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If racepicking is allowed it won't be any diffrent than Iccup / Fish. In this case i will stay iccup.
I want a ladder which means something, i dont want to meet guys which are ex. A in TvP and C in other matchups. If you can't handle one specific matchup or dislike it just play Melee or iccup. I dont get what's the point of this service if the matchmaking will be basicaly iccup lel
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Because most people can't host games on ICCUP? It makes it a hell of a lot easier for a lot of people to play. I don't understand how forcing your way of playing on others is the right way. It will most likely drive more away from BW than it will bring.
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Well as far as i know that besides Matchmaking it does have option to host UMS so whats the deal? Right now you are forcing peoples to play rigged ladder which is far from acurate.
Ladder shoult not have any form of race picking if its meant for bigger community. Enough said
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On May 24 2016 02:04 Mojzii1 wrote:
What a nonsense really, if you dont mind getting good just leave the matchups you dont like and queue for another. Simple as that. In matchmaking you should not be allowed to racepick, you should pre-select race and once opponent is found play it or leave it...
EDIT: Or stay iccup/fish
How can you say it is good that people just leave games right after start? That would be incredibly annoying. Just imagine how you would feel after playing 5 games and every time your opponent just leaves right away. Is this really fun to you?
On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc.
That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys.
On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable.
You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind.
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On May 24 2016 02:44 Mojzii1 wrote:
Well as far as i know that besides Matchmaking it does have option to host UMS so whats the deal? Right now you are forcing peoples to play rigged ladder which is far from acurate.
Ladder shoult not have any form of race picking if its meant for bigger community. Enough said
Obviously you haven't tried to play ICCUP or Fish or you are a Protoss because I guarantee you if you host D-C right now 80% of your games will be Toss its not fun when you are limited in the number of games you can play. You aren't even trying to understand the other side you are dismissing it all because you believe you are right.
As long as I get an even number of Terran/Toss/Zerg I don't care about auto matchmaking but if Starbow and ICCUP has taught me anything I'm going to spend hours playing TvP and get bored. Sure some may like the TvP match-up enough it doesn't matter but what if you get 6 ZvZ's in a row its going to be frustrating as hell for those of us that don't want to be the best but want to ladder for fun.
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Norway28714 Posts
On May 24 2016 02:26 Mojzii1 wrote:
If racepicking is allowed it won't be any diffrent than Iccup / Fish. In this case i will stay iccup.
I want a ladder which means something, i dont want to meet guys which are ex. A in TvP and C in other matchups. If you can't handle one specific matchup or dislike it just play Melee or iccup. I dont get what's the point of this service if the matchmaking will be basicaly iccup lel
how do you even notice that players are racepicking? Like, say, you are a terran player. How are you bothered by another terran player choosing zerg against you rather than playing tvt? How is that any different from just running into a zerg player?
People who racepick are overwhelmingly better at their chosen matchups than they would be at the mirror matchup - allowing race picking means people's skill is going to be more uniform, not less.
I genuinely do not understand any of the arguments presented so far against race picking. Programming issues I would get, but this is just nonsense.
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Please give me a betakey T_T
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On May 24 2016 02:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I genuinely do not understand any of the arguments presented so far against race picking. Programming issues I would get, but this is just nonsense.
That's my sole opinion about it: matchmaking should probably be implemented with just one race first, with race picking included in a later update. No reason for it except that I'd like to see matchmaking get off the ground ASAP.
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On May 24 2016 03:30 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 02:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I genuinely do not understand any of the arguments presented so far against race picking. Programming issues I would get, but this is just nonsense. That's my sole opinion about it: matchmaking should probably be implemented with just one race first, with race picking included in a later update. No reason for it except that I'd like to see matchmaking get off the ground ASAP.
I agree with Drone but I agree more with Acritter. Let's get the horse in front of the cart here....
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On May 24 2016 02:52 -Dustin- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 02:44 Mojzii1 wrote:
Well as far as i know that besides Matchmaking it does have option to host UMS so whats the deal? Right now you are forcing peoples to play rigged ladder which is far from acurate.
Ladder shoult not have any form of race picking if its meant for bigger community. Enough said Obviously you haven't tried to play ICCUP or Fish or you are a Protoss because I guarantee you if you host D-C right now 80% of your games will be Toss its not fun when you are limited in the number of games you can play. You aren't even trying to understand the other side you are dismissing it all because you believe you are right. As long as I get an even number of Terran/Toss/Zerg I don't care about auto matchmaking but if Starbow and ICCUP has taught me anything I'm going to spend hours playing TvP and get bored. Sure some may like the TvP match-up enough it doesn't matter but what if you get 6 ZvZ's in a row its going to be frustrating as hell for those of us that don't want to be the best but want to ladder for fun.
C+ Iccup Terran. But you dont understand. If you want to play other races go UNRANKED, if you want to compete Ladder IT SHOULD BE FAIR AND ORGANISED. You know you can host UMS to play what you want but your argument is you dont like PvP. So you basically want rigged matchmaking and you can't handle Mirror matchup. So pvp will be 80% of the time. Okay i get it. Switch race?
Just give me one good reason why ranked play should be so unfair to others. I can bet that half of the ppls here are actually interested in 2016 matchmaking, if they really need to race pick that badly i done see reason for you to be on ladder. go unranked for fun and practice and let laadder be real ladder maybe?
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On May 24 2016 02:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 02:26 Mojzii1 wrote:
If racepicking is allowed it won't be any diffrent than Iccup / Fish. In this case i will stay iccup.
I want a ladder which means something, i dont want to meet guys which are ex. A in TvP and C in other matchups. If you can't handle one specific matchup or dislike it just play Melee or iccup. I dont get what's the point of this service if the matchmaking will be basicaly iccup lel how do you even notice that players are racepicking? Like, say, you are a terran player. How are you bothered by another terran player choosing zerg against you rather than playing tvt? How is that any different from just running into a zerg player? People who racepick are overwhelmingly better at their chosen matchups than they would be at the mirror matchup - allowing race picking means people's skill is going to be more uniform, not less. I genuinely do not understand any of the arguments presented so far against race picking. Programming issues I would get, but this is just nonsense.
The reason is that Prodactors (the alien race with the long heads) can move their workers while beaming in their buildings. That's a major bonus if you pick them over humans and therefore only true players play human vs human.
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RoomOfMush Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind.
This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros.
When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years.
@Mojzil Your arguments have no substance and were rekt by 1 sentence from Drone so I don't have much more to say on this matter besides the fact that you already play race pickers on ICCup and Fish.
EDIT: OK since you asked for one reason I will give you multiple:
1. As Drone said you would have no idea that you are playing a person who racepicks.
2. The person who match picks has NO advantage over a person plays that match up normally. In fact it may be more of a hurdle for them to be switching race.
3. Similarly, that person has NO advantage over another person who doesn't racepick. Tell me, what is the advantage of them playing TvZ/TvP/PvT vs a player who plays TvZ/TvP/TvT???
4. KESPA DID allow racepicking, a point I made previously with examples which you conveniently ignored.
5. Race-picking has always been allowed on all servers and in most tournaments so you are effectively complaining about the way the game has been played for 18 years.
.: Your argument has 0 substance.
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On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years. @ Mojzil Your arguments have no substance and were rekt by 1 sentence from Drone so I don't have much more to say on this matter besides the fact that you already play race pickers on ICCup and Fish. EDIT: OK since you asked for one reason I will give you multiple: 1. As Drone said you would have no idea that you are playing a person who racepicks. 2. The person who match picks has NO advantage over a person plays that match up normally. In fact it may be more of a hurdle for them to be switching race. 3. Similarly, that person has NO advantage over another person who doesn't racepick. Tell me, what is the advantage of them playing TvZ/TvP/PvT vs a player who plays TvZ/TvP/TvT??? 4. KESPA DID allow racepicking, a point I made previously with examples which you conveniently ignored. 5. Race-picking has always been allowed on all servers and in most tournaments so you are effectively complaining about the way the game has been played for 18 years. .: Your argument has 0 substance.
So lets make petition to implement this in moder games please ! For example in sc2. I would be like top 100 gm instead of top masters because instead of TvT i could play PvT as protoss. and instead of TvP i could play ZvP as zerg. You get the point? Skill ranking won't be accurate, and what's the point of ladder which is inacurate. well let's see how it goes but it don't think it's good thing. Let's wait and see
EDIT: whether race picking will be a thing or not, shieldbattery is a step-forward if it get big enough community. But i just think that for Competetive ladder race picking will not be a good thing in my opinion.
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On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years.
You can not say something is "a step backwards" or "a step forwards" without defining what forward and backward is. So what is forward to you? What is a limit and what is a feature? What is a feature and what is a challenge?
Do you pick them at random? Do you pick them at your own pleasure and force them upon people?
You have to pick a basic principle to argue your point. A central idea. Otherwise what you say is just arbitrary words and your opinion is as valid (and just as unimportant) as what a random number generator would spew out.
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On May 24 2016 04:52 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years. You can not say something is "a step backwards" or "a step forwards" without defining what forward and backward is. So what is forward to you? What is a limit and what is a feature? What is a feature and what is a challenge? Do you pick them at random? Do you pick them at your own pleasure and force them upon people? You have to pick a basic principle to argue your point. A central idea. Otherwise what you say is just arbitrary words and your opinion is as valid (and just as unimportant) as what a random number generator would spew out.
My opinion from the begining was that race-picking is bad for competition. I fell sorry for you to be that dumb and unable to perceive content of my sentence. Well whatever..
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 24 2016 05:03 Mojzii1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:52 RoomOfMush wrote:On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years. You can not say something is "a step backwards" or "a step forwards" without defining what forward and backward is. So what is forward to you? What is a limit and what is a feature? What is a feature and what is a challenge? Do you pick them at random? Do you pick them at your own pleasure and force them upon people? You have to pick a basic principle to argue your point. A central idea. Otherwise what you say is just arbitrary words and your opinion is as valid (and just as unimportant) as what a random number generator would spew out. My opinion from the begining was that race-picking is bad for competition. I fell sorry for you to be that dumb and unable to perceive content of my sentence. Well whatever..
I did not respond at all to what you wrote. To be more precise, I didnt even read what you wrote; I was responding to Jealous.
But even if we assume that I responded to anything you said, why do you assume I disagree with you? I said arguments only make sense if you have a basic premise to argue about. If your basic premise is "we need to focus on being competitive" then what I say is: "Your opinion is valid and important".
How is that a reason to attack me on a personal level?
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On May 24 2016 05:13 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:03 Mojzii1 wrote:On May 24 2016 04:52 RoomOfMush wrote:On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years. You can not say something is "a step backwards" or "a step forwards" without defining what forward and backward is. So what is forward to you? What is a limit and what is a feature? What is a feature and what is a challenge? Do you pick them at random? Do you pick them at your own pleasure and force them upon people? You have to pick a basic principle to argue your point. A central idea. Otherwise what you say is just arbitrary words and your opinion is as valid (and just as unimportant) as what a random number generator would spew out. My opinion from the begining was that race-picking is bad for competition. I fell sorry for you to be that dumb and unable to perceive content of my sentence. Well whatever.. I did not respond at all to what you wrote. To be more precise, I didnt even read what you wrote; I was responding to Jealous. But even if we assume that I responded to anything you said, why do you assume I disagree with you? I said arguments only make sense if you have a basic premise to argue about. If your basic premise is "we need to focus on being competitive" then what I say is: "Your opinion is valid and important". How is that a reason to attack me on a personal level?
My bad :D ! sorry haha
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On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc.
Yes, that's why I said it depends on how you look at it.
Anyway, the final thing I would like to say on this matter is that there's plenty of people that do want to get good (such as me) and having every Zerg skip ZvZ is preventing me from learning all 3 match ups. I admit that I don't want to play ZvZ 33% of the time, but that wouldn't be the case anyway as protoss and terran are much more popular in my experience.
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On May 24 2016 04:49 Mojzii1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years. @ Mojzil Your arguments have no substance and were rekt by 1 sentence from Drone so I don't have much more to say on this matter besides the fact that you already play race pickers on ICCup and Fish. EDIT: OK since you asked for one reason I will give you multiple: 1. As Drone said you would have no idea that you are playing a person who racepicks. 2. The person who match picks has NO advantage over a person plays that match up normally. In fact it may be more of a hurdle for them to be switching race. 3. Similarly, that person has NO advantage over another person who doesn't racepick. Tell me, what is the advantage of them playing TvZ/TvP/PvT vs a player who plays TvZ/TvP/TvT??? 4. KESPA DID allow racepicking, a point I made previously with examples which you conveniently ignored. 5. Race-picking has always been allowed on all servers and in most tournaments so you are effectively complaining about the way the game has been played for 18 years. .: Your argument has 0 substance. So lets make petition to implement this in moder games please ! For example in sc2. I would be like top 100 gm instead of top masters because instead of TvT i could play PvT as protoss. and instead of TvP i could play ZvP as zerg. You get the point? Skill ranking won't be accurate, and what's the point of ladder which is inacurate. well let's see how it goes but it don't think it's good thing. Let's wait and see EDIT: whether race picking will be a thing or not, shieldbattery is a step-forward if it get big enough community. But i just think that for Competetive ladder race picking will not be a good thing in my opinion.
I can't reliably talk about SC2 or how well you'd do if you could play PvT instead of TvT but what I can speak confidently about is the fact that this has been an option in Brood War since the first competitive ladders/tournaments. Comparing it to SC2 is not really applicable because it's like comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps you could petition to have this feature added in other games ^^
I still don't see how you can argue that the ranking would be inaccurate. Firstly, all races are balanced enough overall (according to pro and ICCup statistics) that picking Protoss vs. Terran doesn't automatically hand you a W. You still have to be more proficient with PvT than your opponent is with TvP in order to win. Secondly, the skill ranking will be based on their ability in TvZ/TvP/PvT, whereas yours is based on TvZ/TvP/TvT. There is no numerical difference to make it inaccurate.
I definitely agree that ShieldBattery is a step forward overall. I guess we can agree to disagree, but I think I still don't understand the facts behind your argument.
On May 24 2016 04:52 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:12 Jealous wrote:RoomOfMush On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. That is so much hypocrisy coming from a guy who also doesnt want custom hotkeys. On one topic you talk about principles when arguing your point and then on another topic you suddenly look at what is practical / comfortable. You can either be the hard core guy who says everybody should suffer the same awful BW and stop pussying around because of hotkeys but then you suddenly become the "lets just have fun guys" guy and want people to enjoy themselfs. Make up your mind. This is not hypocrotical because they are completely unrelated issues on both of which I essentially have the same stance: maintaining status quo. Race-picking has always been a part of Brood War, even in KeSPA unlike what this nonsensical Mojzil claims, as have the limitations on what is acceptable for keyboard inputs and macros. When I said "wouldn't be fun" it was an understatement that is still true. The fact of the matter is that for a new server to come out that is more limited in key areas than previous servers that it aims to improve on doesn't make sense. Not allowing keyboard input modifications would be maintaining status quo and eliminate any potential inequities caused by dishonest users as well as the slew of issues that permission would create, which as you mentioned I've already expounded on. Inversely, disallowing race-picking would be a step backwards from ICCup and Fish and would alienate many users who have been playing Brood War with status quo standards for years. You can not say something is "a step backwards" or "a step forwards" without defining what forward and backward is. So what is forward to you? What is a limit and what is a feature? What is a feature and what is a challenge? Do you pick them at random? Do you pick them at your own pleasure and force them upon people? You have to pick a basic principle to argue your point. A central idea. Otherwise what you say is just arbitrary words and your opinion is as valid (and just as unimportant) as what a random number generator would spew out.
If you're going to be pedantic about it, I will clarify that I (in my opinion somewhat obviously) meant that "going backwards" would be removing existing options. Removing a player's ability to pick the match-ups he wants would be "going backwards." In fact it would be effectively removing something that has been a part of the game since Day 1, as I mentioned above @Mojzil. It would be removing something that has been allowed by the strictest and most professional organization Brood War has ever known (KeSPA) as well as the vast majority of large tournaments in the foreign scene. It simply doesn't make sense to "move backwards" in this sense.
"Moving forward" in this case would be creating new options, which should be reviewed critically. Technically, allowing keyboard macros and etc. would be "moving forward" as it is an addition to the existing gaming experience, but it would also cause many direct and tangential issues and therefore I don't think it would be a positive addition, but a negative one.
I pick these based on the established status quo, plain and simple. The Brood War we have now and the competitive standards we have cultivated and grown to accept over the past 18 years should not be violated, in my opinion. That is the basic principle, the central idea.
It is only your basic principle and and central idea that I cannot distinguish. In this present conversation so far, it seems to be "post with the aims of debasing Jealous's stance by attacking semantics and making generalized parallels to a discussion from days ago without a stance of my own."
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On May 24 2016 05:32 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 01:53 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 21:57 B-royal wrote:On May 23 2016 05:58 Jealous wrote:On May 23 2016 04:42 B-royal wrote:
I don't think any type of implementation of race picking or arranged matches should be a high priority goal.
Since if your goal is to practice one match-up, I believe you should just play custom games.
I do agree however that when it comes to a game like brood war, allowing people to make detailed choices relating to somewhat trivial preferences such as the types of match-ups they want to play, is the way to go.
It should however be prespecified which match-ups you would like to play, no switching upon seeing someone's race to avoid situations where both players want to switch and can't reach a compromise.
If you want to ladder, you have to abide by its rules. I would hardly say that the types of match-ups you play are "trivial," as they are a core aspect of what this game is lol Depends on how you look at it. Since most people don't care about getting good, there's no real reason for them to let the difficulty of a match-up hinder their ability to get enjoyment from it. This is why I said it would be a trivial choice for them, they switch races as they switch their clothes every other day. Someone who tries to become the best player he can be, doesn't have this option since the absolute elite don't respect race picking as it wasn't allowed by KeSpa. That's actually the opposite of how I see it. Because no one is trying to become pro, why play match-ups you detest? It simply doesn't make sense to do something you don't like. And I would say that "most" people, or at least from the profiles I've seen on ICCup/Fish, have definite race/MU selections with only a few games played with other races on a whim I'm guessing. Almost no one switches races every day, and the people that do are often Random players. Either way, this does not make an argument that picking MU is trivial. By the way, KeSPA definitely did allow race-picking. See: July vs. Chojja, Savior vs. I forget who, etc. Yes, that's why I said it depends on how you look at it. Anyway, the final thing I would like to say on this matter is that there's plenty of people that do want to get good (such as me) and having every Zerg skip ZvZ is preventing me from learning all 3 match ups. I admit that I don't want to play ZvZ 33% of the time, but that wouldn't be the case anyway as protoss and terran are much more popular in my experience.
That is a valid point. I actually didn't think about that angle of it. I guess it comes down to this: is it fair to force racepickers to play the match-ups they don't like, or does it impede the playing experience of more people more greatly. Personally, I'd side with the status quo on this, but I am a Protoss and not many people dodge PvP so I might not have the fullest empathy with your situation.
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EPT
