Hello TeamLiquid readers! My name is Kim Cheolmin. Many of you may know me as the loud Korean caster from MSL broadcasts. As you can see from the picture above, I am always shouting.
I hope that you have been enjoying the weekly KCM Legend Matches that have been going on for the last few months.
To fund these matches, I relied on donations from Korean fans and short-term sponsorship deals. At times, I even paid for the matches out of my own pocket.
I would like to continue holding these weekly matches, but I have recently run out of funds to keep them going. As a temporary measure, I have started a crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo.
For every 1000 dollars raised, I can keep the KCM Legend Matches going for another week. The immediate goal is to fund the matches for another two weeks.
However, I also have a longer term goal that is far more important. Right now, the viewership levels for Brood War are very high in Korea. The KCM Legend Match often gets almost 100,000 views each week with up to 10,000 people connecting simultaneously. However, despite those numbers, finding a respectable sponsor is not easy because Starcraft is often perceived negatively in corporate board rooms.
If this crowdfunding campaign succeeds, then I will have a powerful story to tell potential sponsors in Korea. For better or for worse, many Korean corporations highly value the validation that comes from being recognized internationally. By contributing to this campaign, you have a chance to give Brood War this kind of validation in the eyes of potential sponsors in Korea. In other words, your contributions may have a snowballing effect of sorts that keeps competitive Brood War going.
To add an interesting wrinkle, I have added a somewhat expensive option (called a "perk" on Indiegogo) for you to purchase the right to nominate a player to take part in a KCM Legend Match. For example, perhaps one of you would like to see Sziky or Fengzi. If you are willing to fund the prize pool for one week, we can make that a reality as long as lag is not a significant hindrance. Of course, you can also just choose a specific Korean player you like instead.
It's okay if you are unable to make such a huge commitment. Any amount, even $1, that you can contribute would be very appreciated! If you can't contribute, I hope that you will share information about the campaign on social media and encourage others to contribute. Convincing a friend to contribute requires a lot of passion. From scanning this site, I can see that foreign Brood War fans are just as passionate as Korean fans if not more so. It makes me hopeful.
Thank you so much. Long live Brood War!
Meanwhile, please check out my YouTube channel, where the KCM Legend Matches are uploaded weekly.
Note: Hat tip to lemmata, who translated this message for me.
I want to make a short note here about a question that will surely be asked.
It seems that getting Bisu to participate will be difficult because of various reasons outside of KCM's control.
Flash recently said on his AfreecaTV stream that he is interested in "eventually" participating in the KCM Legend Matches. KCM cannot guarantee that Flash will participate but when Flash feels that he is ready, I think that it is likely that he will talk to KCM.
Also, KCM understands that other league formats might be more attractive to viewers, but the KCM Legend Match format was chosen for practical reasons. Unless the prize pool is absolutely huge (and sometimes even when it is), players often flake out on league commitments for various reasons, which is something KCM wants to avoid at all costs to make sure that he can keep any promises made to potential sponsors. For now, the KCM Legend Match format allows him enough lineup flexibility week-to-week that he never has to worry about that.
If he can attract a large sponsorship deal, then he might be able to use other formats, but KCM is very cautious about not making any promises he might break.
Even before his small sponsorship deal ran out, KCM was taking money out of his own pocket to pay the players for achieving win streaks. Right now, he is taking a long-term view of accepting some short-term losses because he believes that Brood War still has a future in Korea.
...how about getting some (korean or otherwise) amateurs to play in these KCM series?
I understand getting only former pros is the main appeal of these "Legend" matches, but if you really want to talk about propping up and sustaining the BW scene, there needs to be new blood, new names for people to cheer on and support. "Starcraft is often perceived negatively in corporate board rooms.", why support a scene that does not support and nurture new players (no long term future)?
If you rope amateurs in these showmatches as well, it will be a great way to give them competitive experience and provide incentive for them to improve and play well. you have these weekly race series, just get 1 amateur for each race. quite a bunch of amateurs obtained S rank in the last fish ladder (like BishOp), it would be great for development if players like him get the chances to play in these series
On April 06 2016 11:32 Bakuryu wrote: Does the nominated Player has to play in 1 of those 2 weeks or can he play later?.... and by how much later?
I will ask KCM and get back to you, but I think that you could nominate the player to participate later if there are more KLMs scheduled for later. So the short answer is: Until the last of the currently scheduled KLMs.
On April 06 2016 12:01 Probemicro wrote: ...how about getting some (korean or otherwise) amateurs to play in these KCM series?
I understand getting only former pros is the main appeal of these "Legend" matches, but if you really want to talk about propping up and sustaining the BW scene, there needs to be new blood, new names for people to cheer on and support. "Starcraft is often perceived negatively in corporate board rooms.", why support a scene that does not support and nurture new players (no long term future)?
If you rope amateurs in these showmatches as well, it will be a great way to give them competitive experience and provide incentive for them to improve and play well. you have these weekly race series, just get 1 amateur for each race. quite a bunch of amateurs obtained S rank in the last fish ladder (like BishOp), it would be great for development if players like him get the chances to play in these series
Amateurs were mentioned when I talked to KCM. Of course, he would like to have amateurs, too. Unfortunately, it's just not practical at the moment because there isn't enough money.
There's almost no one willing to put up significant money to have amateurs compete against pros. The viewers' interest is also low. Since KCM is not rich (and even has some debt) he needs to rely on external funding. It's hard enough to get corporate sponsors for matches between pros. For what it's worth, I think the negative image has quite a lot more to do with the past match-fixing (and, to a lesser extent, people like...let me redact that) than it does with the absence of new blood.
However, the Sbenu and Vant Starleagues gave chances to amateurs and the upcoming Afreeca Starleague will likely do so as well. Big sponsorship deals like those are needed if you want to give opportunities to amateurs. As KCM said, succeeding with this crowdfunding could help him get a bigger sponsorship in the future, which might be big enough to help infuse new blood into the scene.
KCM agrees with you that new blood is needed, it's just not feasible at this exact instant. He's thinking about it though for sure.
On April 06 2016 13:23 lemmata wrote: For what it's worth, I think the negative image has quite a lot more to do with the past match-fixing (and, to a lesser extent, people like...let me redact that) than it does with the absence of new blood.
maybe in the past but i highly doubt its the major factor anymore (it was overblown in the first place anyway). matchfixing has also happened in sc2 and that has not stopped afreeca from adopting the GSL and sponsoring an sc2 team. hard to reject blizzard's $$$ anyway also "redact" has quit streaming and stopped playing. Unsavory things has also happened in other esports like LoL but i don't see people quit playing LoL in korea anytime soon.
anyway, at least its good to see that KCM has taken amateurs into consideration, I will chip in and wish him the best in his endeavours to keep the BW scene alive
On another note, what about the testing and using of new map, The legends match series does have a reputation of having players pick some wacky maps like zero picking fastest map possible against last a few weeks ago and a number of older island maps from a couple of weeks ago, but how about maps that are being made or still worked on today, Kim Carry did a few tests of these maps on his stream with players like Mind, BeSt and ZerO a few weeks ago.
On April 06 2016 11:32 Bakuryu wrote: Does the nominated Player has to play in 1 of those 2 weeks or can he play later?.... and by how much later?
When the crowdfunding campaign ends in 30 days, you can nominate the player to play in ANY subsequent KCM Legend Match. There is no restriction.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
On April 06 2016 16:32 quirinus wrote: If I wasn't a poor student, I'd donate.
Thank you for your interest! It is okay if you cannot donate. I appreciate that you want to but cannot. Please tell your friends about the campaign if you can.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
On April 06 2016 13:46 BLinD-RawR wrote: On another note, what about the testing and using of new map, The legends match series does have a reputation of having players pick some wacky maps like zero picking fastest map possible against last a few weeks ago and a number of older island maps from a couple of weeks ago, but how about maps that are being made or still worked on today, Kim Carry did a few tests of these maps on his stream with players like Mind, BeSt and ZerO a few weeks ago.
We do want to use new maps at some point, but public opinion from our viewers are quite split on this issue so the process of picking a new map will need to be long and thorough. Every week, I have online and offline meetings with fans to discuss and debate league policies. (lemmata's note: This is true. I have heard the man debate map picking with fans on his Afreeca radio program for hours. He usually does the radio program after each KLM)
It is good to know that international fans are also interested in new maps. I will take your advice into consideration in the future.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
Thank you everyone for your support! Your passion is amazing.
I was even more nervous about trying this than I was during the MSL finals.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
Note from lemmata: This is the last post he asked me to make today, but he will probably ask again when he sees more posts.
That picture + 1st paragraph ... amazing entrance!
Hello TeamLiquid readers! My name is Kim Cheolmin. Many of you may know me as the loud Korean caster from MSL broadcasts. As you can see from the picture above, I am always shouting.
However if you want to have the foreign scene at your side, broadcasting in English would be nice. You don't need to get Tasteless or Artosis, but I think most of us are interested on your and other korean commentators expertise. Will you also broadcast in English? I think it would be nice to have a funding goal like 10000$ then you also cast in English or something. Or do a duo/trio cast of Korean commentators with Artosis and/or Tasteless!
So if someone donates 1,000$ which is the amount you say is needed to fund it for an additional week, we can nominate any player we want to participate? (e.g. a current foreigner)
On April 08 2016 03:24 ProtossGG wrote: So if someone donates 1,000$ which is the amount you say is needed to fund it for an additional week, we can nominate any player we want to participate? (e.g. a current foreigner)
On April 07 2016 21:46 duke91 wrote: I will donate for sure and tell my friends.
However if you want to have the foreign scene at your side, broadcasting in English would be nice. You don't need to get Tasteless or Artosis, but I think most of us are interested on your and other korean commentators expertise. Will you also broadcast in English? I think it would be nice to have a funding goal like 10000$ then you also cast in English or something. Or do a duo/trio cast of Korean commentators with Artosis and/or Tasteless!
Dear Mr./Ms. duke91: Getting an English casting team is something that I am very interested in doing. In fact, GTR has been doing officially sanctioned English-language streams of KLMs over the last month or so. You can check out his work on my YouTube channel. I am very appreciative of what he has done.
A couple of quick replies to the related ideas you raised:
1) Due to our limited budget, getting a team like Artosis and Tasteless might be difficult since they are doing excellent work broadcasting other games. You raise a good point about doing a larger campaign with such popular casters as targets. However, I want to start by taking baby steps first. It took me over a month just to figure out how sign up for PayPal, so please go easy on me. I need to clear the fundraising game at the "Beginner Difficulty" level before I can try harder levels.
2) If you know experienced English-speaking Brood War casters who are interested in casting KLMs, please tell them to contact me. I know from talking to lemmata that there are users named BisuDagger and Sayle who often cast games in English, but my knowledge is otherwise limited. My English is very bad and my computer skills are even worse so I often rely on other people for information! Unfortunately, the most I might be able to offer at this exact moment might be live streaming rights...but if we can continue to grow, who knows?
On April 08 2016 03:24 ProtossGG wrote: So if someone donates 1,000$ which is the amount you say is needed to fund it for an additional week, we can nominate any player we want to participate? (e.g. a current foreigner)
Dear Mr./Ms. ProtossGG: Indeed! That's the idea.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate. This is today's batch of replies.
Thank you for the responses KCM and lemmata for translating! It's so amazing to communicate directly with an icon of the Korean Brood War scene right here on Teamliquid ^^
Here's something that KCM didn't mention today, but it came up in conversations I had with him last month. Some of the details are fuzzy in my mind, but this is what I recall:
Right now, he is a member of "Treasure Hunter", which is a multi-channel creators' network (MCN, another one of those internet-age business acronyms). You can think of it as a "talent" agency of sorts. It is thanks to Treasure Hunter that KCM is able to get studio time and staff support. That studio time and staff support is a form of investment in KCM.
The way this support system works sounds a little bit like school. If you get good "grades" (viewers, PR, fundraising), they give you more studio time, staff support, video editing, and even help finding sponsors. Right now, KCM's results are good enough for a couple hours of studio time per week, which he uses for KLMs. Some of Treasure Hunter's star creators, who are among the most popular people on Afreeca and Korean YouTube, get quite a lot of support.
Partly because he is an uncompromising perfectionist (perhaps to his own detriment, and partly because he knows absolutely nothing about using computers and cannot do most technical things on his own), the limits to his studio time are also a binding constraint on the kind of events he can organize at this moment.
I say all of this just to bring up the following point: I think that this crowdfunding campaign is less about the money for two weeks than it is about expanding the realm of possibilities. KCM views it as important more for its future impact than for the two more weeks of KLMs that will immediately come out of it.
If it was only about the money, then KCM could just probably raise some by dancing a funny jig. Granted, that would be totally hilarious...
GOD that must be extremely frustrating. You have the product, the talent, the passion, and the viewers....but you can't get sponsored in spite of that. I can't imagine what that's like when you're sitting on top of a gold mine but can't do anything about it.
On April 07 2016 21:46 duke91 wrote: I will donate for sure and tell my friends.
However if you want to have the foreign scene at your side, broadcasting in English would be nice. You don't need to get Tasteless or Artosis, but I think most of us are interested on your and other korean commentators expertise. Will you also broadcast in English? I think it would be nice to have a funding goal like 10000$ then you also cast in English or something. Or do a duo/trio cast of Korean commentators with Artosis and/or Tasteless!
Dear Mr./Ms. duke91: Getting an English casting team is something that I am very interested in doing. In fact, GTR has been doing officially sanctioned English-language streams of KLMs over the last month or so. You can check out his work on my YouTube channel. I am very appreciative of what he has done.
A couple of quick replies to the related ideas you raised:
1) Due to our limited budget, getting a team like Artosis and Tasteless might be difficult since they are doing excellent work broadcasting other games. You raise a good point about doing a larger campaign with such popular casters as targets. However, I want to start by taking baby steps first. It took me over a month just to figure out how sign up for PayPal, so please go easy on me. I need to clear the fundraising game at the "Beginner Difficulty" level before I can try harder levels.
2) If you know experienced English-speaking Brood War casters who are interested in casting KLMs, please tell them to contact me. I know from talking to lemmata that there are users named BisuDagger and Sayle who often cast games in English, but my knowledge is otherwise limited. My English is very bad and my computer skills are even worse so I often rely on other people for information! Unfortunately, the most I might be able to offer at this exact moment might be live streaming rights...but if we can continue to grow, who knows?
On April 08 2016 03:24 ProtossGG wrote: So if someone donates 1,000$ which is the amount you say is needed to fund it for an additional week, we can nominate any player we want to participate? (e.g. a current foreigner)
Dear Mr./Ms. ProtossGG: Indeed! That's the idea.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate. This is today's batch of replies.
I wasn't casting these because GTR was. If you want me to help out with this, I'd be more then happy too. I think both AmazingXKCD and I were waiting to see if we were going to be signed up for the next AfreecaTV Starleague. PM if you need anything. Edit: no charge for my casting
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule.
On April 08 2016 20:50 StylishVODs wrote: I'm supporting this! <3
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule.
probably because they can get more money through individual streaming
On April 08 2016 20:50 StylishVODs wrote: I'm supporting this! <3
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule.
probably because they can get more money through individual streaming
players are allowed to stream while playing in the showmatch so its not like they're losing anything.
On April 08 2016 20:50 StylishVODs wrote: I'm supporting this! <3
It seems wierd to me that some ex-pro's don't show up for tournaments at times, due to lacking prize pools. Seems as if they have the most to gain on a BW ressurection. Specially since they can stream simultaniously.
Ofcourse, it's possible that they have other jobs that interfere with the tournament-schedule.
probably because they can get more money through individual streaming
players are allowed to stream while playing in the showmatch so its not like they're losing anything.
It's not really clear. Most of leagues these days have no prizes for 4th place or below.
EffOrt did not show up for some his quarter-final matches in the 41 Ranking Tournament. Assuming that he has a 50/50 chance in every match up, you might say that his expected winnings are estimated as follows.
Accounting for transaction fees and taxes, that's about 1000 balloons.
His expected time commitment is estimated to be...
1 + (1x0.5) + (1x0.5x0.5) + (1x0.5x0.5) = 2 rounds, which might translate to ~2 hours when including waiting time.
His probability of getting $0 in prizes from the league is 0.5 + 0.5x0.5x0.5 = 67.5%
He might think that if he streams something else for ~2 hours, he can get more with certainty. By something else, I mean something that explicitly attempts to extract balloons from viewers.
I doubt that the players are using this exact logic, but they might be thinking along those lines. The popular players might think that this is too small. The unpopular players might worry about the large possibility of winning $0. Some of them also worry about the extra eyeballs that would descend upon them when they lose. Sometimes many rude fans will hurl insults at players when they lose league games.
Of course, this is extremely short-sighted in many respects. If you get good results in leagues, fans reward you with more balloons than you might normally get. You can attract more viewers and that eventually turns into income. Warning! Results spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
For example, EffOrt got $2000 in consolation balloons from fans after losing the Ninus finals today.
If the scene grows because tournaments are successful, then you can also expect to get more opportunities in the future. Many of them do not really seem to think about stuff like that. Convincing them is like herding cats. I would guess that there is a bit of prisoner's dilemma style incentive at play as well.
Some of it is just general flakiness. I have seen at least one player miss a scheduled league game because he was playing a sponsored balloon match and it did not finish on time. That's just poor planning.
Final answer? Who knows. I have stopped trying to understand Afreeca. It's like Alice in Wonderland over there.
I am not sure we can figure out the why. We just observe the "what" part.
Fans and casters are desperately sponsoring tournaments out of their own pocket, while simultaniously searching for sponsorships from both fans and companies, in hopes of reviving the bw-scene. It's extremely short-sighted to not attend tournaments, or take them seriously for that matter, for any ex-pro that want to keep playing brood war. Maybe they don't know their own impact on the chances of the revival of bw e-sports.
If casters can't get sponsorship, there are no prizes. If there are no prizes, gamers will not attend. If gamers won't attend, how are you going to find a sponsor? It's a bad circle, and gamers need to take their responsibility, given that they actually want the bw-scene revival ofcourse.
Why are they not improving their chances of greater fame and earnings. I mean, they're already playing alot of starcraft. It just doesn't seem very smart... I'd be all over tournaments held by people looking for sponsorship from big companies.
Who knows what sort of chain reaction a major sponsorship would bring. It is possible that more people would return to BW from other games. It's my personal oppinion that BW always was the best game, and with incentive to come back we could be having a very prosperous future ahead.
I can't help but to feel an overall quite slack attitude towards the whole thing from the gamers. Note that this critique isn't pointed towards all ex-pros.
I have my hopes in Flash especially, and I strongly support everyone who wants to revive BW. I'll chip in a few bucks where I can.
On April 10 2016 02:27 lemmata wrote: EffOrt did not show up for some his quarter-final matches in the 41 Ranking Tournament.
he did not show up because...Flash and him were invited/paid to attend some sc2 games in the Afreeca studio that day?
Maybe EffOrt can be blamed for not informing the organizer beforehand of this(or did he?), but can he really say no to Afreeca's overtures just to attend some small online tourney
seriously korean trolls need to quit the bashing of progamers, they are not saints and if you are in their shoes you will have prioritize short term gains of money/streaming over any other stuff (including tournaments) as well.
On April 10 2016 02:27 lemmata wrote: EffOrt did not show up for some his quarter-final matches in the 41 Ranking Tournament.
he did not show up because...Flash and him were invited/paid to attend some sc2 games in the Afreeca studio that day?
Maybe EffOrt can be blamed for not informing the organizer beforehand of this(or did he?), but can he really say no to Afreeca's overtures just to attend some small online tourney
seriously korean trolls need to quit the bashing of progamers, they are not saints and if you are in their shoes you will have prioritize short term gains of money/streaming over any other stuff (including tournaments) as well.
I am not sure how you get trolls to quit anything they do, but I agree with the anti-bashing sentiment.
Whether players have good or bad reasons for not honoring commitments, the fact remains that ensuring participation is a practical problem for organizers. If financial incentives are the issue (which is what is suspected), then the best thing that organizers can do is utilize financial incentives themselves, which is something campaigns like this can improve.
personally watched many live tournaments over the years, don't think theres ever the issue of non-participation/commitment like you make them out to be?
a few incidents of latecomers or no-show, but those are usually one-offs, generally the players do attend and play the whole tourney through. theres always at least a few big names attending in every notable tourney, and looking at the quality of play in any tourney, players do take them seriously (random stupid/cheesy games hardly exists).
so i do not get why you (and others) subjectively bash them for being "short-sighted" in that post above (and from your post it seems you simply bash EffOrt for being greedy without knowing that he has a legit reason for not attending, like wow really?)
many have streamed for a long time and certainly most of them by now should know the rewards of playing tourneys goes beyond the simple tangible prizepool. Maybe a few are more greedy/irresponsible/lack foresight but no amount of bashing or money will make them change their leopard spots anyway...
if they have legit reasons for not going because of schedule clashes or whatever(like EffOrt/41SL) it cannot be helped, just get a replacement or something, prizepool will not matter in these cases.
so there is no reason at all to blame the players.
On April 10 2016 14:57 Probemicro wrote: personally watched many live tournaments over the years, don't think theres ever the issue of non-participation/commitment like you make them out to be?
a few incidents of latecomers or no-show, but those are usually one-offs, generally the players do attend and play the whole tourney through. theres always at least a few big names attending in every notable tourney, and looking at the quality of play in any tourney, players do take them seriously (random stupid/cheesy games hardly exists).
so i do not get why you (and others) subjectively bash them for being "short-sighted" in that post above (and from your post it seems you simply bash EffOrt for being greedy without knowing that he has a legit reason for not attending, like wow really?)
many have streamed for a long time and certainly most of them by now should know the rewards of playing tourneys goes beyond the simple tangible prizepool. Maybe a few are more greedy/irresponsible/lack foresight but no amount of bashing or money will make them change their leopard spots anyway...
if they have legit reasons for not going because of schedule clashes or whatever(like EffOrt/41SL) it cannot be helped, just get a replacement or something, prizepool will not matter in these cases.
so there is no reason at all to blame the players.
I think you misunderstand. No one has "blamed" the players here. Blame would mean sort of moral or causal responsibility. The worst that might be said about the players is that they possibly have inaccurate views about what might best serve them.
If you think that making the factual statement that sometimes players do not honor tournament commitments is bashing, then I guess we will have to disagree. In fact, I went very far to give a calculated justification of why the players might believe that the rewards are too small. You might have interpreted that as me trying to say that they are greedy. That is not what I intended at all. I was actually trying to say that they might be acting rationally but with incorrect information. That is what's meant by "short-sighted". That is not an attack on their moral character.
Also, even when there are good reasons and no one is "at fault", it does not change the fact that situations like that are difficult for organizers. It could possibly reduce the legitimacy of the event or cause loss of credibility. "Just getting a replacement" is not a simple deal. Those willing to put up a nontrivial amount of money to sponsor an event care about this stuff. Again, the fact that organizers might face difficulties is not an attack on the players at all. That's just an unfortunate consequence.
Don't get hung up on EffOrt being mentioned. That was just the most recent absence that came to mind. If you are an EffOrt fan and felt that this was unfair to him I apologize. I was only interested in mentioning that players potentially missing events was something organizers worry about.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote: I think you misunderstand. No one has "blamed" the players here. Blame would mean sort of moral or causal responsibility. The worst that might be said about the players is that they possibly have inaccurate views about what might best serve them.
you are blaming the players for not fulfilling/attending tourneys because 1) they are shortsighted (not seeing rewards) 2) flakiness
when actually 1) they do attend almost the tournaments, basically discussing a non-issue 2) you are not the player, don't put words in their mouths that they are do not think about long term aspects of the issue when many may do. They may look goofy and idiotic on stream at times but its all an act and they DO know what they are doing.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote: If you think that making the factual statement that sometimes players do not honor tournament commitments is bashing, then I guess we will have to disagree. In fact, I went very far to give a calculated justification of why the players might believe that the rewards are too small. You might have interpreted that as me trying to say that they are greedy. That is not what I intended at all. I was actually trying to say that they might be acting rationally but with incorrect information. That is what's meant by "short-sighted". That is not an attack on their moral character.
i think you were bashing in the first post simply because you are giving justifications (even with mathematical calculations) for effort skipping out on 41sl, insinuating that he skips out on it simply because he thinks its not worth the money when in fact he left because of a legit reason (since you did not state the actual reason i assumed you are ignorant about it until i mentioned it). your post suggests that the bulk of them leaves because no $ rather than legit reasons, which you should not wantonly imply without actual proof.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote: Also, even when there are good reasons and no one is "at fault", it does not change the fact that situations like that are difficult for organizers. It could possibly reduce the legitimacy of the event or cause loss of credibility. "Just getting a replacement" is not a simple deal. Those willing to put up a nontrivial amount of money to sponsor an event care about this stuff. Again, the fact that organizers might face difficulties is not an attack on the players at all. That's just an unfortunate consequence.
like i said non-attendance seems to be very uncommon anyway and is usually restricted to a few cases at most per tourney, if not hardly ever. If effort leaves 41sl because he has a legit reason, why would this cause 41sl to lose credibility or legitimacy?? when sponsors fund a tourney they should be prepared for anything and have trust that the organizers have put in contingencies in case of unfortunate absences/incidents (walkovers/replacements/whatever). usually this kind of stuff happens in the early rounds which the organizers should have been ready for. yes they care but it should not be a big issue at all. as an avid viewer i can clearly see it isn't a really big issue too, i've seen replacements in ro32 of some random tourneys, the organizers deal with it well.
if there was an idiot that constantly leaves halfway through tourneys, yes maybe you should not invite him in the first place. but no such idiot exists in the current scene. so "sponsors don't feel like funding tourneys because players tend to be irresponsible" should not even be a notion, organizers should actually be proud that the playerbase we had is mostly responsible
TLDR players are not perfect but in general they are smarter and more responsible than you think
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote: I think you misunderstand. No one has "blamed" the players here. Blame would mean sort of moral or causal responsibility. The worst that might be said about the players is that they possibly have inaccurate views about what might best serve them.
you are blaming the players for not fulfilling/attending tourneys because 1) they are shortsighted (not seeing rewards) 2) flakiness
when actually 1) they do attend almost the tournaments, basically discussing a non-issue 2) you are not the player, don't put words in their mouths that they are do not think about long term aspects of the issue when many may do. They may look goofy and idiotic on stream at times but its all an act and they DO know what they are doing.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote: If you think that making the factual statement that sometimes players do not honor tournament commitments is bashing, then I guess we will have to disagree. In fact, I went very far to give a calculated justification of why the players might believe that the rewards are too small. You might have interpreted that as me trying to say that they are greedy. That is not what I intended at all. I was actually trying to say that they might be acting rationally but with incorrect information. That is what's meant by "short-sighted". That is not an attack on their moral character.
i think you were bashing in the first post simply because you are giving justifications (even with mathematical calculations) for effort skipping out on 41sl, insinuating that he skips out on it simply because he thinks its not worth the money when in fact he left because of a legit reason (since you did not state the actual reason i assumed you are ignorant about it until i mentioned it). your post suggests that the bulk of them leaves because no $ rather than legit reasons, which you should not wantonly imply without actual proof.
On April 10 2016 16:27 lemmata wrote: Also, even when there are good reasons and no one is "at fault", it does not change the fact that situations like that are difficult for organizers. It could possibly reduce the legitimacy of the event or cause loss of credibility. "Just getting a replacement" is not a simple deal. Those willing to put up a nontrivial amount of money to sponsor an event care about this stuff. Again, the fact that organizers might face difficulties is not an attack on the players at all. That's just an unfortunate consequence.
like i said non-attendance seems to be very uncommon anyway and is usually restricted to a few cases at most per tourney, if not hardly ever. If effort leaves 41sl because he has a legit reason, why would this cause 41sl to lose credibility or legitimacy?? when sponsors fund a tourney they should be prepared for anything and have trust that the organizers have put in contingencies in case of unfortunate absences/incidents (walkovers/replacements/whatever). usually this kind of stuff happens in the early rounds which the organizers should have been ready for. yes they care but it should not be a big issue at all. as an avid viewer i can clearly see it isn't a really big issue too, i've seen replacements in ro32 of some random tourneys, the organizers deal with it well.
if there was an idiot that constantly leaves halfway through tourneys, yes maybe you should not invite him in the first place. but no such idiot exists in the current scene. so "sponsors don't feel like funding tourneys because players tend to be irresponsible" should not even be a notion, organizers should actually be proud that the playerbase we had is mostly responsible
TLDR players are not perfect but in general they are smarter and more responsible than you think
Since when are $ not legitimate reasons? Do we not live in a capitalist society? I personally think that, with the difficult situation that many players face, they *should* choose actions that give them more $s. Maybe that's why you think that I am bashing. I think that they should choose options with more $s. You seem to think that I am saying that it's bad that they choose $s, but that's not the case at all. Again: I want them to take the $$$ options. It's just that I think that they are mistaken about how to get more more $s in the long run. Hence the "short-sighted" comment. I am sad because I think they could make more money not because I think they're greedy. I wish they would be *more* greedy in that sense!
EffOrt skipping the 41 Ranking Tournament to visit the Afreeca studio is fine. He was likely paid more $s for that and it strengthens his business relationship with Afreeca, which is a much bigger entity than 41. He obviously also participated in Afreeca related events that week, too. I just wish he had planned his week a bit better since he would have had some advance notice. By the way, EffOrt also had a walkover loss in 41 League Season 4. The reason then was that he was late in getting to Terror's house to participate in the shaving of Bisu's eyebrows. I don't think EffOrt is greedy for doing that, I think he should take Terror's $s. I do wish that he had planned his trip better. Movie also had a walkover loss in the 41 Ranking Tournament because he started a balloon match close to the start time and it just went on too long. Again, I think Movie should play all the balloon matches he can. I just wish he had planned his day better. I don't know if 41 is snake-bitten, but there was also a previous smaller 41 event in which Tyson went missing for 24 hours and left everyone scrambling because no walkover loss policy was in effect back then.
There's a ton of stuff like this that you don't ever hear about. For small-time organizers with a very tight budget, mid-league drop-outs are stressful even if they are "infrequent" occurrences, especially if it's a player who draws interest. The organizers don't blame the players, but they do think about how to make their events more attractive to the players.
If you still think that is bashing, let's just forget about it, at least in this thread. I don't want to derail this thread with a debate that we should really take offline over a glass of beer. In retrospect, I should have not been "short-sighted" myself by bringing up a potentially sensitive issue in a conversation about something completely different.
EDIT: Just in case there is any confusion, all of my posts reflect my opinion and my opinion only. KCM thinks that he has a responsibility as an elder statesman of BW to help create a self-sustaining economy and take care of everything else so that the players can concentrate only on playing at the highest level possible. That's why he gives players win streak prizes out of his own pocket even when the crowdfunding does not include that. One time, a Korean donor pulled out at the last minute, leaving a large hole in the prize pool where there was expected to be none. He paid the players out of his own pocket that time, too. The man is a saint compared to me (or most people for that matter). His fans regularly beg him not to do that, but he insists.
^^Thanks for sharing these tidbits, lemmata it's really heartwarming to hear KCM, among others, has been sustaining this grass roots effort out of his own pockets. I can't imagine how big a blow Sonic/SBENU's situation has been to the scene and its reputation, so I feel beyond fortunate to have entities like KCM, Kim Carry, Kongdoo, etc., albeit not together, working towards staging competitions and securing sponsorship.
Very much agree the players should plan better if they've previously committed to days/times of play, or at the very least, notify the organizer in advance to arrange an alternate time so the audience does't get, effectively, punished with missing players, while making the organizer look bad...
I would like to thank BisuDagger for agreeing to do English casts of KLMs starting on April 28! He very generously agreed to upload those casts to my YouTube channel as well. Thank you so much!
I also tried to find out what this long conversation was about, but it was too hard for me to understand even with translations. However, I was glad to hear that you are sympathetic to the situations faced by many players. I feel that way, too!
I am very proud to say that many players find the KCM Legend Match very attractive as an event because we do our best to make them feel comfortable and make it worthwhile for them.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
On April 12 2016 12:40 kimcheolmin wrote: Hello everyone!
I would like to thank BisuDagger for agreeing to do English casts of KLMs starting on April 28! He very generously agreed to upload those casts to my YouTube channel as well. Thank you so much!
I also tried to find out what this long conversation was about, but it was too hard for me to understand even with translations. However, I was glad to hear that you are sympathetic to the situations faced by many players. I feel that way, too!
I am very proud to say that many players find the KCM Legend Match very attractive as an event because we do our best to make them feel comfortable and make it worthwhile for them.
Note from lemmata: KCM read this thread with my English-to-Korean translation and asked me to post some replies from his account with my Korean-to-English translations of his responses. He apologizes if there are long delays between your posts and his replies. I am in a different time zone from KCM and have a fairly demanding job, so it's hard for us to coordinate.
On May 02 2016 01:46 mauwee wrote: Will there be an English rebroadcast of this shit?
Please be kind. If you can't be polite, don't say it at all
Huh? Pretty sure he isn't suggesting that the matches are in any way shit/bad/crappy. Just a colloquial use of the word there that is frequently used in place of stuff/thing/event/etc. Nothing impolite there.
Just contributed $10. I don't I'll be able to watch it live, so hopefully someone posts the VOD here, but helping fund Flash playing on this is a worthy cause. I just wish there was a way to get FanTaSy to play T_T
One can only dream of a BW return to the main stage, but I wish you all the best nonetheless!
On May 03 2016 03:39 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: Just contributed $10. I don't I'll be able to watch it live, so hopefully someone posts the VOD here, but helping fund Flash playing on this is a worthy cause. I just wish there was a way to get FanTaSy to play T_T
One can only dream of a BW return to the main stage, but I wish you all the best nonetheless!
You rock. I just contributed $100 myself. 3 days left to reach the goal everyone!
On May 03 2016 03:39 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: Just contributed $10. I don't I'll be able to watch it live, so hopefully someone posts the VOD here, but helping fund Flash playing on this is a worthy cause. I just wish there was a way to get FanTaSy to play T_T
One can only dream of a BW return to the main stage, but I wish you all the best nonetheless!
I will after breakfast. They just uploaded the english vods by BD and xkcd.
What's it going to take to reach this goal? I'll stream myself doing anything short of shaving eyebrows/dyeing hair since I work in a professional work place. I'll go terror level and do every suggestion (from donators) from this point on that I can possibly do.
Thank you so much for all the donations, everyone! I am overwhelmed by the passion of the foreign BW community. There is a saying on the Korean Internets that roughly translates to "Foreign aficionados are the most devoted aficionados" or something like that. Usually, such sayings are accompanied an image of a foreign fan of a particular interest or franchise doing something that requires a crazy amount of devotion and attention to detail. For example:
I can honestly say that the foreign BW community has flexed its muscle in a similar manner. Despite being smaller than the Korean BW community, you guys have made your impact felt through this campaign!
As the campaign nears its end, I do not want to pressure any of you to donate large sums. You have already given a lot. However, I would like to point out that one person donating even one dollar helps us! It might be the case that 100 one-dollar donors will have just as much impact as a single thousand-dollar donor. Please do not be shy about small donations!
The number of donors is an important figure that we will be able to tout as a sign of interest in BW. If you cannot donate, sharing information about the campaign on social media is another way to help us. Your passion does not need to take the form of money!
Thank you again!
Note: Hat tip to lemmata, who translated this message for me.
Sent over $10, not that much but a bit at least. As mentioned in the thread, even small donations would be helpful for sponsorships. Expected a bit more than 55 people when I checked it out.
On May 06 2016 02:31 Yurie wrote: Sent over $10, not that much but a bit at least. As mentioned in the thread, even small donations would be helpful for sponsorships. Expected a bit more than 55 people when I checked it out.
Agreed, Flash Returns thread received 14705 views and imagine if most people just put in a dollar.
On May 06 2016 02:31 Yurie wrote: Sent over $10, not that much but a bit at least. As mentioned in the thread, even small donations would be helpful for sponsorships. Expected a bit more than 55 people when I checked it out.
Agreed, Flash Returns thread received 14705 views and imagine if most people just put in a dollar.
The fun part is that he was the only one that did not get to play when the whole advertisement was for him. Hopefully we see him next week.
Ok, so yesterday I submitted my humble $10 so now we have: $1,531 USD raised by 63 backers which is less than $2000 but still is very nice to see ppl getting involved.
On May 07 2016 02:00 letian wrote: Ok, so yesterday I submitted my humble $10 so now we have: $1,531 USD raised by 63 backers which is less than $2000 but still is very nice to see ppl getting involved.
We raise $600 and nearly 50 donations in the last 24hrs! I think that's great. I should have helped promote this more sooner, because I think we could have hit the mark. But hopefully KCM can see what we are capable of in just a short period. Thank you everyone who helped contribute!
We came pretty close to reaching our goal! We raised enough money to fund at least one more KLM.
I cannot thank you enough for participating in this fundraising effort.
More so than the dollars, I am very touched that 63 people backed this campaign. That is a lot of people. You guys are the best.
I also would like to give special thanks to BisuDagger for his promotion of the fundraising campaign as well as the great English casting work. Korean YouTube viewers say that your voice (...well it could be XKCD's voice...) is sexy. His efforts over the last few weeks had a huge impact on fundraising.
Finally, I would like to apologize for Flash appearing but not playing last week. I was just like you. I really wanted to see Flash play. Flash was on the Terran team but Last has been Flash-like of late and did not give Flash a chance to take the field. However, Flash will be back this week. You will get to see the God of BW play in future KLMs. Hopefully, the Terran team will place him earlier in the lineup!
hat tip to lemmata for translating this message.
lemmata's note: Sorry for not posting earlier. I was traveling out of town for work.
On May 10 2016 03:58 TaShadan wrote: Damn i missed that one... is it still possible to donate?
I requested a paypal donation link. If there isn't one, anyone who donates to my paypal will have their money redirected to KCM/invested back into BW. I actually donated my money earned from casting the Vant Starleague to this lol.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WBpXgg1.jpg)
Sziky or ![[image loading]](http://stimg.afreecatv.com/STATION/4/14201664/%C0%AF%C6%A9%BA%EA.jpg)
also "redact" has quit streaming and stopped playing. Unsavory things has also happened in other esports like LoL but i don't see people quit playing LoL in korea anytime soon. 
![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-hidden/1-koreans/boxer1.png)
I need to clear the fundraising game at the "Beginner Difficulty" level before I can try harder levels.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hkKqwOy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PTAAgFb.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KCuzcNI.jpg)
