On January 27 2014 00:05 rel wrote: You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
If that'd remained Bliz's attitude as of v1.00, not sure BW would've become as great as it did. Probably not.
Well chess went through a lot of changes throughout the centuries until it became the game it is today, same thing with BW I guess.
Really good point. For instance, chess didn't start out with either en passant or pawns having the option to move two squares on their first move. Those things came later.
Chess evolved for quite awhile before it became the game we play today, even checkers went through some changes early on. If you want a game that was 'done' on first draft, try tic-tac-toe.
On January 27 2014 00:05 rel wrote: You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
On January 27 2014 00:05 rel wrote: You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
There are way too many draws in high level chess for my tastes It's one of the main reasons I'm more interested in Go
I know I suck and that it doesn't matter at a beginner's level, but if I pick a game up, I'd like to end up being decent at it one day. And then it will matter.
On January 27 2014 00:05 rel wrote: You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
Heh Zerg's pretty hard at low levels too. Most low level players can't hotkey all their hatches and their macro suffers equally, especially since they then have to go base to base to macro. Unit control for Zerg can be quite challenging as well. I'd say toss is the only one that has pretty darn easy unit control.
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
Heh Zerg's pretty hard at low levels too. Most low level players can't hotkey all their hatches and their macro suffers equally, especially since they then have to go base to base to macro. Unit control for Zerg can be quite challenging as well. I'd say toss is the only one that has pretty darn easy unit control.
my only experience with Z was two games. ZvT where I beat my opponent's rush, he gg'd but didn't leave then I had no clue how to break him (I just droned then) and then lost lol. ZvP, managed to get a third but then sat back and eventually lost to mass carriers... ya, I get your point. I wonder how hotkeys are used for zerg but I figure you can use camera keys for hatchery locations and most control groups for your units with later ones being the tier 3 units and spellcasters etc...
I think the reason I feel it's more favoured is because as terran, I have to stay on top of my production. If I don't make units for x time, my money pills up and I can't get back those units. Maybe if I have more structures, I can overcome this though(iloveoov used to do something similar). For zerg, if they manage to stockpile money due to poor macro, let's sink them all into ultras at once lol. I guess I see it as not much of a problem because of the way larva works for Zerg. I've done the same before so it's not about easier macro for sure but at least you can still get out those late game units and since we both have poor macro, the zerg is more likely to win. Protoss unit control is pretty easy lol. Let's hope no protoss players read this
I think early/mid game zvt is at least equally hard for terran as for zerg. lategame if going bio then it's tougher for terran cuz zerg can at least semi-easily defend 4 gas while ultra herding or whatever, but lategame going mech is easier than countering it is for z also.
Also I think stuff like dark swarm and irradiate are part of what makes bw so great.. There's a whole lot seemingly totally imbalanced stuff,but somehow strategical+map evolution have made it work out superbly. like pvt, p's ability to expand and power up unhindered is totally imbalanced, but then 100 supply of terran ground does an alright job against 200 supply of protoss ground, and as long as maps are so big that protoss can actually mine more then it ends up being totally fair.
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
Heh Zerg's pretty hard at low levels too. Most low level players can't hotkey all their hatches and their macro suffers equally, especially since they then have to go base to base to macro. Unit control for Zerg can be quite challenging as well. I'd say toss is the only one that has pretty darn easy unit control.
my only experience with Z was two games. ZvT where I beat my opponent's rush, he gg'd but didn't leave then I had no clue how to break him (I just droned then) and then lost lol. ZvP, managed to get a third but then sat back and eventually lost to mass carriers... ya, I get your point. I wonder how hotkeys are used for zerg but I figure you can use camera keys for hatchery locations and most control groups for your units with later ones being the tier 3 units and spellcasters etc...
I think the reason I feel it's more favoured is because as terran, I have to stay on top of my production. If I don't make units for x time, my money pills up and I can't get back those units. Maybe if I have more structures, I can overcome this though(iloveoov used to do something similar). For zerg, if they manage to stockpile money due to poor macro, let's sink them all into ultras at once lol. I guess I see it as not much of a problem because of the way larva works for Zerg. I've done the same before so it's not about easier macro for sure but at least you can still get out those late game units and since we both have poor macro, the zerg is more likely to win. Protoss unit control is pretty easy lol. Let's hope no protoss players read this
Heh, at a lower level you can just queue two-three marines at once per rax if you start cashfloating and the production is insanely better than if you were attempting to just build one marine at a time and keep remembering. At least that's how it was up until C level on iCCuP when I played. Keep in mind I haven't played since SC2 came out , although I still watched Proleague for a while.
I ended up just going mech in TvZ whenever I played. Imo it was arguably one of the easiest matchups to play from the Terran side. Just get vultures early on, then mass goliath/tank, super easy macro with expensive units to avoid cashfloating .
Just learn how to pressure the zerg and tvz gets a lot easier. You can't just be doing nothing and letting zerg do as he pleases. Once you grasp this concept and start applying it then your winrate will skyrocket. Just forcing the zerg to unburrow lurkers alone can cause them to stumble all over their keyboard. (at the level you guys are talking about)
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
On January 27 2014 08:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think early/mid game zvt is at least equally hard for terran as for zerg. lategame if going bio then it's tougher for terran cuz zerg can at least semi-easily defend 4 gas while ultra herding or whatever, but lategame going mech is easier than countering it is for z also.
Also I think stuff like dark swarm and irradiate are part of what makes bw so great.. There's a whole lot seemingly totally imbalanced stuff,but somehow strategical+map evolution have made it work out superbly. like pvt, p's ability to expand and power up unhindered is totally imbalanced, but then 100 supply of terran ground does an alright job against 200 supply of protoss ground, and as long as maps are so big that protoss can actually mine more then it ends up being totally fair.
ya, I love how even though some stuff is imba in BW, in the end, it all balances out somehow which is why I'm reluctant to recommend any balance changes in this thread(-2 I already mentioned lol). My mech is pretty terrible for some reason lol. I think I just don't macro well enough and every unit is needed when you mech imo. With bio, my micro can make up for my lackluster macro XD
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
Heh Zerg's pretty hard at low levels too. Most low level players can't hotkey all their hatches and their macro suffers equally, especially since they then have to go base to base to macro. Unit control for Zerg can be quite challenging as well. I'd say toss is the only one that has pretty darn easy unit control.
my only experience with Z was two games. ZvT where I beat my opponent's rush, he gg'd but didn't leave then I had no clue how to break him (I just droned then) and then lost lol. ZvP, managed to get a third but then sat back and eventually lost to mass carriers... ya, I get your point. I wonder how hotkeys are used for zerg but I figure you can use camera keys for hatchery locations and most control groups for your units with later ones being the tier 3 units and spellcasters etc...
I think the reason I feel it's more favoured is because as terran, I have to stay on top of my production. If I don't make units for x time, my money pills up and I can't get back those units. Maybe if I have more structures, I can overcome this though(iloveoov used to do something similar). For zerg, if they manage to stockpile money due to poor macro, let's sink them all into ultras at once lol. I guess I see it as not much of a problem because of the way larva works for Zerg. I've done the same before so it's not about easier macro for sure but at least you can still get out those late game units and since we both have poor macro, the zerg is more likely to win. Protoss unit control is pretty easy lol. Let's hope no protoss players read this
Heh, at a lower level you can just queue two-three marines at once per rax if you start cashfloating and the production is insanely better than if you were attempting to just build one marine at a time and keep remembering. At least that's how it was up until C level on iCCuP when I played. Keep in mind I haven't played since SC2 came out , although I still watched Proleague for a while.
I ended up just going mech in TvZ whenever I played. Imo it was arguably one of the easiest matchups to play from the Terran side. Just get vultures early on, then mass goliath/tank, super easy macro with expensive units to avoid cashfloating .
ya but I want to learn how to play properly. If I get myself used to queue then it'll become harder to break the habit. I used to queue in SCII as well but eventually became better at it so it's every once in a while. As it stands, I only queue when I'm floating a ton of mineral so late-ish game. I think I need to work on my map vision. Reason being that once units are done, you get the yellow squares telling you so so I can then go back and make more. Shame on you for not playing BW since! Well, it's never too late to start playing again
I prefer bio over mech due to how much more microable it seems although late game mech is something that I'm going to start gravitating towards soon enough
On January 27 2014 09:46 Harem wrote: Just learn how to pressure the zerg and tvz gets a lot easier. You can't just be doing nothing and letting zerg do as he pleases. Once you grasp this concept and start applying it then your winrate will skyrocket. Just forcing the zerg to unburrow lurkers alone can cause them to stumble all over their keyboard. (at the level you guys are talking about)
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
I usually try to pressure early on but I've had some bad luck where I make it just as the sunkens are finished building. Other cases, I've just focused on my macro and less so on pressure so eventually, I lose the opportunity to prevent the zerg's third from going up and lose the game 10+ min later. I think I just need to be more active with my bio play and not afraid to take risks. It always surprised me how decent my opponent's muta micro is(D+ level). I think I need to incorporate more dropships in my play and get faster tanks+vessels lol.
Regarding Liquid'Drone's point above about maps, as he said how Terran cost effeciently beats Protoss armies, but with current maps where Protoss can outexpand it doesn't matter; Do you guys think that Brood War could still be balanced with different maps that currently would be considered "unstandard"? If the meta of maps shifted (as they have in the past) would the meta of builds, playstyle, and games also be able to change and still produce balanced games, a 50/50 win ratio between to equally skilled, different race players? Or are the maps intrinsic to the balance?
On January 27 2014 09:46 Harem wrote: Just learn how to pressure the zerg and tvz gets a lot easier. You can't just be doing nothing and letting zerg do as he pleases. Once you grasp this concept and start applying it then your winrate will skyrocket. Just forcing the zerg to unburrow lurkers alone can cause them to stumble all over their keyboard. (at the level you guys are talking about)
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
On July 29 2009 22:43 ret wrote: Both matchups now had a clear path set for me to follow; and I did. I learned that Terran was more and more a race. A race to get to the ammount of units that the Zerg simply could not defend. I started playing games with only one goal in mind:
'Have as many units as possible within the physics of Starcraft:Broodwar. If you can do this, there is almost no way the zerg can muster enough of an army to stop you before defilers, unless they micro/macro'ed perfectly.'
couldn't find the original just found myself quoting it. h8rs gonna h8
On January 27 2014 08:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think early/mid game zvt is at least equally hard for terran as for zerg. lategame if going bio then it's tougher for terran cuz zerg can at least semi-easily defend 4 gas while ultra herding or whatever, but lategame going mech is easier than countering it is for z also.
Also I think stuff like dark swarm and irradiate are part of what makes bw so great.. There's a whole lot seemingly totally imbalanced stuff,but somehow strategical+map evolution have made it work out superbly. like pvt, p's ability to expand and power up unhindered is totally imbalanced, but then 100 supply of terran ground does an alright job against 200 supply of protoss ground, and as long as maps are so big that protoss can actually mine more then it ends up being totally fair.
ya, I love how even though some stuff is imba in BW, in the end, it all balances out somehow which is why I'm reluctant to recommend any balance changes in this thread(-2 I already mentioned lol). My mech is pretty terrible for some reason lol. I think I just don't macro well enough and every unit is needed when you mech imo. With bio, my micro can make up for my lackluster macro XD
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
Heh Zerg's pretty hard at low levels too. Most low level players can't hotkey all their hatches and their macro suffers equally, especially since they then have to go base to base to macro. Unit control for Zerg can be quite challenging as well. I'd say toss is the only one that has pretty darn easy unit control.
my only experience with Z was two games. ZvT where I beat my opponent's rush, he gg'd but didn't leave then I had no clue how to break him (I just droned then) and then lost lol. ZvP, managed to get a third but then sat back and eventually lost to mass carriers... ya, I get your point. I wonder how hotkeys are used for zerg but I figure you can use camera keys for hatchery locations and most control groups for your units with later ones being the tier 3 units and spellcasters etc...
I think the reason I feel it's more favoured is because as terran, I have to stay on top of my production. If I don't make units for x time, my money pills up and I can't get back those units. Maybe if I have more structures, I can overcome this though(iloveoov used to do something similar). For zerg, if they manage to stockpile money due to poor macro, let's sink them all into ultras at once lol. I guess I see it as not much of a problem because of the way larva works for Zerg. I've done the same before so it's not about easier macro for sure but at least you can still get out those late game units and since we both have poor macro, the zerg is more likely to win. Protoss unit control is pretty easy lol. Let's hope no protoss players read this
Heh, at a lower level you can just queue two-three marines at once per rax if you start cashfloating and the production is insanely better than if you were attempting to just build one marine at a time and keep remembering. At least that's how it was up until C level on iCCuP when I played. Keep in mind I haven't played since SC2 came out , although I still watched Proleague for a while.
I ended up just going mech in TvZ whenever I played. Imo it was arguably one of the easiest matchups to play from the Terran side. Just get vultures early on, then mass goliath/tank, super easy macro with expensive units to avoid cashfloating .
ya but I want to learn how to play properly. If I get myself used to queue then it'll become harder to break the habit. I used to queue in SCII as well but eventually became better at it so it's every once in a while. As it stands, I only queue when I'm floating a ton of mineral so late-ish game. I think I need to work on my map vision. Reason being that once units are done, you get the yellow squares telling you so so I can then go back and make more. Shame on you for not playing BW since! Well, it's never too late to start playing again
I prefer bio over mech due to how much more microable it seems although late game mech is something that I'm going to start gravitating towards soon enough
On January 27 2014 09:46 Harem wrote: Just learn how to pressure the zerg and tvz gets a lot easier. You can't just be doing nothing and letting zerg do as he pleases. Once you grasp this concept and start applying it then your winrate will skyrocket. Just forcing the zerg to unburrow lurkers alone can cause them to stumble all over their keyboard. (at the level you guys are talking about)
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
I usually try to pressure early on but I've had some bad luck where I make it just as the sunkens are finished building. Other cases, I've just focused on my macro and less so on pressure so eventually, I lose the opportunity to prevent the zerg's third from going up and lose the game 10+ min later. I think I just need to be more active with my bio play and not afraid to take risks. It always surprised me how decent my opponent's muta micro is(D+ level). I think I need to incorporate more dropships in my play and get faster tanks+vessels lol.
Heh, well just because you make it harder on yourself because you want to get better doesn't mean then it's harder at the lower levels. You're intentionally making it harder for yourself .
On January 27 2014 09:46 Harem wrote: Just learn how to pressure the zerg and tvz gets a lot easier. You can't just be doing nothing and letting zerg do as he pleases. Once you grasp this concept and start applying it then your winrate will skyrocket. Just forcing the zerg to unburrow lurkers alone can cause them to stumble all over their keyboard. (at the level you guys are talking about)
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
On July 29 2009 22:43 ret wrote: Both matchups now had a clear path set for me to follow; and I did. I learned that Terran was more and more a race. A race to get to the ammount of units that the Zerg simply could not defend. I started playing games with only one goal in mind:
'Have as many units as possible within the physics of Starcraft:Broodwar. If you can do this, there is almost no way the zerg can muster enough of an army to stop you before defilers, unless they micro/macro'ed perfectly.'
couldn't find the original just found myself quoting it. h8rs gonna h8
Ret is always ret of course, but doesn't that sound very all in-ish? What if he holds? Personally I never like to play as if I fear the lategame in any matchup, even though I'm only D
On January 27 2014 08:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think early/mid game zvt is at least equally hard for terran as for zerg. lategame if going bio then it's tougher for terran cuz zerg can at least semi-easily defend 4 gas while ultra herding or whatever, but lategame going mech is easier than countering it is for z also.
Also I think stuff like dark swarm and irradiate are part of what makes bw so great.. There's a whole lot seemingly totally imbalanced stuff,but somehow strategical+map evolution have made it work out superbly. like pvt, p's ability to expand and power up unhindered is totally imbalanced, but then 100 supply of terran ground does an alright job against 200 supply of protoss ground, and as long as maps are so big that protoss can actually mine more then it ends up being totally fair.
ya, I love how even though some stuff is imba in BW, in the end, it all balances out somehow which is why I'm reluctant to recommend any balance changes in this thread(-2 I already mentioned lol). My mech is pretty terrible for some reason lol. I think I just don't macro well enough and every unit is needed when you mech imo. With bio, my micro can make up for my lackluster macro XD
You don't patch chess... you don't patch Broodwar... it's perfect right now...
Now SC2.. I'd love to patch the whole game out of existence.
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
:O balance whining! reported!
On January 27 2014 06:51 FabledIntegral wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:20 McRatyn wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:17 BigFan wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:02 miercat wrote: [quote]
Actually, it has been currently acknowledged in the Professional Chess scene - by both players and commentators - that there are significant issues regarding professional "Classical Chess" (Chess as it is commonly known), and its viability as a competitive game. To the extent that at least discussion has begun, regarding completely phasing out competitive Classical Chess, and replacing it, with potentially more viable alternatives - e.g. Rapid, Chess960. The specifics are unclear at this time, but certainly, issues regarding gameplay are being generally acknowledged, and potential improvements are being considered.
The same concept may be applied to BW. The difference being, the changes that could be made to BW, could be relatively gentle in comparison, while vastly improving gameplay and balance. No one can realistically claim that BW is perfect, or optimally(enough) balanced (it's probably the best game ever, but not perfect, and there are ways to improve it); the question is not- whether or not you feel BW should be patched/balanced (personal feelings on this matter are essentially irrelevant), the question is, are there significant imbalances - and are there there ways to ameliorate these imbalances, in a way that improves the quality of certain matchups, while leaving intact- the quality of other matchups. Statistical analysis shows that the answer to the former is yes. And finding suitable "patches" to ameliorate significant balance issues, is certainly not the most practically difficult thing to do (e.g. it is potentially eminently possible, at least in some regards).
based on what I've read and played with, I think the 'major' balance changes that should be made are that valkyrie sprite bug that everyone talks about and possible looking into the defiler and science vessel. Things like the reaver, storm and such I think are fine since there is a chance to dodge them. At my low level, once the zerg gets to defiler tech, unless I've limited their bases and was constantly pressuring to keep their army size small, I pretty much always lose lol. Dark swarm is pretty difficult to fight against just due to how many actions you need to do(unsiege tanks, pull back while try to irridate the defiler and avoid scourage etc...). If you are pushed back to your exp(assuming it wasn't the case in the first place), it becomes hard to break. Having said that, I still enjoy playing against it so I dunno what patching can be done for it lol. It does remind me of the infestor to a degree during WoL days where once my opponent got them out in mass, I knew it was impossible to win lol >.>
Defiler? You mean Winfiler? (Sorry I couldn't help it)
Problem is that TvZ has generally been T favored regardless. Sci Vessels limit the defilers easily enough imo that the spell will kill an expensive unit.
ya, at highest level it is but at low levels, I think TvZ is more Z favoured due to not having the APM to macro while controlling your bio army. I don't mind it though because it feels good when you win against late game Zerg lol. That and it's good practice since you worker harder(become faster) with each game
Heh Zerg's pretty hard at low levels too. Most low level players can't hotkey all their hatches and their macro suffers equally, especially since they then have to go base to base to macro. Unit control for Zerg can be quite challenging as well. I'd say toss is the only one that has pretty darn easy unit control.
my only experience with Z was two games. ZvT where I beat my opponent's rush, he gg'd but didn't leave then I had no clue how to break him (I just droned then) and then lost lol. ZvP, managed to get a third but then sat back and eventually lost to mass carriers... ya, I get your point. I wonder how hotkeys are used for zerg but I figure you can use camera keys for hatchery locations and most control groups for your units with later ones being the tier 3 units and spellcasters etc...
I think the reason I feel it's more favoured is because as terran, I have to stay on top of my production. If I don't make units for x time, my money pills up and I can't get back those units. Maybe if I have more structures, I can overcome this though(iloveoov used to do something similar). For zerg, if they manage to stockpile money due to poor macro, let's sink them all into ultras at once lol. I guess I see it as not much of a problem because of the way larva works for Zerg. I've done the same before so it's not about easier macro for sure but at least you can still get out those late game units and since we both have poor macro, the zerg is more likely to win. Protoss unit control is pretty easy lol. Let's hope no protoss players read this
Heh, at a lower level you can just queue two-three marines at once per rax if you start cashfloating and the production is insanely better than if you were attempting to just build one marine at a time and keep remembering. At least that's how it was up until C level on iCCuP when I played. Keep in mind I haven't played since SC2 came out , although I still watched Proleague for a while.
I ended up just going mech in TvZ whenever I played. Imo it was arguably one of the easiest matchups to play from the Terran side. Just get vultures early on, then mass goliath/tank, super easy macro with expensive units to avoid cashfloating .
ya but I want to learn how to play properly. If I get myself used to queue then it'll become harder to break the habit. I used to queue in SCII as well but eventually became better at it so it's every once in a while. As it stands, I only queue when I'm floating a ton of mineral so late-ish game. I think I need to work on my map vision. Reason being that once units are done, you get the yellow squares telling you so so I can then go back and make more. Shame on you for not playing BW since! Well, it's never too late to start playing again
I prefer bio over mech due to how much more microable it seems although late game mech is something that I'm going to start gravitating towards soon enough
On January 27 2014 09:46 Harem wrote: Just learn how to pressure the zerg and tvz gets a lot easier. You can't just be doing nothing and letting zerg do as he pleases. Once you grasp this concept and start applying it then your winrate will skyrocket. Just forcing the zerg to unburrow lurkers alone can cause them to stumble all over their keyboard. (at the level you guys are talking about)
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
I usually try to pressure early on but I've had some bad luck where I make it just as the sunkens are finished building. Other cases, I've just focused on my macro and less so on pressure so eventually, I lose the opportunity to prevent the zerg's third from going up and lose the game 10+ min later. I think I just need to be more active with my bio play and not afraid to take risks. It always surprised me how decent my opponent's muta micro is(D+ level). I think I need to incorporate more dropships in my play and get faster tanks+vessels lol.
Heh, well just because you make it harder on yourself because you want to get better doesn't mean then it's harder at the lower levels. You're intentionally making it harder for yourself .
if BW can be played at hyper speed, I would play it at that lol. Well, I see your point but I guess it's one of those habits that I want to stick to. Given, I'm not really complaining about defilers and such. I know I have to improve a ton more before I can get to a level I'm satisfied with and personally, I'm enjoying the ride :D
, although I still watched Proleague for a while. 
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