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On April 08 2016 20:50 StylishVODs wrote:
I'm supporting this! <3
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule.
probably because they can get more money through individual streaming
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On April 09 2016 10:16 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 20:50 StylishVODs wrote:
I'm supporting this! <3
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule. probably because they can get more money through individual streaming
players are allowed to stream while playing in the showmatch so its not like they're losing anything.
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On April 09 2016 11:07 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 10:16 Shinokuki wrote:On April 08 2016 20:50 StylishVODs wrote:
I'm supporting this! <3
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule. probably because they can get more money through individual streaming players are allowed to stream while playing in the showmatch so its not like they're losing anything.
It's not really clear. Most of leagues these days have no prizes for 4th place or below.
 EffOrt did not show up for some his quarter-final matches in the 41 Ranking Tournament. Assuming that he has a 50/50 chance in every match up, you might say that his expected winnings are estimated as follows.
(360x0.5x0.5x0.5) + (90x0.5x0.5) + (30x0.5x0.5x0.5) = $71.5 Expected Winnings
Accounting for transaction fees and taxes, that's about 1000 balloons.
His expected time commitment is estimated to be...
1 + (1x0.5) + (1x0.5x0.5) + (1x0.5x0.5) = 2 rounds, which might translate to ~2 hours when including waiting time.
His probability of getting $0 in prizes from the league is 0.5 + 0.5x0.5x0.5 = 67.5%
He might think that if he streams something else for ~2 hours, he can get more with certainty. By something else, I mean something that explicitly attempts to extract balloons from viewers.
I doubt that the players are using this exact logic, but they might be thinking along those lines. The popular players might think that this is too small. The unpopular players might worry about the large possibility of winning $0. Some of them also worry about the extra eyeballs that would descend upon them when they lose. Sometimes many rude fans will hurl insults at players when they lose league games.
Of course, this is extremely short-sighted in many respects. If you get good results in leagues, fans reward you with more balloons than you might normally get. You can attract more viewers and that eventually turns into income. Warning! Results spoiler: + Show Spoiler +For example, EffOrt got $2000 in consolation balloons from fans after losing the Ninus finals today.
Some of it is just general flakiness. I have seen at least one player miss a scheduled league game because he was playing a sponsored balloon match and it did not finish on time. That's just poor planning.
Final answer? Who knows. I have stopped trying to understand Afreeca. It's like Alice in Wonderland over there. 
I am not sure we can figure out the why. We just observe the "what" part.
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You're probably right.
Fans and casters are desperately sponsoring tournaments out of their own pocket, while simultaniously searching for sponsorships from both fans and companies, in hopes of reviving the bw-scene. It's extremely short-sighted to not attend tournaments, or take them seriously for that matter, for any ex-pro that want to keep playing brood war. Maybe they don't know their own impact on the chances of the revival of bw e-sports.
If casters can't get sponsorship, there are no prizes. If there are no prizes, gamers will not attend. If gamers won't attend, how are you going to find a sponsor? It's a bad circle, and gamers need to take their responsibility, given that they actually want the bw-scene revival ofcourse.
Why are they not improving their chances of greater fame and earnings. I mean, they're already playing alot of starcraft.
It just doesn't seem very smart... I'd be all over tournaments held by people looking for sponsorship from big companies.
Who knows what sort of chain reaction a major sponsorship would bring. It is possible that more people would return to BW from other games. It's my personal oppinion that BW always was the best game, and with incentive to come back we could be having a very prosperous future ahead.
I can't help but to feel an overall quite slack attitude towards the whole thing from the gamers.
Note that this critique isn't pointed towards all ex-pros.
I have my hopes in Flash especially, and I strongly support everyone who wants to revive BW. I'll chip in a few bucks where I can.
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On April 10 2016 02:27 lemmata wrote:EffOrt did not show up for some his quarter-final matches in the 41 Ranking Tournament.
he did not show up because...Flash and him were invited/paid to attend some sc2 games in the Afreeca studio that day?
Maybe EffOrt can be blamed for not informing the organizer beforehand of this(or did he?), but can he really say no to Afreeca's overtures just to attend some small online tourney
seriously korean trolls need to quit the bashing of progamers, they are not saints and if you are in their shoes you will have prioritize short term gains of money/streaming over any other stuff (including tournaments) as well.
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On April 10 2016 11:21 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 02:27 lemmata wrote:EffOrt did not show up for some his quarter-final matches in the 41 Ranking Tournament. he did not show up because...Flash and him were invited/paid to attend some sc2 games in the Afreeca studio that day? Maybe EffOrt can be blamed for not informing the organizer beforehand of this(or did he?), but can he really say no to Afreeca's overtures just to attend some small online tourney seriously korean trolls need to quit the bashing of progamers, they are not saints and if you are in their shoes you will have prioritize short term gains of money/streaming over any other stuff (including tournaments) as well.
I am not sure how you get trolls to quit anything they do, but I agree with the anti-bashing sentiment.
Whether players have good or bad reasons for not honoring commitments, the fact remains that ensuring participation is a practical problem for organizers. If financial incentives are the issue (which is what is suspected), then the best thing that organizers can do is utilize financial incentives themselves, which is something campaigns like this can improve.
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personally watched many live tournaments over the years, don't think theres ever the issue of non-participation/commitment like you make them out to be?
a few incidents of latecomers or no-show, but those are usually one-offs, generally the players do attend and play the whole tourney through. theres always at least a few big names attending in every notable tourney, and looking at the quality of play in any tourney, players do take them seriously (random stupid/cheesy games hardly exists).
so i do not get why you (and others) subjectively bash them for being "short-sighted" in that post above (and from your post it seems you simply bash EffOrt for being greedy without knowing that he has a legit reason for not attending, like wow really?)
many have streamed for a long time and certainly most of them by now should know the rewards of playing tourneys goes beyond the simple tangible prizepool. Maybe a few are more greedy/irresponsible/lack foresight but no amount of bashing or money will make them change their leopard spots anyway...
if they have legit reasons for not going because of schedule clashes or whatever(like EffOrt/41SL) it cannot be helped, just get a replacement or something, prizepool will not matter in these cases.
so there is no reason at all to blame the players.
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On April 10 2016 14:57 Probemicro wrote:
personally watched many live tournaments over the years, don't think theres ever the issue of non-participation/commitment like you make them out to be?
a few incidents of latecomers or no-show, but those are usually one-offs, generally the players do attend and play the whole tourney through. theres always at least a few big names attending in every notable tourney, and looking at the quality of play in any tourney, players do take them seriously (random stupid/cheesy games hardly exists).
so i do not get why you (and others) subjectively bash them for being "short-sighted" in that post above (and from your post it seems you simply bash EffOrt for being greedy without knowing that he has a legit reason for not attending, like wow really?)
many have streamed for a long time and certainly most of them by now should know the rewards of playing tourneys goes beyond the simple tangible prizepool. Maybe a few are more greedy/irresponsible/lack foresight but no amount of bashing or money will make them change their leopard spots anyway...
if they have legit reasons for not going because of schedule clashes or whatever(like EffOrt/41SL) it cannot be helped, just get a replacement or something, prizepool will not matter in these cases.
so there is no reason at all to blame the players.
I think you misunderstand. No one has "blamed" the players here. Blame would mean sort of moral or causal responsibility. The worst that might be said about the players is that they possibly have inaccurate views about what might best serve them.
If you think that making the factual statement that sometimes players do not honor tournament commitments is bashing, then I guess we will have to disagree. In fact, I went very far to give a calculated justification of why the players might believe that the rewards are too small. You might have interpreted that as me trying to say that they are greedy. That is not what I intended at all. I was actually trying to say that they might be acting rationally but with incorrect information. That is what's meant by "short-sighted". That is not an attack on their moral character.
Also, even when there are good reasons and no one is "at fault", it does not change the fact that situations like that are difficult for organizers. It could possibly reduce the legitimacy of the event or cause loss of credibility. "Just getting a replacement" is not a simple deal. Those willing to put up a nontrivial amount of money to sponsor an event care about this stuff. Again, the fact that organizers might face difficulties is not an attack on the players at all. That's just an unfortunate consequence.
Don't get hung up on EffOrt being mentioned. That was just the most recent absence that came to mind. If you are an EffOrt fan and felt that this was unfair to him I apologize. I was only interested in mentioning that players potentially missing events was something organizers worry about.
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On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote:
I think you misunderstand. No one has "blamed" the players here. Blame would mean sort of moral or causal responsibility. The worst that might be said about the players is that they possibly have inaccurate views about what might best serve them.
you are blaming the players for not fulfilling/attending tourneys because
1) they are shortsighted (not seeing rewards)
2) flakiness
when actually
1) they do attend almost the tournaments, basically discussing a non-issue
2) you are not the player, don't put words in their mouths that they are do not think about long term aspects of the issue when many may do. They may look goofy and idiotic on stream at times but its all an act and they DO know what they are doing.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote:
If you think that making the factual statement that sometimes players do not honor tournament commitments is bashing, then I guess we will have to disagree. In fact, I went very far to give a calculated justification of why the players might believe that the rewards are too small. You might have interpreted that as me trying to say that they are greedy. That is not what I intended at all. I was actually trying to say that they might be acting rationally but with incorrect information. That is what's meant by "short-sighted". That is not an attack on their moral character.
i think you were bashing in the first post simply because you are giving justifications (even with mathematical calculations) for effort skipping out on 41sl, insinuating that he skips out on it simply because he thinks its not worth the money
when in fact he left because of a legit reason (since you did not state the actual reason i assumed you are ignorant about it until i mentioned it). your post suggests that the bulk of them leaves because no $ rather than legit reasons, which you should not wantonly imply without actual proof.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote:
Also, even when there are good reasons and no one is "at fault", it does not change the fact that situations like that are difficult for organizers. It could possibly reduce the legitimacy of the event or cause loss of credibility. "Just getting a replacement" is not a simple deal. Those willing to put up a nontrivial amount of money to sponsor an event care about this stuff. Again, the fact that organizers might face difficulties is not an attack on the players at all. That's just an unfortunate consequence.
like i said non-attendance seems to be very uncommon anyway and is usually restricted to a few cases at most per tourney, if not hardly ever. If effort leaves 41sl because he has a legit reason, why would this cause 41sl to lose credibility or legitimacy?? when sponsors fund a tourney they should be prepared for anything and have trust that the organizers have put in contingencies in case of unfortunate absences/incidents (walkovers/replacements/whatever). usually this kind of stuff happens in the early rounds which the organizers should have been ready for. yes they care but it should not be a big issue at all. as an avid viewer i can clearly see it isn't a really big issue too, i've seen replacements in ro32 of some random tourneys, the organizers deal with it well.
if there was an idiot that constantly leaves halfway through tourneys, yes maybe you should not invite him in the first place. but no such idiot exists in the current scene. so "sponsors don't feel like funding tourneys because players tend to be irresponsible" should not even be a notion, organizers should actually be proud that the playerbase we had is mostly responsible
TLDR
players are not perfect but in general they are smarter and more responsible than you think
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On April 10 2016 18:45 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote:
I think you misunderstand. No one has "blamed" the players here. Blame would mean sort of moral or causal responsibility. The worst that might be said about the players is that they possibly have inaccurate views about what might best serve them.
you are blaming the players for not fulfilling/attending tourneys because 1) they are shortsighted (not seeing rewards) 2) flakiness when actually 1) they do attend almost the tournaments, basically discussing a non-issue 2) you are not the player, don't put words in their mouths that they are do not think about long term aspects of the issue when many may do. They may look goofy and idiotic on stream at times but its all an act and they DO know what they are doing. Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote:
If you think that making the factual statement that sometimes players do not honor tournament commitments is bashing, then I guess we will have to disagree. In fact, I went very far to give a calculated justification of why the players might believe that the rewards are too small. You might have interpreted that as me trying to say that they are greedy. That is not what I intended at all. I was actually trying to say that they might be acting rationally but with incorrect information. That is what's meant by "short-sighted". That is not an attack on their moral character. i think you were bashing in the first post simply because you are giving justifications (even with mathematical calculations) for effort skipping out on 41sl, insinuating that he skips out on it simply because he thinks its not worth the money when in fact he left because of a legit reason (since you did not state the actual reason i assumed you are ignorant about it until i mentioned it). your post suggests that the bulk of them leaves because no $ rather than legit reasons, which you should not wantonly imply without actual proof. Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote:
Also, even when there are good reasons and no one is "at fault", it does not change the fact that situations like that are difficult for organizers. It could possibly reduce the legitimacy of the event or cause loss of credibility. "Just getting a replacement" is not a simple deal. Those willing to put up a nontrivial amount of money to sponsor an event care about this stuff. Again, the fact that organizers might face difficulties is not an attack on the players at all. That's just an unfortunate consequence. like i said non-attendance seems to be very uncommon anyway and is usually restricted to a few cases at most per tourney, if not hardly ever. If effort leaves 41sl because he has a legit reason, why would this cause 41sl to lose credibility or legitimacy?? when sponsors fund a tourney they should be prepared for anything and have trust that the organizers have put in contingencies in case of unfortunate absences/incidents (walkovers/replacements/whatever). usually this kind of stuff happens in the early rounds which the organizers should have been ready for. yes they care but it should not be a big issue at all. as an avid viewer i can clearly see it isn't a really big issue too, i've seen replacements in ro32 of some random tourneys, the organizers deal with it well. if there was an idiot that constantly leaves halfway through tourneys, yes maybe you should not invite him in the first place. but no such idiot exists in the current scene. so "sponsors don't feel like funding tourneys because players tend to be irresponsible" should not even be a notion, organizers should actually be proud that the playerbase we had is mostly responsible TLDR players are not perfect but in general they are smarter and more responsible than you think
Since when are $ not legitimate reasons? Do we not live in a capitalist society? I personally think that, with the difficult situation that many players face, they *should* choose actions that give them more $s. Maybe that's why you think that I am bashing. I think that they should choose options with more $s. You seem to think that I am saying that it's bad that they choose $s, but that's not the case at all. Again: I want them to take the $$$ options. It's just that I think that they are mistaken about how to get more more $s in the long run. Hence the "short-sighted" comment. I am sad because I think they could make more money not because I think they're greedy. I wish they would be *more* greedy in that sense!
EffOrt skipping the 41 Ranking Tournament to visit the Afreeca studio is fine. He was likely paid more $s for that and it strengthens his business relationship with Afreeca, which is a much bigger entity than 41. He obviously also participated in Afreeca related events that week, too. I just wish he had planned his week a bit better since he would have had some advance notice. By the way, EffOrt also had a walkover loss in 41 League Season 4. The reason then was that he was late in getting to Terror's house to participate in the shaving of Bisu's eyebrows. I don't think EffOrt is greedy for doing that, I think he should take Terror's $s. I do wish that he had planned his trip better. Movie also had a walkover loss in the 41 Ranking Tournament because he started a balloon match close to the start time and it just went on too long. Again, I think Movie should play all the balloon matches he can. I just wish he had planned his day better. I don't know if 41 is snake-bitten, but there was also a previous smaller 41 event in which Tyson went missing for 24 hours and left everyone scrambling because no walkover loss policy was in effect back then.
There's a ton of stuff like this that you don't ever hear about. For small-time organizers with a very tight budget, mid-league drop-outs are stressful even if they are "infrequent" occurrences, especially if it's a player who draws interest. The organizers don't blame the players, but they do think about how to make their events more attractive to the players.
If you still think that is bashing, let's just forget about it, at least in this thread. I don't want to derail this thread with a debate that we should really take offline over a glass of beer. In retrospect, I should have not been "short-sighted" myself by bringing up a potentially sensitive issue in a conversation about something completely different.
EDIT: Just in case there is any confusion, all of my posts reflect my opinion and my opinion only. KCM thinks that he has a responsibility as an elder statesman of BW to help create a self-sustaining economy and take care of everything else so that the players can concentrate only on playing at the highest level possible. That's why he gives players win streak prizes out of his own pocket even when the crowdfunding does not include that. One time, a Korean donor pulled out at the last minute, leaving a large hole in the prize pool where there was expected to be none. He paid the players out of his own pocket that time, too. The man is a saint compared to me (or most people for that matter). His fans regularly beg him not to do that, but he insists.
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United States2948 Posts
^^Thanks for sharing these tidbits, lemmata it's really heartwarming to hear KCM, among others, has been sustaining this grass roots effort out of his own pockets. I can't imagine how big a blow Sonic/SBENU's situation has been to the scene and its reputation, so I feel beyond fortunate to have entities like KCM, Kim Carry, Kongdoo, etc., albeit not together, working towards staging competitions and securing sponsorship.
Very much agree the players should plan better if they've previously committed to days/times of play, or at the very least, notify the organizer in advance to arrange an alternate time so the audience does't get, effectively, punished with missing players, while making the organizer look bad...
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Hello everyone!
I would like to thank BisuDagger for agreeing to do English casts of KLMs starting on April 28! He very generously agreed to upload those casts to my YouTube channel as well. Thank you so much!
I also tried to find out what this long conversation was about, but it was too hard for me to understand even with translations. However, I was glad to hear that you are sympathetic to the situations faced by many players. I feel that way, too!
I am very proud to say that many players find the KCM Legend Match very attractive as an event because we do our best to make them feel comfortable and make it worthwhile for them.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
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On April 12 2016 12:40 kimcheolmin wrote:
Hello everyone!
I would like to thank BisuDagger for agreeing to do English casts of KLMs starting on April 28! He very generously agreed to upload those casts to my YouTube channel as well. Thank you so much!
I also tried to find out what this long conversation was about, but it was too hard for me to understand even with translations. However, I was glad to hear that you are sympathetic to the situations faced by many players. I feel that way, too!
I am very proud to say that many players find the KCM Legend Match very attractive as an event because we do our best to make them feel comfortable and make it worthwhile for them.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
The hype is real!!!!!
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Bisudagger, will you be doing these solo, or will other casters join in on occasion?
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
On April 13 2016 12:20 The Intrepid wrote:
Bisudagger, will you be doing these solo, or will other casters join in on occasion?
AmazingXKCD messaged me yesterday that he should be able to join in.  But, if he misses a cast I may message around for guest co-hosts.
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On April 13 2016 16:59 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 12:20 The Intrepid wrote:
Bisudagger, will you be doing these solo, or will other casters join in on occasion? AmazingXKCD messaged me yesterday that he should be able to join in. But, if he misses a cast I may message around for guest co-hosts.
Nice! 
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
wow i did not hear of this, glad i got to see this..
i'll help out whatever way i can!
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On April 13 2016 16:59 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 12:20 The Intrepid wrote:
Bisudagger, will you be doing these solo, or will other casters join in on occasion? AmazingXKCD messaged me yesterday that he should be able to join in. But, if he misses a cast I may message around for guest co-hosts.
hi
Also, KCM take it easy, and remember to have fun. Please don't stress yourself out.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On April 13 2016 16:59 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 12:20 The Intrepid wrote:
Bisudagger, will you be doing these solo, or will other casters join in on occasion? AmazingXKCD messaged me yesterday that he should be able to join in. But, if he misses a cast I may message around for guest co-hosts.
yup! if we're doing delayed casts from replays, I'll be there !
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EPT
