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TLADT24920 Posts
On January 22 2014 16:38 ArvickHero wrote:
??????? many of the builds used today are very different in many ways from 2009-10, and latemech wasn't even popular until 2011, well after FS was out of circulation. FS's map structure makes it incredibly easy for good latemech players to split the map to their favor
really? that's not that far back, interesting. Always thought late mech switching happened back in 2010 at least if not earlier, guess not lol
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On January 22 2014 16:38 ArvickHero wrote:
??????? many of the builds used today are very different in many ways from 2009-10, and latemech wasn't even popular until 2011, well after FS was out of circulation. FS's map structure makes it incredibly easy for good latemech players to split the map to their favor
Hmm... Interesting. Although I would still argue that if the 2009/10 Terrans were to play their style on FS versus today's zergs they'd still rape them hard. I'm basically trying to say that there's A LOT of room for improvement in today's play. Even at the end of Brood War the best players made mistakes and could still improve.
Basically I'm trying to say that if somebody really starts dominating right now maps and meta won't stop him regardless of race.
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On January 22 2014 17:25 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 16:38 ArvickHero wrote:
??????? many of the builds used today are very different in many ways from 2009-10, and latemech wasn't even popular until 2011, well after FS was out of circulation. FS's map structure makes it incredibly easy for good latemech players to split the map to their favor really? that's not that far back, interesting. Always thought late mech switching happened back in 2010 at least if not earlier, guess not lol
And you're right, late full-mech-switch was seen f.e. in Fantasy vs Zero in 2010, Sea vs Jaedong (also 2010) and many more, but it became a standard mindset in 2011.
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10387 Posts
players began experimenting w/ latemech around 2010, but wasn't very effective until 2011.
are we trying to compare 2009/10 progamer Terrans to today's expro/amateur Zergs, because that would be such an unfair/stupid comparison. Better to just compare them to the average 2012 progamer Zerg, who by then were so good at defending against bio that even Light (who was one of the last bastions of lategame TvZ bio) had to switch over to latemech.
but that's really beside my point, which is that FS is imba (despite what some people say) especially in regards to latemech, and FS's problems relating to latemech carries over to many other maps that derive their structural elements from FS. We don't really need a patch to combat it, just new maps. Case in point: optimization of PvZ timing attacks led to a massive swing in balance towards Protoss in around 2009, until Zergs figured out how to simcity. As a result, maps from that point on were designed with simcitying in mind, for balance.
Yea skill can transcend map balance, but you can't just go "hey any Protoss can beat any Zerg on Tears of the Moon all the time if they're skilled enough" or "oh well its ok if Zerg can't simcity on this map, he can still win if he's better". These things matter.
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On January 22 2014 18:19 ArvickHero wrote:
players began experimenting w/ latemech around 2010, but wasn't very effective until 2011.
are we trying to compare 2009/10 progamer Terrans to today's expro/amateur Zergs, because that would be such an unfair/stupid comparison. Better to just compare them to the average 2012 progamer Zerg, who by then were so good at defending against bio that even Light (who was one of the last bastions of lategame TvZ bio) had to switch over to latemech.
but that's really beside my point, which is that FS is imba (despite what some people say) especially in regards to latemech, and FS's problems relating to latemech carries over to many other maps that derive their structural elements from FS. We don't really need a patch to combat it, just new maps. Case in point: optimization of PvZ timing attacks led to a massive swing in balance towards Protoss in around 2009, until Zergs figured out how to simcity. As a result, maps from that point on were designed with simcitying in mind, for balance.
Yea skill can transcend map balance, but you can't just go "hey any Protoss can beat any Zerg on Tears of the Moon all the time if they're skilled enough" or "oh well its ok if Zerg can't simcity on this map, he can still win if he's better". These things matter.
I feel like even better Protoss players cant beat Zergs because of sim city most of the time.
Its almost impossible to do anything against it. Just like I feel like on FS for sure Swarm makes it practically impossible to attack as T, unless you kill them with 5/6 rax aggression builds
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On January 22 2014 18:19 ArvickHero wrote:
players began experimenting w/ latemech around 2010, but wasn't very effective until 2011.
It was effective enouth to cause a massive balance whining from Zerg players, lol. (not that Zerg players hadnt whine earier, flash pushes, fantasy build and leta wright style also brouth a massive amount of whining, but its really difficult to find more nerdzerg-rage thread than the one from MSL game 1 - Jeadong vs Sea )
Speeking of balance...many of suggestions here are straith awfull...
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On January 22 2014 18:19 ArvickHero wrote:
players began experimenting w/ latemech around 2010, but wasn't very effective until 2011.
are we trying to compare 2009/10 progamer Terrans to today's expro/amateur Zergs, because that would be such an unfair/stupid comparison. Better to just compare them to the average 2012 progamer Zerg, who by then were so good at defending against bio that even Light (who was one of the last bastions of lategame TvZ bio) had to switch over to latemech.
but that's really beside my point, which is that FS is imba (despite what some people say) especially in regards to latemech, and FS's problems relating to latemech carries over to many other maps that derive their structural elements from FS. We don't really need a patch to combat it, just new maps. Case in point: optimization of PvZ timing attacks led to a massive swing in balance towards Protoss in around 2009, until Zergs figured out how to simcity. As a result, maps from that point on were designed with simcitying in mind, for balance.
Yea skill can transcend map balance, but you can't just go "hey any Protoss can beat any Zerg on Tears of the Moon all the time if they're skilled enough" or "oh well its ok if Zerg can't simcity on this map, he can still win if he's better". These things matter.
Well what would you want kind of features would you want to add to make lategame mech weaker?
Wider chokes leading to expansions? Well that would fucker over early game for some other match ups. How exactly does one build a map to take lategame mech into consideration?
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On January 22 2014 18:45 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 18:19 ArvickHero wrote:
players began experimenting w/ latemech around 2010, but wasn't very effective until 2011.
are we trying to compare 2009/10 progamer Terrans to today's expro/amateur Zergs, because that would be such an unfair/stupid comparison. Better to just compare them to the average 2012 progamer Zerg, who by then were so good at defending against bio that even Light (who was one of the last bastions of lategame TvZ bio) had to switch over to latemech.
but that's really beside my point, which is that FS is imba (despite what some people say) especially in regards to latemech, and FS's problems relating to latemech carries over to many other maps that derive their structural elements from FS. We don't really need a patch to combat it, just new maps. Case in point: optimization of PvZ timing attacks led to a massive swing in balance towards Protoss in around 2009, until Zergs figured out how to simcity. As a result, maps from that point on were designed with simcitying in mind, for balance.
Yea skill can transcend map balance, but you can't just go "hey any Protoss can beat any Zerg on Tears of the Moon all the time if they're skilled enough" or "oh well its ok if Zerg can't simcity on this map, he can still win if he's better". These things matter. Well what would you want kind of features would you want to add to make lategame mech weaker? Wider chokes leading to expansions? Well that would fucker over early game for some other match ups. How exactly does one build a map to take lategame mech into consideration?
Expansion layout
The same thing that makes late mech weaker, make bio stronger.
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10387 Posts
well that'd actually be an interesting discussion now wouldn't it? There's a lot of different possibilities, from trying to deal with it indirectly by giving Zerg a better chance at setting up an advantage in the early/mid-game to translate to a stronger position late-game, or tackling it more directly, such as creating novel map structures (not everything has to be 4player corner maps made from a Luna blueprint).
It'd be fun to see how the game, balance and meta progresses from this point .. or we can just keep using FS and stagnate.
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what we need is hd redesign that changes the color set / art of the game
i think map editor is sufficient
the dark sci fi theme is so 90's
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On January 22 2014 19:03 Boonbag wrote:
what we need is hd redesign that changes the color set / art of the game
i think map editor is sufficient
the dark sci fi theme is so 90's
BETRAYAL IN OUR RANKS!!! TERRAN PATRIOTS, TO ARMS!!!
This is completely unacceptable for me personaly. Color set is fine, but its my personal, completely biased and subjective opinion.
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On January 22 2014 18:57 ArvickHero wrote:
well that'd actually be an interesting discussion now wouldn't it? There's a lot of different possibilities, from trying to deal with it indirectly by giving Zerg a better chance at setting up an advantage in the early/mid-game to translate to a stronger position late-game, or tackling it more directly, such as creating novel map structures (not everything has to be 4player corner maps made from a Luna blueprint).
It'd be fun to see how the game, balance and meta progresses from this point .. or we can just keep using FS and stagnate.
I definitely see your point though. At this point FS should be discarded and left to rot in some empty hole somewhere. Seriously to many maps are literally Fighting Spirit with a twist or two. I know I joined the scene relatively late, but to me it seems like most of the maps released in the last 2 years of Brood War were trying to be FS, maybe it's just because KESPA - Brood War was starting to go down hill because of the matchfixing scandal, Blizzard suing KESPA etc etc etc.
But this is 2014, KESPA is pretty much dead, gone and burried as far as I'm concerned and we have SOSPA now and a great opportunity to go back to more wacky map design. Mist for instance seems like a step in the right direction, but I wish that Sonic would just rotate out most of the old KESPA maps next season, maybe leave 1 map, but let it not be FS. Something like Othello maybe - Standardish, but still interesting.
I imagine that practicing new maps is probably the last thing the current top SOSPA players want, but Sonic has already established himself and he has the power to enforce new maps and these players most definitely won't leave because they have to practice a couple of new maps like they have for their entire careers.
Slightly less relevant:
Have any of the current top SOSPA players actually talked or expressed their feelings on how they feel about Sonic adding and enforcing more new maps?
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On January 22 2014 19:20 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 19:03 Boonbag wrote:
what we need is hd redesign that changes the color set / art of the game
i think map editor is sufficient
the dark sci fi theme is so 90's BETRAYAL IN OUR RANKS!!! TERRAN PATRIOTS, TO ARMS!!! This is completely unacceptable for me personaly. Color set is fine, but its my personal, completely biased and subjective opinion.
I would watch it if it looked like the style of Starcrafts.
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On January 22 2014 19:20 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 19:03 Boonbag wrote:
what we need is hd redesign that changes the color set / art of the game
i think map editor is sufficient
the dark sci fi theme is so 90's BETRAYAL IN OUR RANKS!!! TERRAN PATRIOTS, TO ARMS!!! This is completely unacceptable for me personaly. Color set is fine, but its my personal, completely biased and subjective opinion.
haha i meant mainly giving it a more arcade vibe
the retro look is pretty good
i just feel it would be better if it looked little more punchy, as far as specating goes
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Terran
Ghost - i would make them come out earlier, maybe fac tech.. i have the idea of them fending off muta attks with their 7 range, 8 in bunkers. cloak research from academy.
mines needs nerfing, either in the form of costing some minerals like 5 or 10 or reducing number from 3 to 2.
Goliath - AA weap upgrade is too good change from +4 to +2.
Vessel - cost increase to 3 supplies.
BC - attk change from 25 to 30.
Valk - cost decrease to 225/125.
Zerg
Queen - Spawn Broodling mana cost 150 to 125, upgrade increase 100/100 to 200/200. Change infest to work on all races, for zerg the infested hatch becomes ur own, for toss nexus gets to build a zerg/toss hybrid unit.
Devourer - increase attk rate. cost decrease to 125/50.
Toss
DT - armor nerf to 0. cost increase or hp decrease.
DA - MC needs rework imo, make it a temp MC, mana and research cost both reduced, and it no longer costs shields.
Scout - increase ground attk to 10, increase fire rate. cost decreased to 225/125.
Carrier - decrease armor to 3.
Arbiter - increase attk and firerate.
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Lol I can't believe the post just above mine. I don't think broodwar needs that much changes balance wise. Only things that would seem wise to me is to slightly buff completely unused units.
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Resolution upgrade to 800*600, just like diablo2 exp upgraded diablo2 res.
The macroµ will be more wonderful under 800*600 imo.
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Gameplay wise, maybe a slight buff for firebats. Not so much so that they become a problem in early/midgame TvZ, but so bio could be a littttttle less brittle in bio TvP. Maybe soak up a bit more storm/reaver/goon damage. Not enough that bio is considered as viable as mech in that matchup, but just enough to give a bio player some semblance of a meat shield/tank that can help against zealots and possibly buy them *some* time to transition into a better unit composition. Might create situations where both T and P have to dance around and position their zealots/dragoons/HT v marine/medic/firebat to get optimal damage in. As of now bio TvP is 100% based on the element of surprise. It still should be, but maybe giving a bigger window to survive after the bio strat is known to the protoss player could make it less of an all-in/gimmicky strat. Again, I don't know if this could be done in a meaningful way without breaking TvZ. I would guess that if Z could survive the early game somehow that it wouldn't affect the matchup too much.
I think creep spread that didn't give vision would help Z defend new expos in ZvT. Just a slight speed bonus or something. Thinking along the lines of expos like 12,3,6 and 9 on FS where getting a nydus sometimes just doesn't help all that much when you can't really run down those ramps in most cases. Would probably break PvZ though? If you could use sunkens/spores/creep colonies to spread creep down ramps this mechanic could help Z without seeing maps completely covered in creep every game like in SC2. Zergs would have to invest more to "build" creep and it could be a mostly defensive thing. This is probably too much to add to BW though thinking about it more. Would be hard to justify implementing it and even harder to find a way to make it useful but not completely game changing.
Scount speed without upgrade definitely. Cutting its air to ground attack speed in half (or maybe by a third) seems wise. Those two buffs with a slightly lower cost (maybe even a little bit less build time) would make the scout a bit less useless but not so much so that we'd see them often at all. Definitely gives the unit a bit of versatility that it COMPLETELY lacks atm.
Other than that more obvious things include the valk sprite bug... ever so slightly buffing the scarab pathfinding AI (SLIGHTLY!!!!)... and increasing resolution slightly. Of course multiplayer improvements like auto LAN latency, easier hosting, etc. but I was mostly approaching it from a gameplay perspective.
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And destructible rocks/custom hotkeys of course...  . NOTTTT. HARDCORE BBY!
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On January 22 2014 02:31 2Pacalypse- wrote:
customize keyboard shortcuts - i never understood why people are so adamantly against it
i agree with all your points too
The keys should remain the same, just as everyone should play with the same fotball in a fotball match .
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EPT
