:52 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 08:17 KwarK wrote:
Thus explaining why he recalled his entire army onto a mined out island and left it there.


A few possibilities:

1) Bad decision
2) Wanted to get key tech structures. I know the pool was there, possibly mound and/or spire + hive
3) Wanted to draw Larva's attention there in hopes of making harass/arbiters succeed elsewhere, especially when attention goes there
4) Combination of #2 and #3
5) Something I'm not clever enough to think of but a player like Rain might be

I really think it was a combination of #2 and #3. I think it would have worked as well if he hadn't got another arbiter scourged shortly thereafter (probably part of why he left it there). In all honesty, I think leaving it there didn't turn out too poorly for him, Larva really wanted to get rid of that army, and had significant trouble doing so; in what was one of his moments of what I saw as pretty poor execution in that game. Larva threw a significant number of units at that ball, whitting it down very slowly.

Would it have been better to recall 3' or 6'? Yes, absolutely. However, Larva had already scouted the arbiter tech, and had been defending very well the entire game. I suspect Rain thought his arbiter would just end up being scourged if he had tried to hit either of those bases, and/or that he would recall onto turtled lurker defense.

In my mind, when I go through Rain's decisions, especially considered imperfect information; there seems to be clear and present lines of reasoning for why he made the choices and did, and why he shyed away from others.

If four base Larva can end up beating Bisu on six bases (and I've seen games like this MANY times from Larva), I really don't think the assumption that Rain can just defend and turtle to secure the win really holds up. This is especially true when you consider Rain plays his best when he is playing an aggressive, macro oriented style that sacrifices a little efficiency in frontal assaults for creating harass opportunities.

That assumption if basically the cause of my disagreement with your analysis of the games. If Rain could just sit back and win the games defending, then I'd be in almost total agreement with what you wrote. However, I feel like Larva is almost impossible to beat in drawn out lategames, given his incredible defending ability and that Rain is likely to lose such games even playing from what we would consider as an advantageous protoss position. Combine that with Larva's tendency to lose being in that first perhaps 8-20 minutes of the game, and Rain being the best at the aggressive, harass oriented macro; it's not for me to understand why Rain tried what he did. We already saw that with a lesser zerg like Jaedong (pains me to write that) Rain did fine. It was only when faced with Larva's and SK's impeccable defense that he was made to look foolish.

It's also worth noting that aggressive play is VERY much like that. When you play highly aggressive you usually look like a stubborn moron when you lost, and rather brilliant when you when.

In terms of your analysis the bottom line for me is that I believe it's far too harsh on Rain, and extremely lacking in praise for what was some very, very good zerg play from Larva minues some really bad blunders here and there. Larva felt like he would be brilliant for 3,5, maybe 10 minutes at a time, then do something stupid; then be brilliant again. Those mistakes might have cost him against a protoss like Bisu.

I could be wrong but my recollection is that only one hat, a pool, and the spire were at that base. And that rather than contest the recalled army Larva happily forfeited the base. His only response was to use a few longs to scout for plague and try to scourge the arbiter once.

What it came down to all game is that what the actual objectives were and what Rain fought over had basically no overlap. A recall at 6, with a probe following to secure it, potentially game winning. The recalled army becomes a garrison denying Larva a key expansion. A recall at 12 is just inexplicable to me unless he recalls back out straight after.

When controlling the middle and those last expansions was everything Rain voluntarily put all his units on an island and left them out of the deciding fights.

Overall I think the kindest defence is the one Tasteless gave him while trying to explain his repeated throwing of his army into a fortified position. It's possible that his macro is so good that against most players on ladder he just easily converts his advantage into a won game by doing these attacks. And so he didn't really understand a need not to just immediately go allin while ahead because usually he doesn't get punished for it. But he was choosing to allin from ahead, and that's beneath his skill level.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-23 00:39:06
October 23 2017 00:38 GMT
#51
I cant take any writing seriously when it hinges on pro players not understanding the game...

Rain had this game won for 20 straight minutes if he could just work out that there was nothing he could do about Larva's first four bases, and nothing that he needed to do about them. Rain was starving Larva, not the other way around, but he seemed to be completely unaware that he had already won the game. It was just sad. Apparently Rain has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ when macro alone isn't enough.


Apparently, one of the best players in the world is actually a fucking moron who doesnt understand basic starcraft BUT!! he was also ahead and winning for most of the game because hes JUST THAT FUCKING GOOD!

k...
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 23 2017 00:58 GMT
#52
On October 23 2017 09:38 Dazed. wrote:
I cant take any writing seriously when it hinges on pro players not understanding the game...

Show nested quote +
Rain had this game won for 20 straight minutes if he could just work out that there was nothing he could do about Larva's first four bases, and nothing that he needed to do about them. Rain was starving Larva, not the other way around, but he seemed to be completely unaware that he had already won the game. It was just sad. Apparently Rain has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ when macro alone isn't enough.


Apparently, one of the best players in the world is actually a fucking moron who doesnt understand basic starcraft BUT!! he was also ahead and winning for most of the game because hes JUST THAT FUCKING GOOD!

k...

Care to offer a rival explanation for his allin attacks from ahead? If you disagree that he was throwing the game accidentally, are you implying that he did it deliberately?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Ty2
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1434 Posts
October 23 2017 00:58 GMT
#53
--- Nuked ---
Writer
SirGlinG
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden933 Posts
October 23 2017 01:35 GMT
#54
On October 23 2017 09:19 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Larva made him pay for choosing and eliminating a weak Jaedong.
I don't know which I want more, Larva vs. Flash or Larva vs. Bisu


If Bisu takes down Flash then I want Bisu to take it all.

If Flash takes out Bisu then I want Larva to take it all.

It's just a better story like that. Much better than "Oh FUck yeah Bisu played at the top of his skill and it was enough to win a series vs Flash. He's the best! Fuck yeah! Oh fuck! he lost the finals to Larva. Who's the best? Hmmmm blablaa who's the best ZvP and who's the best PvT and who's the best ZvT?"

I want one straight up champion and I want it to be Bisu.

Would be nice to see Larva take it though, after all the Tesagi-talk, "What can Zerg do against such reckless mech?". All the new people who never experienced the natural change of meta and top players, only knows of a deus ex machina in the shape of a company called Blizzard and their patches.
Not my chair. Not my problem. That's what I say
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
October 23 2017 01:36 GMT
#55
Word from the wise Artosis, when you are ahead, get more ahead! Get another base!

But ya....it hard to tell when you are ahead especially on that weird map where zerg can expand to the side. Also being a some what zerg favored map made Rain probably felt pressure to do something. Considering that he was maxed out and the zerg army was some what split, it seemed logical to think he could break the zerg
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
SirGlinG
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden933 Posts
October 23 2017 02:15 GMT
#56
On October 23 2017 10:36 SheaR619 wrote:
Word from the wise Artosis, when you are ahead, get more ahead! Get another base!

But ya....it hard to tell when you are ahead especially on that weird map where zerg can expand to the side. Also being a some what zerg favored map made Rain probably felt pressure to do something. Considering that he was maxed out and the zerg army was some what split, it seemed logical to think he could break the zerg


Yeah. And the playstyle Rain has developed is a very aggressive one. That's his usual way to go about things, VS a Zerg with strong macro who wants long games that seems like a reasonable thought.

He should have mixed it up after some point though. At least move his army towards Larvas main to force him to making more sunkens below as well. Treat it a bit like a TvZ like that. Go for another elevator. or multipronged attacks or slowpush.

Overall I'm thinking that Protoss should go sair reaver whenever Larva does stuff like that. Slow push his sunken societys, keep air control to be able to keep his shuttles and reavers safe and possibly elevate.
Not my chair. Not my problem. That's what I say
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
October 23 2017 02:57 GMT
#57
Only logical reason I see him recalling to the main was because he figured it was the least defended place and he was correct. He destroy a hive, spire and pool for basically free. I think where he messed up is that he sent half his army down south for no reason. He should of recalled out, or committed to breaking the zerg natural attacking from the high ground and front to secure that mineral expansion by the zerg natural. Sending half that army down south achieve nothing and was a bad call considering he lost his shuttle which slowed him down for having to baby sit his reavers.

But ya I think reaver and sairs push wouldof been better as well
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 23 2017 03:06 GMT
#58
Or at least some sairs, enough to protect his shuttles and arbs.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 23 2017 03:31 GMT
#59
On October 23 2017 12:06 KwarK wrote:
Or at least some sairs, enough to protect his shuttles and arbs.


This was probably the oddest/worst seeming thing, especially given Larva's use of primarily scourge. All I can think is that he may have been low on gas because he was dropping alot of templar + archon/temp in army + arbiters. That does eat gas.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 23 2017 04:42 GMT
#60
Good read all in all, at least better than the previous reviews.
Larva and hero article were nice and in depth, while Bisu preview was meh and Flash preview predictable.
I notice certain biased towards Larva though, as a result of bias for Rain maybe?

I can't wait for the last Ro8 match tomorrow.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
October 23 2017 07:24 GMT
#61
On October 23 2017 08:01 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 02:18 Ganfei2 wrote:
I think Kwark's analysis is entirely right. Also, enough with the tired argument that a commentator cannot possibly assess what a progamer did wrong in a game. No, Kwark doesn't need to translate it to Korean and send it to Rain. Think about how silly that statement is. Rain did play poorly. Progamers aren't infallible beings.

Anyone with an understanding of what they're watching would be throwing their hands up asking why Rain is suiciding 200/200 armies into huge static defense against a Zerg that is doing nothing but turtling, while the P has complete map control, a huge supply advantage, and untaken expansions all over the place. Rain's play reminded me of my own, i.e. impatience is my greatest weakness.

The "quit starcraft" etc. comments are a bit much but I don't think it's serious. I assume Rain will learn from his mistakes. I have no doubt he's analyzed the replays and come to many of the same conclusions that Kwark himself did.


Rain did not play poorly.

Kwark's analysis seems centered on the idea that with Rain up bases or even bases all he had to do was defend and win. I couldn't disagree more. I've posted it before, but I'll post again because it's highly relevant:

Bisu vs Larva (11:30)
https://youtu.be/crW-p67Sl7M?t=681

This game has Larva go quickly down from serious mistakes, unable to make units and forced to sunken heavily. By the time he can even consider moving out Bisu has a full six functional bases to Larva's four. Without Larva ever killing or preventing a Bisu base, Larva is still able to pull the game out; from a SIX base protoss against his 4. Not just that...the best protoss of all.

Rain wasn't attacking because he doesn't know how to play PvZ, he was attacking primarily because he knows that he can't hope to win a longer game against a man that can defend like that.

Those attacks by Rain only look stupid because Kwark's erroneous thinking that Rain could just sit back and "be ahead" against Larva. On even bases Rain never wins. Those busts aren't very good odds, and usually end in disaster; but Rain clearly understands that he has a better chance of breaking Larva before he is absolutely entrenched than letting Larva secure his defense and max unit supply.



I'd actually nerdgasm if bisu had MC'd the SCV and made a few tanks in that game.
Hi.
Murchaldo
Profile Joined August 2017
18 Posts
October 23 2017 08:47 GMT
#62
While I do agree that Rain had advantages in game 3 and 4, and that his poor decision making when it came to what to do with his army lost him those games, I still would have liked more attention drawn to Larva's defense in the write-up. Rain often tries to drop while attacking, and throughout the entire series, Larva only let one drop do significant damage. He always had scourge in the right place, he always had his drones pulled, and if he was even SLIGHTLY worse at it, Rain's decision making wouldn't have mattered.

Whether you agree with my point of view or not, (Maybe you think that Larva's defense was unimpressive, that's your prerogative) I still think the write-up was too vicious at points, and focused far too much on one single player in a two person match.
yOngKIN
Profile Joined May 2012
Korea (North)656 Posts
October 23 2017 09:22 GMT
#63
It's unfortunate the Larva's brilliancy is being reduced as a bad game from rain.
As someone else said, the battle report can be summarized as "Rain lost, Rain is a bad player" with a few uncalled for insults. I try to understand this as the writers frustration that the player he wants to win lost the game, I don't know.

But I will try to explain the problem with his observation. The maps heavily favor turtling as there are naturals in the back and the center mineral fields can easily be weaved together once the army produced by the initial 3 hatch base is up. This is the main reason Larva always went for the quick second natural and mass sunken macro hatch sim city. Even at even base counts, Larva is under no great pressure since he can simply grow his army while ensuring he defends from drops, and keeps an eye on strategic areas of the map. Once the econ kicks in, he can trade lings, hydras, and lurkers and expand two more bases and turtle up some more. For a player like Larva, who was baptized in fire in ZvP by Bisu, this is a huge advantage.

This is the reason why Rain felt the need to stop Larva from getting bigger and stronger. The repeated attack to the natural was necessary, as it does a double purpose of letting in the actual game crucial maneuver of dropping HTs and DTs to kill workers. Unfortunately for Rain, both his natural harass and drop failed. And this has to be said, Rain made like 20 drop attempts all series, and I think only one accomplished anything. His shuttles were either scourged in transit, or the drones were all gone long before any damage could be made.

There was no point in the game during the exchanges where Rain could have felt he was winning, even with 100% map control. This is an easy miscalculation committed by the writer as it did in fact seem to be winning already for Rain. But even in that engagement where Rain ended up with 50+ supply advantage, Larva was still pumping out of 4-5 bases, and Rain, when he did manage to successfully harass the workers, did so in the most useless of bases.

There were a few errors from both side but it is inaccurate to say Rain is a bad player. With Larva's almost impeccable play that series, or everytime he plays ZvP, Rain has to go for momentum and cannot, as the writer said, just wait until Larva starved.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-23 13:44:47
October 23 2017 13:38 GMT
#64
I disagree with the assessment that Larva had room to grow if Rain had focused on denying Larva a 5th and maintaining map control, rather than trying to break Larva when he was on four bases. Take the Fighting Spirit game for example. Larva needed to take a 5th on a high ground to be even remotely competitive that game, and as anyone who has played on Fighting Spirit will tell you, those high grounds are damn near impossible to take off of a Protoss with a late game army because cannons don't cost supply and are fucking bullshit while high templar storm works perfectly against dark swarm.

Larva was good enough to hold on against Rain's constant macro attacks for two of their games, unlike (I'm assuming) the majority of practice partners Rain had (because logically if Rain had been losing all of his games in practice by throwing mass zealots at lurkers then he wouldn't still be doing it). But he wasn't good enough to not fall seriously behind. Take a look at 18 minutes in to game 4, after the storm and dt play. Larva is dead. 110% dead. Neither player deserved to win that game because both players got beaten thoroughly by Rain.

Edit: Also as much as I am arguing my point here, I completely welcome all the disagreement I'm getting in the comment section. You're all bw fans and I'm glad we care enough to disagree on the tournament we're all watching.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
yOngKIN
Profile Joined May 2012
Korea (North)656 Posts
October 23 2017 15:26 GMT
#65
On October 23 2017 22:38 KwarK wrote:
I disagree with the assessment that Larva had room to grow if Rain had focused on denying Larva a 5th and maintaining map control, rather than trying to break Larva when he was on four bases. Take the Fighting Spirit game for example. Larva needed to take a 5th on a high ground to be even remotely competitive that game, and as anyone who has played on Fighting Spirit will tell you, those high grounds are damn near impossible to take off of a Protoss with a late game army because cannons don't cost supply and are fucking bullshit while high templar storm works perfectly against dark swarm.

Larva was good enough to hold on against Rain's constant macro attacks for two of their games, unlike (I'm assuming) the majority of practice partners Rain had (because logically if Rain had been losing all of his games in practice by throwing mass zealots at lurkers then he wouldn't still be doing it). But he wasn't good enough to not fall seriously behind. Take a look at 18 minutes in to game 4, after the storm and dt play. Larva is dead. 110% dead. Neither player deserved to win that game because both players got beaten thoroughly by Rain.

Edit: Also as much as I am arguing my point here, I completely welcome all the disagreement I'm getting in the comment section. You're all bw fans and I'm glad we care enough to disagree on the tournament we're all watching.

First, the edit part is a given. Anyone who disagrees with that does not even deserve to be in the discussion. Thanks for your enthusiasm for the game we all love as well, regardless of our disagreements.

So now, I rewatched game 4 upon your suggestion, specifically 18 mins onwards. Here's what happened:
- HT drops at nat (@10), kills 10+ workers
- DTs in the main (@11), another 8 or so workers killed
- Rain cleans up harass at his third (@3), lost 2 or 3 probes at most
- Reinforcement lings from 2nd nat (@7) and drones get ambushed in the middle of the map
- Larva reharasses @3 expo, loses 12+ lings, kills 3+ zealots and no probes
- At this point, Rain has a 50+ supply advantage, and has a 5th base underway vs. Larva's 3 bases
- Rain goes for the kill @10, 60+ supply worth of zealots, goons, archons, ht, and obs
- Larva is losing, but expertly spore-snipes obs and wall with lurker eggs to make Rain hesistate
- Rain could have muscled through even without obs, but it was a good conservative decision to wait for reinfrocement
- Rain abandons @11 and goes to check on @6, nothing there.
- HT drop @7 was semi successful
- Meanwhile, Larva destroys @5, while secures 5th base @9
- Rain counter drops @8 is very mildly successful, and easily eliminated
- Rain reclaims @5
- While Larva continues budget guerilla tactics with pure lings trading for goons and hts and reavers
- Supply almost even now
- Rain goes for the bust @10 again, lings snipe ht and scorge snipe obs
- While Larva fails to destroy @5 again
- Back @10, Rain has more muscle now than the first bust, Archons, Goons, and Zealots kill static defense
- Larva gets swarm on time, flanks Rain on both sides with lurker lings
- Larva secures @12, and now has plague
- Rains shuttle drops all fail now due to great scourge defense and map mobility
- Engagements continue for a bit, but Larva is too strong now, Rain GGs

My take away from this is:
1. Rain didn't make any type of mistake that would make him a bad player
2. His mistake at the first nat bust was crucial, but an understandable judgment call since he has no obs and he knows about Larva's shenanigans
3. Larva recovered by going ling guerilla attack, using the saved resources to stack on defense and secure @7 and @8
4. Rain's other glaring mistake is not going for the bust again immediately when he had his reinforcement, instead going for the safe expo @5, and maybe @6 (which never happened)
5. Larva won the game with impeccable obs snipe, drop denial after the first few ones killed many of his workers, and wise army trade that weakened and delayed Rain's decisive push.

This is why me and others here take exception to your conclusion that Rain played badly. He did all the things he should do in order to win, only that Larva played much much better. The issue now boils down to the supposedly game-ending bust. Should he have continued without obs? My suspicion is that after seeing Larva's approach in the first 3 games, Rain was wary of ambush lurkers especially that Larva has only been showing lings in the open all game, and wanted to get ahead in bases and roll over the next big push. Unfortunately for him, none of his drops worked anymore, his 5th never got relevant in the game, and the many HT and Archon snipes delayed him to the point that Larva was stonger when Rain was finally ready for his big attack.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 23 2017 15:44 GMT
#66
There isn't any upside to going for the kill in that situation. From where Rain is sitting Larva's win condition depends on taking map control to take the key expansions, which he can't do from his position. Drops lose vs fortified Protoss bases and although 200/200 Zerg can kinda trade against maxed Protoss in the middle, once reavers and archons are out in force it's not easy, and certainly not when the Protoss has a stronger economy and enough gates to simply remax. Either way, Larva didn't have 200/200 and wasn't anywhere near.

Maybe it's a style thing but when I was playing fairly high level (for a non Korean at least) PvZ on Fighting Spirit I'd pretty much never attack a four base Zerg. I didn't see the point. He has to come out at some point and if the map is already mined out by the time he does, while I'm sitting on 10k/10k bank, that's fine by me. But if I did decide I needed to do the killing stroke, I'd do it with either a slow reaver push or recall. Never trying to break mass lurkers with mass zealots, which is what Rain tried over and over.

At 18 minutes Rain could have triple expanded to 9, 12, and 6, and spammed cannons, a gateway, and a robo for reavers at each of them. Instead he played the way Larva wanted him to. On a resource heavy map if my opponent commits everything they have into static defences holding one corner of it, I typically like to just leave them there. Sunkens don't have infinite range, they only work if you move your army to where the sunkens are. You can just choose not to do that, and suddenly the sunkens can't hurt you.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
October 23 2017 16:03 GMT
#67
Honestly, Rain should've just taken the double gas middle in some of the games. His army was just sitting there anyways.
Sweet.
yOngKIN
Profile Joined May 2012
Korea (North)656 Posts
October 23 2017 16:05 GMT
#68
There isn't any upside to going for the kill in that situation.

His fear was more about unknown response once he goes all in blind, and not an upside-downside analysis.

At 18 minutes Rain could have triple expanded to 9, 12, and 6

Which he tried to do and failed, and cost him the game. 9? You mean 5? 9 is out of the question, he'll be flanked on all sides way before and lose his nexus and army.

Leaving Z alone midgame on 3+ bases as P might work at B and even A class players, but foolish at this level. Larva had 2 easily accessible bases, 4 if he is brave in takes 12 and 6. Rain's real mistake is not going Rambo with that first bust. He could have sacked a few zealots to the main to measure the depth of lurker defense while relying on HT starsense to make the right storm. He has an army mid map to intercept reinforcement from 7, and his next macro cycle was seconds away. So even if we use your upside-downside analysis, the reasonable analysis is that there is no downside to going for the kill with a strategic zealot recon army to lead the way.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
October 23 2017 16:08 GMT
#69
On October 23 2017 09:58 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2017 09:38 Dazed. wrote:
I cant take any writing seriously when it hinges on pro players not understanding the game...

Rain had this game won for 20 straight minutes if he could just work out that there was nothing he could do about Larva's first four bases, and nothing that he needed to do about them. Rain was starving Larva, not the other way around, but he seemed to be completely unaware that he had already won the game. It was just sad. Apparently Rain has absolutely no idea how to play PvZ when macro alone isn't enough.


Apparently, one of the best players in the world is actually a fucking moron who doesnt understand basic starcraft BUT!! he was also ahead and winning for most of the game because hes JUST THAT FUCKING GOOD!

k...

Care to offer a rival explanation for his allin attacks from ahead? If you disagree that he was throwing the game accidentally, are you implying that he did it deliberately?


Counterargument: It was his game plan to break apart the Zerg using a combination of frontal attacks and drops. When the cost of making shuttles was too much, he switched to Arbiters to continue the drop heavy style of play. Larva did an insane job of defending and managed to deny Rain's game plan all game long. Any other Zerg likely would have been broken down by the constant pressure.

Whether or not it would have been "smarter" or "obvious" to go for a counter-turtle style when he was ahead is beside the point. It was his entire plan to shut down the Zerg with drops and inefficient trades. Should he have mixed things up in G4 after realizing that he couldn't break Larva's defense? Probably, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't understand how to play the matchup or he's clueless as to what he could do next. It's possible that Rain felt he had a better chance of breaking his opponent on Fighting Spirit compared to Gold Rush, which is a valid line of logic.

The sheer mechanics both players showed was mind-boggling, and it's only because Larva managed to defend almost everything cost efficiently that (to you) it looked like Rain was playing badly. If Rain had won, I have no doubt you'd be praising him for his genius style of play.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 23 2017 16:15 GMT
#70
On October 24 2017 01:05 yOngKIN wrote:
Show nested quote +
There isn't any upside to going for the kill in that situation.

His fear was more about unknown response once he goes all in blind, and not an upside-downside analysis.

Show nested quote +
At 18 minutes Rain could have triple expanded to 9, 12, and 6

Which he tried to do and failed, and cost him the game. 9? You mean 5? 9 is out of the question, he'll be flanked on all sides way before and lose his nexus and army.

Leaving Z alone midgame on 3+ bases as P might work at B and even A class players, but foolish at this level. Larva had 2 easily accessible bases, 4 if he is brave in takes 12 and 6. Rain's real mistake is not going Rambo with that first bust. He could have sacked a few zealots to the main to measure the depth of lurker defense while relying on HT starsense to make the right storm. He has an army mid map to intercept reinforcement from 7, and his next macro cycle was seconds away. So even if we use your upside-downside analysis, the reasonable analysis is that there is no downside to going for the kill with a strategic zealot recon army to lead the way.

I mean 9. Really. Larva can't win without 9. Flanked on all sides by what? Larva didn't have an army at 18 minutes while Rain had total map control and a full late game Protoss army, reavers, archons, ht etc.

The worst case scenario for taking 9 (at the same time as 12 and 6) is that Larva takes the tiny number of units he has cowering behind his sunken wall and moves them out into Rain's army, which is exactly what Rain wants.

I feel like we watched a completely different game, and in the one you watched Larva had this big army waiting to attack. Go back and count the units he had at 18 minutes. Larva had nothing but sunkens and observer snipes in his arsenal.

The downside for going for a kill is the loss of map control (should you lose), even if only temporary, may allow Larva to get a crucial 5th base at 9 or 12. There is no downside to not going for the kill. You're ahead, and every minute that passes puts you more ahead as you fortify the crucial parts of the map. I'm completely serious, I'll happily sit there in a late game PvZ on Fighting Spirit just covering the every high ground expansion with cannons until no more can fit while the Zerg waits for me to finish them off. And if they let me do that, I'll take the middle and cover that with cannons too.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-23 19:34:17
October 23 2017 16:26 GMT
#71
On October 24 2017 01:08 EsportsJohn wrote:
Only because Larva managed to defend almost everything cost efficiently that (to you) it looked like Rain was playing badly. If Rain had won, I have no doubt you'd be praising him for his genius style of play.

If Rain tries to rush the closing out of a 100% won game by taking a risk that ends it immediately 90% of the time and lets his opponent recover 10% of the time then it's the wrong choice to make, 100% of the time. Maybe in the other 9 universes where Larva didn't hold on I'm praising him because he broke through so I assume he was always going to break through and therefore I don't see a problem. That's a counterfactual, it's hard to say what my assumptions would have been had his gamble worked.

It's irrelevant though, his choice was -EV and in our universe, he got punished for it. Whether or not I would have noticed the fuckup in an alternate universe has no bearing on the existence of the fuckup, especially given how obvious it is in our universe.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
VioleTAK
Profile Joined July 2006
4315 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-23 19:42:57
October 23 2017 19:32 GMT
#72
I have very little to add to this awesome discussion!
So I'll add something from my actual RL work, as I am a psychologist

I've been watching quite a bit of pro streams lately, and I observed that Rain... doesn't seem to give so much of a damn about training, or success generally speaking. the feeling is of an immature child still. Which is absolutely fine, and he should enjoy the prime of his life! Looks like he is, and what he is focusing on more than anything is women. Good for him!

Larva is all about winning this ASL, it means the world to him (and his family), he's been studying his opponents and practicing till he literally drops sleeping on the floor.

Take that as you will...
Every fan of Starcraft is a fan of Lim Yo Hwan by association
Shalashaska_123
Profile Blog Joined July 2013
United States142 Posts
October 23 2017 19:41 GMT
#73
Hello, Teamliquid.

L_Master, it's true that Larva's play that game against Bisu was phenomenal, but I don't think it would have served him well against Rain because of the maps they played on. On Jade there are only 12 bases, but on Fighting Spirit there is an additional base in the center, which gives a Protoss player with map control an extra base to work with. On top of that, the 9 and 12 expos are on high ground, which means Larva would have had to invest more resources to secure them if Rain had contested him.

KwarK, I agree with you that Rain played poorly, but I believe it had more to do with Larva's mind game and superb defense than Rain's lack of understanding of the PvZ matchup. Larva poked the bear in game 1 with that Drone drill and then let Rain do all the cost-inefficient attacking in games 3 and 4. From an observer's point of view that can see everything, Rain clearly underestimated Larva's defense. He might've thought with his lead in supply, he could crush Larva's natural. Even if he lost the fight, I think he thought his economy was good enough that he could easily rebuild his army and finish off Larva before he could rebuild his defenses. Or maybe he just didn't like the idea of playing a long drawn out game against Larva. I don't know for sure. Only Rain himself could explain why he played the way he did.

I think it's quite presumptuous of you to tell a progamer like Rain to quit playing the game, considering how much he's sacrificed to make it this far. It's not rational to wish for something like that anyway since Bisu is leaving for the army soon. Which Protoss player would you root for if both of them left? BeSt and his Dohsairs?

Sincerely,
Shalashaska_123
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
October 23 2017 20:49 GMT
#74
On October 24 2017 01:26 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 01:08 EsportsJohn wrote:
Only because Larva managed to defend almost everything cost efficiently that (to you) it looked like Rain was playing badly. If Rain had won, I have no doubt you'd be praising him for his genius style of play.

If Rain tries to rush the closing out of a 100% won game by taking a risk that ends it immediately 90% of the time and lets his opponent recover 10% of the time then it's the wrong choice to make, 100% of the time. Maybe in the other 9 universes where Larva didn't hold on I'm praising him because he broke through so I assume he was always going to break through and therefore I don't see a problem. That's a counterfactual, it's hard to say what my assumptions would have been had his gamble worked.

It's irrelevant though, his choice was -EV and in our universe, he got punished for it. Whether or not I would have noticed the fuckup in an alternate universe has no bearing on the existence of the fuckup, especially given how obvious it is in our universe.
As long as a game is viably competitive [i.e a decision could allow for the player whos behind to viably come back] then you cant claim anythings certain, and if its certain, then the mistake would of cost him nothing. Stop arguing from hyperbole.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42776 Posts
October 23 2017 21:06 GMT
#75
I mean there is basically no game that is so over that a player who was actively trying to lose it couldn't lose with the right string of decisions. There are only games where a player trying to win should win every time in a decently large sample size. But very few games are so over that if, for example, one player decided to recall their entire army onto a deserted island and leave it there for the rest of the game, the other player couldn't recover. That doesn't mean the game isn't over, because no rational player trying to win would ever recall their entire army onto a deserted island and leave it there for the rest of the game.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 23 2017 23:25 GMT
#76
I've forgotten entire control groups of units for entire games, but I also never got past C- on iccup
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
October 23 2017 23:46 GMT
#77
On October 24 2017 06:06 KwarK wrote:
I mean there is basically no game that is so over that a player who was actively trying to lose it couldn't lose with the right string of decisions. There are only games where a player trying to win should win every time in a decently large sample size. But very few games are so over that if, for example, one player decided to recall their entire army onto a deserted island and leave it there for the rest of the game, the other player couldn't recover. That doesn't mean the game isn't over, because no rational player trying to win would ever recall their entire army onto a deserted island and leave it there for the rest of the game.
Attacking larva is equivalent to recalling an army to an island and then afking? Again, all of this relies on [as i see it] excessive hyperbole about rains relative advantage.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
reincremate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China2213 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-24 02:45:39
October 24 2017 02:20 GMT
#78
On October 24 2017 04:32 VioleTAK wrote:
I have very little to add to this awesome discussion!
So I'll add something from my actual RL work, as I am a psychologist

I've been watching quite a bit of pro streams lately, and I observed that Rain... doesn't seem to give so much of a damn about training, or success generally speaking. the feeling is of an immature child still. Which is absolutely fine, and he should enjoy the prime of his life! Looks like he is, and what he is focusing on more than anything is women. Good for him!

Larva is all about winning this ASL, it means the world to him (and his family), he's been studying his opponents and practicing till he literally drops sleeping on the floor.

Take that as you will...


It seems like Rain has solid mechanics but subpar gamesense as a result of not watching enough replays and not playing enough practice games. I'm guessing that after he pulled pretty far ahead with the whole right side of the map secure and much bigger army, he grossly overestimated the strength of Larva's economy and his unit count and thought "he's gonna move out and kill my 4th and 5th if I don't break his front door while storming his mineral line; best defense is an offense!" He probably could have pulled it off too if he micro'ed his reavers and harassing shuttles better. As impressive as his macro is I think his micro and multitasking were lacking.

Rain probably also thought "if I take the 6 or 12 o' clock high ground bases, Larva will just doom drop them with cracklings and dark swarm and they'll die in like 5 seconds because even with reavers and HTs, static defense is weak, just like the sunkens I'm attacking." Maybe he hasn't recovered from his SC2 mindset of "deathballs kill buildings fast and you only need about 3 bases." He thought "whoa I have way too many bases! And a pretty big late-game army! Better go attack the other guy's base seeing as how there is nothing else to do. Protoss doesn't turtle."
mcmascote
Profile Joined September 2004
Brazil1575 Posts
October 28 2017 20:04 GMT
#79
I wonder how up to date is the TS about today's ZvP. I came back to bw few months ago and while watching streams I always got mad at Tosses like Bisu for attacking sunken lines when they could just "take the rest of the map" as described in the OP. At the time I wondered if Bisu was just bored to play passive on a stream. Then I watched the ASL seasons and noticed it was quite standard for some crazy reason. Then Remastered came along and I started playing then I finally realized why they do this.

You gotta force trades and keep the zerg at bay. Zergs on 7 hatches/4 gasses are too powerful if they can use it to get its economy rolling. TS mentioning Rain was strong even after so many "stupid" decisions could've made him realize he was strong exactly because of the so called "stupid" decisions. He kept the aggression on larva, forcing him not only to not use larvas on drones but also to waste drones on static defense. If you don't force trades forcing engagement where you can cast some great storns then in the midgame you'll get rolled over once cracklings arrive to the party. 2/2/2 Cracklings+ lurkers + hydras counter your first 180/200 army absurdly well. You get raped. If you manage to keep it safe then the plagues arrive shortly to turn your 40 zea/goon into trash. Especially if you are playing against Larva. Not even Flash can handle Larva late game if larva's economy is on a great state.

Rain never allowed Larva to play on a stabilized economy, even tho the korean McGregor was on 4 gasses. That's what kept Rain in the game and with an advantage. In fact, he lost game 4 because he ran out of observers on two occasions. Thats it. Props to Larva for taking them out, but if you read the OP you think it was a beatdown.

PS. I disagree with most of TS description of that game, but one thing that 'hurts' the most is saying rain's initial 3 zeas attack were "poorly microed". That was all about larva's micro and how his multitasking is just amazing right now. His drone drills are legendary.
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