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This is NOT a BW vs SC2 topic thread. Be cautious of what you post. Starting Page 26, warnings/bans will be handed out if this note is ignored. |
On August 10 2016 02:37 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +But what does blizzard want to achieve with bw hd? Get the bw audience to buy a new version or also appeal to other gamers. Maybe I'm on a different page than everyone else, but isn't the whole point of HD Remasters to pander to nostalgia and older audiences? I imagine if they wanted to appeal to new gamers, they'd make a new game, instead of taking an old game and changing it so that it just looks like an old game.
Pretty much this. The target of the remake is mainly Korea and old fans. Not to attract new players. SC2 is made to attract new players. That is why they have WCS system for SC2 and not for BW. It is great to have more players for BW but then again it is not the end of the world if the player base won't increase with the HD remaster. It is not the goal to begin with anyway.
Some people here need to understand why the BW fans sound like fanatic asshole cult. They lived for over 5 years (some for over a decade) with a game that was not patched or changed at all. They treat it like a real sport with certain rules. Those rules do not change because some people keep QQing about certain stuff. They cannot tolerate that someone coming with no background about this "sport" suggesting changes that in the BW fans point of view based on their experience will make it shit.
Anyway. Is it time yet for the BW vs SC2 mega thread please?
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On August 10 2016 03:33 digmouse wrote:
Basically Blizzard can't win with either approach.
Oh I think they can win, they just need to, uh basically not listen alot to most people on TL (myself excluded obviously). I was late to the BW scene (TA player back in the day) but loved it, I've also loved SC2 all the way through but can't really be arsed to play it much these days. One of the reasons I don't play alot of SC2 anymore is that while I consider the game to be decently balanced, I don't really like the way it is balanced. BW battles last longer, look cooler, feel more strategic (slower more positional) and the BW units are more interesting. Still, I don't play BW at all since I'm not interested in UMS and not hardcore enough (too little time) for the iccup ladder and such. Also no MBS and 12 unit max selection annoys me greatly (why wont anyone ever argue for the awesome superiority of wc1, where max unit selection is 4? Or dune 2?).
I would LOVE brood war HD with MBS, unlimited unit selection, tasty 2d graphics with higher resolutions and modern ladder systems/matchmaking. If it was decently priced and blizzard would have the balls to let it succeed SC2 as their rts-esport of choice I think it could be hugely succesful. I agree that balance would be changed by these updates, even if no stats are altered, but that doesn't automatically mean balance would be broken. I think some bw veterans might be forgetting that bw has been balanced not only by blizzard, but also by the players and mapmakers.
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On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:
And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? There we would have to conclude we have a conceptual disagreement, because I don't really like this kind of thinking - I don't really know how to correctly generalize it, but it's along the lines "X is good for you, because it teaches ..." - I hate that everywhere in life, so I surely won't like it in a game I play for fun ....
No, it doesn't teach as much, as it makes it easier to implement wrong actions. The logic behind it is similar to what I wrote about the MBS: Sure you can train units during a fight, but you still need to be very aware of what you are training, I could list tons of examples, just take one: For instance you fight Zerg as Protoss and order massive amounts of Zealots, 'cause the letter is branded onto your mind - meanwhile you exchange your mix against Ling/Lurk contains. Well...
Same goes for workers. It's really easy to order three rounds of workers in three bases, when you really wanted to stop producing them in the first place, as you theoretically are having a perfect balance already. It really is not a huge problem for lower ranked non-Zerg, but at some point in your career you want to get rid of that.
Mind you, we're already talking about things you have to improve later rather than sooner, the pay-off for somewhat experienced players gets down the gutters, the benefit for the lower ranked players / beginners in comparison is nearly not there.
Therefore: I don't mind any of the mechanics, they're not doing much down the line. If you're good enough, you roflstomp MBS-Users anyway, at least that was the case for ordinary casuals for me in SCII, and I really wasn't any good in that game. If I lost, I lost due to other factors, such as not knowing units or strategies, with my mechanics giving me still a huge lead up to the diamond or whattheface thing was.
Also, don't get me wrong, I never suggested you advocate smart cast or the unit selection.
About the bugs: These are horrible if fixed for competitive play for the most. It really comes down to the bugs. Units like reavers would be really, really ghastly do deal with for instance, while bugging out goons wouldn't be such a large problem. Then again, maps like Blue Storm would lose a lot of attraction, because their design toys with the bugs a ton.
All in all, the guy with the real long post about different game modes is spot on. The HD remake stands and falls with the active player base and new blood. All the interface option do not matter too much for a revitalisation. However, I'm very pessimistic about Blizzard and the way they organise and present this new esports thing. The original B.net 2.0 stuck with me and was the driving factor to not feel anything for the new competitive scene at all. You could ignore that SCII was not a BW, but it offered literally nothing besides the boring ladder experience. Not to mention that outstanding projects like Sandlot are for sure a thing of the past or the feeling I still have thinking about a postponed SSL, the proleague switch and whatnot. It's not that I don't look forward to it, it's more like a long six years of unbroken disappointment in a company I was a fan of.
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On August 10 2016 04:00 Wettis wrote:
Also no MBS and 12 unit max selection annoys me greatly (why wont anyone ever argue for the awesome superiority of wc1, where max unit selection is 4? Or dune 2?).
Becouse it had no PL, no progamers and nobody cares. It alone makes this question void. Limited selection is what many of us like becouse with a bad pathfinding it worked in reducing massive blobs of some units (of mutalisk f.e. - it was an art to use more than 1 stack simultanuosly).
On August 10 2016 04:00 Wettis wrote:
I agree that balance would be changed by these updates, even if no stats are altered, but that doesn't automatically mean balance would be broken. I think some bw veterans might be forgetting that bw has been balanced not only by blizzard, but also by the players and mapmakers.
From the spectator point of view current system works for me and I am against radical changes in balance. Unlimited selection may alter it more than many would expect.
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On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote:On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing?  But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit.
Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly.
But don't think about it as a speed challenge.
Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face.
But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time.
You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision.
Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro.
Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome.
With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW.
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On August 10 2016 04:15 hitthat wrote:
From the spectator point of view current system works for me and I am against radical changes in balance. Unlimited selection may alter it more than many would expect.
That is reasonable and not impossible, for me though it's clearly worth the risk. I love the esports scene and remember fondly dreamhacks, IEMs and MLGs where SC2 was a huge draw, I've also watched those old and amazing bw proleague finals with tons of spectators. I see bwHD as our best hope to get there again.
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On August 10 2016 04:16 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote:On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit. Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW.
I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me.
Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can.
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I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me.
Personally when I played BW at D+/C- level on iCCup I had around 75-85 apm as Zerg, and believe it or not, I was more of an tactician then economist. Most of my wins came from good Lurker positioning and flanks or better decision on where to strike next.
Even for D+ standard (which is low and someone will call out on in) my macro was bad becasuse of my speed. But I never blamed the UI for my shortcomings, instead I tried to improve on what I was good at (and had loads of fun as well).
That isn't to say I couldn't play macro game and cheesed, I don't find it fun.
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Where did this idea come from that you have to have skills like Jaedong just to play the game and have fun?
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On August 10 2016 04:34 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 04:16 Nazara wrote:On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote:On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit. Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW. I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can.
Something to consider is that games exist for people with your preferences. SC2 has both features. Hell, you can even play BW against people who have similar inclinations regarding macro mechanics, and it should be a match that fits the way you want to play the game. But for the people who want a mechanically challenging and rewarding game, the options are scant. I think it's reasonable to leave them what they love. Don't you?
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On August 10 2016 04:48 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 04:34 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 04:16 Nazara wrote:On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote:On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit. Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW. I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can. Something to consider is that games exist for people with your preferences. SC2 has both features. Hell, you can even play BW against people who have similar inclinations regarding macro mechanics, and it should be a match that fits the way you want to play the game. But for the people who want a mechanically challenging and rewarding game, the options are scant. I think it's reasonable to leave them what they love. Don't you?
And as I have asked many times: who is to take this away from them? Nobody is "ending BW", because that's technically impossible. So what is the problem?
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On August 10 2016 04:34 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 04:16 Nazara wrote:On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote:On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit. Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW. I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can.
I don't know how you approached the game, or what the circumstances were. Chances are not in the best manner, as you stranded here among a very special type of users, TL.net's mantra was always focussing on Korean standard play. The later you found this page, the more fanatic it was and the more it leaned towards macro oriented long-game play. BW offers more, not saying TL.net's approach was anything but very sound for highly competitive players and did feature an elite class of players giving great tipps.
However, TL.net's darker side also postulate the everlasting stereotype you'd lose and lose before winning, that it takes ages "to master the game", a mystification that's hardly found elsewhere to this extent. This really annoyed me quite a bit, especially when it was repeated by casuals, who never really explored the servers, not that I can blame them after being overwhelmed by this sheer negativity. In this cases the mindset was the biggest impact on losing streaks. If you go into games with this set-in-stone belief, you're bound to lose over and over again.
I witnessed a ton of newbs who became decent very fast without sacrificing their entire real life for the game - and I'm not talking about the known names like ghosta, mardow or kolll. To just be able to do enough to have fun while getting the feeling to have some form of control doesn't take more than maybe a hundred games if trained with a minor bit of reflection on the way, regardless of your style; really that's enough to have fun in the D-ranked area.
I don't think you're getting a grasp over the game with 'just' MBS and auto-mine faster than in comparison to now, keeping in mind everyone else has the same tools at hand. You'll be under the impression you might be better off, but if you have someone with knowledge analyse your game, he'd find nearly the same flaws. To a higher ranked player your mistakes would look like the ones of a low tier player just a few years ago. Reasons being that you weren't spending your actions on the right locations more often than you failed to "speed up".
The hardest downer in BW is the way the game punishes the slightest of mistakes. You might just slip up in one fight and the entire game looks as if you were the slow idiot, who didn't train enough, when in truth there's not much in between you and your opponent - mistakes pile up and get exponentially worse within a five minute frame. This effect is increased if you really do opt for macro games.
Sometimes I wonder if it isn't the general internet usage that stops even casuals from reflecting. "Back when bla bla" you only had five hours a week on sunday to play online, you'd analyse your games over the week, or spend some minutes trying to figure out what to do online, before you even touch the game. It really feels as if this isolation helped me to increase a ton faster than the newer generation, who could just mass 15 games a row whenever they felt like it.
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On August 10 2016 04:55 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 04:48 Acritter wrote:On August 10 2016 04:34 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 04:16 Nazara wrote:On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote:On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote:On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit. Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW. I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can. Something to consider is that games exist for people with your preferences. SC2 has both features. Hell, you can even play BW against people who have similar inclinations regarding macro mechanics, and it should be a match that fits the way you want to play the game. But for the people who want a mechanically challenging and rewarding game, the options are scant. I think it's reasonable to leave them what they love. Don't you? And as I have asked many times: who is to take this away from them? Nobody is "ending BW", because that's technically impossible. So what is the problem?
Its becoming increasingly more and more difficult to play old games on new systems. Playing BW on modern Operating Systems come with a range of problems from "it doesn't work", to "colors randomly go crazy and invert for no reason", to stretching a 4:3 aspect ratio screen across a wide screen monitor. Some peope are even only able to play the game in Windowed mode. Others can get it fullscreen, but it will screw with their desktop resolution if they do. And then there are countless problems with how Battle.net is, and how in order to actually play games against other people, you have to wage war against your own router with port forwarding and the like. ShieldBattery has taken great steps to fixing some of these issues, but an HD Remaster would be an official release that should take an old game, and let you play it on new systems. If you take an old game, make it playable on new systems, and then start changing the fundamental mechanics of the game while they are at it, its no longer the old game on new systems, and so people are still screwed.
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Sentenal: yeah, this is a fair point. I haven't really run BW for so long that I didin't consider this difficulties. Still, the "two verisons paradigm" solves this neatly ...
Gecko: I find it interesting to read your posts, because you have interesting insights, but I fear you are simply not casual enough to understand
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On August 10 2016 05:30 opisska wrote:Sentenal: yeah, this is a fair point. I haven't really run BW for so long that I didin't consider this difficulties. Still, the "two verisons paradigm" solves this neatly ... Gecko: I find it interesting to read your posts, because you have interesting insights, but I fear you are simply not casual enough to understand
What part of "Not for casual" you do not get? The target again is Korea and old folks. The target is never to get new people on BW. It is Blizzard way to redeem their doing back in 2012. Afreeca TV already said that Blizzard is moving to support both BW and SC2 a long side as the transition in Korea was horrible. Once again the remake is not for casuals. It is just an improved version with improved graphics for Korea and old folks.
The goal is not to make profit. That is why the rumors say it will be F2P. That is why they run WCS world wide for SC2 and not for BW. Each will have its own audience. Also, why the heck would Blizzard want casuals to play BW competitively when there is SC2 with WCS for that specific goal?
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Another way for Blizzard to make an easy buck. God I've lost faith in them... Why can't they at least leave the one thing they did well alone?
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For me, broodwar is a religion ^^ .. my friends are constantly making fun of me, but i can't help myself. I'm playing this game since 2002, so broodwar was with me while ive grown up. Its more than a game to me, its nostalgia, childhood and hardcore. I was a talented football player (soccer), but i wrecked my knees, I was depressive, but I've found broodwar.. a new sport, a new challenge.. if you will. It helped me alot.
I was so hyped when SC2 came out.. i remember smiling at the shopclerk like a maniac when i picked it up. It took like 2k games to realize its not the same. I really wanted to like it, but it just didn't work. Crushing a maxed marine/medic composition with some banelings doesn't fell like wrecking a handfull tanks with mutas. Ive bought the expansion tho.. because it's starcraft and i needed to like it ^^ It's just not the same.
Anyone who suggests changes in gameplay never truly played broodwar. Ye, I'm one of the "elitists" but im not rubbing it in your face. I'm just bitter about the situation. They have killed broodwar for no reason. We have a right to be bitter about it.
I hope for compatility fixes and maybe a ladder system.. nothing more.
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Bisutopia19368 Posts
We all know we will stick to whatever version Bisu is playing. Shed all your worriers and let him decide for us all.
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On August 10 2016 07:13 BisuDagger wrote:
We all know we will stick to whatever version Bisu is playing. Shed all your worriers and let him decide for us all.
What? Bisu who? Thats the guy who dodged the last ASL?
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I don't even know if I want to watch me suck at BW... in HD...
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EPT
