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Norway28671 Posts
On January 02 2018 22:17 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2018 21:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I mean that's all fair, but it's basically an argument for race picking, because it states that more people would get to play the matchup they prefer - even though you personally wouldn't. The thing is though is there any statistic we can look at of how many people that race pick and how many people that don't? I honestly outside of teamliquid and this is a minority on teamliquid as well from experience have never seen anyone that race picks or wants to. I've never run into people leaving games immediately to dodge matchups easier.
I dunno about the entire player base, never seen statistics for that. But among the 'reasonably high level non-korean crowd', it's been very common. I remember checking iccup a couple months ago, and out of the top 25 nonkorean players for last season, it was like, 12 race pickers, 12 who played only 1 race, and 1 player who had transferred stats so I couldn't see. This sample size is obviously flawed, it was never 50%, but say, looking specifically at the 2000+ mmr outside korea crowd, some variation of racepicking (usually a zerg who plays tvz or pvz instead of zvz) has been very common.
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right? it could actually be much more than 10% then
I know P users who would play ZvP or TvP and a lot of T do either PvT or ZvT, didn't know it was common also for Z users but not surprising since zvz is maybe least loved match up
(personally i mostly love pvp and i think tvt seems quite great, but i don't like zvz a lot, i tend to call it broken lol)
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It's not about race picking per se, Qikz, it's about the possibility to practice specific match-ups. The reason for doing so doesn't matter. Some will do it because they are race pickers, some will do it because they just want to practice a match up. For me, I want to play pvt because I want to get better at tvp.
Being able to play anonymously and being able to pick your race have always been a fundamental part of brood war.
Either way, having the option to race pick doesn't infringe on the rights of those who want to play only one race. I see no reason not to allow race picking other than laziness from the developers.
I believe that we lose more players than we gain by not allowing players to pick race or map.
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Norway28671 Posts
I think the no smurf rule is fine and having to choose from a map pool when playing ladder is good - essentially considering 'ranked' as 'ranked' and not as 'practice' even if many people like to use ranked as practice. But while you can definitely argue that playing only FS is less demanding than playing FS CB Jade Tau Match Point (and thus that to play ranked you need to be part of the latter group), there's no such argument for why playing zvp zvt zvz is more demanding than playing zvp zvt pvz, or whatever other combo.
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I can see your point, and I would agree if there was any other way to get decent practice right now. Optimal would be to have a practice queue based of MMR or something then where you can do anything you'd like.
Ranked should still allow race picking though. The only reason race picking is ever banned is because its unfair to the preparation of the opponent. In ranked, thats not an issue since you still have to do 3 matchups randomly.
Also, I definitely see ranked as practice. Thats all I ever used ICCup for.
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yeah for me too ladder is for practice and ranking is cherry on top kind of
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Ive emailed Matt Sherman from Blizzard about my ideas on racepicking (after meeting him at Zotac) and he seemed receptive to it. Last I heard they were on break but would get back into the office yesterday and would be discussing my email sometime in january. So, I am hopeful.
In the meantime, ladder has been a horribly inefficient place to practice for me. I wrote a blog about my frustrations with ladder and the general callousness towards racepickers and my opinion hasnt changed
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How would two race-pickers play against each other? Maybe we can't agree on what matchup to play.
Let's say I play TvZ, ZvP, PvT. I play against a person with the same preferences. Which matchup do we play?
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51455 Posts
i'd say the MM engine would try and avoid matching these players up
worst scenario would be if theoretically within their MMR threshold they are the only two players available to play at any one given time, but i highly doubt that would ever occur
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 03 2018 08:01 GTR wrote:
i'd say the MM engine would try and avoid matching these players up
worst scenario would be if theoretically within their MMR threshold they are the only two players available to play at any one given time, but i highly doubt that would ever occur
I'm not an expert coder, but judging on the code I've written wouldn't that be insanely hard to do?
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Norway28671 Posts
On January 03 2018 07:50 iopq wrote:
How would two race-pickers play against each other? Maybe we can't agree on what matchup to play.
Let's say I play TvZ, ZvP, PvT. I play against a person with the same preferences. Which matchup do we play?
It's a non-issue because this type of race picking is done by less than 1% of race-pickers. 99% play two matchups with one race and dodge the mirror (and in this event, there are no scenarios where there are no overlapping matchups). People were race picking for about 18 years before sc remastered was released, I've been doing it forever, it has literally 0 times been an issue in any tournament or ladder game. I remember there kinda was one with Trek vs Daaman in WCG 2004 where they couldn't agree and I think Trek changed during the countdown (trek also being the only player I can think of who race picked 3 different races).
From a programming point of view, because you can't just have the game crash if it should happen, I say assign both their 'vs random' race, or simply don't match them against each other. Maybe after 3000000 ladder games are played there's this one guy who wonders why he had to play one zvt despite not having selected that as one of his matchups in one game or something, but either way every person who race picks would prefer pretty much any solution that lets them race pick and gives them weird scenarios once every 10000 games over having to play a non-preferred matchup 33% of the time.
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On January 03 2018 07:50 iopq wrote:
How would two race-pickers play against each other? Maybe we can't agree on what matchup to play.
Let's say I play TvZ, ZvP, PvT. I play against a person with the same preferences. Which matchup do we play?
This is a quote from the email I sent to blizzard earlier:
Basically my solution would be this: In the screen where you pick race, add a side option to pick matchups/racepick. The majority of people will just pick zerg, terran or protoss and ignore it, so it wont be in their way. For racepickers though, once they select that, they would have 4 selections to make: Which race to play vs zerg, which race to play vs terran, which race to play vs protoss, and which race to play vs random. So for example I would pick protoss vs zerg, protoss vs terran, zerg vs protoss, and protoss vs random. I'm aware that with racepickers in the pool, sometimes that would cause a problem with two people not sharing a common matchup. I think there are two ways to easily rectify this - either ignore it, and have those players wait for the next player (this has happened to me literally twice in my life over thousands of games, so its extremely unlikely to affect search wait times), or have the 4th option of which race to play vs random also include vs racepickers with no shared matchup. So for me, that would again be protoss. Also there is the consideration for which side of a matchup each player gets - such as me playing ZvP/PvT/PvZ vs another player who selected ZvP/PvZ/ZvT or something similar - we both play ZvP/PvZ. In my opinion that should just be randomized, with me getting PvZ 50% of the time and ZvP 50%. Since all opponents are accounted for with this method, it should not reduce search wait times and the ladder would continue as normal, without any inconvenience to non-racepickers.
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yeah thats good it does it
either that or pre-game lobby with greyed cancel auto start within 5 sec type of stuff doesn't matter to me which although for team games lobby would be more practical probably after?^^
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Hope you can help me out with this one.
When is the next ASL gonna be? What happened with OSL? Why are there no Korean tournaments going on besides those? 
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On January 05 2018 03:17 CoL_DarkstaR wrote:Hope you can help me out with this one. When is the next ASL gonna be? What happened with OSL? Why are there no Korean tournaments going on besides those?
ASL should be soon(tm). I think JD and Stork have to do their service soon (though afaik stork is doing some sort of community service), so I think it should start in January, right?
OSL is apparently cancelled. OGN complained about not enough interest in the Seoul Super Cup. I think the fact that Blizz is asking for cash instead of giving it also plays a huge role.
Other than that there are still the usual online things + spoons going on. Oh and Blizzard didn't allow Afreeca to do another ASL Teambattle (for the second time). We'd probably be watching that right now if they hadn't.
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When checking my Bnet profile, I can see "stats" for example. Is there any way to view my % in specific matchups. For example I would like to see what my winrate vs protoss is.
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Norway28671 Posts
starlog.gg might work, but it's definitely unreliable. For me it only displays like 10-20% of ladder games.
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Ok, they should incorporate that into bnet i think. Since they have a page for stats and percentages and whatnot. Its actually quite interesting to see imo.
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matchmaker is too slow t_t over 3 minutes search even at peak time, i just cant get mass games going
iccup worked a lot lot faster at lower population, and this matchmaker is supposed to search worldwide..?
I tried queueing at the same time as someone with same MMR the other day, it didn't match us in 30sec. why is it so slow? a lot of times it will take over 100 seconds, sometimes i wait 300 and still don't find opponent, obviously there is lot of ppl playing on korea, asia and even US but it wont find them?
i'd rather be able to use custom games for ladder, like this i just tend to play 2 or 3 games then log off.. (sometimes less cause it wont find a game)
i mean, normally i'd want to be able to play up to 20 games a day if I'm on fire lolz but i just cant do that or it'd be a ton of waiting t_t
lol i was trying to look at profiles while waiting for matchmaker to find opponent, profile loading so slow, i could have checked 10 profiles on original haha..
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I am loosing double points when loosing a game, and gaining always only normal amout while winning, I have no problem with other issues described here - rarley I'm waiting more than minute or 2, but this is annoying as fuck. After half year this what could've been called "bug" is, well, quite unbeliveable. I can;t figure out on what it depends - as sometimes I just lose points, and sometimes double amount of them. What's the reason, from programming side I can't understand. I mean don't get me wrong, I really like remastered but this is really annoying.
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EPT
