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On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue?
It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency.
Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8).
From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right.
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On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win. Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning. Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though. The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time.
lol I never said cheese wont happen, but in a real matchmaking, cheese HAS to happen and you HAVE to get used to it. I'm perfectly fine with cheese, I focus very heavily on defending it and I often do very well on matchmaking because of that fact. I don't bitch and complain like most people "wahhh you didnt open up CC first, you are abusing the game!". So bring the cheese on, I wanna match up vs players who DONT only play TvP and leave at the scout of proxy gates to get their B+ rating.
I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
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On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right.
Yes I believe you are right on all points.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758576823
8 is basically unplayable and not fun for anyone competitive. 10 was manageable but it still had huge downsides for mutalisk micro etc. 12 would be ideal but unfortunately it will lag for a lot of people. I have to set it to extra high for Koreans to not lag with me.
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On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right.
it's odd that blizzard chose not just use #w or #l2 then since it has historically been smooth even for foreigners.. it's understandable that the koreans are frustrated about having bad MM servers. i'm betting eventually the fish ladder will require the higher "turn rate" to be considered a +/- mmr game
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On August 11 2017 23:09 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win. Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning. Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though. The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time. lol I never said cheese wont happen, but in a real matchmaking, cheese HAS to happen and you HAVE to get used to it. I'm perfectly fine with cheese, I focus very heavily on defending it and I often do very well on matchmaking because of that fact. I don't bitch and complain like most people "wahhh you didnt open up CC first, you are abusing the game!". So bring the cheese on, I wanna match up vs players who DONT only play TvP and leave at the scout of proxy gates to get their B+ rating. I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
if you havent played in that long your odds of beating Fana or his odds of getting that low on the ladder are pretty slim imo
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On August 11 2017 22:34 CrymeaTerran wrote:
Please I don't want to have chat channels like
Brood War xxx-1 and so on, it would be better to create channels with a ranking system, so a bunch of D players would sit in the same channel as other D players, the same goes for C,B,A,S, etc. or MMR somehow like, 1000 - 1300 = 1 channel but with xxx-1 you have rdm dudes from your country sitting there with different skilllevel so you just press the ladder button and smalltalk to them about god and flamewars like in wc3
you could have those channels options but making it default would make no sense for ppl who don't play much ladder, I typically play both fun games and ladder games (more ladder) and I prefer base chat channels to ladder-based, I don't want to lose the public chat chans^^ where you just see everyone and you can show ur cool icons you got from playing the game even out of ladder^^
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On August 11 2017 23:09 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win. Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning. Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though. The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time. lol I never said cheese wont happen, but in a real matchmaking, cheese HAS to happen and you HAVE to get used to it. I'm perfectly fine with cheese, I focus very heavily on defending it and I often do very well on matchmaking because of that fact. I don't bitch and complain like most people "wahhh you didnt open up CC first, you are abusing the game!". So bring the cheese on, I wanna match up vs players who DONT only play TvP and leave at the scout of proxy gates to get their B+ rating. I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
Sure, let's ignore all of the counter-arguments from multiple people and just repeat our original points ad nauseam.
Lol k.
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On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
Doesnt it strike YOU as odd that you've played so little and yet are making pronouncements about the tendencies found on iCCUP? A little self awareness can go a long way in life...On August 11 2017 23:34 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right. it's odd that blizzard chose not just use #w or #l2 then since it has historically been smooth even for foreigners.. it's understandable that the koreans are frustrated about having bad MM servers. i'm betting eventually the fish ladder will require the higher "turn rate" to be considered a +/- mmr game Honestly im expecting that blizzard will change the default turn rate on MM after the backlash, but only time will tell.
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No idea how i double posted...
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On August 11 2017 23:14 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right. Yes I believe you are right on all points. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/207585768238 is basically unplayable and not fun for anyone competitive. 10 was manageable but it still had huge downsides for mutalisk micro etc. 12 would be ideal but unfortunately it will lag for a lot of people. I have to set it to extra high for Koreans to not lag with me.
That test seems inaccurate to me, I wouldn't necessarily trust it outright. I'll try and run my own tests later today, but I would very much expect that an 8 turn rate at low latency is identical to lan latency (which, note, is slightly *faster* than ICCup/Fish would have been in 1.16, due to how the values they modify are used). In general I'd say that people are bad at identifying latency at these levels, and are very affected in their judgment by unrelated things.
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I've always thought 8 at low settings was pretty good, I don't feel as if it's a big difference from L2 like some people claim. But wtf do I know.
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I don't feel like 8 is bad either. 8 on high/extra high lat does suck. Would prefer 12 of course.
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8 on low has a very palpable delay for me. iCCup and fish feel better in general. Then for me turn rate 12 on extra high feels identical to fish/iccup and finally 12 feels amazing.
Looking forward to those tests by tec27!
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On August 11 2017 23:34 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right. it's odd that blizzard chose not just use #w or #l2 then since it has historically been smooth even for foreigners.. it's understandable that the koreans are frustrated about having bad MM servers. i'm betting eventually the fish ladder will require the higher "turn rate" to be considered a +/- mmr game
I don't think they really changed much when it comes to the netcode, I think the difference is primarily from input handling (there were TONS of threads about how 1.18+ handle inputs differently from 1.16), since L2 differs from turn rate 8 and L1 differs from turn rate 12 by roughly the same amount (20-30ms according to the brief tests I did and posted on the b.net forums, nothing massively conclusive of course).
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Why don't they just consolidate all this turn rate / latency stuff into a simpler naming scheme and allow you to change the option in-game?
Latency 1 = Turn rate 16, Latency low
Latency 2 = Turn rate 16, Latency high
Latency 3 = Turn rate 16, Latency highest
Latency 4 = Turn rate 12, Latency low
...
Latency 9 = Turn rate 8, Latency highest
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On August 12 2017 06:18 Lazare1969 wrote:
Why don't they just consolidate all this turn rate / latency stuff into a simpler naming scheme and allow you to change the option in-game?
Latency 1 = Turn rate 16, Latency low
Latency 2 = Turn rate 16, Latency high
Latency 3 = Turn rate 16, Latency highest
Latency 4 = Turn rate 12, Latency low
...
Latency 9 = Turn rate 8, Latency highest
Because latency is controllable in-game (and needs to be), Turn rate is not.
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On August 12 2017 06:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2017 06:18 Lazare1969 wrote:
Why don't they just consolidate all this turn rate / latency stuff into a simpler naming scheme and allow you to change the option in-game?
Latency 1 = Turn rate 16, Latency low
Latency 2 = Turn rate 16, Latency high
Latency 3 = Turn rate 16, Latency highest
Latency 4 = Turn rate 12, Latency low
...
Latency 9 = Turn rate 8, Latency highest Because latency is controllable in-game (and needs to be), Turn rate is not.
Sometimes i wish it wasnt when u face retard trolls changing the game to extra while doing 99 gates 3 probes rush or just the classic terran changing the game to extra when u have to micro mutas.
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Does that happen to you a lot? I have never had that happen to me (at least yet).
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EPT
