At the moment that sentence is being written, I have not seen sufficient evidence to definitively conclude that the pro gamer Yeon Bo-sung (a.k.a. Sea) is guilty of sexual harassment or physical assault.
However, I have seen evidence to definitively conclude that he has acted in a way that would lead many others to definitively conclude, justly or unjustly, that he is guilty of such misconduct.
This makes it reasonable for sponsors to demand that Sea be banned from the tournament from which they hope to generate positive publicity for their brands. Even if it is ultimately revealed that Sea is innocent, there is a significant risk that the media coverage of the ASL in the interim would be largely negative. For the employees of these sponsors who decided that sponsoring the ASL would be an effective form of marketing, the realization of such a scenario could even lead to the loss of their jobs.
1) We do not yet know whether or not Sea is guilty of committing immoral acts. 2) We do know that Sea very publicly acted in ways that would invite suspicion of such acts. 3) The sponsors are justified in removing Sea from the ASL even in the absence of confirmation.
From this, we can definitively conclude that Sea is an idiot. Perhaps he is an idiot who has been unfairly pilloried, but he is an idiot nevertheless.
I applaud the removal of Sea from this ASL and have the following question: What took you so long?
Sea has been sullying the reputation of pro gamers with his public misconduct for many years now. The only difference is that the launch of SC:R has brought more eyeballs.
I have discussed these actions with others here on TL.net via private messages over the years. In light of the latest controversy invovling Sea, I feel that the time is right to introduce the foreign StarCraft community to the dark side of Sea and the post-KeSPA StarCraft era in Korea. The foreign community needs to know this. Blizzard needs to know this going forward when sanctioning tournaments. There are truly wonderful streamers and pro gamers who have kept the community going during the pre-SC:R years. There are also people like Sea who have disgraced the community repeatedly and attract viewers through his questionable conduct.
None of what I am about to write is a secret. Everything that follows comes from what was seen by the public on past AfreecaTV streams. This isn't some secret info obtained through back-room conversations.
Far more disturbing to me is this: Sea has fraternized with individuals who publicly admitted to gambling on his games in the post-KeSPA era and even gave them insider information that may have moved the lines.
Here is the incident in question, which was streamed live by Sea himself. Since I saw the stream (as did many others), this is not second-hand information. After he lost to Piano in the group stage of the HungryApp Starz League with Kongdoo, Sea had a guest who called himself Jo Jeho on his stream. Jo Jeho, whose real name is Mo Yeongtaek, was someone who had made a habit of publicly boasting about his illegal bets on StarCraft. Mr. Mo was a so-called “named” (i.e., famous) personality to Korean viewers of Sea’s streams because he had donated much money (in the form of AfreecaTV’s star balloons) to many former MBC team members, including Sea. On this stream, Mr. Mo boasted about making a large sum of money by betting against Sea in his match with Piano. Mr. Mo also thanked Sea for providing him with a piece of insider information that he put to good use. Sea apparently had an eye ailment that required treatment prior to his game against Piano. If you watch the VOD of the game, you can hear the Korean casters mentioning that Sea’s eye issue may affect the game. Of course, by that time, Mr. Mo would have locked in favorable betting odds.
So here’s what we know:
1) Sea fraternized Mr. Mo, who illegally bet on his (Sea’s) games. 2) Sea gave Mr. Mo insider information about Sea’s eye ailment and used it to illegally bet against Sea. 3) Mr. Mo had donated many balloons to Sea and other pro gamers. 4) Sea continued to fraternize with Mr. Mo afterwards.
This Mr. Mo was not a just a comic figure. He would later be banned several times by AfreecaTV for a variety of distasteful actions, including harassing female streamers.
Mr. Mo would continue to cast a shadow over Afreeca until the infamous nuking incidents that shook up the post-KeSPA StarCraft scene. During these incidents, which took place in January 2016, multiple StarCraft streams were shut down by DoS (denial of service) attacks that employed packet flooding. These so-called “nuking” attacks were accompanied by demands related that Mr. Mo be unbanned from some streams and allowed into online game rooms as a real-time observer of “spon” matches (i.e., sponsored by individual fans using AfreecaTV star balloons as the prize) between pro gamers. These attacks did not target the pro gamers friendly with Mr. Mo. These DoS attacks even led to the cancellation of a match sponsored by Danawa.com, a price-comparison shopping site. Most pro gamers capitulated to the demands of the attacker. The minor streamers had their entire livelihoods threatened.
The purported attacker boasted that he would never be caught. After all, pro gamers have little formal education and have no idea how these things work. However, there was one person who refused to give in. That was former Sparkyz coach Zeus (Jeon Tae-gyu). His wife comes from a well-to-do family and has connections to good lawyers and know how to work the levers of society. In an emotional stream that took place in the aftermath, Zeus said that he swallowed his pride as a man to seek help from his wife’s family. He eventually secured the help of experts who were able to track down the attacker. It turned out that the attacker was not very technologically advanced. The DoS attacks were not distributed! In other words, they were not launched from multiple sources, which would make it difficult to locate the attacker, but a single one.
There are many things that are amazing about this incident, but perhaps the most telling is this. Zeus said that he secretly withheld from Kongdoo (and other pro gamers) part of the evidence that he had acquired. He said that this was because he suspected that some of these pro gamers would share the evidence with the attacker, which would allow him an opportunity to counter it. This how deeply embedded the attacker was in the post-KeSPA StarCraft scene at that point! At one point Jaehoon, a pro gamer who, like Sea, was friendly with Mr. Mo, joked that Mr. Mo should only nuke him when he was losing a match so that it would have to be replayed.
At this point, Zeus revealed enough information to show that he had tracked down the attacker and demanded a handwritten apology from the attacker with a promise to never set foot in the StarCraft scene again. At this point, guess who uploaded a handwritten apology? None other than Mr. Mo, who had already been the prime suspect. Unfortunately, the apology turned out to a parody of a famous apology letter written by Kim Dae-jung, who was the leader of the democratic movement in South Korea. At that point in time, Kim was sentenced to death by South Korean military dictator Chun Doo-hwan after being framed for conspiracy to commit treason by fomenting rebellion under the direction of North Korea. The international community opposed this blatant fascist action and demanded that Kim be freed. At this point, Chun coerced a letter of apology out of Kim in return for allowing him to travel to the United States to receive medical treatment. In other words, Mr. Mo’s apology was slyly implying that it was being made under duress and not a sincere one.
Having discovered the insincerity of the apology, our hero Zeus was furious and promised to bring the force of the legal process upon the attacker. Not long afterwards, Mr. Mo essentially disappeared from the StarCraft scene and barely a peep has been heard from him since. The logical conclusion is that Mr. Mo was indeed the attacker with high probability.
This is the kind of person with whom Sea was frequently fraternizing on stream.
Sea, along with Pusan, has also been responsible for damaging the reputation of the pro gamer community as a whole. For example, I have seen him on stream openly talk about how MBC Protoss players would frequent “massage parlors”, which most Koreans will understand as establishments that provide prostitution. I have also seen him crudely joke on stream about excessive auto-erotic stimulation taking place in the showers of the MBC team house leading to the clogging of drains by an accumulation of bodily fluids.
I believe that this was the kind of conduct that Stork was speaking about when he criticized streamers for destroying the public image of pro gamers.
The story does not end here. Mr. Mo, in addition to being an avid gambler, is a member of a far-right political community web site called Ilbe. This is something Mr. Mo admits himself. To give a sense of how extreme Ilbe is, think of a Neo-Nazi web site like Stormfront. Being a member of such a community would have a negative impact on your job and dating prospects. At one point, Yellow (Hong Jin-ho) was accused of using Ilbe lingo, which he vehemently denied because that would have led to the end of his career as a public figure. In the aftermath, the computer programmer who co-founded Kongdoo with Yellow ended up creating an Ilbe dictionary to help people avoid accidentally using Ilbe lingo.
Why is this important? It is important because Sea gave a platform for Mr. Mo to spread his Ilbe ideology. For example, Sea once streamed with Mr. Mo as a guest and gave him the platform to spread the far-right lie that the Gwangju Democratic Movement was a riotous rebellion sponsored by communists. Ironically, Mr. Mo cited faulty translations of the word “uprising” used in UNESCO’s documents on the incident to justify his point. If you read the actual UNESCO document, it says:
Students and citizens from across the country were enraged by the situation and took to the streets in protest against the government. On May 18th, 1980 the people of Gwangju passionately protested against the nationwide imposition of martial law. The new military government responsible for the coup dispatched special force paratroopers to Gwangju in order to suppress a peaceful protest led by university students and citizens.
The paratroopers brutally and randomly assaulted men and women, old and young, regardless of whether or not they possessed sticks. Such attacks aggravated the situation further, and more and more people joined the demonstrations.
In Korea, being a denier of the Gwangju Democratic Movement is somewhat like being a Holocaust denier. You can see why given that many innocent people were indiscriminately killed by the military for resisting dictatorship. This is the kind of message that Sea was endorsing in his stream.
While the recent conduct of Sea is suspicious, we have not confirmed that sexual harassment occurred. On the other hand, I have laid out the case here that there are many cases of confirmed misconduct that are bad enough for the community to disassociate itself from bad publicity landmines like Sea.
May StarCraft and the streamers who conduct themselves properly in public prosper. They do not deserved to be lumped in together with the questionable personalities in the community.
To accuse someone that they may or may not have done something without giving evidence(screenshots videos pictures statements from other people in writting) and just accept that your words are the truth.
As Mr. Yum's attorney, I would like to let you all know that my client, Mr. Yum Bo Sung, has never willingly engaged in any criminal behavior, and has always acted within the boundaries of the law. That being said, I am asking that this libelous OP be taken down immediately, as it is wrongfully damaging to the reputation of Mr. Yum.
On September 10 2017 05:51 Judgement wrote: To accuse someone that they may or may not have done something without giving evidence(screenshots videos pictures statements from other people in writting) and just accept that your words are the truth.
Okay
I am giving eyewitness testimony. "I saw Bob punch Jim in the mouth at 2am last night." I can be free to say it without forcing you to believe it. As you are doing here, you are free to disregard it.
How many of us are capturing the streams we are watching before something crazy is done? That said, in messages that someone else on this site 2 years ago, I included YouTube links to someone else's video captures of the eye ailment-related stream. Unfortunately, those videos have since been removed.
Everything else, especially the nuking stuff, can be found with enough Google-fu in Korean. Make of it what you will.
On September 10 2017 05:53 aFF]ZuluNAtion[ wrote: Can someone tl;dr ? "Thanks from mountain".
Apparently Sea has repeatedly had a shady character named Mr Mo on his stream. This Mr Mo is supposed to have been involved in all kinds of shady and perhaps illegal business (majority of the post is about Mr Mo). Sea also has made lewd comments about progamer houses (like trips to "massage parlors") which might give pro gamers a bad image.
I tried googling this Mr Mo guy (other names Jo Jeho and Mo Yeongtaek) but nothing comes up... I guess you have to be able to read Korean.
I am giving eyewitness testimony. "I saw Bob punch Jim in the mouth at 2am last night."
Ah yes, the good old believe me " I saw x or y happen". Why do you think most of these testimonies are not used when people are in court. Since they could easily be falsified to make someone look bad. Which is what you are doing to Sea at the moment.
All you are doing right now is hopping on a bandwagon to try and destroy someones livelihood and/or (mental) health. Whatever happend to innocent until proven guilty.
Stop pretending like you are doing any kind of legit research when you are not even given sources to your claims. Stop destroying someone or something you don't like without legit research and sources that back your claims. If you don't have sources don't come with excusses like "it can be googled", "site is down" or "no one clips it" if the evidence is not there you cannot use it to SLANDER someone.
lemmata clearly trying to steal the thunder of our ASL Power Rankings with his salacious post about Sea :p
I don't know about the Mr. Mo association, but I agree with ForeverWar...talking about the players visiting massage parlors or jacking off a lot is pretty realistic. Maybe Koreans see progamers a bit differently, but that sounds like an accurate description of a 15 year old kid.
Ah yes, the good old believe "me i saw x or y happend". Why do you think most of these testimonies are not used when people are in court. Since they could easily be falsified to make someone look bad. Which you are doing to Sea at the moment.
All you are doing right now is hopping on a bandwagon to try and destroy someones livelihood and/or (mental) health. Whatever happend to innocent until proven guilty.
Stop pretending like you are doing any kind of legit research when you are not even given sources to your claims. Stop destroying someone or something you don't like with legit research and sources that back your claims. If you don't have sources don't come with excusses like "it can be googled", "site is down" or "no one clips it" if the evidence is not there you cannot use it to SLANDER someone.
Screencap of a reply to my PM two years ago about the eye ailment, in which I had working links. You can fault me for not having saved those videos. But it's still something to support my claim that I had provided links to them in TL PMs. Of course, you are free to believe that I provided dummy links in that original PM. For what it's worth, the original link was https://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=HKLQwiFq_cA + Show Spoiler +
Also, you can see that he actually had an eye ailment at the time of game according to the casters in the video (~47s). + Show Spoiler +
Here's what some random people have said on the internet. I do think that I should take back what I said about Google. It seems that many Korean community sites are difficult to search due to restrictions in robots.txt. You can make of it what you will, but you can certainly see that some of things I have said have been said by others.
Some nuking-related posts about Mo and Zeus by others (including apology letter)
I am giving eyewitness testimony. "I saw Bob punch Jim in the mouth at 2am last night."
Ah yes, the good old believe me " I saw x or y happen". Why do you think most of these testimonies are not used when people are in court. Since they could easily be falsified to make someone look bad. Which is what you are doing to Sea at the moment.
All you are doing right now is hopping on a bandwagon to try and destroy someones livelihood and/or (mental) health. Whatever happend to innocent until proven guilty.
Stop pretending like you are doing any kind of legit research when you are not even given sources to your claims. Stop destroying someone or something you don't like without legit research and sources that back your claims. If you don't have sources don't come with excusses like "it can be googled", "site is down" or "no one clips it" if the evidence is not there you cannot use it to SLANDER someone.
Which is what you are doing.
We're not in court are we? Also, nothing in my post says that Sea did anything illegal. It says he hung out with bad people in public and said stupid stuff.
If I see someone doing something, do I have some obligation to shut up just because I didn't record it? That seems like an awfully strange standard, especially since no criminal wrongdoing is alleged. Even if you believe me when I say that Sea told this guy about his eye ailment, that is not illegal. It's just stupid.
People can say what they say saw and others can believe it or not believe it.
I would be perfectly happy to accept it if you are saying that you don't believe me. That's fine. To be honest, I would also be skeptical if I were you.
However, I do have a problem with you saying that I cannot talk about stuff I saw because I didn't record it. That's bogus.
So you have a message with some that agrees with your view that Sea did something "very stupid indeed" with regards to something he did on his stream in 2015 and that it was good that he was removed from SSL10. As evidence that someone did something then shoudln't have done 2 years ago, he was "sentenced" and "served his time" which was no more SSL for Sea. So again this is not relevent nor meaningful to this incident. (not i am not saying that it was good or bad that he wasn't allowed to compete in SSL10, just saying you cannot held someone responsible for something they already were trailed for)
Again the stuff about young people that want to release their tension isn't something weird, as well as the so called "progamer" status. They are YOUNG people ofcourse they have urges and since they are all in house ofcourse these kind of things tend to happen. Nothing special about this.
So the info with regards to Sea his eyes was known since the casters knew so again this proves nothing. If is was a betting man and I knew that one of the guys his eyes were hurting ofcourse I would bet against him, this doesn't prove Sea threw the match since this "insider info" could have been that Sea eyes hurt really bad, but this was already known as you yourself stated.
And you made a link between Mo and Terror, but nothing substantial that the guy had any real connection with SEA(!) with regards to anything beside the man being a fan(?) of Sea.
All in all a lot of words no real meat just a lot of "shit" that gets thrown against someone that did something you didn't like. Just be real about it and acknowledge it and stop pretending to have the moral high ground.
Sea was drunk did something (really) dumb he apologized for it and because he did something dumb he lost respect in the eyes of some(must) people.
But there is no "dark side of Sea", just a normal person that drunk too much.
Edit: Also the fact that you proclaim that people are "bad" is quite funny. Just because someone does/did something you do/did not like doesn't make them "bad people" get of your high horse.
Sea is pretty much terror lite and share a lot of viewerbase. I don't know why people are surprised that era's stream is so wild and a lot of times, raunchy. His viewbase watches him for these kind of streams. Controversial and wild.
There's a reason people in Korea are split about watching sea. Some people absolutely hate these kind of stream and some people love it for being wild/dramatic 24/7
Sea definitely does have some questionable moral beliefs, which definitely popped up during this new post-Kespa era of Brood War. No one should have to be educated why stream cheating in a money match is a really shitty thing to do, especially in a 3v3 game where some players are going random, but apparently Sea needed to be roasted to know that stream cheating is, well, cheating.
Why sully and publicize someone who used to be sponsored and represent Team Liquid on their site? Truth or not, this just puts a bad taste and idea about Sea to others who may not have known anything. Not gonna go to much into this, but I will say let's wait and see how he acts now that the spotlight is on him as this will be a great representation of the person he really is.
1) Sea fraternized Mr. Mo, who illegally bet on his (Sea’s) games. 2) Sea gave Mr. Mo insider information about Sea’s eye ailment and used it to illegally bet against Sea. 3) Mr. Mo had donated many balloons to Sea and other pro gamers. 4) Sea continued to fraternize with Mr. Mo afterwards.
Could you explain what a) makes those bets illegal from your point of view and why b) you're not just bringing this forward towards law enforcement if you know the real name of the guy?
1) Sea fraternized Mr. Mo, who illegally bet on his (Sea’s) games. 2) Sea gave Mr. Mo insider information about Sea’s eye ailment and used it to illegally bet against Sea. 3) Mr. Mo had donated many balloons to Sea and other pro gamers. 4) Sea continued to fraternize with Mr. Mo afterwards.
Could you explain what a) makes those bets illegal from your point of view and why b) you're not just bringing this forward towards law enforcement if you know the real name of the guy?
Gambling, in the form they're practicing, is illegal in South Korea. Not just that, Sea is telling the gambler that he's injured and probably going to lose. That's quite possibly the most benign reading you can give to the situation. Which takes a lot of benefit of the doubt when you take into account said gambler is giving Sea a bucketload of money via balloons.
It might not be straight up match fixing but he's basically implicitly telling his mates to bet against him because he's injured well before the general public knew. That's basically insider trading, which is illegal in just about every country that I know of, in the already illegal industry that is underground gambling.
Its not like Sea has a rock solid reputation when it comes to this sort of stuff. The dude screen cheated in a 3 vs. 3 sponsored match by telling his teammates Flash and Mong what races their opponents were. Unfortunately, it seems to be a general problem with progamers in general since Jaehoon got busted for the exact same thing. I dunno if they're just naive or weren't brought up with proper morals, since they spent their entire adolescence trapped inside dorm rooms playing video games, but it seems to be a general problem with Korean progamers.
As for the guy in question, I figure he's already been dealt with law enforcement thanks to Zeus.
Also, why only Protoss players would attend massage parlours? Does it have anything to do with archons (big shiny balls, sometimes red)? Or with the fact that carriers resemble Ds? Were protoss players more horny than zergs and terrans back in the day?
On September 10 2017 15:55 shall_burn wrote: Also, why only Protoss players would attend massage parlours? Does it have anything to do with archons (big shiny balls, sometimes red)? Or with the fact that carriers resemble Ds? Were protoss players more horny than zergs and terrans back in the day?
On September 10 2017 15:55 shall_burn wrote: Also, why only Protoss players would attend massage parlours? Does it have anything to do with archons (big shiny balls, sometimes red)? Or with the fact that carriers resemble Ds? Were protoss players more horny than zergs and terrans back in the day?
Terran and Zerg players too busy practicing.
Terran and their wrist problems... Can't be just due to 'practising'...
Main problem is a lot of people prefer this kind of streaming, see how terror and sea streams are popular. It was the same for sc2, the "bad boys" (naniwa, idra) were always the most popular. Same shit with camgirls streams or "entertaining" (aka 12year old mentality) streamers. As long as you keep giving money/attention to this kind of people they will keep doing what they're doing.
Just don't watch this kind of stream and give your view to people who actually play the game and work hard to improve.
Thanks anyway for providing more information on Sea.
Thanks for sharing. I always thought that there is something wrong with Sea but never focused on him long enough to make the conclusion. If only I knew Korean it would be so easy to identify the personality of the streamer. Looks like I don't need to. Sea guilty or not is just one unpleasant guy.
On September 10 2017 05:51 Judgement wrote: To accuse someone that they may or may not have done something without giving evidence(screenshots videos pictures statements from other people in writting) and just accept that your words are the truth.
Okay
lemmata is a pretty trustworthy source tho
i dont think he's the type of person who'd lie about something like this, he has nothing to gain from it
1) Sea fraternized Mr. Mo, who illegally bet on his (Sea’s) games. 2) Sea gave Mr. Mo insider information about Sea’s eye ailment and used it to illegally bet against Sea. 3) Mr. Mo had donated many balloons to Sea and other pro gamers. 4) Sea continued to fraternize with Mr. Mo afterwards.
Could you explain what a) makes those bets illegal from your point of view and why b) you're not just bringing this forward towards law enforcement if you know the real name of the guy?
Gambling, in the form they're practicing, is illegal in South Korea. Not just that, Sea is telling the gambler that he's injured and probably going to lose. That's quite possibly the most benign reading you can give to the situation. Which takes a lot of benefit of the doubt when you take into account said gambler is giving Sea a bucketload of money via balloons.
It might not be straight up match fixing but he's basically implicitly telling his mates to bet against him because he's injured well before the general public knew. That's basically insider trading, which is illegal in just about every country that I know of, in the already illegal industry that is underground gambling.
I suspected that that's your approach here, and you're absolutely wrong.
Insider trading is something entirely different and usually about using confident information which a company insider (aka employee) uses to gain an advantage when selling or buying stocks.
If I bet on college football, am friends with the starplayer of the team, learn from his facebook or a casual chat that some event happened that will most likely make them underperform massively and I then use said information as a cause for betting against his team then there is nothing illegal about hat. This isn't insider trading in any way shape or form and you're welcome to try and find a case that treats it as such.
Now, admittedly bragging about such a thing in public is plain stupid since at the very least it draws unwanted attention. Having a financial relationship with the guy is also questionable, but no clear evidence that something fishy is going on. As you said yourself the casters of the game had access to the same information for example. I'd be willing to bet (ha!) that he also mentioned something like this on stream or in an interview at least once - otherwise where would the casters get this info from on matchday?
If money gets exchanged and Sea underperforms because of receiving said money, that's matchfixing and they should both be dealt with - but you're not bringing forward any evidence for that actually occuring.
Instead your chain of thought is: "this is information not everyone has" -> "this is insider information" -> "this is basically insider trading which is illegal" -> "this is illegal" but that comparison fails from the very start and is hence massively misleading by throwing a few buzzwords in there that people associate with: "Oh, yeah, that's bad!". Me being a buddy of Sea, him telling me that he has an issue with his eye-sight and me using that information to bet against him is not illegal in the jurisdictions I'm aware of.
On September 10 2017 05:51 Judgement wrote: To accuse someone that they may or may not have done something without giving evidence(screenshots videos pictures statements from other people in writting) and just accept that your words are the truth.
Okay
lemmata is a pretty trustworthy source tho
i dont think he's the type of person who'd lie about something like this, he has nothing to gain from it
He posted an almost two-year old screenshot of himself talking about "Sea being a huge moron" and referring to him as "brain-dead retarded" while also ranting about how evil this Jojeho character is.
He's also framing the information about the eye ailment as something illegal when the casters of the game had access to the same information - these things alone make me doubt the storyline that refers to this as some kind of top secret information that only this guy got from Sea personally with the intent of matchfixing or something similar.
I don't know if lemmata has any history here that should make him highly trustworthy, but at the very least this seems like a grudge that has been going on for at least close to two years - and now is seemingly the perfect time to celebrate in public how he has always thought that Sea is an idiot and hence deserved his ban while throwing in buzzwords such as "insider information" without actual evidence for that being related to anything malicious in this case.
The entire OP is basically "The Dark Side of Mr. Mo (a guy who donates a lot of money to Sea (and apparently other streamers) and who Sea talks to)" - that alone makes me a bit wary here.
Sure, it's definitely bad that he associates with that type of guy but is that really about Sea and should be seen in the same context as the latest story that lead to his ASL ban? Why is this brought forward in it's own post now, when public opinion is unsure/negative about the guy? Why is this Mr. Mo character not in jail for what is alleged here?
using your own logic, perhaps Sea was only being chummy with Mr. Mo because he knows he doesn't have the wherewithal to fight off a similar attack should Mr. Mo turn on Sea
On September 10 2017 17:56 RouaF wrote: Main problem is a lot of people prefer this kind of streaming, see how terror and sea streams are popular. It was the same for sc2, the "bad boys" (naniwa, idra) were always the most popular. Same shit with camgirls streams or "entertaining" (aka 12year old mentality) streamers. As long as you keep giving money/attention to this kind of people they will keep doing what they're doing.
Just don't watch this kind of stream and give your view to people who actually play the game and work hard to improve.
Thanks anyway for providing more information on Sea.
But remember that Sea isn't just streamer, he's legit top terran and was in ASL finals, he isn't called "Online King" for nothing as he dominated online tournaments post KeSPA era, don't even get me started with KeSPA era. I agree, lately he's trying to go Terror way and that's why his stream is blowing up, can't blame him for it though. Bit less drinking, inviting girls and more strictness will put him in right way.
I don't agree with OP and don't see any dark side of him. Sure, he isn't innocent lamb but accusing him that he damages pro scene is TOO MUCH.
I'm sorry but in my opinion, you don't just come out and say that somebody might or might not be guilty of something; you either have hard evidence that can be reasonably considered or you don't.
This is because it damages the person's reputation regardless of whether they are ultimately proven guilty or innocent. Even if all of the charges are proven to be a misunderstanding or some kind of a nasty plot against the accused and a statement about their innocence is released, it doesn't matter - the repution of the accussed still suffers significant damage; and that is not fair.
This thread is useless. If you're going to hurl accusations at someone, you need references.
While there is controversy surrounding conduct during a broadcast with a woman, it was just a public opinion matter. Sea put his hand on the shoulder of a woman, and this sparked some criticism from viewers, so he was suspended for 7 days.
There is no "dark side" to him. Koreans love to sensationalize things and cut clips to make it look worse than it was. The girl was laughing and joking with him. Sea tried to hug her, and she shoved him away, laughing. Then she felt bad that he was lying there after being shoved, so she grabs his arm and "allows" him to put his arm around her shoulders.
Man I'm sick of all y'all non-drinking, non-shady-character-fraternizing nerd puritans passing moral judgement on and making asshatted assumptions about a guy you've never met. After all the cool shit Sea has done as a progamer, including reaching out to the foreign community. You should all be ashamed.
Maybe in the first gif or two she was but when he hit her, you can see that she pulled her body back out of shock and quite likely pain. The second punch seemed like a joke or weak one but the first one looks like a legit punch. I also applaud Afreeca for what they did. Had no clue about some of the stuff that Sea was doing on his stream. Just goes to show you how much the foreign community misses at times due to the language barrier.
1) Sea fraternized Mr. Mo, who illegally bet on his (Sea’s) games. 2) Sea gave Mr. Mo insider information about Sea’s eye ailment and used it to illegally bet against Sea. 3) Mr. Mo had donated many balloons to Sea and other pro gamers. 4) Sea continued to fraternize with Mr. Mo afterwards.
Could you explain what a) makes those bets illegal from your point of view and why b) you're not just bringing this forward towards law enforcement if you know the real name of the guy?
Gambling, in the form they're practicing, is illegal in South Korea. Not just that, Sea is telling the gambler that he's injured and probably going to lose. That's quite possibly the most benign reading you can give to the situation. Which takes a lot of benefit of the doubt when you take into account said gambler is giving Sea a bucketload of money via balloons.
It might not be straight up match fixing but he's basically implicitly telling his mates to bet against him because he's injured well before the general public knew. That's basically insider trading, which is illegal in just about every country that I know of, in the already illegal industry that is underground gambling.
I suspected that that's your approach here, and you're absolutely wrong.
Insider trading is something entirely different and usually about using confident information which a company insider (aka employee) uses to gain an advantage when selling or buying stocks.
I'm aware they're different. The idea is the same however: using insider information to get better odds than the public can reasonably expect to achieve.
If I bet on college football, am friends with the starplayer of the team, learn from his facebook or a casual chat that some event happened that will most likely make them underperform massively and I then use said information as a cause for betting against his team then there is nothing illegal about hat. This isn't insider trading in any way shape or form and you're welcome to try and find a case that treats it as such.
If a star player makes a comment about his condition on Facebook, he's making his status public for everyone to know. As long as your Facebook posts can be accessed by their intended recipients (eg. their friends), then any information spread from said post can be considered public.
Your example is not illegal because said person made the information public. Now, if Sea kept his information private long enough so Mr. Mo was able to put odds against Sea when Sea was still the clear favourite to beat Piano? That's using private information, that the bookies are completely unaware of, for the sole purpose of getting a leg up on everyone else. By the time the public knew about Sea's eye ailment, Mr. Mo's lucrative odds were already locked in.
In a lot of sporting leagues, players and staff are banned from betting on their own sports for this reason.
This is completely ignoring the fact that Mr. Mo is engaging in illegal sports betting in the first place. Even if there was nothing wrong with his conduct with Sea, he's still engaging in illegal activity.
Now, admittedly bragging about such a thing in public is plain stupid since at the very least it draws unwanted attention. Having a financial relationship with the guy is also questionable, but no clear evidence that something fishy is going on. As you said yourself the casters of the game had access to the same information for example. I'd be willing to bet (ha!) that he also mentioned something like this on stream or in an interview at least once - otherwise where would the casters get this info from on matchday
Yes, there's no evidence of Sea actually throwing matches from this but there's lot of evidence that he doesn't really see a problem with engaging in illegal gambling, considering he's fraternizing and accepting donations that he knows were achieved via illegal means, or even cheating in sponsored matches. The only reason why these allegations become actual issues is because Sea has a pretty rubbish reputation as a streamer.
If this was Jaedong, we'd dismiss these issues straight up. The guy plays to win, has shown that he only cares about winning, and has a reputation of being completely straight when it comes to playing fair. And he'd very unlikely tell some dude engaged in illegal sports betting that he has a busted wrist and is going to lose against Jaehoon.
I don't give a shit if Sea played for Teamliquid. Anyone who screen cheats in a $100 3 vs. 3 showmatch is either extremely naive or lacks moral fortitude in general. And anyone willing to cheat in a $100 (that's $100, I earn that in two hours) showmatch is no doubt willing to do way more for way more money.
I love how sea makes one mistake and the generally submissive and calm nature that most koreans have is trashed and out comes a drama hungry ravenous beast that claims sea promotes death and destruction because he had someone on his stream one time and this and this and that. I love starcraft, but after 12 years of following the scene. playing the game and interacting with many koreans i'm really starting to hate their culture with a raging passion, everything just feels like highschool, grow up. no offense, of course. i'm saying all of this out of genuine concern for the sc scene.
they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
On September 11 2017 05:45 WhatisProtoss wrote: This thread is useless. If you're going to hurl accusations at someone, you need references.
While there is controversy surrounding conduct during a broadcast with a woman, it was just a public opinion matter. Sea put his hand on the shoulder of a woman, and this sparked some criticism from viewers, so he was suspended for 7 days.
There is no "dark side" to him. Koreans love to sensationalize things and cut clips to make it look worse than it was. The girl was laughing and joking with him. Sea tried to hug her, and she shoved him away, laughing. Then she felt bad that he was lying there after being shoved, so she grabs his arm and "allows" him to put his arm around her shoulders.
Well... Since I am a girl it probably gives more weight to what I say about this. It is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous sorry. The girl is laughing all the time and in the end she even drags him back to herself. Not sure if Sea got into a trap and this girl is (however) looking for some fame... Also I am wondering how and who was pointing a finger on him that this is sexual harassment... Ridiculous... Simply ridiculous....
On September 12 2017 19:01 paxconsciente wrote:they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
It was more than one of the greatest zergs of all time engaged in match fixing. It was like half of Hite Sparkyz's proleague lineup (go.go, type-b, fake Yellow), Luxury who won a MSL and Hwasin who was a top 10 terran for a very long time.
These weren't just one or two players that people don't really care about. These were proleague A teamer and frequent RO16 players.
On September 11 2017 09:52 Ancestral wrote: What happened on the video is pretty clearly assault, if she didn't want him to do it, which it seems from the video she didn't.
Of course, if she doesn't pursue assault charges, then it's not (legally) assault.
???
It's either assault or it isn't, legally and in general. If the alleged victim does not press charges it just reduces the odds of the alleged perpetrator being tried.
On September 12 2017 19:01 paxconsciente wrote:they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
It was more than one of the greatest zergs of all time engaged in match fixing. It was like half of Hite Sparkyz's proleague lineup (go.go, type-b, fake Yellow), Luxury who won a MSL and Hwasin who was a top 10 terran for a very long time.
These weren't just one or two players that people don't really care about. These were proleague A teamer and frequent RO16 players.
If there's any progamer that warrants a hate thread it's Luxury. I personally never had a problem with match fixers (which would warrant discussion on its own without the blind hate even mentioning it gets), but the guy literally exploited his handicapped wife for money and beat her to the point of sending her to the hospital.
As far as I'm concerned rehab wouldn't hurt Sea and it would be the only proactive solution to what happened, but Asian culture in general doesn't see alcohol abuse as a problem.
lol at "dark side". op content aside, not sure about saying sea has a "dark side" but as a korean who watches his stream very occasionally, he is definitely not the kind of guy you would....bring home to your parents for example. he says and does a lot of retarded shit and overall seems like an uneducated fellow. in korean i would call him "개념없어" which basically means he lacks common sense
On September 11 2017 09:52 Ancestral wrote: What happened on the video is pretty clearly assault, if she didn't want him to do it, which it seems from the video she didn't.
Of course, if she doesn't pursue assault charges, then it's not (legally) assault.
???
It's either assault or it isn't, legally and in general. If the alleged victim does not press charges it just reduces the odds of the alleged perpetrator being tried.
That's not true. If she says "he was flirting with me and I was starstruck and asked to be punched, for I knew how great an honor it would be if the great Yumbo Sung punched me, and it would make my life perfect forever and I could kill myself after. I signed a contract stating that Yumbo Sung must punch me with a peak force of between 175 Nm and 210 Nm, and that I would pay him 1 billion won to do so."
On September 11 2017 09:52 Ancestral wrote: What happened on the video is pretty clearly assault, if she didn't want him to do it, which it seems from the video she didn't.
Of course, if she doesn't pursue assault charges, then it's not (legally) assault.
???
It's either assault or it isn't, legally and in general. If the alleged victim does not press charges it just reduces the odds of the alleged perpetrator being tried.
That's not true. If she says "he was flirting with me and I was starstruck and asked to be punched, for I knew how great an honor it would be if the great Yumbo Sung punched me, and it would make my life perfect forever and I could kill myself after. I signed a contract stating that Yumbo Sung must punch me with a peak force of between 175 Nm and 210 Nm, and that I would pay him 1 billion won to do so."
If that's what happened it was never assault in the first place. If she's lying it's still assault*. Once again, it's just unlikely to be prosecuted because the facts are obscured.
If I punch a stranger for no good reason, but he later denies that it even happened, an assault still took place, it's just unlikely that I'll face the consequences.
(*This assumption is purely for the sake of argument. This is not a statement on whether or not I think Sea's actions were actually against the law.)
On September 11 2017 05:45 WhatisProtoss wrote: This thread is useless. If you're going to hurl accusations at someone, you need references.
While there is controversy surrounding conduct during a broadcast with a woman, it was just a public opinion matter. Sea put his hand on the shoulder of a woman, and this sparked some criticism from viewers, so he was suspended for 7 days.
There is no "dark side" to him. Koreans love to sensationalize things and cut clips to make it look worse than it was. The girl was laughing and joking with him. Sea tried to hug her, and she shoved him away, laughing. Then she felt bad that he was lying there after being shoved, so she grabs his arm and "allows" him to put his arm around her shoulders.
Well... Since I am a girl it probably gives more weight to what I say about this. It is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous sorry. The girl is laughing all the time and in the end she even drags him back to herself. Not sure if Sea got into a trap and this girl is (however) looking for some fame... Also I am wondering how and who was pointing a finger on him that this is sexual harassment... Ridiculous... Simply ridiculous....
wtf the girl isn't looking for fame. Shes a fellow BJ sea does a lot of collaboration stream with
Stop pointing fingers when you dont even know people involved
On September 11 2017 09:52 Ancestral wrote: What happened on the video is pretty clearly assault, if she didn't want him to do it, which it seems from the video she didn't.
Of course, if she doesn't pursue assault charges, then it's not (legally) assault.
???
It's either assault or it isn't, legally and in general. If the alleged victim does not press charges it just reduces the odds of the alleged perpetrator being tried.
That's not true. If she says "he was flirting with me and I was starstruck and asked to be punched, for I knew how great an honor it would be if the great Yumbo Sung punched me, and it would make my life perfect forever and I could kill myself after. I signed a contract stating that Yumbo Sung must punch me with a peak force of between 175 Nm and 210 Nm, and that I would pay him 1 billion won to do so."
If that's what happened it was never assault in the first place. If she's lying it's still assault*. Once again, it's just unlikely to be prosecuted because the facts are obscured.
If I punch a stranger for no good reason, but he later denies that it even happened, an assault still took place, it's just unlikely that I'll face the consequences.
(*This assumption is purely for the sake of argument. This is not a statement on whether or not I think Sea's actions were actually against the law.)
I didn't pay attention to the part you highlighted, sorry.
I was also imprecise. By "doesn't pursue assault charges" I was including "didn't personally view it as assault and was complicit to some extent by acknowledging it as flirting and indulging in it." I didn't mean "did personally view it as assault but chose not to take any action."
On September 12 2017 19:01 paxconsciente wrote:they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
It was more than one of the greatest zergs of all time engaged in match fixing. It was like half of Hite Sparkyz's proleague lineup (go.go, type-b, fake Yellow), Luxury who won a MSL and Hwasin who was a top 10 terran for a very long time.
These weren't just one or two players that people don't really care about. These were proleague A teamer and frequent RO16 players.
If there's any progamer that warrants a hate thread it's Luxury. I personally never had a problem with match fixers (which would warrant discussion on its own without the blind hate even mentioning it gets), but the guy literally exploited his handicapped wife for money and beat her to the point of sending her to the hospital.
As far as I'm concerned rehab wouldn't hurt Sea and it would be the only proactive solution to what happened, but Asian culture in general doesn't see alcohol abuse as a problem.
I'm not saying if I disagree with you or not. Its just I wonder if there are any people out there who just saw the initial thread about Luxury and never saw the thread after.
On September 11 2017 05:45 WhatisProtoss wrote: This thread is useless. If you're going to hurl accusations at someone, you need references.
While there is controversy surrounding conduct during a broadcast with a woman, it was just a public opinion matter. Sea put his hand on the shoulder of a woman, and this sparked some criticism from viewers, so he was suspended for 7 days.
There is no "dark side" to him. Koreans love to sensationalize things and cut clips to make it look worse than it was. The girl was laughing and joking with him. Sea tried to hug her, and she shoved him away, laughing. Then she felt bad that he was lying there after being shoved, so she grabs his arm and "allows" him to put his arm around her shoulders.
Well... Since I am a girl it probably gives more weight to what I say about this. It is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous sorry. The girl is laughing all the time and in the end she even drags him back to herself. Not sure if Sea got into a trap and this girl is (however) looking for some fame... Also I am wondering how and who was pointing a finger on him that this is sexual harassment... Ridiculous... Simply ridiculous....
wtf the girl isn't looking for fame. Shes a fellow BJ sea does a lot of collaboration stream with
Stop pointing fingers when you dont even know people involved
I am not pointing a finger on her... Read the sentence correctly please... it says "NOT SURE IF" Fame seeking girls and friends of Progamers are nothing spectacular though XD~
excuse me but that terror attitude in the video below the first post is far more disgusting than anything listed about Sea. Thats pure disgrace and i have never understand how can people enjoy that. I would rather punch him in the face rather than give him baloons. That and larva attitude tolerated by masses makes me wander, is afreeca the place where most low life/no life koreans hang? I could guess how stork seen these seizure and infantile attitude tolerated as a disgrace to the progamers.
On September 12 2017 19:01 paxconsciente wrote:they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
It was more than one of the greatest zergs of all time engaged in match fixing. It was like half of Hite Sparkyz's proleague lineup (go.go, type-b, fake Yellow), Luxury who won a MSL and Hwasin who was a top 10 terran for a very long time.
These weren't just one or two players that people don't really care about. These were proleague A teamer and frequent RO16 players.
If there's any progamer that warrants a hate thread it's Luxury. I personally never had a problem with match fixers (which would warrant discussion on its own without the blind hate even mentioning it gets), but the guy literally exploited his handicapped wife for money and beat her to the point of sending her to the hospital.
As far as I'm concerned rehab wouldn't hurt Sea and it would be the only proactive solution to what happened, but Asian culture in general doesn't see alcohol abuse as a problem.
I'm not saying if I disagree with you or not. Its just I wonder if there are any people out there who just saw the initial thread about Luxury and never saw the thread after.
I did not, I wasn't following the scene at the time. The translated article is a very interesting read.
On September 11 2017 12:07 reincremate wrote: Man I'm sick of all y'all non-drinking, non-shady-character-fraternizing nerd puritans passing moral judgement on and making asshatted assumptions about a guy you've never met. After all the cool shit Sea has done as a progamer, including reaching out to the foreign community. You should all be ashamed.
100% agree, its like watching girls bitching about this and that. Did the girl have charged Sea with abuse? If not then all this talking is useless. Have you ever heard of forgiveness, its something that makes you human. Its good to first look into your life then nitpick every flaw in others attitude.
On September 14 2017 21:04 _Animus_ wrote: That and larva attitude tolerated by masses makes me wander, is afreeca the place where most low life/no life koreans hang?
On September 12 2017 19:01 paxconsciente wrote:they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
It was more than one of the greatest zergs of all time engaged in match fixing. It was like half of Hite Sparkyz's proleague lineup (go.go, type-b, fake Yellow), Luxury who won a MSL and Hwasin who was a top 10 terran for a very long time.
These weren't just one or two players that people don't really care about. These were proleague A teamer and frequent RO16 players.
If there's any progamer that warrants a hate thread it's Luxury. I personally never had a problem with match fixers (which would warrant discussion on its own without the blind hate even mentioning it gets), but the guy literally exploited his handicapped wife for money and beat her to the point of sending her to the hospital.
As far as I'm concerned rehab wouldn't hurt Sea and it would be the only proactive solution to what happened, but Asian culture in general doesn't see alcohol abuse as a problem.
I'm not saying if I disagree with you or not. Its just I wonder if there are any people out there who just saw the initial thread about Luxury and never saw the thread after.
Just because he was found not-guilty in court does not mean he is actually innocent in an objective sense, nor does it mean he's not still a piece of shit (as the users in that thread were quick to point out, even though you yourself failed to notice that).
On September 14 2017 21:14 _Animus_ wrote:
Did the girl have charged Sea with abuse? If not then all this talking is useless.
You're right, it's not like any victim has ever just kept quiet and hoped for the shitstorm to blow over, without exposing the truth... No sir-e, it has literally never happened. If the victim doesn't say much then clearly he's as right as rain...
On September 12 2017 19:01 paxconsciente wrote:they nearly killed BW over one players matchfixing scandal, what's next?
It was more than one of the greatest zergs of all time engaged in match fixing. It was like half of Hite Sparkyz's proleague lineup (go.go, type-b, fake Yellow), Luxury who won a MSL and Hwasin who was a top 10 terran for a very long time.
These weren't just one or two players that people don't really care about. These were proleague A teamer and frequent RO16 players.
If there's any progamer that warrants a hate thread it's Luxury. I personally never had a problem with match fixers (which would warrant discussion on its own without the blind hate even mentioning it gets), but the guy literally exploited his handicapped wife for money and beat her to the point of sending her to the hospital.
As far as I'm concerned rehab wouldn't hurt Sea and it would be the only proactive solution to what happened, but Asian culture in general doesn't see alcohol abuse as a problem.
I'm not saying if I disagree with you or not. Its just I wonder if there are any people out there who just saw the initial thread about Luxury and never saw the thread after.
Just because he was found not-guilty in court does not mean he is actually innocent in an objective sense, nor does it mean he's not still a piece of shit (as the users in that thread were quick to point out, even though you yourself failed to notice that).
Do you think I would link to a thread from 3 years ago if I didn't bother to read the posts from it? I read the thread when it was first posted and yes I noticed the posts after back then too.
I don't disagree with you that just because Luxury was found not-guilty that hes completely innocent. The result also doesn't change the fact that he still matchfixed. I linked to the thread in case there were people who were unaware of the results of the investigation. After that you can come up with whatever conclusion you want. I didn't link to the thread to support Luxury.
hot damn I missed this thread. that story about some guy donating to sea publicly like that sounds like an obvious troll which this OP is trying to make out as sea being evil. if I go donate to SoS thanking him for throwing game 7 of the gsl finals, that doesn't mean sos is match fixing.
I've followed korean pop long enough to know that korean news is extremely bias and fishes way too hard to create drama for article views = more money. Watching the whole video puts it into perspective.
SHOUTOUTS to the team liquid mod who banned me for two days in the other thread for saying that everyone was overreacting and that obvious it was flirting between both parties. Yet people in this thread are saying just what I said now that they say the full video. Really shows the divide of people who just watch asl and actually know the korean scene and culture.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xHrguQJ.png)
