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$15 dollars to bring a game from 1998 to current day standards seems feasible. Keep in mind the game was engineered at at time were most players were using Dial-Up as their primary Internet connection.
I don't think Blizzard is doing it for the money, but rather to support the Korean eSports scene. If they sell per-say, a million copies of StarCraft - Remastered, it is still an insignificant amount of revenue compared to say their Monthly WoW income.
I for one am very thankful and happy to pay 15 dollars to have an updated interface, widescreen support and a built in MMR and ladder system.
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You cant have free matchmaking, there would be hard to punish cheaters if the game was free. If you get banned now, you haft to atleast spend some money to buy a new game.
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On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway.
That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't.
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Pretty excited for automatchmaking on public server with great looking graphics tbh :O just hope game runs well :O
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On August 09 2017 18:53 Endymion wrote:
honestly playing on iccup is lagger than playing on fish as someone currently in texas... i can't even notice the lag on fish while microing. in fact, when i has living in korea for a little bit the games were laggier in pcbangs than they were back home in the states lol. not sure if SCR is laggier or something? i havent played it or 1.18/1.19, but this was never really a problem for me in 1.16.1 Yeah. ICCUP was already global, so whats the problem?
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On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't.
IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that..
How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO
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On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't. IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that.. How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO
Oh yea. I'm clearly bashing right now. Please don't bring that silly SC2-laden discussion back - it's irrelevant.
More to the point - who cares If someone only plays 1 match up? What if that is what they like to do? Not like they can go pro or hurt your chances of going pro. Aren't you doing exactly what you complained about by trying to control how other people play the game, or at least imposing your personal standards on it? The hipocrosy is rich.
Also if you think that the lobby system somehow helped you avoid cheese, you're dead wrong. Any person who made it to C- on ICCup had to weather dozens of cheeses in their competitive gaming career, even if they themselves cheesed. Cheese is present throughout all Brood War, from Juan123dePeru@ICCup to 5 pool in ProLeague. And that's perfectly fine with me. The inability to ask someone for a rematch and have it count/get your points back, the inability to play a predetermined BoX series, to ban someone who lags extremely hard and wins because people either forfeit or can't micro at frame by frame rates, those are the things that piss me off about the exclusion of lobbies from ladder. I wouldn't even care if they were only allowed on SC:R, at least then people would have some control over their gaming experience.
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On August 11 2017 06:45 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't. IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that.. How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO Oh yea. I'm clearly bashing right now. Please don't bring that silly SC2-laden discussion back - it's irrelevant. More to the point - who cares If someone only plays 1 match up? What if that is what they like to do? Not like they can go pro or hurt your chances of going pro. Aren't you doing exactly what you complained about by trying to control how other people play the game, or at least imposing your personal standards on it? The hipocrosy is rich.
SC2 wasn't even mentioned, still bashes it, denies bashing
You can still play custom games with 1 matchup if you really want.
Or stay on iccup.
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On August 11 2017 08:57 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 06:45 Jealous wrote:On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't. IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that.. How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO Oh yea. I'm clearly bashing right now. Please don't bring that silly SC2-laden discussion back - it's irrelevant. More to the point - who cares If someone only plays 1 match up? What if that is what they like to do? Not like they can go pro or hurt your chances of going pro. Aren't you doing exactly what you complained about by trying to control how other people play the game, or at least imposing your personal standards on it? The hipocrosy is rich. SC2 wasn't even mentioned, still bashes it, denies bashing You can still play custom games with 1 matchup if you really want. Or stay on iccup.
Please check yourself. He directly referenced the recent "What wrecked SC2?" thread. I said that it was irrelevant and didn't say a damn word about it more. Didn't even say anything about the game, only the thread that was about the game, and the rest of the content of both posts was about this system in conjunction with Brood War and its cons. So please, get off my nuts with all that, both of you. This has nothing to do with SC2, your victim complexes don't apply here.
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I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win.
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On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win.
They 100% penalize failed cheese/cheese scouts on iccup. using their report system is a pain but you can get points from it too ya know.
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On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't.
Laddering via picking your matches, maps, and opponents is stupid/highly abuseable and always has been. Great for its time and I loved Iccup but it's 2017 now.
Like the dude said, lobbies are still available. Just not for the purpose of gaining ladder points
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On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win.
Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning.
Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though.
The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time.
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On August 11 2017 06:05 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 18:53 Endymion wrote:
honestly playing on iccup is lagger than playing on fish as someone currently in texas... i can't even notice the lag on fish while microing. in fact, when i has living in korea for a little bit the games were laggier in pcbangs than they were back home in the states lol. not sure if SCR is laggier or something? i havent played it or 1.18/1.19, but this was never really a problem for me in 1.16.1 Yeah. ICCUP was already global, so whats the problem?
iccup had a good standpoint maybe i dont know but iccup fish etc had always way less lag then official blizzard servers
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Just make a little chat box for when the game is loading...
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On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:
IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it.
[...]
It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie.[...]
The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. [...]They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers.
And lobbies are still available anyway.[...]
Re-arragend and shortened the parts that really do bug me. If you don't want to read much, here's my response in short:
After 10+ years of being an organizer for ladder-related events and ICCup I can honestly tell you that none of your points have a place in reality. Noob bashing is still possible, if you really want to do it. The lobby system as of now is not comparable to older systems, and it really has some major downsides, especially when it comes to somewhat "social" aspects of the game.
The long version:
Players approach the ladder with very different ideas. Most ladders in the past made it pretty clear that ladders are there to train and perfect your games against as much opponents as possible. Therefore most of your arguments were invalid, as WGT, PGT and ICCup achieved this very past when still having a decent population size. It didn't matter if there were people stomping newbs, as newbs should only sign up to face anything thrown at them. Ladders were never there for them to just have a fun banter with random people. Same goes for "one match up" players - maybe they just wanted to improve in that particular aspect. Nothing wrong with it. Nobody ever got anything from his rank. Any qualifier based on the ranking system was supervized and had special rules - so match up pickers wouldn't hurt that either. Any player, who actually was offended by those people - bashers and pickers - never understood the idea of a ladder in the first place. The rank never mattered, improving your own game mattered, the ranks were just a good indicator to check your own progress, nothing more, nothing less.
And this is my problem with the Blizzard ladder. The way it is implemented right now makes me ask who it should serve: the average player? Maybe. I guess it fulfills all criterias above, yet it is shown as if guarantees casuals and average players to just find "good" games, much as in "have a friendly banter". This collides with every idea old ladders had. Especially casuals will face the brutal grinding that a ladder is. They might only realize this after a few months, but believe me, it's not really motivating for most.
Meanwhile, casuals and beginners have no real chance to chat or engage with the player. It will all be rendered to some "hf gl" and one "gg". What really forged the community were interactions in the lobby and before, a prime example being WGTour. This used some Match Making alorithm, but still needed you to actually host in the Battle.net first. I don't see anything wrong with that.
As for the no abuse aspect: If I really feel like bashing newbs, I'll just lose a ton of games and drop down to the lowest parts of the game. It's not a huge task.
About the "perfect" MMR: If you have time to grind 30+ games to get ranked somewhat accurately for one match up, it seems nice. I had the problem in SCII that I wouldn't get good matches in 40 games - either big newbs with glaring mechanical mistakes, or players way above my own skill cap. I didn't have time to play more to maybe get more accurate rankings per season. Finding matches differently - near impossible. I don't want such a thing for casuals in BW.
I get you like the ladder, but it is really not being "elitist" to see major downsides to it.
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On August 11 2017 16:42 GeckoXp wrote:The lobby system as of now is not comparable to older systems, and it really has some major downsides, especially when it comes to somewhat "social" aspects of the game.
Woot do you mean? the lobby system of what compared to what older? what downsides?
ah you must mean the lobby system of sc2 compared to bw/wc3 ?
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can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue?
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On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:
Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time.
Is this the beginning of a grudge match?! :D
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Please I don't want to have chat channels like
Brood War xxx-1 and so on, it would be better to create channels with a ranking system, so a bunch of D players would sit in the same channel as other D players, the same goes for C,B,A,S, etc. or MMR somehow like, 1000 - 1300 = 1 channel but with xxx-1 you have rdm dudes from your country sitting there with different skilllevel so you just press the ladder button and smalltalk to them about god and flamewars like in wc3
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EPT
