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Source:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20757485677
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/can-starcraft-remastered-revive-an-esport?linkId=40657960
Wasn’t matchmaking going to be available for free?
We did plan to make Matchmaking and Ladder a feature for both StarCraft: Remastered and the StarCraft Anthology as mentioned in a post by one of our developers in April. That position became untenable over the months of creating, researching, and testing how the system would be used in practical application.
As a result, Matchmaking and Ladder are exclusive to Remastered. We believe this is the best way to preserve the integrity of the play experience. We want to encourage a healthy, competitive ecosystem for StarCraft, and this measure will limit griefing of new and lower-level players.
Senior producer Pete Stilwell:
“Bringing in the new matchmaking feature lets a new generation of players experience StarCraft in a way more accessible way, in a way that's more expected of today's era,” Davies explains. “Hopefully that will attract new players and new generations to StarCraft.”
“When you think about it, StarCraft's been around for nearly 20 years, and there's been a very vibrant and active ecosystem that has naturally grown up around the game, so for us, with the remaster, we've been ensuring that we don't break anything, and that includes what that eSports scene looks like,” Bridenbecker adds. “Our matchmaking for StarCraft Remastered is global: it's a worldwide matchmaker, and will let the top players of various regions play against each other.”
Plus GG together in Busan on 7/30:
![[image loading]](https://image.redbull.com/rbcom/052/2017-08-04/89252c12-b52f-43bd-8567-e969bc3bb20b/0010/1/1600/1067/1/starcraft-remastered-stage-beach-busan.jpg.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://image.redbull.com/rbcom/052/2017-08-04/965a517a-107c-4589-b933-52e6cad23b65/0012/0/0/0/1191/1787/1600/1/starcraft-remastered-stage-beach-busan-2.jpg.jpg)
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I love the idea of a worldwide matchmaker, but I don't know how the ping spikes will impact the gameplay. I've seen some tweets of Ret about this subject and I'm quite suspicious now..
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United Kingdom20277 Posts
“Our matchmaking for StarCraft Remastered is global: it's a worldwide matchmaker, and will let the top players of various regions play against each other.”
I hope that's opt in! Even a quarter of EU to Korea ping is annoying in a competitive game.
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rofl... not one player with low ping wants to play bw with high ping player on high lat...
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Maybe the client can somehow check ping of potential player before setting up game, and abandoning if too high? That way you could have global match making and hopefully no lag.
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This tweet in particular scared me
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I really hope that Blizzard understands the importance of lag free environment. Global matchmaking is a dream but with lag it's a nightmare.
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honestly playing on iccup is lagger than playing on fish as someone currently in texas... i can't even notice the lag on fish while microing. in fact, when i has living in korea for a little bit the games were laggier in pcbangs than they were back home in the states lol. not sure if SCR is laggier or something? i havent played it or 1.18/1.19, but this was never really a problem for me in 1.16.1
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Someone did some tests and showed that TR8 << L2 << TR12 (from worse to better*). This is why a lot of people experience either lag or huge delay on unit response. I guess it also shows that my intuition of turn rate 12 on extra high feeling much better than TR8, and more like L2, was correct.
I think a global match maker is possible but it can not be done with a static turn rate. This will kill the ladder for everyone.
* https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758576823
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The problem is, if Blizzard decides to do regional match making then Ret would be complaining that he can't find a game instead of lag. It's a tricky situation and not one I know the best solution for. When Remastered comes out next week I imagine it will be easy to find a game, but how about a month afterwards? I would be shocked if the population is still as popular outside Korea.
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damn Blizzard, making Matchmaking only available for SC:R to earn more $$. What a cheap move. Didn't we have this platform back in the past where we could play ladder for free, on the maps we preferred? I dimly recall it's name was ICCUp. /sarcasm
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Same here, while my ping on fish is decent (about 200) it seems the actual response in game is sluggish. For some reason it feels much slower than when I play overwatch on the Korean server (from eastern Canada).
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China6327 Posts
Keep in mind currently the players in SCR are very limited, when it releases the mass number of players will likely be able to make matchmaking better.
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I am very skeptical of SC:R.
Ive read and seen comments of a lot of people point out a lot of problems and questionable decisions by Blizzard regarding SC:R.
Seeing how Blizzard has been "monetizing" SC2 and to a lesser extent Heros of the Storm I cant help but feel that SC:R is just a money/power grab.
Money in terms of fixing almost nothing and asking 15 bucks for it and power to make sure something like Kespa does not happen again.
I hope I will be wrong, cus other way they only thing its gonna make is lower the player base in Iccup/fish.
EDIT: You guys remember when Blizzard said that HOTS and LOTV would be for free when it comes to the multiplayer after the outcry of dividing SC2 into 3 parts? Oh, and HOTS and LOTV was supposed to be priced as an expansion?
I sure do.
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Was the lag really that bad ret? I haven't watched your stream but I watched TT1 and he didn't seem to lag vs koreans
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On August 10 2017 00:00 Cele wrote:
damn Blizzard, making Matchmaking only available for SC:R to earn more $$. What a cheap move. Didn't we have this platform back in the past where we could play ladder for free, on the maps we preferred? I dimly recall it's name was ICCUp. /sarcasm
which part of your sentence is the /sarcasm for ?
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Mmm.. i wish we had /ping option available in client and during the game. That'll also help tournament holders to verify which player is lagging.
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Well if both players are lagging then what's the problem? You both get the same handicap.
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On August 10 2017 00:48 orvinreyes wrote:Well if both players are lagging then what's the problem? You both get the same handicap.
It's unpleasant playing with lag, especially when you're used to playing with little to none. It also makes things like Muta micro next to impossible if the lag is high enough.
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I don't agree with Ret's tweet. I mean if we're talking about competitive games fine, but this is ladder games.
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On August 10 2017 00:48 orvinreyes wrote:Well if both players are lagging then what's the problem? You both get the same handicap.
Because lag destroys execution, tilt players and also tend to make people play different than they would under normal circumstances. Some people are also used to playing under heavy lag, whereas others rarely play laggy games. On top of that you can add that heavy lag is simply painful and takes all the fun away.
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On August 10 2017 00:42 739 wrote:
Mmm.. i wish we had /ping option available in client and during the game. That'll also help tournament holders to verify which player is lagging.
Is that even possible in a P2P game? Shouldn't both players have the same ping?
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all hail blizzard for their bullcrap
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On August 10 2017 00:01 WGT-Baal wrote:
Same here, while my ping on fish is decent (about 200) it seems the actual response in game is sluggish. For some reason it feels much slower than when I play overwatch on the Korean server (from eastern Canada).
the technology simply isn't there yet! what's so hard to understand!?
xD
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On August 10 2017 00:16 iloveav wrote:
Money in terms of fixing almost nothing and asking 15 bucks for it
I'd probably pay 15$ even just for not having to fuck with portforwarding ever again.
- then there's beautiful graphics
- functional matchmaking
- adjustable hotkeys
To me, it's 15$ very well spent.
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On August 10 2017 00:48 orvinreyes wrote:Well if both players are lagging then what's the problem? You both get the same handicap.
?????
Move your arm a bit. Your arm doesnt move. Kiss your loved ones. Doesnt happen.
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Nice move Blizz. I guess i can wait another 6 months to get it cheaper.
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On August 10 2017 01:33 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Nice move Blizz. I guess i can wait another 6 months to get it cheaper.
Now thats sad. Have you considered FundMe? What kind of ruminate thread is this anyway? Are you guys gonna talk about the 15 for another 10 pages? Do you guys realize that people pay thousands of moneys for CS:GO gloves?
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It probably won't go on sale. 15$ is generous a price enough.
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United Kingdom20277 Posts
On August 10 2017 00:01 WGT-Baal wrote:
Same here, while my ping on fish is decent (about 200) it seems the actual response in game is sluggish. For some reason it feels much slower than when I play overwatch on the Korean server (from eastern Canada).
Very different styles of games engines, the ones that BW and SC2 use add a lot of lag time to actions even before going through ping. If you take a high speed camera and very fast screen you can measure input lag in the 13-20ms range for csgo and overwatch but if you do the same on the starcraft games it's more like 80ms plus ping for a unit response iirc~
That is generally considered to be an acceptable tradeoff for the other advantages of the engine style but it does make it especially bad to play with higher pings or inconsistent connections which increase that delay further
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On August 10 2017 01:33 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Nice move Blizz. I guess i can wait another 6 months to get it cheaper.
Pathetic lol.
I would prefer regional matchmaking to having lag. I dont think finding a match will be a problem once the game fully releases.
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I experience more lag in scr compared with 1.16 so I am wondering if blizzard can optimise the engine a bit more....
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The good ol bait and switch!
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Is it even possible to have global matchmaking and not have lag? Is there anything Blizzard can do to mitigate this problem? The reason why Koreans can play with Turn rate up to 16 and not have problems is because 1) close proximity to each other because it is a small country, and 2) their internet infrastructure is better (whatever this means). Idk how much of this is correct.
a source (from 2010...): http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/03/31/broadband.south.korea/index.html
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not need to be Einstein,if you lag vs China,Korea,Vietnam 8 years ago u will lag today,it is not blizzard fault,thats how internet works,if you wanna improve your conection to play with koreans,use a good VPN not the first that comes to you for free in Google.how blizzard fix lag to you? well pray the player pool from your country will increase u will play lag less games,but if you wanna play with Lee min CHun from Korea and u are living in Europe dont expect some magic.
also all of you still saying that payin 15$ for MM,is bullshit,Fixed ports,not more 50 launchers,not more crashed img when u open the game,so many new options,new graphics(not Something was asked for)but im happy u will be abble to play this game in modern O.S without troubles.is not perfect atm ok.but 1.16 is not perfect,maybe you think it is.but thats bullsh*t aswell.
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Global matchmaking/ladder would be nice, but I don't feel like it's very feasible given existing latency issues...
The worst part is that there's no way to ensure that two players on opposite sides of the globe will "meet in a middle" serverwise and "balance" the latency.
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man manald is gonna get rich
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On August 10 2017 00:41 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 00:00 Cele wrote:
damn Blizzard, making Matchmaking only available for SC:R to earn more $$. What a cheap move. Didn't we have this platform back in the past where we could play ladder for free, on the maps we preferred? I dimly recall it's name was ICCUp. /sarcasm which part of your sentence is the /sarcasm for ?
the "dimly recalling it's name as ICCUp" part. I was very active in the ICCUp staff up until the SC:R announcement.
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Lag makes ZVT even more imbalanced. TERRAN just has to basically mass some BIO and a move to my 3rd or whatever while I can't muta micro properly with lag.
I've never been able to play a turn rate 16 game; it is super slow. Even when playing someone in California from inside california
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Try high lat/extra high lat in 16 turn rate. It's amazing even on extra high lat. Honestly 12 turn rate on high lat is sooo much better than 8.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On August 10 2017 01:24 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 00:48 orvinreyes wrote:Well if both players are lagging then what's the problem? You both get the same handicap. ????? Move your arm a bit. Your arm doesnt move. Kiss your loved ones. Doesnt happen.
damn, that's dark! :O
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On August 10 2017 05:11 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 00:41 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 10 2017 00:00 Cele wrote:
damn Blizzard, making Matchmaking only available for SC:R to earn more $$. What a cheap move. Didn't we have this platform back in the past where we could play ladder for free, on the maps we preferred? I dimly recall it's name was ICCUp. /sarcasm which part of your sentence is the /sarcasm for ? the "dimly recalling it's name as ICCUp" part. I was very active in the ICCUp staff up until the SC:R announcement.
Did you have automated matchmaking in iccup?
Did blizzard suddenly ban iccup?
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Damnit, I really really wanted to play BW ladder, but I'm not gonna buy it, cause I'm cheap and broke. QQ
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 10 2017 07:28 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:11 Cele wrote:On August 10 2017 00:41 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 10 2017 00:00 Cele wrote:
damn Blizzard, making Matchmaking only available for SC:R to earn more $$. What a cheap move. Didn't we have this platform back in the past where we could play ladder for free, on the maps we preferred? I dimly recall it's name was ICCUp. /sarcasm which part of your sentence is the /sarcasm for ? the "dimly recalling it's name as ICCUp" part. I was very active in the ICCUp staff up until the SC:R announcement. Did you have automated matchmaking in iccup? Did blizzard suddenly ban iccup?
Yeah when did iCCUP have automatchmaking?
I also remember lots of people (including me for a while) couldn't host and also iCCUP map pool became awful each week as it was limited thanks to the iCCUP staff seemingly only caring about DOTA.
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seriously people who say they can't afford 15$, just fast on water/minerals for 2 days, gonna be good for your body and you can buy Starcraft
you're welcome
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On August 10 2017 09:55 ROOTFayth wrote:
seriously people who say they can't afford 15$, just fast on water/minerals for 2 days, gonna be good for your body and you can buy Starcraft
you're welcome
SC:Fast
but how much green tea and honey do I have to eat?
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On August 10 2017 08:02 beg wrote:
Damnit, I really really wanted to play BW ladder, but I'm not gonna buy it, cause I'm cheap and broke. QQ
What a fitting username Lol
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On August 10 2017 10:09 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 09:55 ROOTFayth wrote:
seriously people who say they can't afford 15$, just fast on water/minerals for 2 days, gonna be good for your body and you can buy Starcraft
you're welcome SC:Fast but how much green tea and honey do I have to eat?
wow calm down, green tea and honey too expensive yo
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Too busto for a $15 dollar game, dam that's rough. You live under a bridge and only eat off the dollar menu?
Using the computer from the library to access TL?
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On August 10 2017 11:00 traxamillion wrote:
Too busto for a $15 dollar game, dam that's rough. You live under a bridge and only eat off the dollar menu?
Using the computer from the library to access TL?
Probably just children with frugal parents. I grew up the same, and it very much makes you see things overpriced just because you know if something costs anything, your parents aren't going to buy it for you. It's wishful thinking.
Now that I'm a successful adult member of the workforce, $15 seems very cheap; but I do sympathise for those in the position I grew up in.
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yeah I'm just kind of assuming nobody on TL is below like 15 yrs old
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On August 10 2017 09:55 ROOTFayth wrote:
seriously people who say they can't afford 15$, just fast on water/minerals for 2 days, gonna be good for your body and you can buy Starcraft
you're welcome
I would lose all my gains.
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Blizzard should add Iccup to supported servers, since they are being bitches and don't want people who don't want to pay for RM to be able to get matchmaking, atleast they need a ranking system for new people to not get obliterated match after match
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On August 10 2017 12:22 MymSlorm wrote:
Blizzard should add Iccup to supported servers, since they are being bitches and don't want people who don't want to pay for RM to be able to get matchmaking, atleast they need a ranking system for new people to not get obliterated match after match
the problem with bw is that matchmaking wont fix that problem
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On August 10 2017 11:57 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah I'm just kind of assuming nobody on TL is below like 15 yrs old
The demographics of this site would be interesting. Certainly the release of SC2 would have reduced the average age I think.
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So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise.
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Maybe, but even then SC2 was released 7 years ago. I imagine most of those players are now in their early 20's if they started playing at 13.
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On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise.
to be fair it's a small very vocal minority who are whining about that, I mean I don't know how they can afford an internet connection anyway
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Are there people really complaining about $15? C'mon man that's like lunch.
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On August 10 2017 13:32 blade55555 wrote:
Maybe, but even then SC2 was released 7 years ago. I imagine most of those players are now in their early 20's if they started playing at 13.
Yeah but plenty of kids just entering their teens now, if they pick up SC2 will likely visit here.
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On August 10 2017 00:57 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 00:42 739 wrote:
Mmm.. i wish we had /ping option available in client and during the game. That'll also help tournament holders to verify which player is lagging. Is that even possible in a P2P game? Shouldn't both players have the same ping? Yeah ping command doesn't show the quality of the connection between players, but just the individual players connection to the gaming server (which won't effect the ingame, you can even lose the connection to server and still continue playing with perfect latency).
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If they end up making the default turn rate 12 the ladder will be unplayable, which is what koreans want. I dunno why we can't adjust the turn rate ingame, that would solve a lot of issues.
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On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise.
We dont have that...yet.
We dont know if we will have that.
We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard.
I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents).
Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player.
Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding.
I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it.
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My guess is in the future blizz will make scr free for everybody but with paid ingame features, skins and w/e else to make money from it. Reason? To increase popularity and userbase outside of Korea when the hype will die.
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On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it.
Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking.
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On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking.
Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered.
I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system.
Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?".
There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works?
Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system.
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On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20754336617
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On August 10 2017 19:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20754336617
That sure looks like a move in the right direction. Hope I get proven wrong more often :D.
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On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system.
It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie.
The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway.
Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers.
And lobbies are still available anyway.
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Imagine: How many players active in gloabal pool after Aug 14?
Now I can see about 15k users at peak around 8pm on BN Korea.
I predict there will be 3k+ players from China will play on BN TW or Asia.
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Whelp, time to get a good VPN as soon as I shave off that rust.
Pretty much 3/4 games with koreans used to lag for me on iccup, no reason why it'd get better...
If matchmaking is truly global then the ratio of korean to non-korean will be really skewed.
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On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway.
It s only a good system if you play often and quite a lot. As it requires a lot if data for the system to set in. Also bear in mind the regional variations in sc2.
In sc:r the system will have to adapt to a worldwide community. In sc2 I never felt like the ranks had any meaning, granted it might just be the game being more volatile. In the end since I dont have time to play very often it was either stomping a much weaker player or getting destroyed by a much stronger one and this is one of the reasons I quit sc2.
There are a lot of advantages to matchmaking but it s not a perfect system, especially considering the age of the veteran players who dont have a lot of time to regularly.
Also the problems caused by lag in a worldwide laddee system is real. I m in Canada now but it s better to pkay koreans than latin Americans in that regard... How will those freeloss/freewin affect the mmr system is still unknown. We ll have to see it in action.
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For me in sc2 matchmaking was not so much the problem as the difficulty to read the ranking system and the game itself, in w3 there was matchmaking, it involved quite a bit of grinding to get to the "levels" where you'd match against good players, so it rewarded grinding I think, that's the only part I didn't like but I think there were few resets? so
In Iccup I got tired of the resets because the system requires a lot of playing to get to your level, on the way there the experience is kinda erratic because you'd play against players of your skill, or higher+, or lower+, at any rank in different proportions before the one that represents ur skill level where you will play ppl your level + stronger, so every time there is a reset you have to reclimb there takes lot of time.. I got tired of that, so I'm expecting something that matches ppl better from the matchmaking and from the experience playing w3 or sc2 ladder yeah I think the matchmaking did that part better (than Iccup)
not to mention on iccup it takes a little while to find a game, its a private server there will always be less people... and the low ranks are not well represented maybe (I mean D+/C- have always been way farther beyond beginner which D- is supposed to represent?) so the incentive is prob low for newcomers to play there?_? wonder how easy it is to get (good) games at D- nowadays
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On August 10 2017 17:05 TT1 wrote:
If they end up making the default turn rate 12 the ladder will be unplayable, which is what koreans want. I dunno why we can't adjust the turn rate ingame, that would solve a lot of issues.
matchmaking could do it auto
same server vs same server 12 or 16
different servers vs each other 8
easy peasy as a programmer i wanna see the programmer telling me it cant be done i mean teh game will see where the players come from xD
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France9034 Posts
On August 10 2017 13:32 blade55555 wrote:
Maybe, but even then SC2 was released 7 years ago.
I just took a big punch right in the face.
As for the price, I'll happily spend $15 to get SC:R if it's released and there's no major issues.
Why are people so mad about the pricetag though? I sense it's mostly because some feature that wasn't supposed to be exclusive to SC:R is now exclusive to SC:R.
I would like to know why exactly are people complaining that they could have had new stuff for free, but for some reasons (no idea which exactly) Blizzard switched and now that stuff costs money. Well, that's unfortunate, but at the same time not unreasonable to make people pay for work they've done instead of just putting it out for free, is it?
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On August 11 2017 00:49 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 13:32 blade55555 wrote:
Maybe, but even then SC2 was released 7 years ago. I just took a big punch right in the face. As for the price, I'll happily spend $15 to get SC:R if it's released and there's no major issues. Why are people so mad about the pricetag though? I sense it's mostly because some feature that wasn't supposed to be exclusive to SC:R is now exclusive to SC:R. I would like to know why exactly are people complaining that they could have had new stuff for free, but for some reasons (no idea which exactly) Blizzard switched and now that stuff costs money. Well, that's unfortunate, but at the same time not unreasonable to make people pay for work they've done instead of just putting it out for free, is it?
The issue is that Blizzard said for a long time it would be free (ladder) and it suddenly changed without warning or explanation. Then they explained a bit but it felt more like PR. There is no problem with the price or anything, just the way it happened. In a sense, some people think that since they didnt keep that promise, what else can they go back on ? Skins, gameplay...
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On August 11 2017 01:46 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 00:49 Ragnarork wrote:On August 10 2017 13:32 blade55555 wrote:
Maybe, but even then SC2 was released 7 years ago. I just took a big punch right in the face. As for the price, I'll happily spend $15 to get SC:R if it's released and there's no major issues. Why are people so mad about the pricetag though? I sense it's mostly because some feature that wasn't supposed to be exclusive to SC:R is now exclusive to SC:R. I would like to know why exactly are people complaining that they could have had new stuff for free, but for some reasons (no idea which exactly) Blizzard switched and now that stuff costs money. Well, that's unfortunate, but at the same time not unreasonable to make people pay for work they've done instead of just putting it out for free, is it? The issue is that Blizzard said for a long time it would be free (ladder) and it suddenly changed without warning or explanation. Then they explained a bit but it felt more like PR. There is no problem with the price or anything, just the way it happened. In a sense, some people think that since they didnt keep that promise, what else can they go back on ? Skins, gameplay...
I have an inkling feeling that they never intended for it to be compatible with the original game, meaning they outright lied about the issue in order to fuel the hype surrounding the remastered game.
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On August 11 2017 00:08 Drake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 17:05 TT1 wrote:
If they end up making the default turn rate 12 the ladder will be unplayable, which is what koreans want. I dunno why we can't adjust the turn rate ingame, that would solve a lot of issues. matchmaking could do it auto same server vs same server 12 or 16 different servers vs each other 8 easy peasy as a programmer i wanna see the programmer telling me it cant be done i mean teh game will see where the players come from xD
I would say some country 12 and other countries 8 tbh.
Koreans will probably have the final say after all, they will end up being the majority and are the best players by far
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On August 11 2017 03:18 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 01:46 WGT-Baal wrote:On August 11 2017 00:49 Ragnarork wrote:On August 10 2017 13:32 blade55555 wrote:
Maybe, but even then SC2 was released 7 years ago. I just took a big punch right in the face. As for the price, I'll happily spend $15 to get SC:R if it's released and there's no major issues. Why are people so mad about the pricetag though? I sense it's mostly because some feature that wasn't supposed to be exclusive to SC:R is now exclusive to SC:R. I would like to know why exactly are people complaining that they could have had new stuff for free, but for some reasons (no idea which exactly) Blizzard switched and now that stuff costs money. Well, that's unfortunate, but at the same time not unreasonable to make people pay for work they've done instead of just putting it out for free, is it? The issue is that Blizzard said for a long time it would be free (ladder) and it suddenly changed without warning or explanation. Then they explained a bit but it felt more like PR. There is no problem with the price or anything, just the way it happened. In a sense, some people think that since they didnt keep that promise, what else can they go back on ? Skins, gameplay... I have an inkling feeling that they never intended for it to be compatible with the original game, meaning they outright lied about the issue in order to fuel the hype surrounding the remastered game.
is there anyone who based their decison to purchase the remaster based on original game's compatibility with the remaster?
it's ridiculous to imply or state that blizzard intentionally misled people... because it's such an insignificant issue for the majority of their customers.
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$15 dollars to bring a game from 1998 to current day standards seems feasible. Keep in mind the game was engineered at at time were most players were using Dial-Up as their primary Internet connection.
I don't think Blizzard is doing it for the money, but rather to support the Korean eSports scene. If they sell per-say, a million copies of StarCraft - Remastered, it is still an insignificant amount of revenue compared to say their Monthly WoW income.
I for one am very thankful and happy to pay 15 dollars to have an updated interface, widescreen support and a built in MMR and ladder system.
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You cant have free matchmaking, there would be hard to punish cheaters if the game was free. If you get banned now, you haft to atleast spend some money to buy a new game.
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On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway.
That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't.
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Pretty excited for automatchmaking on public server with great looking graphics tbh :O just hope game runs well :O
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On August 09 2017 18:53 Endymion wrote:
honestly playing on iccup is lagger than playing on fish as someone currently in texas... i can't even notice the lag on fish while microing. in fact, when i has living in korea for a little bit the games were laggier in pcbangs than they were back home in the states lol. not sure if SCR is laggier or something? i havent played it or 1.18/1.19, but this was never really a problem for me in 1.16.1 Yeah. ICCUP was already global, so whats the problem?
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On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't.
IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that..
How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO
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On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't. IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that.. How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO
Oh yea. I'm clearly bashing right now. Please don't bring that silly SC2-laden discussion back - it's irrelevant.
More to the point - who cares If someone only plays 1 match up? What if that is what they like to do? Not like they can go pro or hurt your chances of going pro. Aren't you doing exactly what you complained about by trying to control how other people play the game, or at least imposing your personal standards on it? The hipocrosy is rich.
Also if you think that the lobby system somehow helped you avoid cheese, you're dead wrong. Any person who made it to C- on ICCup had to weather dozens of cheeses in their competitive gaming career, even if they themselves cheesed. Cheese is present throughout all Brood War, from Juan123dePeru@ICCup to 5 pool in ProLeague. And that's perfectly fine with me. The inability to ask someone for a rematch and have it count/get your points back, the inability to play a predetermined BoX series, to ban someone who lags extremely hard and wins because people either forfeit or can't micro at frame by frame rates, those are the things that piss me off about the exclusion of lobbies from ladder. I wouldn't even care if they were only allowed on SC:R, at least then people would have some control over their gaming experience.
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On August 11 2017 06:45 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't. IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that.. How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO Oh yea. I'm clearly bashing right now. Please don't bring that silly SC2-laden discussion back - it's irrelevant. More to the point - who cares If someone only plays 1 match up? What if that is what they like to do? Not like they can go pro or hurt your chances of going pro. Aren't you doing exactly what you complained about by trying to control how other people play the game, or at least imposing your personal standards on it? The hipocrosy is rich.
SC2 wasn't even mentioned, still bashes it, denies bashing
You can still play custom games with 1 matchup if you really want.
Or stay on iccup.
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On August 11 2017 08:57 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 06:45 Jealous wrote:On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't. IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it. Matchmaking ladder solves the issue because you can't only play one matchup to climb, you can't avoid the combat-ex's of the world so you better get good at defending cheeses.. and not to mention you can't abuse with your friend to get your B+ which you were one game away from, stuff like that.. How many people did you know who somehow reached C+ or B only playing one matchup, or avoiding mirror matchups?? Happened all the time back when I played iccup. Can't do that with real MM ladders; you better learn to be well rounded or you stay where you belong in diamond. Its a much better system IMO Oh yea. I'm clearly bashing right now. Please don't bring that silly SC2-laden discussion back - it's irrelevant. More to the point - who cares If someone only plays 1 match up? What if that is what they like to do? Not like they can go pro or hurt your chances of going pro. Aren't you doing exactly what you complained about by trying to control how other people play the game, or at least imposing your personal standards on it? The hipocrosy is rich. SC2 wasn't even mentioned, still bashes it, denies bashing You can still play custom games with 1 matchup if you really want. Or stay on iccup.
Please check yourself. He directly referenced the recent "What wrecked SC2?" thread. I said that it was irrelevant and didn't say a damn word about it more. Didn't even say anything about the game, only the thread that was about the game, and the rest of the content of both posts was about this system in conjunction with Brood War and its cons. So please, get off my nuts with all that, both of you. This has nothing to do with SC2, your victim complexes don't apply here.
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I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win.
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On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win.
They 100% penalize failed cheese/cheese scouts on iccup. using their report system is a pain but you can get points from it too ya know.
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On August 11 2017 05:54 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 19:23 shin ken wrote:On August 10 2017 18:28 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 17:48 [nkc]moon wrote:On August 10 2017 17:30 iloveav wrote:On August 10 2017 13:31 Dante08 wrote:
So we have:
- Awesome new HD graphics
- Fixed portforwarding issues
- Cross compatibility between clients (SCR can play with 1.19)
- Automated match-making
- Support for modern OS
- No change to gameplay
- Chance to revive the Korean BW and maybe even the foreign BW scene
All the above and people complain about paying $15 for it and Blizzard being money hungry. Sometimes TL never fails to surprise. We dont have that...yet. We dont know if we will have that. We know there are some issues now, like disconnects from server, having to use blizzards app, no launchers support, no bot support (for chat channels). Note I dot have personal experience with those, only relaying what I heard. I will believe it when I see it. Also, matchmaking is a very dubious system. I much more prefer the ICCUP system where you get to basically decide yourself at what level you want to play (and so do your opponents). Matchmaking means one thing only: That someone at blizzard thinks they know better than you who you should play against. Someone who most likely is NOT a player. Btw, I would not complain about the 15 dollars if I could use it on Iccup or if they ONLY fixed port forwarding. I complain because they are taking it into their ecosystem, where you either go with it or leave it. Of course they know better than you who you should play against its a match making algorithm that has been nearly perfected. And im pretty sure you are still able to use the ICCUP system as well as play matchmaking. Based on my experience? its not perfected at all. We will see once it gets out rolling in Remastered. I am not saying its utter garbage either. I still prefer to have that choice myself rather than giving it to some automated system. Also, what evidence do you have to say that "Of course they know better" and "has been nearly perfected?". There is a big difference from having a subjective view of something and claiming objective knowledge of how something works. Do you know how the matchmaking system works? Where does that blind trust come from? I am not trying to attack you just figure out why you have all that trust in an automatic system. It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie. The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. Unfortunately it also prevents bad players from deliberately challenging good players but if you're dedicated you should climb the ladder anyway. Of course lobbies have many advantages as well like choosing to play only a certain matchup or a certain map or only certain players but you can really trust Blizzard in delivering a robust 1on1 matchmaker these days. They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers. And lobbies are still available anyway. That would be great and all if you could ladder via lobby like you've been able to on most preceding BW ladders but you can't.
Laddering via picking your matches, maps, and opponents is stupid/highly abuseable and always has been. Great for its time and I loved Iccup but it's 2017 now.
Like the dude said, lobbies are still available. Just not for the purpose of gaining ladder points
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On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win.
Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning.
Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though.
The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time.
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On August 11 2017 06:05 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 18:53 Endymion wrote:
honestly playing on iccup is lagger than playing on fish as someone currently in texas... i can't even notice the lag on fish while microing. in fact, when i has living in korea for a little bit the games were laggier in pcbangs than they were back home in the states lol. not sure if SCR is laggier or something? i havent played it or 1.18/1.19, but this was never really a problem for me in 1.16.1 Yeah. ICCUP was already global, so whats the problem?
iccup had a good standpoint maybe i dont know but iccup fish etc had always way less lag then official blizzard servers
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Just make a little chat box for when the game is loading...
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On August 11 2017 06:29 SnowfaLL wrote:
IMO as discussed in the other thread, a lot of the issues of "old guard stuck in their ways" bashing everyone for playing "different" is partly an issue of lobby-based ladders like iccup allowed it.
[...]
It's a highly sophisticated system that uses MMR and can rate your performance better than you could yourself (if they take the system from SC2/WC3). It's easy to misjudge yourself because your either overconfident or too cautious, but MMR doesn't lie.[...]
The system also prevents good players from deliberately stomping noobs to boost their broken ego. [...]They have 15 years of experience with them, probably more than most developers.
And lobbies are still available anyway.[...]
Re-arragend and shortened the parts that really do bug me. If you don't want to read much, here's my response in short:
After 10+ years of being an organizer for ladder-related events and ICCup I can honestly tell you that none of your points have a place in reality. Noob bashing is still possible, if you really want to do it. The lobby system as of now is not comparable to older systems, and it really has some major downsides, especially when it comes to somewhat "social" aspects of the game.
The long version:
Players approach the ladder with very different ideas. Most ladders in the past made it pretty clear that ladders are there to train and perfect your games against as much opponents as possible. Therefore most of your arguments were invalid, as WGT, PGT and ICCup achieved this very past when still having a decent population size. It didn't matter if there were people stomping newbs, as newbs should only sign up to face anything thrown at them. Ladders were never there for them to just have a fun banter with random people. Same goes for "one match up" players - maybe they just wanted to improve in that particular aspect. Nothing wrong with it. Nobody ever got anything from his rank. Any qualifier based on the ranking system was supervized and had special rules - so match up pickers wouldn't hurt that either. Any player, who actually was offended by those people - bashers and pickers - never understood the idea of a ladder in the first place. The rank never mattered, improving your own game mattered, the ranks were just a good indicator to check your own progress, nothing more, nothing less.
And this is my problem with the Blizzard ladder. The way it is implemented right now makes me ask who it should serve: the average player? Maybe. I guess it fulfills all criterias above, yet it is shown as if guarantees casuals and average players to just find "good" games, much as in "have a friendly banter". This collides with every idea old ladders had. Especially casuals will face the brutal grinding that a ladder is. They might only realize this after a few months, but believe me, it's not really motivating for most.
Meanwhile, casuals and beginners have no real chance to chat or engage with the player. It will all be rendered to some "hf gl" and one "gg". What really forged the community were interactions in the lobby and before, a prime example being WGTour. This used some Match Making alorithm, but still needed you to actually host in the Battle.net first. I don't see anything wrong with that.
As for the no abuse aspect: If I really feel like bashing newbs, I'll just lose a ton of games and drop down to the lowest parts of the game. It's not a huge task.
About the "perfect" MMR: If you have time to grind 30+ games to get ranked somewhat accurately for one match up, it seems nice. I had the problem in SCII that I wouldn't get good matches in 40 games - either big newbs with glaring mechanical mistakes, or players way above my own skill cap. I didn't have time to play more to maybe get more accurate rankings per season. Finding matches differently - near impossible. I don't want such a thing for casuals in BW.
I get you like the ladder, but it is really not being "elitist" to see major downsides to it.
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On August 11 2017 16:42 GeckoXp wrote:The lobby system as of now is not comparable to older systems, and it really has some major downsides, especially when it comes to somewhat "social" aspects of the game.
Woot do you mean? the lobby system of what compared to what older? what downsides?
ah you must mean the lobby system of sc2 compared to bw/wc3 ?
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can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue?
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On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:
Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time.
Is this the beginning of a grudge match?! :D
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Please I don't want to have chat channels like
Brood War xxx-1 and so on, it would be better to create channels with a ranking system, so a bunch of D players would sit in the same channel as other D players, the same goes for C,B,A,S, etc. or MMR somehow like, 1000 - 1300 = 1 channel but with xxx-1 you have rdm dudes from your country sitting there with different skilllevel so you just press the ladder button and smalltalk to them about god and flamewars like in wc3
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On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue?
It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency.
Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8).
From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right.
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On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win. Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning. Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though. The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time.
lol I never said cheese wont happen, but in a real matchmaking, cheese HAS to happen and you HAVE to get used to it. I'm perfectly fine with cheese, I focus very heavily on defending it and I often do very well on matchmaking because of that fact. I don't bitch and complain like most people "wahhh you didnt open up CC first, you are abusing the game!". So bring the cheese on, I wanna match up vs players who DONT only play TvP and leave at the scout of proxy gates to get their B+ rating.
I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
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On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right.
Yes I believe you are right on all points.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758576823
8 is basically unplayable and not fun for anyone competitive. 10 was manageable but it still had huge downsides for mutalisk micro etc. 12 would be ideal but unfortunately it will lag for a lot of people. I have to set it to extra high for Koreans to not lag with me.
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On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right.
it's odd that blizzard chose not just use #w or #l2 then since it has historically been smooth even for foreigners.. it's understandable that the koreans are frustrated about having bad MM servers. i'm betting eventually the fish ladder will require the higher "turn rate" to be considered a +/- mmr game
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On August 11 2017 23:09 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win. Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning. Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though. The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time. lol I never said cheese wont happen, but in a real matchmaking, cheese HAS to happen and you HAVE to get used to it. I'm perfectly fine with cheese, I focus very heavily on defending it and I often do very well on matchmaking because of that fact. I don't bitch and complain like most people "wahhh you didnt open up CC first, you are abusing the game!". So bring the cheese on, I wanna match up vs players who DONT only play TvP and leave at the scout of proxy gates to get their B+ rating. I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
if you havent played in that long your odds of beating Fana or his odds of getting that low on the ladder are pretty slim imo
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On August 11 2017 22:34 CrymeaTerran wrote:
Please I don't want to have chat channels like
Brood War xxx-1 and so on, it would be better to create channels with a ranking system, so a bunch of D players would sit in the same channel as other D players, the same goes for C,B,A,S, etc. or MMR somehow like, 1000 - 1300 = 1 channel but with xxx-1 you have rdm dudes from your country sitting there with different skilllevel so you just press the ladder button and smalltalk to them about god and flamewars like in wc3
you could have those channels options but making it default would make no sense for ppl who don't play much ladder, I typically play both fun games and ladder games (more ladder) and I prefer base chat channels to ladder-based, I don't want to lose the public chat chans^^ where you just see everyone and you can show ur cool icons you got from playing the game even out of ladder^^
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On August 11 2017 23:09 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 15:01 Jealous wrote:On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont even know what you are talking about. Anyways, just agree to disagree I guess. Iccup wasn't a perfect system as yes, you can get to C+ or further by avoiding people, playing one matchup and quitting when you scout any kind of "cheese" opening and not be penalized. You can't do that in real matchmaking. I don't see one reasonable explanation why the lobby system for ladder is actually legit other than potentially being able to set your lag options. Every other reason is BW elitists trying to "relive the old days".. Keep in mind, I played during the ladder challenges days with "slow bnet ladder".. I played during Cloud Ladder too, and leagues up to iccup. I've been around since those days, but ever since automated matchmaking came out (WC3) it was a life changer. WC3 was the best years of my gaming experience; being able to grind games on ladder to get your "level" then play in actual leagues for the real meaningful games (WC3L).
I suppose if iccup wasn't abuse-able, we wouldn't of had so many issues with the TSL qualifiers??? Oh, did you forget about that? Yea. Real skill is shown when multiple people are banned for having friends bump their account into the top rankings to qualify. Good ole' BW days there. What "victim complexes" can you use to defend that?
Anyways, as he said. If you dont like automated ladder, iccup isnt going away. Have fun on that instead. It'll save me some time having to play against people who are gonna just talk trash when I do a build thats not the latest cookie cutter out of korea, and say "OMG you are playing the game wrong, you cheater! My whole gameplan was to counter this one specific build!" when I win. Why are you being such a WC3 elitist? Oh wait, preferences in ladder systems have nothing to do with being an "elitist." Seriously, please chill the fuck out with that cliche buzzword. The more you use it, the more you dilute the actual meaning. Whoever said ICCup wasn't abusable? You're not even responding to any of my arguments, you're just creating your own arguments that you then counter with one-off anecdotal evidence about how a couple people got caught griming their way into one tournament. Yes, got caught. And how many of those that got caught went on to achieve fame and riches from their falsely inflated rank, or somehow negatively affected the chances of other players in doing so? Zero. Thanks for the strawman though. The last part of your post is just a joke. You're still going to get shit on by people for cheesing, that's never going away, even if every "BW elitist" dies. Even noobs who don't have the faintest idea of what "standard" is will call you "gay" and have slept with your mother. So don't pretend like this aging, dwindling population of "BW elitists" is the source of your problems and woes. I loved the implication that you'd beat me with your genius builds, I'd cry about it, and that's why I should stay on ICCup. As I already explained, if you think the lobby system (like ICCup's) somehow prevents cheeses from happening, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, since you more or less called me out, how about we see whether my silly Korean "cookie cutter" builds are up to snuff on 1.19 against your brilliant bag of builds? I won't complain if I lose, I promise; I've been beaten by enough Latin American strategic masters in my time. lol I never said cheese wont happen, but in a real matchmaking, cheese HAS to happen and you HAVE to get used to it. I'm perfectly fine with cheese, I focus very heavily on defending it and I often do very well on matchmaking because of that fact. I don't bitch and complain like most people "wahhh you didnt open up CC first, you are abusing the game!". So bring the cheese on, I wanna match up vs players who DONT only play TvP and leave at the scout of proxy gates to get their B+ rating. I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
Sure, let's ignore all of the counter-arguments from multiple people and just repeat our original points ad nauseam.
Lol k.
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On August 11 2017 14:08 SnowfaLL wrote:
I've played literally 5 games of BW since 2010. If you really want to play me, start laddering next week on remastered, I'm sure you'll run into me soon enough if you can survive the "difficulties" that you complain about with matchmaking and get up there.
Doesnt it strike YOU as odd that you've played so little and yet are making pronouncements about the tendencies found on iCCUP? A little self awareness can go a long way in life...On August 11 2017 23:34 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right. it's odd that blizzard chose not just use #w or #l2 then since it has historically been smooth even for foreigners.. it's understandable that the koreans are frustrated about having bad MM servers. i'm betting eventually the fish ladder will require the higher "turn rate" to be considered a +/- mmr game Honestly im expecting that blizzard will change the default turn rate on MM after the backlash, but only time will tell.
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No idea how i double posted...
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On August 11 2017 23:14 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right. Yes I believe you are right on all points. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/207585768238 is basically unplayable and not fun for anyone competitive. 10 was manageable but it still had huge downsides for mutalisk micro etc. 12 would be ideal but unfortunately it will lag for a lot of people. I have to set it to extra high for Koreans to not lag with me.
That test seems inaccurate to me, I wouldn't necessarily trust it outright. I'll try and run my own tests later today, but I would very much expect that an 8 turn rate at low latency is identical to lan latency (which, note, is slightly *faster* than ICCup/Fish would have been in 1.16, due to how the values they modify are used). In general I'd say that people are bad at identifying latency at these levels, and are very affected in their judgment by unrelated things.
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I've always thought 8 at low settings was pretty good, I don't feel as if it's a big difference from L2 like some people claim. But wtf do I know.
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I don't feel like 8 is bad either. 8 on high/extra high lat does suck. Would prefer 12 of course.
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8 on low has a very palpable delay for me. iCCup and fish feel better in general. Then for me turn rate 12 on extra high feels identical to fish/iccup and finally 12 feels amazing.
Looking forward to those tests by tec27!
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On August 11 2017 23:34 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2017 23:06 blade55555 wrote:On August 11 2017 21:44 Endymion wrote:
can someone please explain to me this "turn speed" debate??? i haven't played 1.18/1.19/SCR, is there some difference from 1.16.1 that makes the game less laggy or something at the cost of unit responsiveness? do the koreans want it to keep their matchmaking"korean only?" why doesn't 1.16.1 have this issue? It's just different latency options. 8 is the default, 12 is above what L2 latency was I believe (might be wrong on this) and 16 is super latency. Koreans want 12 because 12 turn rate is amazing (even on high/extra high lat it's better than 8). From what I gather from reading, 1.16 would be equivalent to I think 10 turn rate which doesn't exist in the new patches. Might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that's right. it's odd that blizzard chose not just use #w or #l2 then since it has historically been smooth even for foreigners.. it's understandable that the koreans are frustrated about having bad MM servers. i'm betting eventually the fish ladder will require the higher "turn rate" to be considered a +/- mmr game
I don't think they really changed much when it comes to the netcode, I think the difference is primarily from input handling (there were TONS of threads about how 1.18+ handle inputs differently from 1.16), since L2 differs from turn rate 8 and L1 differs from turn rate 12 by roughly the same amount (20-30ms according to the brief tests I did and posted on the b.net forums, nothing massively conclusive of course).
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Why don't they just consolidate all this turn rate / latency stuff into a simpler naming scheme and allow you to change the option in-game?
Latency 1 = Turn rate 16, Latency low
Latency 2 = Turn rate 16, Latency high
Latency 3 = Turn rate 16, Latency highest
Latency 4 = Turn rate 12, Latency low
...
Latency 9 = Turn rate 8, Latency highest
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On August 12 2017 06:18 Lazare1969 wrote:
Why don't they just consolidate all this turn rate / latency stuff into a simpler naming scheme and allow you to change the option in-game?
Latency 1 = Turn rate 16, Latency low
Latency 2 = Turn rate 16, Latency high
Latency 3 = Turn rate 16, Latency highest
Latency 4 = Turn rate 12, Latency low
...
Latency 9 = Turn rate 8, Latency highest
Because latency is controllable in-game (and needs to be), Turn rate is not.
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On August 12 2017 06:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2017 06:18 Lazare1969 wrote:
Why don't they just consolidate all this turn rate / latency stuff into a simpler naming scheme and allow you to change the option in-game?
Latency 1 = Turn rate 16, Latency low
Latency 2 = Turn rate 16, Latency high
Latency 3 = Turn rate 16, Latency highest
Latency 4 = Turn rate 12, Latency low
...
Latency 9 = Turn rate 8, Latency highest Because latency is controllable in-game (and needs to be), Turn rate is not.
Sometimes i wish it wasnt when u face retard trolls changing the game to extra while doing 99 gates 3 probes rush or just the classic terran changing the game to extra when u have to micro mutas.
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Does that happen to you a lot? I have never had that happen to me (at least yet).
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EPT
