EPTTraining vs cpu?
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gero00
16 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On February 22 2016 01:27 _Animus_ wrote: training vs cpu is effective on a different levels, try play standart maps 1v1 vs cpu, that way without pressure u will be able to learn maps, hotkeys and get grasp of the game. If u want to learn and perfect build orders vs pc is also great to practice. After 1v1 vs cpu is really easy for u u can practice 1v2 and/or go multiplayer. Gameranger client supports bw and there are mostly low level players but also low in numbers. Iccup is the main server, but there u should put Noob to your games or u wil get raped many times before u start win. you will probably lose games really badly but you will for sure not get raped | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
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Highgamer
1444 Posts
You can practice everything against the PC that only concerns your part of the game like build-orders, macro, basic micro/unit movement or to get to know a map - while still feeling a little pressure from an opponent that you have to look out for, scout for. To practice that stuff, you could also just throw the PC out of the game quickly during the countdown (if you are logged into Iccup/Bnet). Defenitely try to play some games without any opponent where you completely concentrate on your buildorder and macro. You will see that even then you will play far from perfectly. In the beginning you can play a few dozens of games or so vs the PC until you have learned your build-order well and are familiar with your hotkeys even when under pressure of an "opponent". But there is no point in playing perfectly against the PC in terms of strategy and tactics because a real opponent is something completely different in this field. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
It learns you bad habits. More than half the game is player-player interaction/mind games/psychology. The ai just does stupid stuff following a nonsensical script. You learn 0 from the ai on how to play vs an actual player. If you want to check build order timings, you don't play vs the ai either. The ai just gets in the way, like zealot rushing vs a wallin. | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
The problem with cpu is that it's really dumb. It undertakes couple of rushes, and then sends like 1 scout per minute to attack you, and that's it. | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
In terms of game modes, honestly I'd just do 1v1. I personally can do 1v7 (as any race on BGH), but it's really besides the point. The only reason to do this is to practice macro, not micro/strategy. Playing against more computers just means you have to be more defensive. | ||
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Scarbo
294 Posts
http://depositfiles.com/files/i2c661m04 | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Once upon a time lots of people made maps that you could practice on your own to help improve specific mechanics. Someone might upload a few for you. They are things like multitasking or micro. But all the best fun of SC is playing against humans. Even if it's a micro practice map, it's better to play with somebody. Otherwise it feels like you're wasting time playing by yourself. I think you want someone you can play at any time at your own convenience, which is not so easy with people. It used to be very easy just to hop on bnet and find other newbies in a chat room to have games with. Very easy to find those D or below level players every time you sign on. I'm sorry for you to find BW only in this latter age :O Those days were the most fun I had with BW. If you can open your ports and host games, it's not too hard to find human players on iccup. But hard to make friendships, since people just join and play one game (which is always how ladder has been, at least at low levels). But long story short, play vs computer as long as it's a challenge for you. Pretty much everyone does that, and it's fun enough especially if you play with friends vs multiple computers. At some point it will be too easy though, and after it's too easy it makes you worse at StarCraft to keep playing vs them because it makes you lazy. | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
Some of them decent and really hard. Maybe this won't help you with strategies but help a lot with macro/micro abilites because enemy gonna swarm you up pretty bad. After that you can go to Battle.net East/West (or even Asia which is a little bit harder and alive) and play billion games of BGH, LT or w/e you want if you can host. All players there are D-/D/D+ level, no high skillers but just playing for fun. When you feel you are ready after practice, maybe a month or so you can quickly start wining games on iCCup or even Fish. Don't give up pal. | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States347 Posts
You could also train your micro, say Muta or reaver harass, by playing a cpu, saving the game when they don't rush and you have all the required tech/units up, and seeing how efficient you can be with your harass. This way you can reload the game and not have to go through building everything again to practice your micro. The method above is waaaaaaaaaay more important than micro practice though. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
Use map settings for specific actions is also something completely different. Also, to practice muta micro for 4 hours for the next 4 years, is that really the training method the OP needs? Also, why still practice for BW? The game is over. Just play to have fun and revel in how bad you are. And no, Nony didn't get good by practicing his timings in empty maps. User was temp banned for this post and other posts in this thread and also bad post history. | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States347 Posts
idrA wrote: nony became one of the best foreigners by doing nothing but choosing good builds and newb bashing 24/7 on iccup, just by focusing hardcore on executing perfectly. so yes, if you have the ability to force yourself to play a standard game and push yourself to keep your mechanics as perfect as possible regardless of your opponent, yes you can improve by playing vs computers(assuming you study good players and learn good builds to practice). I remember specifically that he played against computers too to practice mechanics, but can't find the reference. Day9 did the same thing and even did a daily about it: As to why train instead of "just playing for fun"- to some people, getting better is the fun. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On February 22 2016 09:12 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Also, to practice muta micro for 4 hours for the next 4 years, is that really the training method the OP needs? Also, why still practice for BW? The game is over. Just play to have fun and revel in how bad you are. And no, Nony didn't get good by practicing his timings in empty maps. If you got nothing to offer please don't ever come here with your bullshit. All two posts of yours are bunch of negativity. Game is over? Are you SC2 fanboy or what? Open your eyes! I'm sure I won't accept this type of stupid statement even after 10 or 20 years, especially when it's alive now. + Show Spoiler + I found more about you: All posts you answer are dumb, annoying and trollish. Also you dissing all servers, because they suck = don't play BW. Let me give an exp: CD Key Disabled from Bnet. On January 30 2016 04:45 Bolshevik- wrote: Q: I'v recently tried to install ICCUP and when I did so my CD key was disabled. Now when I try logging into US East coast or any other multiplayer server it gives the following error message: "The CD key you installed with has been disabled. Please contact Blizzard entertainment for technical support." Obviously blizzard will ignore any complain from the BW community but does anybody here have any suggestions as to what this problem might be? On February 07 2016 00:26 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Just don't log on to battle.net. Q: Why do people HATE Brood War when they first join? /skip/ On December 19 2015 09:30 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: SC2 people naturally hate BW. Posts like this are just stupid. Can people never understand the weaknesses of iccup? Iccup rank is about scoring points, not about skill. Half an iccup rank is about how many plays you and everyone else is playing and about how much rank inflation is going on. If you want somethihng skill based, there's a challenge in programming an algorithm that can guess the skill of a player the quickest. There's some good systems out there, like Trueskill or Glicko. So I repeat don't come ever to BW section again and chill out on your politics section. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
1. Practice versus the PC. In the beginning, just put on power overwhelming and place a unit somewhere outside of you base. Any rushes will get dealt with this way and you can focus solely on mechanics and your build order! 2. Once your mechanics get better, you can play against the PC without power overwhelming. If you play versus protoss for example, it is great practice to use a unit (in my case a zergling) to attack them and keep them occupied until your defenses are ready as is the case in a normal game. This will really boost your multi-tasking abilities. 3. Get a proper set-up from the start. Use every option there is to increase your effective APM including F2/F3/F4 keys, control C to focus on selected units, have dynamic hotkeys to avoid having to scroll your screen too much,... 4. Stick to one game plan in the beginning. Choose one strategy for each matchup. 5. Watch Pro streams to learn build orders, how to micro/macro, how to react in certain situations,... 6. Watch your own replays both from games you lost but also from games you won! Then try to identify why you lost and why you won! 7. Find some people to play practice games (Check out the teamliquid practice partner thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/427026-practice-partners-official). 8. Start on ICCup and make sure you can host games! The first 4 months or more I couldn't host my own games and it was quite frustrating at times to get a game going... It's been a breeze ever since I can host myself 9. Cool down when you have to. If you're getting angry or frustrated, do something else for a while or play some custom games. If you happen to chose the most exciting and skillful race :D, I'm always willing to help a fellow brood of the zerg. Long live the swarm! | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On February 22 2016 11:31 outscar wrote: If you got nothing to offer please don't ever come here with your bullshit. All two posts of yours are bunch of negativity. Game is over? Are you SC2 fanboy or what? Open your eyes! I'm sure I won't accept this type of stupid statement even after 10 or 20 years, especially when it's alive now. + Show Spoiler + I found more about you: All posts you answer are dumb, annoying and trollish. Also you dissing all servers, because they suck = don't play BW. Let me give an exp: CD Key Disabled from Bnet. On January 30 2016 04:45 Bolshevik- wrote: Q: I'v recently tried to install ICCUP and when I did so my CD key was disabled. Now when I try logging into US East coast or any other multiplayer server it gives the following error message: "The CD key you installed with has been disabled. Please contact Blizzard entertainment for technical support." Obviously blizzard will ignore any complain from the BW community but does anybody here have any suggestions as to what this problem might be? On February 07 2016 00:26 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Just don't log on to battle.net. Q: Why do people HATE Brood War when they first join? /skip/ On December 19 2015 09:30 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: SC2 people naturally hate BW. Posts like this are just stupid. Can people never understand the weaknesses of iccup? Iccup rank is about scoring points, not about skill. Half an iccup rank is about how many plays you and everyone else is playing and about how much rank inflation is going on. If you want somethihng skill based, there's a challenge in programming an algorithm that can guess the skill of a player the quickest. There's some good systems out there, like Trueskill or Glicko. So I repeat don't come ever to BW section again and chill out on your politics section. I was playing BW when you weren't even born. Yeah, don't log into bnet. Go to iccup. And yes, there's no point in practicing. Just play for fun. lol at Idra bashing Nony being used as an argument. I never said it wasn't how he practiced. I said that's not why he was good. | ||
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shaggles
Poland108 Posts
1) As it was mentioned above, AI hardly represents an opponent, doing basically the same nonsensical stuff all over again. There is no reason to probe AI, if your goal is to get good at gameplay. After dozen of games you will know exactly what to expect: two timing pushes (one, if your "opponent" is protoss), then expanding into undefendable locations and harassing with single units. Then AI usually stuck at 140 supply, ready to get killed in its well defended base. Its only plan is to get you infinitely supply-blocked by air harrass. 2) There is hardly a reason to do sneaky things vs CPU. It sees you all the time.Will happily rush your hidden expansion, even on the opposite side of the map. 3) There is hardly a reason to learn breaking defences vs CPU. All the defences are scattered semi-randomly over the base.If CPU is Z, expect lurkers...furthest from the base entrance. 4) There is no reason to practice build orders vs CPU. Build orders are tailored to give you an edge over opponent following certain game plan. Like Z plays 5(6) hatch hydra in response to P FFE. AI Toss plays 2 Gate 90% of the time (with the remaining 10% shared between actual FFE and make-zillion-cannons-in-the-main-something. Perfectly following Zerg build makes you get slaughtered 9/10 times. The only exception to that is 3hatch muta vs T. Hovewer this is only due to 2-rax timing Terran CPU does all the time, that matches the Z build. 5) There is no reason to practice micro vs CPU. It has 6666 APM and its own plans. Like killing your drones if you try to push zealots from sunken. Or unburrowing lurker to chase single ling (and dying to it), if attacked. 6) There is no scalability about AI. It always play with the same strength. This gets you frustrated at first vs single AI, then couple of hundreds games later, gets you frustrated vs 2 AI ("why didn't it learn, I do lurkers all the time...") Vs 3 or more AI it teaches you "how to overinvest in defences", and still is kill-able on most maps, provided, you had enough resources. From the other hand, playing vs CPU gives you one thing that is difficult to obtain vs human: it lets you practice the same stuff all over again. Its not like you enter ICCUP game vs Terran, get bunker rushed, think it over, enter the game vs Terran, get 2-ported, prepare anti-wraith plan, enter third game, fall to mass Goliaths, to just face Protoss in the 4th game. What to practice then? A) On an empty map (computer opponent slot closed while countdown) you can learn build orders. You can get your timings right, macro buildings in place and so on. The obvious advantage is that nobody is distracting you. The obvious drawback is also, that nobody is distracting you. The point is that executing build order in actual game rarely resembles what you have been practising. This annoying probe is stealing your gas again, pair of happylots is chasing your poor drone, and your scourge gets killed in the enemy's main, since you have forgotten about it. And oh, and since you were late already, you should have make these hydras a round earlier, and not only after supply of 45, gg. Practising on empty map lets you memorize the build order steps - and nothing more. Again, the scalability is lacking. I would then like to see an UMS that harasses you while you execute build order on standard map. It would make much more sense. B) UMS maps. These are primarily devoted to improve player's micro. Anyone here could probably recommend one (like muta vs scourge, defiler control, or various some units vs some units UMS). The main goal of these UMS is to let the player understand behavior of unit AI and adjust gameplay to get and advantage vs non-microed units. Again, the problem here is scalability. UMS maps are developed for certain level of play and let you play (for example) 8 lings vs 3 zealots. That may be intimidating for beginners, while expert could probably outmicro 3 zealots with 7 or perhaps even 6 lings. The only tool at my disposal is however to alter game speed, which lead to bad habits. Obviously lot of micro' is timing based and learning vulture patrol micro at "normal" (or "faster") gives you false rythm. Again I would like to see UMS, where parameters of enemy (count, speed and so on) could be altered. C) Playing vs CPU. So why - you may ask - play vs CPU? Why waste your precious time vs bullshit opponent? I got three answers to that: C1) Playing vs CPU helps your mechanics. BW is mechanically very demanding game. You have to use these keys without looking, move that units, regroup, and sometimes (not necesarilly) attack something. Everything requires keypressing and accurate clicking. This can be done vs CPU, and should be practiced until you don't distract your own game with "how do i do this..." Since computer is a weak opponent, you can as well enter the game with mindset "I will be plaguing every archon I see", and though that makes no sense from the operational point of view, eventually gets you finding that "G" key (and then "C" key for reloading defiler). The advantage of this (vs UMS) is, you do this in game, on certain map, and, while macroing. There are only couple of UMS that focus on multitasking, and unfortunately these share the other UMS disadvantage - that is scalability again. C2) Playing vs CPU improves your macro. CPU is obviously not a tough opponent, but thats what you need - 4 - 6 expansions over the map to macro from. Try not to have anything idle. C3) Playing vs CPU improves your map control. As i said, computer places its stuff in nonsensical locations. Your task is to always know, where it is. With zerg you should not use burrow. I can also add here, that AI behaves differently depending on the map. Some good maps for AI include Gladiator and Circuit Breaker, while it misses the road on (say) Electric Circuit or Jade, and so on. There is also small fourth reason to play vs CPU. I just don't like to "drop in into ICCUP for a game or two and then get back to work". I like to play a couple of consecutive days, for a minimum of (say) 3 hours at least. But what if i don't have that much time? I just play vs CPU to keep my fingers in shape. My usual practice is actually play vs 2 CPU, and kill them while maxed out with all upgrades done. I also try to keep my APM as high as possible, and mineral count as low as possible. I try not to lock CPU's in main locations to provide more map awareness practice. I also try to keep a group or two of lings in the constant movement. TLDR:If you are into mechanics and have no time, computer AI is reasonable choice. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1479 Posts
1. You will be able to practice builds and randomly get rushed so you will have to learn how to react in that situation very early on. 2. You will not loose what I call "the feel for the game". This means getting used to the bugs and help you avoid them (mostly unit pathing). Apart from the negatives mentioned, CPUs dont have any lag, so you will be effectivly trainiing with lan latency. This might be bad if you then play few multiplayer games and get to the point where you expect your units to react faster than they will. One thing that DOES help a LOT in practice vs a CPU, is to use a scouting scv/drone/probe to harras the CPU probes and stay running around their base while you are pulling off your build. As soon as the Scouting unit dies, you restart the game. This will effectivly make you multitask CONSTANTLY, to the point where it becomes a habit (I actually used this to train some of my friends, with specific rules on what they had to do). EDIT: there was actually a mpa designed for multitasking that required you to play TvZ vs a CPU, and at the same time evacuate civilians with a dropship from an island AND run away with a probe from a zealot on a small island. That map is so effective in multitasking, taht if you can consistantly pull it off, very few players will be able to keep up with your multitasking (and i really mean very few). Bare in mind thou, that time you spend on practicing that is time you are NOT spending learning other skills, so it should be a % of your practice, like 20-30% tops. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
I also recall going to http://www.entropyzero.org/BroodwarAI.html and trying that, but if I don't recall if they were any better than regular AI. Still seemed rather bad I think. It might be easier to use those AIs though. | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States347 Posts
On February 23 2016 02:36 iloveav wrote: Apart from the negatives mentioned, CPUs dont have any lag, so you will be effectivly trainiing with lan latency. This might be bad if you then play few multiplayer games and get to the point where you expect your units to react faster than they will. Yeah I forgot to mention this. Single player has different latency than LAN. If you are playing vs a computer- you should select "Local Area Network (UDP)" from the multiplayer menu so your practice is basically the same thing as ICCUP lan latency. | ||
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gero00
16 Posts
 Of course I have read your suggestion to ask in simple question thread, and I will try to search a thread next time, but it turns out to be more of a simple answer thread at least, doesn't it. On February 22 2016 05:55 Scarbo wrote: I uploaded some build order maps here. They don't have opponents so you can test stuff without being bothered. http://depositfiles.com/files/i2c661m04 Thanks, btw I have also read one of your other help threads ( remember your name ;o), very useful (I didn't reply there) By the way: I have also read the other useful vs AI comments and your experiences, I appreciate it. thanks | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5522 Posts
On February 22 2016 14:48 B-royal wrote: 3. Get a proper set-up from the start. Use every option there is to increase your effective APM including F2/F3/F4 keys, control C to focus on selected units, have dynamic hotkeys to avoid having to scroll your screen too much,... Annnnnnd after 11 years of playing I have learned Ctrl-C. Amazing. | ||
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Scarbo
294 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:09 jimminy_kriket wrote: Annnnnnd after 11 years of playing I have learned Ctrl-C. Amazing. There's a lot more to it. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
On February 24 2016 03:56 gero00 wrote: Maybe I will try custom AI later. Aside from joining a special server, what training maps from websites download can you recommend? At the moment I try finding stuff myself with web search engines, but that + testing takes time and it often links me to Sc2... I am happy I found teamliquid website, at least Of course I have read your suggestion to ask in simple question thread, and I will try to search a thread next time, but it turns out to be more of a simple answer thread at least, doesn't it. Thanks, btw I have also read one of your other help threads ( remember your name ;o), very useful (I didn't reply there) I have some BW training maps I found in various places. You can download the pack here: http://www.filedropper.com/trainingmaps | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
idrA wrote: nony became one of the best foreigners by doing nothing but choosing good builds and newb bashing 24/7 on iccup, just by focusing hardcore on executing perfectly. so yes, if you have the ability to force yourself to play a standard game and push yourself to keep your mechanics as perfect as possible regardless of your opponent, yes you can improve by playing vs computers(assuming you study good players and learn good builds to practice). yup this is pretty much perfectly true. but my use of the practice technique doesn't really apply to a new player. once i was already pretty good, like at least in the conversation of good foreigners, i worked on getting my mechanics better or at least equal to everyone else, and then would spend a lot of time figuring out exact builds (working on them vs AI was helpful for that). but i think for a new player, it wouldn't hurt to spend a little time vs AI to memorize his standard builds. after that, i think it might be a long time of gathering experience and knowledge before it's worth it to return to the technique And no, Nony didn't get good by practicing his timings in empty maps. It's how I went from a good foreigner to one of the best of my time. Every tournament where I got a good result involved the use of this practice technique for some key victories. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
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shakigami
220 Posts
On February 22 2016 07:24 outscar wrote: Default Blizzard AI sucks, even average D+ players from iCCup can go and kill 3 opponents on normal map. Check out this custom AI's http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/46293-bw-ai-project-gosu-update Some of them decent and really hard. Maybe this won't help you with strategies but help a lot with macro/micro abilites because enemy gonna swarm you up pretty bad. After that you can go to Battle.net East/West (or even Asia which is a little bit harder and alive) and play billion games of BGH, LT or w/e you want if you can host. All players there are D-/D/D+ level, no high skillers but just playing for fun. When you feel you are ready after practice, maybe a month or so you can quickly start wining games on iCCup or even Fish. Don't give up pal. this thread linked to an outdated page without download link  can you reupload it? | ||
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gero00
16 Posts
clicking sends me to the website without /trainingmaps, so there's nothing. | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
On February 28 2016 03:53 gero00 wrote: clicking sends me to the website without /trainingmaps, so there's nothing. Try this one: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=35833298105011126665 | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On February 26 2016 11:28 shakigami wrote: this thread linked to an outdated page without download link can you reupload it?Who no link? There is a link at start, I copy/pasted: http://www.entropyzero.org/BWAI.rar Extract archive and follow instructions, it's really simple program. Also, if you read end of that page there are some other types of this, if you wanna try: On August 30 2015 02:44 toriak wrote: if u just wanna play different AIs, try this: http://sc.nibbits.com/assets/bwai-launcher/ On September 03 2015 11:53 Equalizer wrote: Below is access to version 1.3 of the launcher. I created the Accel T terran script a long time ago now. There use to be a number of us that would create scripts mostly to have them fight each other. (Their micro control is still the same as the Blizzard AI so other than being some what better at macro than the Blizzard AI they can still be exploited by a human player. If you don't use any exploits they can put up somewhat of a fight.) The website/forum where these AIs and other mods for SC:BW use to be is defunct (http://www.broodwarai.com/). BWAILauncher.zip (version 1.3) on google drive. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1caHHJaeFBkdnY4RlFFQzhEVDA/view?usp=sharing | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On February 22 2016 01:11 gero00 wrote: It's effective in a mechanical sense. If you watch vods and get a decent understanding of how the dynamics of a match up ought to work--which obviously the ai will not reflect in game-- you can use the ai simply to train your hands to move faster, hit all the timings for common builds and things like that. When I was a much worse player I used to use some more advanced ai scripts while trying to force myself to keep a minimum apm and holding myself to a certain 'bank' threshold. Like, keep my apm up to 100 and never go over 500 min/500 gas. It can only take you so far obviously but it shouldnt be undervalued. Hello, i'm "new" to this game and I wondered if training vs CPU is effective? what game mode can you recommend, 1v1, 1v2, 1v3 etc, a special map? to become a little better | ||
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