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So I was just reading the interview ( here ) TL did to the MLG guys and they talk, and I quote: "(...) and to learn from the Flash's, Bisus and Storks of the world".
So, I think everyone in this forum knows about the TBLS (Taek-Baeng Leessang, which refers to Flash, Jaedong, Stork and Bisu), seeing this I always wondered why Stork belonged to this group. I mean, he is a great player, but we are putting him in the same category as people who have won 3 individual titles at least (in before BISU NO OSL LOL).
So, why is this?
I thought that maybe they needed a Protoss and since Bisu isn't quite at the same level as Flash and Jaedong, they decided to add another P to the mix. Or maybe is it because Flash and Jaedong never found a rival in their same race as fierce as Storku?
Enlighten me.
P.S.: It seems as this matter would have been discussed before, but I didn't find anything, so I hope I didn't fuck up.
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51574 Posts
Stork was pretty much blow-to-blow with Bisu in terms of best Protoss around the time after the 3.3 revolution.
Also he made tons of major league finals, only to choke and lose.
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Context explains a lot - the term's been around since 2008 or so: Bisu had his MSLs but Flash and JD "way back then" only had a title or so each, Stork (finally) won a league.
Also the thing about Stork is it seems like he ought to do better (he's consistently up with the win leaders in Proleague, makes it deep into most starleagues, etc. etc.) he just doesn't. Whether it's due to laziness (cell phone games lol) or some other problem... eh.
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Flash and Jaedong got their first golds from Stork. /thread
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It's been TJLS for me for a long time now tbh (since JinAir OSL).
Edit: Bacchus, mindfart 
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Consider what would happen if Stork's OSL silvers were golds (disregarding even other leagues):
Stork: 4 titles
Flash: 2
Jaedong: 2
(Bisu: 0 )
Impressed?
Basically, if not for Flash, Jaedong would have been the greatest player. If not for Flash and Jaedong, Stork would have been the greatest. If not for the three of them... Fantasy would still be greater than Bisu, hahaha.
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On May 16 2012 22:43 GTR wrote:
Stork was pretty much blow-to-blow with Bisu in terms of best Protoss around the time after the 3.3 revolution.
Also he made tons of major league finals, only to choke and lose.
On May 16 2012 22:46 VGhost wrote:
Context explains a lot - the term's been around since 2008 or so: Bisu had his MSLs but Flash and JD "way back then" only had a title or so each, Stork (finally) won a league.
Also the thing about Stork is it seems like he ought to do better (he's consistently up with the win leaders in Proleague, makes it deep into most starleagues, etc. etc.) he just doesn't. Whether it's due to laziness (cell phone games lol) or some other problem... eh.
Oh, that does explain a lot, thank you!
/thread
I guess we can use the thread to pick on Stork then
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Always felt bad for fantasy, skill wise feels like he should be knocking on the door of tbls.
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Croatia9530 Posts
This is his head-to-head score against each of them:
vs Flash (13 wins - 14 losses (48.15%))
vs Jaedong (14 wins - 13 losses (51.85%))
vs Bisu (15 wins - 10 losses (60.00%))
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On May 16 2012 23:00 moochu wrote:
Always felt bad for fantasy, skill wise feels like he should be knocking on the door of tbls.
I always thought of Fantasy as the 'Gatekeeper' to S class. Even while he's contesting the #1 spot, he gave of that vibe 'if you want to have a shot at TBLS, you have to go through ME' kind of thing 
Note: Fanta is my favourite T, no contest. So blind fanboyism might be present.
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Didn't he have like 2 girlfriends over the years and the last one dumped him right before the most recent finals vs Fantasy?
Or were people making it up and he was just lazy and played too much WoW?
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On May 16 2012 23:33 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Didn't he have like 2 girlfriends over the years and the last one dumped him right before the most recent finals vs Fantasy?
Or were people making it up and he was just lazy and played too much WoW?
IIRC same girl, they're back together. He did play WoW (he admitted it) but "not that much" lol.
Stork has been around 8 years in the professional scene and he's still kickin' it strong as a top-notch, respected, team-ace player. That's why he's so respected. Generally those veterans are bench-warmers before they make take a bow and retire.
I also read somewhere or someone told me that amongst progamers, Stork is still considered "the absolute best" when it comes to large army management and control vs. Terran. With his low APM, he still manages to do extremely clean and efficient army management, most of the time. Anyway, I'm a big Stork fanboy and yeah Stork <3
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Stork's silvers came at the hands of Bisu Jaedong Flash Fantasy; you can't get much tougher competition than that. His lifetime win rate is almost up there with them, with the 8 players above 60% (inc. nada oov effort), his PvT noteworthy at 66%, the best in history. He's been in 5 finals, whereas Bisu has been in 4; he's been at or near the top longer than Bisu, and has almost as many months at Kespa #1. The fact that he's still making Starleague runs at his age is a testament to his longevity, and I'd say he's one of the favorites this time around, after a great Proleague season. Since 2009 Bisu has been a Proleague monster but consistently underwhelming where the top talent lies in Starleague/MSL.
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Stork -> His PvT is good.
Bisu -> His PvZ is good.
My understanding betwen these 2 Protoss.
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To be honest, based on results over the last couple of years, Fanta probably deserves the spot more. But it's TBLS...you can't really change it.
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On May 16 2012 22:41 cybertopo wrote:
since Bisu isn't quite at the same level as Flash and Jaedong
ok
i mean "ok"
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People really underestimate Stork's overall achievement because he tends to come and go these days, performing at peak level at times, average player at others. You really have to look at his entire body of work to understand why Korean fans put him with Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash.
Medal Count
1 OSL Gold(beat Fantasy in the finals)
3 OSL Silvers(lost to Flash, Jaedong, and Fantasy when those three were near or at the top of BW scene at the time)
1 MSL Silver(lost to Bisu in the infamous "Goon Range" Game 5)
1 WCG Gold and 2 WCG Silvers(mostly an achievement for being 1 of 3 Korean players to qualify in three straight years)
1 GOM Invitational Silver(Famous for Flash's anti-carrier build)
1 SPL Gold(Ace player for 2008 Samsung Khan team that won it all)
1 SPL Silver(Ace player for 2007 Samsung Khan team that lost to Oz in the finals)
Other tidbits
- The best PvT player in history(career-wise). He peaked in 07-08, when his PvT was considered literally invincible. In fact, Flash first rise to become the top player was basically destroying Stork's then unbeatable PvT in GOM Invitational and later Bacchus OSL. Even today Stork's basically always among the top PvTer. His carrier builds in PvT are pretty much auto-win against just about everyone except Flash.
-Consistently plays in both the OSL and the MSL. Generally advancing much further in OSL than the MSL. This is one aspect that Bisu can't touch, since he's generally a MSL-only guy.
-The most consistent senior progamer, as he's been around longer than BLS. Very good player since even back in 2005. And still made a SL finals in 2011.
-Always had trouble concentrating solely on BW. Even mentioned how he was playing WoW when he should've been practicing for the finals. This result in him getting into a lot of "slumps" when he would look pedestrian for long stretches. Because he can't keep his concentration on BW as intently as many others.
-Mediocre overall PvZ has plagued his entire career. He plays great PvZ at times, horrendous ones at others. I don't have the stats, but it seems like a majority of his SL exits came at the hand of zergs.
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Stork wins a lot , but just not when it matters the most . He trashes players in PL and league group stages and doesn't play to his full ability in Bo5 series against opponents on his level . Doesn't innovate much and plays to predictable which leads to opponents playing mind games on him which ends up in Stork chocking .
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37069 Posts
Pretty sure if Daniel saw this, he'd prepare an entire essay defending why Stork belongs up there. Complete with pictures, graphs, and gifs of Stork being a complete boss
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On May 16 2012 23:14 2Pacalypse- wrote:This is his head-to-head score against each of them: vs Flash (13 wins - 14 losses (48.15%)) vs Jaedong (14 wins - 13 losses (51.85%)) vs Bisu (15 wins - 10 losses (60.00%))
Ya, pretty much speaks for itself. Stork players more than evenly with them in Proleague. He's lost to each of them in finals, but beaten them in earlier stages and I wouldn't call it stork choking either when watching the games for the most part. He deserves to be up there for sure.
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I think you really need to understand the history of the term TBLS to understand it. Someone who speaks Korean would know it in more detail, but from what I remember:
The term Taek-Bang was coined in 2007. Stork was already considered a strong (perhaps the strongest) Protoss player, after the 3.3 revolution Bisu quickly became the undisputed best player in the scene. The two were considered rivals for the Protoss throne and said 'rivalry' peaked in the GomTV-S2 MSL where they fought against each other in the finals.
The term Leessang was coined in 2008. After going 5-5 against each other in games spanning three leagues, with both winning the respective leagues where they advanced (Jaedong won that MSL, Flash that OSL and GomTV Invitational), Flash and Jaedong went head to head fighting for best player in the world. Flash being ahead most of the time until Gom-Classic S1 Finals where Jaedong beat Flash 3-0.
At this time though Stork was doing a lot better then Bisu when it came to challenging Jaedong/Flash. Stork was in the finals against both Jaedong and Flash (x2).
At some point, I'm not sure when but I'm guessing it was during the Golden Age of Protoss in late 2008, when both Stork and Bisu won a championship (OSL and MSL respectively), the two terms were combined into TaekBangLeessang.
I agree that with the benefit of hindsight, if we were to now select the three best players of the post-Savior era, Stork would not be considered in the running, and the position of 4th best would be heavily contested by Fantasy/Effort or even others. However at the time the terms were coined, Stork was clearly the 4th best player of the day, still considered very close in skill to Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, and it was not at all clear Stork would be stuck to one gold and a personel silver-cartel.
I hope that helps explain it, though this is of course just my version of things as I remembered them happening at the time.
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It's more simply the number of medals and win rate. It is about consistent performance and the play style that gives you the impression that this player belongs at the top.
How many Starcraft players who debuted 8 years ago and still on par with the best of the best?
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Stork has a great record against Bisu/JD/Flash, got to a lot of OSL Ro8+, and has been very consistent for a super long time.
Actually I think he's close to break NaDa's longest stay in the KeSPA top 30.
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Stork has always been a consistent player, although he has had his losing streaks against vZ for a bit (remember when he got cheesed like 2-3x in a row? poor Stork)
I enjoy his PvT alot too
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I think it is because he is a likeable player and plays Protoss like no-one else? Also, with P being the "underdog", he has shown the most remarkable results.
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Because right after the fall of the Heavenly Kings, Stork/JD/Bisu/Flash have shown the best potential out of the remaining players. The term I believe was coined in the year of 2008. When Flash have beaten Stork in the OSL final, Jaedong beaten Stork in the OSL, Bisu beating Stork in the MSL. Because of the winnings from all those 3 players and the fact that Stork made it very far in the leagues, the reason is pretty rhetoric as for why was he inducted together with the aforementioned players.
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On May 16 2012 22:55 figq wrote:Consider what would happen if Stork's OSL silvers were golds (disregarding even other leagues): Stork: 4 titles Flash: 2 Jaedong: 2 (Bisu: 0 ) Impressed? Basically, if not for Flash, Jaedong would have been the greatest player. If not for Flash and Jaedong, Stork would have been the greatest. If not for the three of them... Fantasy would still be greater than Bisu, hahaha.
well you have to consider the others silvers too, even though Stork would still be at 4, jaedong at 4, and flash would have 4. fantasy would also have 4 , july 5, nada 4
edit:
im adding up golds+silvers
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Stork is the most consistent protoss, he also has the most wins of all time of any protoss player, and he's won an Osl
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On May 17 2012 05:38 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 22:55 figq wrote:Consider what would happen if Stork's OSL silvers were golds (disregarding even other leagues): Stork: 4 titles Flash: 2 Jaedong: 2 (Bisu: 0 ) Impressed? Basically, if not for Flash, Jaedong would have been the greatest player. If not for Flash and Jaedong, Stork would have been the greatest. If not for the three of them... Fantasy would still be greater than Bisu, hahaha. well you have to consider the others silvers too, even though Stork would still be at 4, jaedong at 4, and flash would have 4. fantasy would also have 4 , july 5, nada 4 edit: im adding up golds+silvers Nono, my point is - if Stork just won these 3 OSL finals that he lost, nothing else. This situation - in which both Flash and Jaedong are only half as successful as Stork is only 3 matches away from being true.
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Bisu has sick micro and multitasking, but in terms of understanding of the game Stork is far superior. How Stork manages to execute and get away with his abusive PvT builds is simply astonishing.
Bisu > Stork in PvP and PvZ
Stork >>> Bisu in PvT
That's how I see.
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Every time I see Stork's stats, I am impressed.
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United States10358 Posts
On May 16 2012 23:55 Unnamezz wrote:
Stork -> His PvT is good.
Bisu -> His PvZ is good.
My understanding betwen these 2 Protoss.
Actually, Bisu's vT is pretty good. He has a 62.44% win rate to Stork's 66.37%. Not that far if you consider it.
But back in the day, Bisu and Stork were trading blows for best PvP. Currently, Stork is on a 6 game winning streak vs Bisu, and holds their life-time games 15-9.
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stork's my favorite brood war player, its kind of sad that hes so underrated
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On May 17 2012 07:01 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Every time I see Stork's stats, I am impressed.
Truth. I don't always give Stork a lot of credit, (alot of it is because his team misuses him as an ace imo, another part of it is that I don't believe he has Flash's or JD's fighting spirit) but Stork definitely deserves respect. Some of my favorite and most educational starcraft watching experiences were with him in the booth.
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imba bad joke, i don't want to be banned so i'll put it in spolier
+ Show Spoiler +it's because both terran and zergs are imba so they need 2 protosses... just kidding... pls. don't ban me!
on a serious note, it's because bisu is PvZ god but he's bad vT but stork is the best protoss vT but he's bad vZ. if you merge the two, you get an archon and there goes your best protoss in the merging of taekbang! 
i love tbls, btw.
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They are all S class though I think Bisu-Jeadong-Flash are best .
Crazy amp and skill to back that up.
though Jeadong is my fav. His games are so brutal to watch. I can say no one wins like Jeadong.
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On May 17 2012 07:25 O_ovPvo_O-SNAKE wrote:
They are all S class though I think Bisu-Jeadong-Flash are best .
Crazy amp and skill to back that up.
though Jeadong is my fav. His games are so brutal to watch. I can say no one wins like Jeadong.
Agreed, Savior kills his opponents in an elegant way, whilst Jaedong kills his opponents in a brutal way.
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On May 17 2012 06:58 ppshchik wrote:
Bisu has sick micro and multitasking, but in terms of understanding of the game Stork is far superior.
For example, how Stork decides to fight Hydra without storms for 5 minutes and get raped... Oh, that a actually a bad game understanding.
Your point is off. Do you think it is possible to constantly change PvZ without full understanding of the match-up?
All s-class players have it and relay heavily on that.
Also, Zero's game-understanding, for instants, is different from Jaedong's, because one of them can get away with queens+defilers micro, while other can get away with 2 muta-stacks micro. They just see things differently. Same with others.
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Because Stork was promising at some point.
It's true he never finally delivered, but it's inconsequential since TBLS the designation is now around.
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On May 17 2012 07:02 FlaShFTW wrote:
But back in the day, Bisu and Stork were trading blows for best PvP. Currently, Stork is on a 6 game winning streak vs Bisu, and holds their life-time games 15-9.
TLPD doesn't have the results in the database but Bisu has beaten Stork in a number of IEF tournaments over the years, usually in finals. With that said Stork's BoX wins over Bisu have come at really costly times for Bisu, with the exception of that MSL final. Like in the EVER2007 OSL semi-final, a win there puts Bisu vs. the OSL rookie Jaedong in the final. In more recent times that Ro16 loss for Bisu meant the Revolutionist missed out on an all-Zerg run to another MSL title.
On May 16 2012 23:55 Unnamezz wrote:
Stork -> His PvT is good.
Bisu -> His PvZ is good.
My understanding betwen these 2 Protoss.
Bisu has a 71.35% lifetime PvZ winrate, a matchup which is typically favoured for the Zerg. That's quite a lot more than just "good". To put that in context: Terran is typically favoured over Zerg yet Flash's lifetime TvZ winrate is "only" 0.55% higher.
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i like how people tend to understate the fact of getting to the finals - "only get silver" and stuff like that lol.
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On May 16 2012 23:17 Kittan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:00 moochu wrote:
Always felt bad for fantasy, skill wise feels like he should be knocking on the door of tbls. I always thought of Fantasy as the 'Gatekeeper' to S class. Even while he's contesting the #1 spot, he gave of that vibe 'if you want to have a shot at TBLS, you have to go through ME' kind of thing Note: Fanta is my favourite T, no contest. So blind fanboyism might be present.
Fantasy is S class!
Leta is the S-Class Test :3
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=126547
/Leta fanboy <3<3<3
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On May 17 2012 07:33 elagrion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 06:58 ppshchik wrote:
Bisu has sick micro and multitasking, but in terms of understanding of the game Stork is far superior. For example, how Stork decides to fight Hydra without storms for 5 minutes and get raped... Oh, that a actually a bad game understanding. Your point is off. Do you think it is possible to constantly change PvZ without full understanding of the match-up? All s-class players have it and relay heavily on that. Also, Zero's game-understanding, for instants, is different from Jaedong's, because one of them can get away with queens+defilers micro, while other can get away with 2 muta-stacks micro. They just see things differently. Same with others.
Big Stork fan but i have to agree. The blanket statement that "Storks understanding of the game is far superior" and bisu is "multitasking and micro" is wrong. Stork plays a very haphazard PvZ game. He is nigh unbeatable lategame PvZ but during the early midgame he is extremely gungho and has not the intuition that bisu has. Once bisu's scouting sair has seen thr zerg base he is able to glean so much information such that he knows down to the zealot how much he can or cannot get away with. I believe it's very much the same in regards to vT.
Neither protoss has been able to achieve complete understanding in both non-mirror matchups.
Can wish one day for a Bork Archon.
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On May 17 2012 08:40 smekz wrote:
i like how people tend to understate the fact of getting to the finals - "only get silver" and stuff like that lol.
A silver is insignificant compared to a gold. Many scrubs have gotten to the finals, only to be rolled.
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scrubs can also win golds
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I would consider Fantasy S-class easily, despite his TvZ lacking the essential bio mastery.
Bisu compared to Stork:
Stork has(or used to have) supperior builds/timings in PvT and Bisu is the buildorder mastermind in PvZ.
Bisu's multitasking, visible mainly vs zerg opponents is unmatchable.
Stork's micro is better!
Anytime in PvZ when Stork has a balanced zealot+dragoon+templar+-archon composition, watching it march through map and crushing all zerg enemies... It's beautiful.
About PvP.. um I don't know I guess it's somewhat equal.
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On May 17 2012 09:40 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:40 smekz wrote:
i like how people tend to understate the fact of getting to the finals - "only get silver" and stuff like that lol. A silver is insignificant compared to a gold. Many scrubs have gotten to the finals, only to be rolled.
Kwanrolled even!
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On May 17 2012 09:40 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:40 smekz wrote:
i like how people tend to understate the fact of getting to the finals - "only get silver" and stuff like that lol. A silver is insignificant compared to a gold. Many scrubs have gotten to the finals, only to be rolled.
Stork's number of silvers (before he got a gold) was Yellow class, and I don't think anyone would think of Yellow as a scrub. When you get to the finals that many times it means it is no coincidence or lucky streak. You could easily say that just one gold doesn't prove much, for example Casy's OSL run (actually he was an amazingly brilliant player in at least TvZ, it's just that he is pretty much worse than Light in terms of TvP [no really, like half as good as light as tvp]). But Stork getting in that many finals over this long a period of time, plus his overall record vs Flash Bisu Dong, is enough to put him with them. If you were to measure all four in terms of strength and overall career achievement it probably goes Flash Dong Bisu (only because of Savior) Stork, but they are not very far seperated. Just like Boxer Nada Yellow and Reach were not that far separated, which if you want consistency is the real measure here. Stork is basically analogous to Yellow in terms of qualification.
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Because while Bisu was just playing BW, Stork was watching One Piece, Playing WoW, and still getting into all the OSLs and won one.
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Stork has daniel, idk why this is even an argument
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Even with Bisu winning 2 Golds and 1 Silver in 2007, Stork won Kespa Protoss of the year 2007. I actually think he had the highest win rate of any professional player that year (individual + proleague) although I may be mistaken. Stork first made the Kespa top 30 and the OSL Ro16 in 2005. It was also 2005 that he became one of the 3 Neo Kings of Protoss, and caught the eye of Boxer who proclaimed him the next great Toss. And he stayed good enough to make the 6 Protoss Dragons of 2008, and even now in 2012 he's the top ranked Protoss on the Power Rank.
He's been in more OSL+MSL finals than any other Protoss ever (and more than Fantasy). and is the definition of OSL consistency (16 OSL Ro16 appearances, 3 more than any other player ever). As has been said, he does really well against the other TBLS (perhaps not in the finals, but certainly in Proleague where he has a winning percentage against them all).
Stork is undoubtedly the 4th most successful player since the end of the Savior era, and thus that is why he gets to be TBLS. Only 3 players have won multiple OSL+MSL siince then, and those are the other TBLS. And of the Silver Surfers with one gold, Stork has more finals appearance than them (JB and Fanta).
I even think Stork's inconsistanly is slightly exaggerared, as he's always in the OSL to compensate for any PL shortcomings, and even then his proleague is almost always really good (like this year, for example). Fantasy has been far more inconsistant imo. Although he's only shortly behind Stork in success, it's important to keep in mind he is behind.in pretty much every category overall.
Then again, Stork just plays so good. He's top 4 just from subjectively watching him play. That's the real reason!
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On May 17 2012 02:03 nadafanboy42 wrote:I think you really need to understand the history of the term TBLS to understand it. Someone who speaks Korean would know it in more detail, but from what I remember: The term Taek-Bang was coined in 2007. Stork was already considered a strong (perhaps the strongest) Protoss player, after the 3.3 revolution Bisu quickly became the undisputed best player in the scene. The two were considered rivals for the Protoss throne and said 'rivalry' peaked in the GomTV-S2 MSL where they fought against each other in the finals. The term Leessang was coined in 2008. After going 5-5 against each other in games spanning three leagues, with both winning the respective leagues where they advanced (Jaedong won that MSL, Flash that OSL and GomTV Invitational), Flash and Jaedong went head to head fighting for best player in the world. Flash being ahead most of the time until Gom-Classic S1 Finals where Jaedong beat Flash 3-0. At this time though Stork was doing a lot better then Bisu when it came to challenging Jaedong/Flash. Stork was in the finals against both Jaedong and Flash (x2). At some point, I'm not sure when but I'm guessing it was during the Golden Age of Protoss in late 2008, when both Stork and Bisu won a championship (OSL and MSL respectively), the two terms were combined into TaekBangLeessang. I agree that with the benefit of hindsight, if we were to now select the three best players of the post-Savior era, Stork would not be considered in the running, and the position of 4th best would be heavily contested by Fantasy/Effort or even others. However at the time the terms were coined, Stork was clearly the 4th best player of the day, still considered very close in skill to Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, and it was not at all clear Stork would be stuck to one gold and a personel silver-cartel. I hope that helps explain it, though this is of course just my version of things as I remembered them happening at the time.
To add to your excellent post: I remember during the "golden age of toss" in several interviews people referred to it as the Taek-Bang era. The leessang was then appended to it after the fact.
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Stork-Girlfriends loves to fuck with him (dumps him right before finals), plays cellphone games, played a ton of WoW, plays LoL, loves watching/reading onepiece. Fucking manly.
Bisu-single forever, looks like a woman.
Bisu vs Flash is 11-16 Bisu vs Jaedong is 12-8 and Bisu vs Stork is 10-15
Stork vs Flash 13-14 Stork vs Jaedong is 14-13 and Stork vs Bisu is 15-10
Stork vs other TBLS is 2-1 while Bisu is 1-2
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Stork should be considered top 4 in the post Savior era. Don't see why anyone would should argue otherwise. Virtually dead even with Flash and JD head-to-head, ahead of Bisu by a good margin now, had a fierce rivalry with Bisu back in 07, falling to Bisu in MSL finals 2-3, but getting revenge 3-0 in OSL semfinals (before losing to JD). Bisu only seems better if you look back at the medal count -- Stork was more successful overall since Bisu sucked in PL back then (oooooh the irony~~~~). Without looking at TLPD, IIRC Stork helped carry Khan to the PL grandfinals during this time period, although that didn't mean as much then as it does these days.
The only player who can rival Stork for that "#4 post-Savior" slot is Fantasy. I think Fantasy has done more in less time considering he didn't hit the big time until mid 2008 or so, whereas Stork was already earning recognition back in 2004-2005, but Stork still has 1 more finals appearance, has had a more significant rivalry than any of Fantasy's and can claim an overall larger metagame influence. So the short answer is that Fantasy still ranks lower "overall." If we're looking at current performance, of course Fantasy is actually my choice for #2 in the world for the past 1 - 1.5 years, but current performance should not be confused with overall achievement. Noteworthy also is that Stork is right now the top Protoss. Don't see why anyone would put Effort or anybody else in the same category. Love Effort, but he just hasn't done as much.
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Stork is on the kong line... his accomplishments are not representative of his skill if you only count gold finishes.
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On May 17 2012 02:03 nadafanboy42 wrote:
I agree that with the benefit of hindsight, if we were to now select the three best players of the post-Savior era, Stork would not be considered in the running, and the position of 4th best would be heavily contested by Fantasy/Effort or even others. However at the time the terms were coined, Stork was clearly the 4th best player of the day, still considered very close in skill to Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, and it was not at all clear Stork would be stuck to one gold and a personel silver-cartel.
I don't see how one can say this objectively.
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On May 16 2012 22:41 cybertopo wrote:So I was just reading the interview ( here ) TL did to the MLG guys and they talk, and I quote: "(...) and to learn from the Flash's, Bisus and Storks of the world". So, I think everyone in this forum knows about the TBLS (Taek-Bang Leessang, which refers to Flash, Jaedong, Stork and Bisu), seeing this I always wondered why Stork belonged to this group. I mean, he is a great player, but we are putting him in the same category as people who have won 3 individual titles at least (in before BISU NO OSL LOL). So, why is this? I thought that maybe they needed a Protoss and since Bisu isn't quite at the same level as Flash and Jaedong, they decided to add another P to the mix. Or maybe is it because Flash and Jaedong never found a rival in their same race as fierce as Storku? Enlighten me. P.S.: It seems as this matter would have been discussed before, but I didn't find anything, so I hope I didn't fuck up.
Stork is the only other Protoss that can go toe to toe with Flash and Jaedong, and usually has awesome games and even awesome cheeses. Plus he was that good at BW, a much harder game, while playing WoW and cell phone games lol. Imagine how good he'd be practicing SC2 part time!
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Fantasy is getting up there, #2 player after Flash now.
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If only Stork doesn't know WoW, One-Piece and Cellphone games....
That and Hydra Bust destroying his PvZ.
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On May 16 2012 23:40 OpticalShot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:33 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Didn't he have like 2 girlfriends over the years and the last one dumped him right before the most recent finals vs Fantasy?
Or were people making it up and he was just lazy and played too much WoW? IIRC same girl, they're back together. He did play WoW (he admitted it) but "not that much" lol. Stork has been around 8 years in the professional scene and he's still kickin' it strong as a top-notch, respected, team-ace player. That's why he's so respected. Generally those veterans are bench-warmers before they make take a bow and retire. I also read somewhere or someone told me that amongst progamers, Stork is still considered "the absolute best" when it comes to large army management and control vs. Terran. With his low APM, he still manages to do extremely clean and efficient army management, most of the time. Anyway, I'm a big Stork fanboy and yeah Stork <3
I've always heard that's how he earned his Commander nick. It seems pretty spot on though he's been kinda silly this season (Song Blue-Goo). I did seem him a few years back get out multi-tasked by Jaedong's raw APM which was pretty ridiculous. Jaedong attacked at 2 locations and was microing both halves of his army and Stork just couldn't. Was nuts.
He could be the great again if he spent a little more effort I feel. He can be pretty ballsy but doesn't seem to have the motivation for it. Remember all those suicide speed shuttles from his gold final?
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Always considered Stork to be better that Bisu. But he is rather more consistent.
He is one of the players that can go play some Angry Birds and kick the shit out of some S class the next day. Prepare like trash for the finals, lose and don't give a damn.
Dat Stroku, he is just so boss!
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If anyone were to be removed from TBLS, it would be Bisu. That is the popular sentiment which I agree with.
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I accually agree with the OP, Stork should belong in fantasy/effort tier.
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Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL.
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On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL.
You forgot wcg's xD
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Stork is remarkable because he is the best player with average mechanics. All of the other TBLS are known for their strong micro and multitasking. Bisu can simply harass a zerg to death. Flash has the best mm control in the world. Jaedong can micro 2 muta stacks. What is Stork's signature move -- Carrier micro? Reaver harass? Not very impressive in comparison. Stork's greatest strength is his game-sense. This is very endearing. It basically says anyone can be a great player if they are smart enough, you don't need to have the fastest hands.
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United States7639 Posts
On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL.
It was GOMtv MSL Season 2. Clubday MSL was the one in 2008 where Bisu beat Jangbi.
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On May 17 2012 02:03 nadafanboy42 wrote:I think you really need to understand the history of the term TBLS to understand it. Someone who speaks Korean would know it in more detail, but from what I remember: The term Taek-Bang was coined in 2007. Stork was already considered a strong (perhaps the strongest) Protoss player, after the 3.3 revolution Bisu quickly became the undisputed best player in the scene. The two were considered rivals for the Protoss throne and said 'rivalry' peaked in the GomTV-S2 MSL where they fought against each other in the finals. The term Leessang was coined in 2008. After going 5-5 against each other in games spanning three leagues, with both winning the respective leagues where they advanced (Jaedong won that MSL, Flash that OSL and GomTV Invitational), Flash and Jaedong went head to head fighting for best player in the world. Flash being ahead most of the time until Gom-Classic S1 Finals where Jaedong beat Flash 3-0. At this time though Stork was doing a lot better then Bisu when it came to challenging Jaedong/Flash. Stork was in the finals against both Jaedong and Flash (x2). At some point, I'm not sure when but I'm guessing it was during the Golden Age of Protoss in late 2008, when both Stork and Bisu won a championship (OSL and MSL respectively), the two terms were combined into TaekBangLeessang. I agree that with the benefit of hindsight, if we were to now select the three best players of the post-Savior era, Stork would not be considered in the running, and the position of 4th best would be heavily contested by Fantasy/Effort or even others. However at the time the terms were coined, Stork was clearly the 4th best player of the day, still considered very close in skill to Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, and it was not at all clear Stork would be stuck to one gold and a personel silver-cartel. I hope that helps explain it, though this is of course just my version of things as I remembered them happening at the time.
Thanks again, very informative.
Also LOL @ 'Bisu is only better than Stork in medal count', yeah ONLY, as if it wasn't the important thing.
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On May 16 2012 23:14 2Pacalypse- wrote:This is his head-to-head score against each of them: vs Flash (13 wins - 14 losses (48.15%)) vs Jaedong (14 wins - 13 losses (51.85%)) vs Bisu (15 wins - 10 losses (60.00%))
Yeah for a while he had a positive score against all three of them
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Does jaedong and his team 8 players have a salary?
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On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL.
Nah son you're forgetting a certain Ma Jae Yoon. MA BONJWA!
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On May 17 2012 18:51 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL. Nah son you're forgetting a certain Ma Jae Yoon. MA BONJWA! He means now.
Currently Stork would have been labeled God, if there weren't Flash and Jaedong.
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On May 17 2012 18:56 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 18:51 rysecake wrote:On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL. Nah son you're forgetting a certain Ma Jae Yoon. MA BONJWA! He means now. Currently Stork would have been labeled God, if there weren't Flash and Jaedong.
Uh, you're kinda forgetting about fantasy, the guy who gave stork his last silver.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
i always said that it was due to become Taek-JUNG LeeSsang shortly after
Now look at Fantasy's records (Gold+Silver at OSL, kicking Flash's ass in SPL final), and then at Stork's
btw Jaedong's results are similarly LOL now, I guess we can as well just "retire" the notion of TBLS entirely 
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On May 16 2012 23:17 Kittan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:00 moochu wrote:
Always felt bad for fantasy, skill wise feels like he should be knocking on the door of tbls. I always thought of Fantasy as the 'Gatekeeper' to S class. Even while he's contesting the #1 spot, he gave of that vibe 'if you want to have a shot at TBLS, you have to go through ME' kind of thing Note: Fanta is my favourite T, no contest. So blind fanboyism might be present.
this is pretty much spot on though.
edit: also, everyone, it's taek-BAENG (not BANG) lee-ssang. BAENG, 뱅, the same vowel sound as in taek 택. 뱅구 is a kind of nickname/dimunitive of 병구 (stork's name). i see a lot of people making this mistake.
edit2: BANG-gu means fart, btw. another reason not to use it.
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On May 17 2012 19:51 b0lt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 18:56 figq wrote:On May 17 2012 18:51 rysecake wrote:On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL. Nah son you're forgetting a certain Ma Jae Yoon. MA BONJWA! He means now. Currently Stork would have been labeled God, if there weren't Flash and Jaedong. Uh, you're kinda forgetting about fantasy, the guy who gave stork his last silver. No, I'm not.
By removing Flash+JD, Fanta gets +1 OSL, Stork gets +2 - he'd be the god today.
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On May 17 2012 21:10 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 19:51 b0lt wrote:On May 17 2012 18:56 figq wrote:On May 17 2012 18:51 rysecake wrote:On May 17 2012 15:42 Release wrote:
Stork is in TBLS because if there was not TLS, Stork would be labelled as the only true Bonjwa. Off the top of my head, CLubday MSL, EVER OSL 07, Bacchus 08, Korean Air S2 2010 OSL. Nah son you're forgetting a certain Ma Jae Yoon. MA BONJWA! He means now. Currently Stork would have been labeled God, if there weren't Flash and Jaedong. Uh, you're kinda forgetting about fantasy, the guy who gave stork his last silver. No, I'm not. By removing Flash+JD, Fanta gets +1 OSL, Stork gets +2 - he'd be the god today.
Theorizing about that seems useless imo... Maybe Flash+JD eliminated Fantasy in a Ro8 and then Stork in the finals, and if they weren't there, then Fantasy and Stork would have played the finals and yadda yadda yadda...
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fantasy is the most underrated player around right now imo
he was number 3 behind flash/jd throughout all of 2010 and is now showing the next best results after flash. yet people still don't see him as a good player or make fun of other players when they lose to him, etc
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On May 16 2012 23:17 Kittan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:00 moochu wrote:
Always felt bad for fantasy, skill wise feels like he should be knocking on the door of tbls. I always thought of Fantasy as the 'Gatekeeper' to S class. Even while he's contesting the #1 spot, he gave of that vibe 'if you want to have a shot at TBLS, you have to go through ME' kind of thing Note: Fanta is my favourite T, no contest. So blind fanboyism might be present.
Roro has long been considered the "S-Class" Gatekeeper in BW. Trust me on that.
Fantasy S-class, 4 OSL finals and perfect PL Finals record.
His vultures and minefields patrol the gates of the SKT1 Palace.
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does anyone know how he got the nickname "STORK"?
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United States10328 Posts
On May 22 2012 21:53 Manimal_pro wrote:
does anyone know how he got the nickname "STORK"?
uh, he chose it (?)
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he CHOSE stork? this confirms the legend that korean pro gamers suck at nicknames
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On May 22 2012 22:10 Manimal_pro wrote:
he CHOSE stork? this confirms the legend that korean pro gamers suck at nicknames
I remember translating an interview that had the nickname question. Basically when Stork started playing, he was still in school, and he flipped through his English textbook for a cool word, he found "Storm", considered it, then found it to be too corny, so he went for something nearby and found "Stork". This is not word-for-word, but it's what I remember from that interview.
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Whats wrong with Stork? Whats a good nickname in your opinion?
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MarineKing is a very good nickname for example, it says something about the player and is unique, stork is just a bird that doesn't do anything impressive other than eating fish
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And corny as storm would have been as well. One of the main things which legitimizes proBW in Korea is that they embrace the players real name. Game ID's are an after thought. It's also why i believe progaming in the west will always remain nerdculture and never be as mainstream as BW is in SKorea.
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Anyone else feel like Fantasy is at the top of BW atm? Lately his games have been so impeccable and he just dismantles people left and right.
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how da hell is marineking unique and stork not
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On May 17 2012 12:47 Mortality wrote:
The only player who can rival Stork for that "#4 post-Savior" slot is Fantasy. I think Fantasy has done more in less time considering he didn't hit the big time until mid 2008 or so, whereas Stork was already earning recognition back in 2004-2005, but Stork still has 1 more finals appearance, has had a more significant rivalry than any of Fantasy's and can claim an overall larger metagame influence.
Even if most of this might be true, the bolded part is REALLY arguable hypothesis. Fantasy's impact for terran metagame was significant.
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Sure maybe some korean nicknames are lame.. but there are a lot of good ones too.. for example Savior is probably the coolest nickname ever..
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On May 22 2012 23:31 stk01001 wrote:
Sure maybe some korean nicknames are lame.. but there are a lot of good ones too.. for example Savior is probably the coolest nickname ever..
True, but since 2010 it doesnt sound that good. For example, I do feel unconfortable when I hear it XD
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especially because the irony
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In case there still isn't enough evidence for Stork belonging to TBLS, he became just the 3rd(?) 100-game winner of the OSL, the most prodigious Starcraft tournament in history. I think only Boxer and Yellow are the other ones. Maybe one other.
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On May 22 2012 19:35 Motivate wrote:
fantasy is the most underrated player around right now imo
he was number 3 behind flash/jd throughout all of 2010 and is now showing the next best results after flash. yet people still don't see him as a good player or make fun of other players when they lose to him, etc
I don't think he's underrated. Perhaps I'm missing something but right now he's undisputed number 2 and depending on how things play out he could easily take the number 1 spot.
Also, Reach has one of the sexiest IDs by far.
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On May 23 2012 06:59 Ozarugold wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 19:35 Motivate wrote:
fantasy is the most underrated player around right now imo
he was number 3 behind flash/jd throughout all of 2010 and is now showing the next best results after flash. yet people still don't see him as a good player or make fun of other players when they lose to him, etc I don't think he's underrated. Perhaps I'm missing something but right now he's undisputed number 2 and depending on how things play out he could easily take the number 1 spot. Also, Reach has one of the sexiest IDs by far.
He just doesn't have that many fans on TL imo . No fanclub for him too after one got closed for having too little info/pics etc.
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On May 22 2012 22:36 Manimal_pro wrote:
MarineKing is a very good nickname for example, it says something about the player and is unique, stork is just a bird that doesn't do anything impressive other than eating fish
Using an ID like "MarineKing" for a SC game is like the corniest and laziest thing you can do. It's about as equal to "CrazyHydra."
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On May 23 2012 07:39 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:36 Manimal_pro wrote:
MarineKing is a very good nickname for example, it says something about the player and is unique, stork is just a bird that doesn't do anything impressive other than eating fish Using an ID like "MarineKing" for a SC game is like the corniest and laziest thing you can do. It's about as equal to "CrazyHydra."
Completely agree. Just about as creative as xxXDarKSHadOwDraGoNxxX
Im pretty sure that was MKPS first name.
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United States11393 Posts
On May 23 2012 07:39 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:36 Manimal_pro wrote:
MarineKing is a very good nickname for example, it says something about the player and is unique, stork is just a bird that doesn't do anything impressive other than eating fish Using an ID like "MarineKing" for a SC game is like the corniest and laziest thing you can do. It's about as equal to "CrazyHydra."
Well, he was using girl names before ie Clare, Ellenpage, and IU.
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Let's just say any nickname that uses a name from the actual game is pretty lame and not creative.
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Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc.
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On May 22 2012 23:30 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 12:47 Mortality wrote:
The only player who can rival Stork for that "#4 post-Savior" slot is Fantasy. I think Fantasy has done more in less time considering he didn't hit the big time until mid 2008 or so, whereas Stork was already earning recognition back in 2004-2005, but Stork still has 1 more finals appearance, has had a more significant rivalry than any of Fantasy's and can claim an overall larger metagame influence. Even if most of this might be true, the bolded part is REALLY arguable hypothesis. Fantasy's impact for terran metagame was significant.
Fantasy, or iloveoov?
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On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc.
go to FE
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On May 23 2012 12:02 Crisium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 23:30 hitthat wrote:On May 17 2012 12:47 Mortality wrote:
The only player who can rival Stork for that "#4 post-Savior" slot is Fantasy. I think Fantasy has done more in less time considering he didn't hit the big time until mid 2008 or so, whereas Stork was already earning recognition back in 2004-2005, but Stork still has 1 more finals appearance, has had a more significant rivalry than any of Fantasy's and can claim an overall larger metagame influence. Even if most of this might be true, the bolded part is REALLY arguable hypothesis. Fantasy's impact for terran metagame was significant. Fantasy, or iloveoov?
Fantasy won an OSL and got to the finals of the OSL after than; and won Proleague with oov in the military, He's also on a tear in this OSL. The guy has innate talent; and while I won't deny that oov played a big part in helping him with opening the Valkonic route and mid-game Mech switch; he's way too solid and talented to be anything more than just a vessel.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc.
savior made everyone think that it was pretty much impossible to beat zerg with protoss and made tl mods warn people not to post any more IS PVZ IMBA?? threads
also zvt revolution
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On May 23 2012 12:46 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc. savior made everyone think that it was pretty much impossible to beat zerg with protoss and made tl mods warn people not to post any more IS PVZ IMBA?? threads also zvt revolution
Could you elaborate on his zvt revolution? And compare him to the level of people like jaedong and effort?
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On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
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On May 23 2012 13:01 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 12:46 alffla wrote:On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc. savior made everyone think that it was pretty much impossible to beat zerg with protoss and made tl mods warn people not to post any more IS PVZ IMBA?? threads also zvt revolution Could you elaborate on his zvt revolution? And compare him to the level of people like jaedong and effort?
don't quote me on this but i think he was the one who integrated defiler usage? :x
^ probably wrong tho lol
according to liquipedia he made zerg more macro oriented
and also: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/SAviOr
lol might probably have everything you need right there
edit (moar links!) : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
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If I remember correctly, Savior standarized fast lair play to counter 1 base Protoss. Protoss simply cannot beat 2h Muta or 2 lurker cost efficiently, and Protoss will have a very difficult time with map control once Zerg gets lair tech.
As for ZvT, I think Savior was one of the first Zergs to go 3H Muta, although timings were slightly different, the ideas were essentially the same. I think before 3H Muta, Hydra Lurker was popular to counter Terran Bio.
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On May 23 2012 13:05 fishbowl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
Good lord that's a lot of stuff in there.
It's kind of hard to make an SC2 comparison. I guess it would be similar if infestors in SC2 were more powerful and became a hive-tech unit. And a build would be something like using muta-ling to harras and threatening base trade to keep terran in its base. Then tech quickly to infestors which are deadly against marine/medivacs. But the difference between BW and SC2 is that SC2 lair-tech zerg army can fight toe-to-toe with mid-game terran army. Something that they cannot do in BW.
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On May 23 2012 14:15 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 13:05 fishbowl wrote:On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 Good lord that's a lot of stuff in there. It's kind of hard to make an SC2 comparison. I guess it would be similar if infestors in SC2 were more powerful and became a hive-tech unit. And a build would be something like using muta-ling to harras and threatening base trade to keep terran in its base. Then tech quickly to infestors which are deadly against marine/medivacs. But the difference between BW and SC2 is that SC2 lair-tech zerg army can fight toe-to-toe with mid-game terran army. Something that they cannot do in BW.
Look for the LR thread of the first Bisu vs Savior grand final and go through from beginning to end. Its actually hilarious.
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On May 17 2012 09:40 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:40 smekz wrote:
i like how people tend to understate the fact of getting to the finals - "only get silver" and stuff like that lol. A silver is insignificant compared to a gold. Many scrubs have gotten to the finals, only to be rolled.
A silver means a bit more then, say, failing to qualify for the tournament at all, doesn't it?
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On May 23 2012 12:19 Ciryandor wrote:
Fantasy won an OSL and got to the finals of the OSL after than; and won Proleague with oov in the military, He's also on a tear in this OSL. The guy has innate talent; and while I won't deny that oov played a big part in helping him with opening the Valkonic route and mid-game Mech switch blablabla
and you should deny, becouse Fantasy himself denies Oovs asistance with his...how that was called by him? Denchanic?
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On May 16 2012 23:00 moochu wrote:
Always felt bad for fantasy, skill wise feels like he should be knocking on the door of tbls.
To be fair, I think he's been playing better than everyone else for the last several months.
On May 23 2012 15:25 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 14:15 baubo wrote:On May 23 2012 13:05 fishbowl wrote:On May 23 2012 07:55 rysecake wrote:
Gonna steal thread for a sec. I'm fairly new here. Only watched 3 seasons of proleague prior to the hybrid format without rooting for a team (i just rooted for jaedong =P) Now that the hybrid season has started I've decided to root for CJ. I hear alot about savior (good and bad -_-) and his rich history and would like to learn more about him as he came before my time. Anyone care to link stuff? Games, threads, etc. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 Good lord that's a lot of stuff in there. It's kind of hard to make an SC2 comparison. I guess it would be similar if infestors in SC2 were more powerful and became a hive-tech unit. And a build would be something like using muta-ling to harras and threatening base trade to keep terran in its base. Then tech quickly to infestors which are deadly against marine/medivacs. But the difference between BW and SC2 is that SC2 lair-tech zerg army can fight toe-to-toe with mid-game terran army. Something that they cannot do in BW. Look for the LR thread of the first Bisu vs Savior grand final and go through from beginning to end. Its actually hilarious.
There certainly were a lot of guys who couldn't believe what they were seeing and saying how did this happen. I remember getting a good laugh out of it. :>
On May 17 2012 15:40 SoulTakerz wrote:
I accually agree with the OP, Stork should belong in fantasy/effort tier.
The biggest difference you guys have to understand is these are the guys who usually carry a lot of the weight for their respectful teams. Not only that, but they tend to go very deep in tournaments as well. Even Bisu if we consider the time they started labeling them that. No smoke and mirrors.
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Lmao getting hand printing has made all detractors stfu and discussion has moved away from him lol.
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Fantasy has overshadowed the TBLS and will now be classified as a class of his own...
F-class....
Edit: The F obviously stands for Fantastic
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Nice to see Fantasy getting mentioned here. Recent results aside, Fantasy trumps Bisu and Stork in terms of achievements imo
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Russian Federation748 Posts
he's way too solid and talented to be anything more than just a vessel.
It's funny how you phrased it.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
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Russian Federation748 Posts
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On May 16 2012 23:14 2Pacalypse- wrote:This is his head-to-head score against each of them: vs Flash (13 wins - 14 losses (48.15%)) vs Jaedong (14 wins - 13 losses (51.85%)) vs Bisu (15 wins - 10 losses (60.00%))
Jaedong ZvP (68.31%)
Bisu PvP (64.12%)
Flash TvP (69.39%)
Sea reminds me a bit of Stork. The superb skill, but choking when it matters.
Though the difference is that Sea does it in the 16th round while Stork makes it to the finals.
Win ratios don't matter when you play Stork. If he brings his A-game or another of his brilliant tailored build orders he can beat anyone and he's shown it many many times.
So without the golds he's still proven that he "could" have won them. That his skill level is there. That you never can count him out.
That and cell phone games.
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This thread is outrages! Stork belongs there more than any other Protoss including Bisu.
Storku >all
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Whkze.jpg)
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We need a more modern phrase, though. I think fantasy, if he isn't a superstar yet, is the best player right now. So, it should be TaekBangLeeSsangLaden!
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On May 23 2012 07:44 scissorhands wrote:
Let's just say any nickname that uses a name from the actual game is pretty lame and not creative.
Zergbong was a freaking awesome name!
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EPT
