On January 28 2014 12:23 [[Starlight]] wrote: I mean, pre-nerfing, Scouts' and Wraths' ATG attack was maybe almost on par with that of Mutas (Muta ATG did considerably more dmg per shot, if you remember the bounces, but Muta cooldown was worse).
I think Blizzard's reason for nerfing their air to ground damage was a very valid one, they only forgot to give the scout a new role once it could no longer fill the old one.
With scouts' ridiculous air to air damage and HP, not even valkyries or corsairs necessarily do that well against them, so they needed to be killable from the ground so not every game would devolve into massed basic air units.
Wraiths have a clear role in the game despite lowered ground damage so I don't understand your criticism there. I can only imagine how with the old damage TvT would be basically ZvZ by now with rushed massed wraiths every game. Just look at how powerful the wraith already is in TvT.
I haven't tested it recently (am just coming back to the game after a long absence), but I'd have to think massed valks or sairs would clobber an equal-cost amount of scouts or wraiths(assuming detection, and assuming the fight isn't big enough for the valk sprite bug to be an issue).
We can say, 'Oh, that's just the SC Compendium, its silly', but Bliz staff and designers themselves were saying the exact thing on the Bliz forums way back when. That's the model they were working from.
Valks don't really have a role vs TvP unless Scouts show up, and in numbers. And post-1.04 patch, didn't see many wraiths 'cept in TvT.
I also remember pre-1.04 Starcraft. Yes, there were Wraith and Scout rushes (gosh, I sure do miss Scout rushes, don't you?), but it wasn't 'every game'. And then BW came along with the counter air units and Charon Boosters. Those might've been enough to deal with the issue, without nerfing ATG on top of it. Or perhaps a milder nerf would've worked better.
I have to admit TvT wraith rushing being more enabled is one thing that worries me. But again, valks. Charon Boosters. EMP vs mass cloak. And wraiths are pretty fragile, at the end of the day... muta HP, but while being Large.
On January 28 2014 13:30 [[Starlight]] wrote: I haven't tested it recently (am just coming back to the game after a long absence), but I'd have to think massed valks or sairs would clobber an equal-cost amount of scouts or wraiths(assuming detection, and assuming the fight isn't big enough for the valk sprite bug to be an issue).
Probably yes but they wouldn't destroy them like corsairs do mutas once they reach critical mass. The idea behind the pure air to air units is that you should be able to counter his air units with much less resources invested. If the valkyries and corsairs only have a slight edge then the guy with the multipurpose air units will have a huge advantage.
So given how strong scouts are in air to air combat they couldn't really have that AND good ground damage. Although admittedly simply nerfing the ground damage wasn't a good solution either, they should have just reworked the unit from the ground up and given it a new role.
On January 28 2014 13:45 fencer wrote: Probably yes but they wouldn't destroy them like corsairs do mutas once they reach critical mass. The idea behind the pure air to air units is that you should be able to counter his air units with much less resources invested. If the valkyries and corsairs only have a slight edge then the guy with the multipurpose air units will have a huge advantage.
Well, someone's going to have to test it, then.
I'll try to get around to it in the next couple of days, if someone doesn't beat me to it.
Maybe even if. I'm now very curious to see exactly how hard the counter is. Because y'know, you just didn't see the actual fight that much in practice, IIRC. Scouts flat-out don't get used, and wraiths don't get seen all that much 'cept in TvT.
On January 28 2014 15:01 fencer wrote: Just noticed you said "scouts and wraiths", I only meant scouts not being terrible against sair/valks. Wraiths would get raped of course
If you're equalizing for cost it shouldn't matter *too* much. Scouts are tougher and hit harder, but they also cost way more.
And they both have 0 base armor... bad thing for 'em vs valks/sairs.
On January 28 2014 15:01 fencer wrote: Just noticed you said "scouts and wraiths", I only meant scouts not being terrible against sair/valks. Wraiths would get raped of course
If you're equalizing for cost it shouldn't matter *too* much. Scouts are tougher and hit harder, but they also cost way more.
And they both have 0 base armor... bad thing for 'em vs valks/sairs.
Actually ferncer is right. Scout murder valk's and sairs. Test it with speed boost, valks have absolutely no chance.
And test it with microing.
Its offcourse only pure vs pure, valks are support unit and thats what they should do in fights vs scouts.
On January 28 2014 15:01 fencer wrote: Just noticed you said "scouts and wraiths", I only meant scouts not being terrible against sair/valks. Wraiths would get raped of course
If you're equalizing for cost it shouldn't matter *too* much. Scouts are tougher and hit harder, but they also cost way more.
And they both have 0 base armor... bad thing for 'em vs valks/sairs.
Actually ferncer is right. Scouts murder valk's and sairs. Test it with speed boost, valks have absolutely no chance.
And test it with microing.
I find that hard to believe, but, that's why we test things. I'll test it in a few days... busy week upcoming.
I'll test simple a-move first, then micro, like focus-fire and splitting. But I won't do anything too unlikely, like each scout coming in from a different angle/point-of-origin and surrounding the valks or sairs whilst being perfectly spread out. Just doesn't happen much in real-world games.
5 scouts 2 shot a single Valk to kill it. For comparison 5 wraights 3 shots valks to kill it. Also, effective health of scout is highter than that of wright and valkyrie. [armour bonus calculates here twice for valkyrie, becouse scout makes "doubled attack", 14 points each] - I dont know about upgreaded valk vs upgreaded scout yet.
Funny theorycrafting: it is theorytically possible to beat unupgraded scouts with unclocked wrights by abusing its superior range and speed. i never tested that, so maybe its just a pure theory.
[post-bump] [have been searching for balance posts for a long time]
one thing that really annoys me is that how Lurker spines can miss their targets when enemy units are running away or running past them - whereas tanks have ZERO delay from firing to shell exploding.
Lurker spines shoot just a hair faster, and maybe a 20 millisecond delay for the tank shots, hitting where the target was 20 milliseconds ago (such that if a zergling were to run in direction of the tank it would still get killed in one shot).
On January 20 2016 03:59 gabsingin wrote: [post-bump] [have been searching for balance posts for a long time]
one thing that really annoys me is that how Lurker spines can miss their targets when enemy units are running away or running past them - whereas tanks have ZERO delay from firing to shell exploding.
Lurker spines shoot just a hair faster, and maybe a 20 millisecond delay for the tank shots, hitting where the target was 20 milliseconds ago (such that if a zergling were to run in direction of the tank it would still get killed in one shot).
- improvements for battlenet (lan latency, automated matchmaking, copy paste, scrolling through in game chat,...)
- additional replay functionalities (such as rewinding)
- Fix specific bugs (ramp bug (see bisu game), frozen units, larva blocking the morphing of buildings, sprite issue of valkyries)
- Balance issues? Not sure... I ran the numbers for queens and it takes around 3 minutes and 20 seconds (!!!) to gain 150 energy to cast a single spawn broodling. Increasing their energy regeneration or slightly reducing the cost of spawn broodling would be immensely helpful in my opinion.
I'm still unfamiliar with protoss and terran but I think the ghost and scout could use some small tweaks.
I'd do : key rebinding; multiple building selection & unlimited unit selection (no need to tell me for the millionth time this breaks the game i'm aware of it) add a visual line to see what a unit will do when I press shift + a visual line to see where rally points go (SC2 style) add the ability to shift click buildings (for supply depots/pylons for example); add the ability to give a constructing scv a shift clicked order on what to do next add a game lobby option to show the map at the start of a game (greyed map + fog of war, SC2 style)
All in all that's changes to make the game more enjoyable and less stressful for newbies so I could play it with my -even worse than me- friends.
On January 20 2016 05:15 TwiggyWan wrote: I'd do : key rebinding; multiple building selection & unlimited unit selection (no need to tell me for the millionth time this breaks the game i'm aware of it) add a visual line to see what a unit will do when I press shift + a visual line to see where rally points go (SC2 style) add the ability to shift click buildings (for supply depots/pylons for example); add the ability to give a constructing scv a shift clicked order on what to do next add a game lobby option to show the map at the start of a game (greyed map + fog of war, SC2 style)
All in all that's changes to make the game more enjoyable and less stressful for newbies so I could play it with my -even worse than me- friends.
On January 20 2016 05:57 mca64Launcher_ wrote: remove toss race
You confused it with SC2, don't you?
I was thinking to create similar thread, glad this already exists. So my ideas are:
*** Since zerglings are small units and pop out as 2 from 1 larva egg allow to select 24 of them instead of 12 at once. *** Scourges also are small and pop out from 1 larva egg (read above) *** Implement HD soundtrack (My HD music patch for example) *** -Reserved-
Also since OP says "If you could..." I think patching by your own desire BW isn't really hard deal. There are some modding programs which can change so many things of game, especially unit tweaks such as DPS, spawn time, cost etc.
EPT
