EPTLike they wanna work on everything and do another ptr after that? That would mean the full release is still far away.
They wanna full release soon even in the current state? That would be weird
1.18 problems and suggestions/wishlist - Page 23
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Like they wanna work on everything and do another ptr after that? That would mean the full release is still far away. They wanna full release soon even in the current state? That would be weird | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4334 Posts
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MadJack
Peru357 Posts
I have really small hands, and its really hard and annoying having to go to press the "O" "U" "L" "I" "P" keys. Being able to have the hotkeys to your liking change the gameplay or give you an advantage, if anything, it removes any "self-disadvantage" you already had. It just makes you more comfortable playing the game and not frustrated cuz your lurkers didnt burrow cuz u missed a key the other side of the keyboard once, which believe me happened to me a lot back in the day and you actually lose the game after losing 6-7 lurkers without burrowing them. Hotkeys are like mouse and keyboard, they are just tools to play the game, they dont play the game for you. Customizing your hotkeys doesnt make you more skillful all of the sudden, it just makes you able to perform at the best of your capabilities. Same with mouse/keyboard, doesnt matter how expensive or cheap they are they just help you play the game more comfortable, they don play it for you. I remember in Bnet Attack show, when Bisu was a guest, they asked him something like "Why didnt you bring your equipment? are you that cocky?" and he responded that mouse and keyboard didnt matter to him, that if you claim you lost a game because of them, then you are just making excuses. Hotkeys customization is just a tool that lets you play the game more comfortably, nothing else, and there is no reason to not have it if "we have the technology". | ||
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
On April 13 2017 13:30 MadJack wrote: I am really sad that they are not going to implement the hotkey customization after all. I have really small hands, and its really hard and annoying having to go to press the "O" "U" "L" "I" "P" keys. Violinists have small hands too, you think it isn't annoying or difficult to shift into high positions? On April 13 2017 13:30 MadJack wrote: Being able to have the hotkeys to your liking change the gameplay or give you an advantage, if anything, it removes any "self-disadvantage" you already had. It just makes you more comfortable playing the game and not frustrated cuz your lurkers didnt burrow cuz u missed a key the other side of the keyboard once, which believe me happened to me a lot back in the day and you actually lose the game after losing 6-7 lurkers without burrowing them. Fat fingering a hotkey is like missing a note. Practice harder. On April 13 2017 13:30 MadJack wrote: Hotkeys are like mouse and keyboard, they are just tools to play the game, they dont play the game for you. Customizing your hotkeys doesnt make you more skillful all of the sudden, it just makes you able to perform at the best of your capabilities. Same with mouse/keyboard, doesnt matter how expensive or cheap they are they just help you play the game more comfortable, they don play it for you. Have you tried playing 1.18 at all? The custom hotkeys makes the game significantly easier, especially in a physical sense. Playing Brood War with the original hotkeys is like playing a musical instrument. You think we should change musical instruments that have been played for hundreds of years to be easier just because we have the technology or know how to do so? On April 13 2017 13:30 MadJack wrote: I remember in Bnet Attack show, when Bisu was a guest, they asked him something like "Why didnt you bring your equipment? are you that cocky?" and he responded that mouse and keyboard didnt matter to him, that if you claim you lost a game because of them, then you are just making excuses. Yet Flash uses a ruler and many other progamers including him are very particular regarding their mouse/keyboard choices and position. What he says about complainers though kind of sounds like those complaining about not having custom hotkeys. I'm sure he'd agree. "If you claim you lost a game because of custom hotkeys, then you are just making excuses." On April 13 2017 13:30 MadJack wrote: Hotkeys customization is just a tool that lets you play the game more comfortably, nothing else, and there is no reason to not have it if "we have the technology". It's part of the game and professional competition and has been for 19 years. Brood War's greatness is the sum of all of it's parts, whether you regard it so or not. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 13 2017 14:01 NickHotS wrote: Violinists have small hands too, you think it isn't annoying or difficult to shift into high positions? Fat fingering a hotkey is like missing a note. Practice harder. Have you tried playing 1.18 at all? The custom hotkeys makes the game significantly easier, especially in a physical sense. Playing Brood War with the original hotkeys is like playing a musical instrument. You think we should change musical instruments that have been played for hundreds of years to be easier just because we have the technology or know how to do so? Yet Flash uses a ruler and many other progamers including him are very particular regarding their mouse/keyboard choices and position. What he says about complainers though kind of sounds like those complaining about not having custom hotkeys. I'm sure he'd agree. "If you claim you lost a game because of custom hotkeys, then you are just making excuses." It's part of the game and professional competition and has been for 19 years. Brood War's greatness is the sum of all of it's parts, whether you regard it so or not. You should not do musical examples anymore. Higher positions on violin are much easier to play (up until VIII+, but that's another issue). Musical instruments are also indeed being constantly updated and streamlined for better performance. (Also, pros fatfinger sometimes too, which is why it was common practice in pro BW to remove all the keys except the ones you needed.) On the subject of hotkeys, I'm disappointed that in-game custom keybinds are off the table for now. Creations like The Core and other "Advanced keybinding" systems are pretty much proven to have little to no effect on the upper end of skill levels; pros will continue to be better and faster than everyone else. The only real danger is raising the skill floor, which naturally decreases the range skill. However, custom keybinds have little to no effect on the actual gameplay; being able to move more quickly around the keyboard increases APM slightly on the low end, but does not actually lower the actions required to play. In contrast, something like auto-mining or selection groups larger than 12 would significantly lower the actions required of the player. And don't ignore the fact that custom keybinds are 100% possible outside the game, and many players use them already. That hasn't broken anything. Making custom keybinds usable within the game makes no difference, it just saves people the headache of having to write a hotkey file. | ||
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
On April 13 2017 14:34 EsportsJohn wrote: You should not do musical examples anymore. Higher positions on violin are much easier to play (up until VIII+, but that's another issue). Musical instruments are also indeed being constantly updated and streamlined for better performance. I've played for nearly 20 years, I think I can do musical examples just fine, thank you! And...uhhh what? Have you ever even played a musical instrument? I was talking about the process of shifting your hand position from low positions to high positions at a breakneck speed; particularly, without flubbing a note (or a hotkey), which is exactly what makes BW default hotkeys way more difficult and impressive. If you think that's "easy," you're just flat out wrong. Shifting is the same skill people whine about not being able to perform when they have to reach for "P" or "O" hotkeys. They want to play Brood War in the violin equivalent of first position always and not have to use any physical ability or skill. I'm sorry, but that's not Brood War. Having to shift is part of what makes the game a fantastic, and even physical, eSport. Again, Brood War's greatness is the sum of all of it's parts. On April 13 2017 14:34 EsportsJohn wrote: (Also, pros fatfinger sometimes too, which is why it was common practice in pro BW to remove all the keys except the ones you needed.) There are still "difficult to reach hotkeys" next to each other that you need. Siege Mode and laying Spider Mines immediately comes to mind. So, this doesn't remotely trivialize it. On April 13 2017 14:34 EsportsJohn wrote: Musical instruments are also indeed being constantly updated and streamlined for better performance. Maybe "modern instruments", but we're talking about classical instruments here as a metaphor for a classic game that's been played this way for 19 years. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
a holier than thou tone is scarcely going to work to get your point across, I think that's the point of what john is saying. the unironic thing is that you will probably think of snapping back at this post too. they're merely opinions. that's all that they are. I'm a huge proponent for original hotkeys in games and learning them regardless of if they're optimized or not for higher level gameplay (I guarantee that was not an issue on the table when the game was created more than a decade before now). that is because these classic hotkeys are universal and you can go anywhere with the same keyboard and setup, or even play on somebody else's setup. however, there are cloud-saves or text-configs that are allowed and used in almost all games now. you can now do different setups to your heart's content and anywhere you go, they can come with you. I've called it anachronistic or pretty oldschool and unnecessary to keep custom keybinds off the table. old players will be fine, and new players can find additional ways to catch up. maybe that changes the way the game is seen (by these newer players) or played, slightly, but that is what is going to happen anyway. the golden days of turning on the TV and watching starcraft ever night, maybe seeing a 2-gate opening in PvZ as the standard, is pretty much gone and dusted. very few new players will have the same appreciation for what it took for us to get to this point (for many of the current foreign base, all it took was waiting and believing). the current level of play will always be easy to catch up to compared to what it took to get there. I don't think hotkeys make a damn difference regardless of your mentality surrounding that aspect of the game. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1766 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1571 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On April 13 2017 14:01 NickHotS wrote: Violinists have small hands too, you think it isn't annoying or difficult to shift into high positions? Fat fingering a hotkey is like missing a note. Practice harder. Have you tried playing 1.18 at all? The custom hotkeys makes the game significantly easier, especially in a physical sense. Playing Brood War with the original hotkeys is like playing a musical instrument. You think we should change musical instruments that have been played for hundreds of years to be easier just because we have the technology or know how to do so? Yet Flash uses a ruler and many other progamers including him are very particular regarding their mouse/keyboard choices and position. What he says about complainers though kind of sounds like those complaining about not having custom hotkeys. I'm sure he'd agree. "If you claim you lost a game because of custom hotkeys, then you are just making excuses." It's part of the game and professional competition and has been for 19 years. Brood War's greatness is the sum of all of it's parts, whether you regard it so or not. On April 13 2017 15:45 ICanFlyLow wrote: Being able to put every single hotkey in the game (spells, buildings, units, orders etc) on QWERASDF, does that really sound attractive to you guys? I think there's a reason why FIsh server wont allow for customizations. If it were up to you, we would go back to Warcraft 2 settings. (9 unit select and no rally points). We probably should make it so that if you select a building you have to type the name of the unit you want to build too. so you select a cc and type in "build Terran SCV". Wouldnt that be fun. Doesnt that sound more attractive than just ez-mode pressing a button and be done with it? On a serious note though. Keeping this arbitrary limitations will just scare new players away and really isnt a huge, if any, part of the gameplay mechanic. I for one played 5 years BW before sc2 got out and I was fine with BW hotkeys. But I wont come back if they dont allow for me to enjoy the game via custom hotkeys. I am getting old enough so that my hands start hurting if I play for too long and dont get me started on relearning my old habits. BW was great for many things, the hotkeys wasnt one of them. Oh and btw, you can feel free to disagree with this, even though I think its safe to say that the majority of BW and new players want custom hotkeys. You have your opinion I have mine. Also, what if there would be an option for colorblind people. Would your reply also be: "Broodwar is supposed to be insanely hard and frustrating to the point of madness. We can't water down the game which encapsulates the epitome challenging difficulty. " | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On April 13 2017 15:45 ICanFlyLow wrote: Being able to put every single hotkey in the game (spells, buildings, units, orders etc) on QWERASDF, does that really sound attractive to you guys? I think there's a reason why FIsh server wont allow for customizations. then let me ask you guys, are keybinds an important part of the skill floor to the game? If in LoL you were not allowed to smartcast, would that add to the game, or be an pretty unnecessary arbitration/rule to the skill that all players must learn in order to start playing well? (which is for some, playing with extra delay between actions) and if in LoL/DotA you were not allowed to keybind (this was the case for a while), does that mean that QWER (or Dota1's settings) is good enough of a setup for everyone? if it were that big of a deal, people would develop special keyboards to suit their needs right? like dvorak? at the start of mobas when smartcast was being added in, it became so common that people who did not use smartcast were seen at disadvantage. for better or worse, the smartcast feature is effective, and I myself am able to outplay players who pride themselves on faster reactions and faster keypresses with smartcast. for the general pop. of gamers, better plays were made because of the addition of smartcasting. is that not what you generally want? better play? I will say that I think current hotkey format generates or requires good habits for longtime players, but can still be improved. if the answer to the first question is yes, then I agree. but I don't think it needs to be this way. which is why I think this is such a topic. I think that a lot of players want to bring other players to their playing field where they already have comfort and will continue to have comfort. whereas making the game easier for themselves, some of these players will follow this line of convenience and it'll show in their play because they are still stumbling with hotkeys and making lazy plays. | ||
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Creager
Germany1895 Posts
Or imagine someone would force guitar players to stop using tabs as it's far too easy to play compared to classic notation? In the end, wether you like it or not, only the results count, which in your analogy would be the sound the audience hears when sitting at a concert. BW custom hotkeys aren't even a quality of life change for me, they are much needed nowadays. Remember it is a game, which means people should have fun while playing it. Having to deal with this atrocious hotkey layout is an uneccessary hurdle, especially for people that play both games. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
You still need the same amount of actions to play the game on the lvl you wanna play it. The only difference is that it's marginably easier to press a key on the left side of the keyboard. That's it. Like there are already different hotkeys depending on the game version, like different language versions have different hotkeys. That surely is a problem in your eyes then? I mean yes, the effect is > 0 for sure. But that's simply saying that there is a change. It says nothing about how big it really is. Hotkeys surely are on the smaller effect side though, like as i said you still need the same amount of actions to play the game. Do we really think these hotkeys make it so that players increase their apm by a lot? Which players would that even be? Is it bad if someone can play with a few apm more, say going from 100 to 120 because of it? I really don't see any reasonable argument against custom hotkeys tbh. | ||
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MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
I was never going to rebind anything myself, but I wouldn't care if someone else did. Conversely I guess I won't really care if no one is able to! | ||
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MadJack
Peru357 Posts
Thats your opinion, but saying that is like saying having a more expensive mouse than your oponent gives you an unfair advantage and modifies gameplay which is ridicolous. "Violinists have small hands too, you think it isn't annoying or difficult to shift into high positions?" There are different sized violins, guitars, pianos, etc. Just because a different violin would fit better for you than a "standard" violin, doesnt mean that you are automatically a better musician, and thats what you are implying. A soccer player doesnt become a better player than he could be, just because he has better shoes. The same with hotkeys, they DO NOT HAVE DIRECT IMPACT ON GAMEPLAY, they only make you play to the best of your ability, instead of being hold down by not being able. A map like Outsider considerably directly changes gameplay, 4ex makes PvZ much different, on the edge of being almost impossible, yet we dont have a problem with it, and when they kept coming with new maps every season during the prime of BW. "Yet Flash uses a ruler and many other progamers including him are very particular regarding their mouse/keyboard choices and position." You seem to think that statement contradicts what im trying to say with the Bisu example, but it only makes it stronger. Flash regulates the distance between the edge of the table and the mouse pad, etc. because he has the choice to do it, other people take their shoes off, or put their keyboard on their lap, some other are left handed. It just makes him more comfortable, but it doesnt make him better at the game. Im pretty sure (and everyone here) that Flash would still play great games in some "standard" set up, he just would be more annoyed/uncomfortable to play the game and wouldnt play at his 100%. These set up preferences doesnt making better than he is/could be. Again, hotkeys dont make you better at the game, period. You need to get out of that stubborn purist mindset. There are some things that can improve the game and make it more atractive for the comunity and newer players that have 0 impact in gameplay. One of them is hotkeys. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20753985754#1 thoughts? | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
We can set a game limit vs same players (2 or 3?) and a ladder restriction like they have on Fish (you need 72 hours and 30 wins in order to ladder). | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On April 14 2017 11:46 TT1 wrote: What's there to stop 2 players from Q'ing up at the same time (at say dead hours) in order to hit each other on the ladder? People can win trade like that too. We can set a game limit vs same players (2 or 3?) and a ladder restriction like they have on Fish (you need 72 hours and 30 wins in order to ladder). Oh even automatic matchmakers can be exploited, it's just much harder and requires a lot more preparation. Like you said, matching together at super off-peak hours and friending all the other similarly-skilled players to make sure you don't run into them. In Overwatch, there was a group of 6 pretty decent (but not super high-level) players in Brazil who would queue up at 3AM. There just weren't other same-skill 6-stacks online at that time, so often they would get matched against Gold/Platinum stacks and wreck them. Even though they only earned a tiny amount of rating, it was still enough for them to eventually climb into Grandmaster... +2 rating at a time. I'm on the fence about "unlocking" ranked play upon reaching a certain amount of games played or time invested. A lot of times that's a formality anyway and players just grind that out mindlessly, and it just becomes a source of frustration and annoyance when you just want to hop into some competitive games. It would definitely be more necessary for a manual ladder though. | ||
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