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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On March 21 2017 02:32 ICanFlyLow wrote: sc2's release was the saddest shit i've ever seen. Total regression in terms of both social and game features, have they learned? The guy who made Bnet 2.0's interface for SC2 was reassigned (or quit?) almost immediately and the guy spearheading RealID was fired almost immediately. They listen to the community. They learn. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Jealous
10277 Posts
On March 21 2017 04:55 ROOTFayth wrote: you are fuckin paranoid Jealous I'm being realistic. If you want me to list the ways that having a bigger resolution will affect gameplay, I will be more than happy to do so. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On March 21 2017 05:28 Jealous wrote: I'm being realistic. If you want me to list the ways that having a bigger resolution will affect gameplay, I will be more than happy to do so. Please do, I'm curious. All this talk about hitting P to build a probe being critical to the balance of brood war has me wondering what else is holding the game together. | ||
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GoShox
United States1843 Posts
On March 21 2017 05:35 InfCereal wrote: Please do, I'm curious. All this talk about hitting P to build a probe being critical to the balance of brood war has me wondering what else is holding the game together. I think the hotkey argument is ridiculous (customized hotkeys wouldn't suddenly make people pros lol) but I do think it's absolutely fair to be concerned about a resolution increase, in terms of being able to see more of the map at once. This would definitely make it much easier to set up flanks and, for example, it'd be a lot easier for Zerg to send a bunch more units into battle. I'm not sure I'd be a huge fan of it, if it were to happen. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On March 21 2017 05:42 GoShox wrote: I think the hotkey argument is ridiculous (customized hotkeys wouldn't suddenly make people pros lol) but I do think it's absolutely fair to be concerned about a resolution increase, in terms of being able to see more of the map at once. This would definitely make it much easier to set up flanks and, for example, it'd be a lot easier for Zerg to send a bunch more units into battle. I'm not sure I'd be a huge fan of it, if it were to happen. Are you kidding me!? If I actually was able to always hit O for siege mode on my siege tanks I'd be invincible. Terrans would win every game ever. | ||
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Jealous
10277 Posts
On March 21 2017 05:35 InfCereal wrote: Please do, I'm curious. All this talk about hitting P to build a probe being critical to the balance of brood war has me wondering what else is holding the game together. I brought up that point when I was demonstrating how the other person was being the problem that he was complaining about and does not reflect my beliefs, at least my fervent ones. I already said that it is more of an old man gripe. I do think it would help ease new players into the game and that although I don't think that versatile hotkeys should be disallowed, I won't be upset if they're not included. Back to the main point, here are some ways I see a bigger screen affecting game play: Macro P: Can see more gates per screen lock, making macro much easier, especially considering late-game vs. T where having two bases of gates is practically a requirement. T: Can see more barracks/factory per screen lock, making macro much easier in every match-up. Z: Doesn't help much at all - hence a benefit to T/P but not Z in the mid to late-game. Micro in engagements P: Easier to coordinate flanks/cast storm/stasis on a stationary Terran army. Terran benefit in this scenario by maybe having greater awareness of where to EMP/position vultures but I can't help but feel that this gives an advantage to the aggressor. Either way, this affects gameplay, which was my initial argument. T: I don't see any direct benefits besides those listed above; I find they are the ones disadvantaged in these scenarios. Z: Easier flanking on both T and P, a crucial element to mid and late game Z play. Harass This is the area that I think I'd most impacted by this change. All races: Any aerial harassment becomes more difficult to pull off because people have a greater vision/direct awareness (as opposed to indirect, such as minimap) of it coming, meaning quicker reactions and an increased facility of transporting workers between main and natural on most maps. This is a universal defenders advantage granted by resolution, which is contingent on... Positional balance The most popular maps in competitive BW are subject to have a greater positional imbalance because of the resolution and control console. I'd want to be on the bottom bases of FS rather than the top because the control console acts as a map limit on those bases. In other words, aerial harass can never come from below you, always from the side or above. Compare this to the top bases, where harass comes from the sides or bottom. Increased resolution exacerbates this issue because the top bases have an obligatory blindspot at one of the more frequent harass angles while the bottom bases have extended visibility on the directions of their most frequent incoming harass options. Regardless of whether you agree with me on the specifics of how these scenarios play out, the fact that there will be an impact on the game itself in my opinion is undeniable and therefore cannot be wistfully written off in a sentence by anyone who has any awareness of what this game and it's multitude of contributing factors entail. | ||
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lestye
United States4186 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 21 2017 06:02 Jealous wrote: I brought up that point when I was demonstrating how the other person was being the problem that he was complaining about and does not reflect my beliefs, at least my fervent ones. I already said that it is more of an old man gripe. I do think it would help ease new players into the game and that although I don't think that versatile hotkeys should be disallowed, I won't be upset if they're not included. Back to the main point, here are some ways I see a bigger screen affecting game play: Macro P: Can see more gates per screen lock, making macro much easier, especially considering late-game vs. T where having two bases of gates is practically a requirement. T: Can see more barracks/factory per screen lock, making macro much easier in every match-up. Z: Doesn't help much at all - hence a benefit to T/P but not Z in the mid to late-game. Micro in engagements P: Easier to coordinate flanks/cast storm/stasis on a stationary Terran army. Terran benefit in this scenario by maybe having greater awareness of where to EMP/position vultures but I can't help but feel that this gives an advantage to the aggressor. Either way, this affects gameplay, which was my initial argument. T: I don't see any direct benefits besides those listed above; I find they are the ones disadvantaged in these scenarios. Z: Easier flanking on both T and P, a crucial element to kid and late game Z play. Harass This is the area that I think I'd most impacted by this change. All races: Any aerial harassment becomes more difficult to pull off because people have a greater vision/direct awareness (as opposed to indirect, such as minimap) of it coming, meaning quicker reactions and an increased facility of transporting workers between main and natural on most maps. This is a universal defenders advantage granted by resolution, which is contingent on... Positional balance The most popular maps in competitive BW are subject to have a greater positional imbalance because of the resolution and control console. I'd want to be on the bottom bases of FS rather than the top because the control console acts as a map limit on those bases. In other words, aerial harass can never come from below you, always from the side or above. Compare this to the top bases, where harass comes from the sides or bottom. Increased resolution exacerbates this issue because the top bases have an obligatory blindspot at one of the more frequent harass angles while the bottom bases have extended visibility on the directions of their most frequent incoming harass options. Regardless of whether you agree with me on the specifics of how these scenarios play out, the fact that there will be an impact on the game itself in my opinion is undeniable and therefore cannot be wistfully written off in a sentence by anyone who has any awareness of what this game and it's multitude of contributing factors entail. OK but would not higher resolution that actually lets you see more make all units and buildings smaller than now? That would mean it would now take more skill to select and use different units, especially units like high templar that don't have smart casting like in sc2. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
I'll also add, that in his comparison of the change to macro, if anything, a bigger screen could be a disadvantage for zerg. When zergs macro at a location with several hatcheries, it is often done by double-clicking a larva to select 12 of them, and then hitting Z (or whatever). Changing the apparent size of those larva to the player makes this task easier to mess up, and therefore harder to execute. This isn't as much of a problem with T and P, as clicking the buildings would still be pretty much the same difficulty, even if they were somewhat smaller. But larva are much smaller, and need to be double-clicked for macro purposes. But again, the bigger point that is being discussed is "would it change anything?" The answer to which is clearly "yes." | ||
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Jealous
10277 Posts
On March 21 2017 06:16 -Archangel- wrote: OK but would not higher resolution that actually lets you see more make all units and buildings smaller than now? That would mean it would now take more skill to select and use different units, especially units like high templar that don't have smart casting like in sc2. Not for me because I use the wireframes at the bottom in the selection screen. What you said only supports my argument that this will change gameplay. It will be harder to select casters, easier to send and coordinate waves of raw flanking army. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On March 20 2017 12:58 Lorch wrote: Oh I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I just remember reading that Boxer thought that the reaver became dumb after a certain patch so I figured it was about the scarabs. IIRC, it really was about the scarab AI becoming worse after the 1.04 patch. That is what I remember too from some Boxer excerpts from his book, Crazy As Me. Ah, found it: Boxer: During the days when I was a Protoss user, my favorite unit was the reaver. It was an extremely slow unit, but no other unit could match its power. I enjoyed using guerilla strategies, placing reavers in the shuttle and destroying the opponent’s base. Because the reaver would be a high target by the opponent, I couldn’t look away for a moment. If I especially did not damage the opponent’s base sufficiently and lost both the reaver and the shuttle, the situation would reverse immediately, so I needed to pay attention carefully. The positioning of the reaver was also crucial, so it was important to understand the map and the location of the opponent’s base. For this reason, the reaver-shuttle strategy was one of the strategies that I used with great risk. There are many Protoss users today that still use this strategy, but it requires great amounts of practice and experience to handle the reaver exceptionally. I had proficient handling of the reaver at the time, and with it I enjoyed the heightened tension while using the swift mobility of the shuttle for guerrilla attacks. But the day came when I had to change my race. It was the day when the 1.04 patch was made. Starcraft is a game where patches are continuing to be made, to correct any bugs and balances among the three races. With the 1.04 patch, the reaver became unintelligent. At least this was what I thought in the past. There was still the overwhelming power of the reaver’s scarab that directed towards the opponent’s units, but the success percentage of the scarab fell dramatically. And because the reaver is such a slow unit, it is necessary to complement its weakness with the shuttle as its partner, and so an additional amount of resource is needed. It is also a unit that requires a lot of minerals and gas, so it is extremely valuable, enough that the success or failure of this strategy will decide the tempo of the first half of the game. If this reaver, that was placed in a certain position after great difficulty, failed to discharge the scarabs properly or if the scarab exploded in a random place, it was not easy to win. I was very disappointed, as I used the reaver strategy frequently. “This isn’t it. There’s nothing I can do with Protoss.” And so, for the first time I set my eyes on other races. http://web.archive.org/web/20110725084707/http://boxerbiography.blogspot.com/2006/12/57-choosing-terran.html | ||
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Jealous
10277 Posts
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TT1
Canada10014 Posts
On March 21 2017 05:47 SchAmToo wrote: Are you kidding me!? If I actually was able to always hit O for siege mode on my siege tanks I'd be invincible. Terrans would win every game ever. Yea i think terran would benefit from having a bit more vision the most, especially in tvp. Being able to siege tanks even .5 secs faster is a pretty big deal. | ||
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castleeMg
Canada785 Posts
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On March 20 2017 23:33 [[Starlight]] wrote: We should know by the special event, i.e. March 25. Playing wait-and-see for 5 days doesn't require any real investment of trust, just the tiniest bit of patience. I can do that  | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On March 21 2017 07:46 castleeMg wrote: i hope this doesnt come off as me being a "bw elitist" but im going to chime in on all the people talking about improving the AI and nerfing/buffing of different units in the game. in my opinion if you are complaining about these things you are not a true fan of brood war, you are the type of person who will buy the HD remake for your week or 2 of fun then never play it again because you weren't winning or you didn't like it. please do not be a voice for broodwar if you are not a true fan of broodwar I don't think it's elitism. I think it's appreciation of what the game is versus what it isn't. Broodwar gets respect from a lot of people because it's hard, unchanged, and yet ever-changing. None of this "true fan" or whatever, people can be fans of whatever they want, but if they want to play Broodwar for the competitiveness of Broodwar, they should understand the people who have been playing it for a long time (myself not included) have a pretty good idea of what will make and break a remake. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3690 Posts
@Resolution: If they merely increase everything alongside the resolution you could get the same field of view in a far higher 4:3 resolution. The only real issue is changing it to widescreen. But seeing a bit more on the left and right hand side would not be as huge as some of you outline it to be. It really depends on how they do it. It could be as bad as the widescreen hack that exists now (www.wsgf.org) or they could keep everything the same size and do a minor increase to the field of view. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On March 21 2017 07:11 Jealous wrote: The balance change prior to that but irrelevant to Boxer (apparently) was indeed the zero cool down scarab shot, though. Just pointing out that both are things that happened to nerf reaver. Both balance changes did indeed happen, but as you can see directly from Boxer's own comments, it was the scarab AI change(s) that caused him to stop playing as Protoss. 1.04 was an interesting patch... it could be argued that the game that emerged from it wasn't really the same one at all anymore. Lots of big changes. And a number of ppl on the Blizzard forums at the time wailed that they'd "NEVER play Starcraft AGAIN!!!!", but in fact, they did. Or others took their place, since the game's popularity only seemed to go up. The BW expansion, released at the same time, certainly sold incredibly well. | ||
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