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On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 19:32 Morfildur wrote:On May 21 2012 18:45 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 21 2012 18:24 Morfildur wrote:On May 21 2012 18:18 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 21 2012 18:02 Morfildur wrote:On May 21 2012 13:53 BrosephBrostar wrote:On May 21 2012 13:32 naux wrote:On May 21 2012 13:26 BrosephBrostar wrote:On May 21 2012 13:23 ninini wrote:
[quote]
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors. But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything. SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form. Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game... Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive. BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL. They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely? Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out. Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career? I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers. It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer. Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players. Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely. Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players. The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two. If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
How long do you think would they continue to play BW? Forever? In that case you are living in a dream land. BW is dying and SC2 has only little to do with it, BW managed to do that all by itself.
As for your second point, SC2 players are still improving rapidly - the players of today could beat themselves from 3 month ago 10:0 without breaking a sweat - and they will continue to do so, which means the gap between new SC2 players and SC2 pros will get bigger and bigger. The cap doesn't even matter, it won't get reached any time soon in either game.
Yes, BW pros are amazing at BW... but even a month after the switch they aren't even remotely close to SC2 pros and will need a lot of time to catch up. If they wouldn't switch now they would later need a lot more time to close that growing gap to a point where it can take too much time to be worth the effort.
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
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I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
VODs of my English restream with Pokebunny are now up on my youtube channel. I've put them into playlists with anti-spoiler VODs and there is also a spoiler-free VOD post in my PL commentary thread. Thanks to everyone who watched it live!
From now on, I will be casting the regular season matches at a more European-friendly time. This means they will be rebroadcasts from VODs rather than live, but it also means you won't have to wake up at ridiculous hours to watch! These rebroadcasts will be in the TL calendar and the first one is tonight at 19:00 GMT (+00:00). Please see my PL commentary thread for more details.
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On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote:
I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
That would be so awesome. But to be honest, the only sc2 match up I really like is z v t. So maybe, the "god" of sc2 nestea against the "god" of bw flash? That would make me cum in my pants.
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On May 21 2012 20:56 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote:On May 21 2012 19:32 Morfildur wrote:On May 21 2012 18:45 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 21 2012 18:24 Morfildur wrote:On May 21 2012 18:18 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 21 2012 18:02 Morfildur wrote:On May 21 2012 13:53 BrosephBrostar wrote:On May 21 2012 13:32 naux wrote:On May 21 2012 13:26 BrosephBrostar wrote:
[quote]
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything. SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form. Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game... Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive. BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL. They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely? Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out. Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career? I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers. It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer. Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players. Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely. Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players. The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two. If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally. How long do you think would they continue to play BW? Forever? In that case you are living in a dream land. BW is dying and SC2 has only little to do with it, BW managed to do that all by itself. As for your second point, SC2 players are still improving rapidly - the players of today could beat themselves from 3 month ago 10:0 without breaking a sweat - and they will continue to do so, which means the gap between new SC2 players and SC2 pros will get bigger and bigger. The cap doesn't even matter, it won't get reached any time soon in either game. Yes, BW pros are amazing at BW... but even a month after the switch they aren't even remotely close to SC2 pros and will need a lot of time to catch up. If they wouldn't switch now they would later need a lot more time to close that growing gap to a point where it can take too much time to be worth the effort. Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
Way to break some one's dreams friend the whole shenanigan all started from within us . Savior match fixing scandal and the destruction from within the proleague because young and upcoming stars who pulled viewers and fandom all were involved with the scandal . On top of that blizzard destroying our scene by suing poorly funded mbc game for broadcasting broodwar . As a matter of fact blizzard is one of the greater evil in this whole dark tale of doom and despair that is happening right now .
I haven't seen a game company that destroys it's flagship game just to promote it's another latest game like starcraft . Take a look at how ID handle it's old school game and it's quake franchise they don't go around screwing people for broadcasting and advertising your game which has generated popularity and monetary income for years .
As for your second point, SC2 players are still improving rapidly - the players of today could beat themselves from 3 month ago 10:0 without breaking a sweat - and they will continue to do so, which means the gap between new SC2 players and SC2 pros will get bigger and bigger. The cap doesn't even matter, it won't get reached any time soon in either game.
Well I don't see the point of this, you play the game longer you become better at it . If I look back at my broodwar journey I was a freaking noob when I started playing bw in 2008 and now I am a D+ terran . The question will I destroy the me in 2008 easily ? Obviously yes. I don't know the gap between sc2 players are getting bigger or not for what I know that is if the foreigners don't do something about their skills vigorously our friends from korea will repeat history once again and I welcome that .
Yes, BW pros are amazing at BW... but even a month after the switch they aren't even remotely close to SC2 pros and will need a lot of time to catch up. If they wouldn't switch now they would later need a lot more time to close that growing gap to a point where it can take too much time to be worth the effort.
Only sc2 fans who watch bw at a very late stage would want bw pro's to play sc2 right now and mostly if you ask any bw fans which would they prefer seeing their pro play bw or sc2 ? They will definitely choose the former one and I also would have done the same thing .
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
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On May 21 2012 22:36 Sawamura wrote:
(...snip...)
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Isn't there a Kespa/MLG partnership? ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336693 )
I at least hope that the BW->SC2 pros will compete at foreign tournaments at some point, too, where they will definitely meet the Code S champions. Just imagine... Flash vs Boxer in MLG Grand Finals in front of a crowd of 20'000 (or however many MLG can attract) people. Maybe even with BW rematch 
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On May 21 2012 23:23 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:36 Sawamura wrote:
(...snip...)
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players. Isn't there a Kespa/MLG partnership? ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336693 ) I at least hope that the BW->SC2 pros will compete at foreign tournaments at some point, too, where they will definitely meet the Code S champions. Just imagine... Flash vs Boxer in MLG Grand Finals in front of a crowd of 20'000 (or however many MLG can attract) people. Maybe even with BW rematch
The partnership are mostly like show matches between the bw teams playing sc2 rather than competing directly with gsl skilled players . No need to imagine the last time they did Yellow v Boxer hype match it was terrible because yellow was pretty much new to the game . I don't really care about how many crowds or what MLG does for the game right now because in the end it's got nothing to do with broodwar.
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On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote:
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW.
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GSL players are progammers?
I mean Do they have a license?
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On May 21 2012 23:47 Darkong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote:
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW.
Blizzard sued OGN and MBC for broadcasting BW, and called it a 'illegal leagues'. What sponsors would want to sponsor something like that? Even the company that made the game despises e-sports. The Viewer Number for BW have only started to decline because of the lack of leagues. OSLs taking too slow to start up, failure to find sponsors and the law of not being able to play Battle.net clouded over Korea. Then you got SC2 which even has LESS viewer than BW. Now Kespa is taking a big gamble in SC2, if it succeed, maybe it would rejuvenate the interest in RTS again. If it fails, then RTS gaming is essentially over because Blizzard will have full monopoly over the market and their ability to produce original and creative games is no where up to to par with its peak. Plus with the release of the next WoW expansion, a new MMO, and D3 for patching, their attention is dispersed toward those.
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On May 21 2012 20:29 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:27 ninini wrote:On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote:
It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC. SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch. Is this really reported in the Korean media? Because it kind of doesn't make sense. For one thing, the big sponsorships for kespa teams right now are Korean-centric. Samsung is the only company among the big sponsors that really benefit from an international scene. Everyone else, SK Telecom, STX, Woongjin, etc. would not make any money from some random guy in the US knowing their brand. Great, I know Woongjin make great rice cookers, and I can get nice cell phone service from SKTelecom. And unless I decide to live in Korea for whatever reason, I'll never spend a dime on either company. In addition, OGN is a TV company. Yes, I know. There's internet streaming and everything, but OGN makes a lot of its money selling advertising space. And that money is going to go down if TV viewership goes down. Sure, they might make some of that back with foreign advertising of some kind. But it would certainly require some out of the box thinking and creating an infrastructure to attract fans and sponsors. Basically they're giving up certain money for uncertain money. If Korean fans don't want SC2, then Kespa is looking at losing most of its current sponsors. And they'd have to find new ones. Unless the well is dry for BW right now, this is a huge risk they have to take.
I wouldn't look at team sponsors, since those are relatively stable, although the disbanding of Fox, Oz, and Heroes did weaken the scene.
However, event sponsors seem to be the main reason for this entire SC2 gamble. KeSPA/OGN just has a hard time looking for event sponsors for OSL and Proleague since a lot of companies are reluctant due to match fixing and the IP rights debacle. Consequently, they had to rely on re-using Korean Air via a subsidiary of the company in the form of Jin Air, and now they are using Tving which I heard is part of CJ Group and not really an external sponsor. Plus, Proleague is currently sponsored by SK Planet, which is an internal subsidiary of SK Telecom instead of an external company.
So I think KeSPA is gambling on switching to SC2 to alleviate this drought of event sponsors, possibly getting some international company or a Korean company seeking international attention to sponsor SC2 events.
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On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote:
GSL players are progammers?
I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
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On May 22 2012 01:33 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote:
GSL players are progammers?
I mean Do they have a license? I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
That post could've said
"I'm not sure, but I don't think they have progaming licences in SC2"
Which would've been correct without making you condescending jerk.
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On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote:
GSL players are progammers?
I mean Do they have a license?
They are pro-gamers, because they game professionally, but they don't have licenses. In fact, I believe all the GOM players had their KeSPA licenses revoked.
On May 21 2012 22:36 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day? Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Of the games I saw, Jaedong is actually legitimately bad in SC2. Flash was enh at best. But most of the SC2 I saw in proleague wasn't just sub-GSL level, is was fucking comical. The hero[join] game was hilarious, but it was similarly kind of embarrassing. ProLeague really can't get a reputation for bronze-league SC2, but I'm seeing a lot of really weird and wacky not very good games.
Savior match fixing scandal and the destruction from within the proleague because young and upcoming stars who pulled viewers and fandom all were involved with the scandal .
This actually is a major and not-mentioned-enough deal. I walked away from BW for about two years, and I came back, and it's kind of the same names. Soulkey is new (to me, at least), but Fantasy, JangBi, Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong...they were all the top players in 2009 and they're all the top players in 2012
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:Bonjwa2.png&filetimestamp=20120215022823
Look at this for a moment. Compare Flash to the other Bonjwas. It's so much bigger and longer, and that graph doesn't even include the 13-game winning streak in the last season of Proleague. You can actually make the argument at this point that Flash has surpassed the title of Bonjwa altogether. In the time Flash has been Bonjwa, Nada rose, Nada fell, there was a period with no really dominant player, Oov rove, and Oov fell. That's insane.
On May 22 2012 00:20 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 23:47 Darkong wrote:On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote:
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW. Blizzard sued OGN and MBC for broadcasting BW, and called it a 'illegal leagues'. What sponsors would want to sponsor something like that? Even the company that made the game despises e-sports. The Viewer Number for BW have only started to decline because of the lack of leagues. OSLs taking too slow to start up, failure to find sponsors and the law of not being able to play Battle.net clouded over Korea. Then you got SC2 which even has LESS viewer than BW. Now Kespa is taking a big gamble in SC2, if it succeed, maybe it would rejuvenate the interest in RTS again.
The problem is that the target audience for PL can't play SC2 at all thanks to KeSPA lobbying to have the game rated 18+.
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On May 22 2012 01:33 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote:
GSL players are progammers?
I mean Do they have a license? I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
You're right, in SC2 there is no equivilant to KeSPA or the licence system that BW seems to operate.
If you ask me it's better that way, as it means players are freer to basically do whatever they want without a governing body standing overhead dictating limitations. On the downside though, there's less regulation - and whilst that hasn't come around to bite anyone yet, it may do in future.
Whilst from watching PL yesterday the better organisation of the BW team structure was apparent to me (as a good thing), I am quite happy with how SC2 is run in the broad sense right now. I don't know an awful lot about BW at all (PL yesterday was my first time watching it), but all I can say is that things as they are in the SC2 scene are ok right now in my opinion. My big fear has always been, and remains, that KeSPA's introduction into the scene will change that - I hope it's not the case.
As to the topic of the thread, watching PL yesterday was definately an interesting experience. Admittedly, I found the BW sets quite hard to get into coming from a solely SC2 background - though I hope that'll change in the coming weeks as I watch more - due to the fact that the game is so different. Found it much slower, ponderous, and less "flash in the pan", though I can see some of the appeal to that kind of game. Definately don't know enough to begin judging the quality of the games though, so I'll defer to the judgement of those more knowedgable than I on that one
Re: the SC2, I must admit I was disappointed. With a few exceptions (Jangbi, Lizzy and Effort) the standard of play on show was incredibly poor (and even those three I singled out weren't much better). I was all hyped up to see what the big deal is over the likes of Jaedong and Flash, but Jaedong looked like the worst Zerg I've ever seen play SC2 and Flash got stomped pretty hard too...
Not that that's their fault though. KeSPA should have been well aware what the skill levels were at right now, and should not have made this transition just yet as a result. Not only did it make SC2 look bad yesterday, it made both the gamers and the tournament look bad too. Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
I hope things improve in the coming weeks. As it is, I worry very much for the standard of play that is going to be on show in the KeSPA tournament at MLG in two weeks time...
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 01:54 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote:
GSL players are progammers?
I mean Do they have a license? They are pro-gamers, because they game professionally, but they don't have licenses. In fact, I believe all the GOM players had their KeSPA licenses revoked. Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:36 Sawamura wrote:Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day? Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players. Of the games I saw, Jaedong is actually legitimately bad in SC2. Flash was enh at best. But most of the SC2 I saw in proleague wasn't just sub-GSL level, is was fucking comical. The hero[join] game was hilarious, but it was similarly kind of embarrassing. ProLeague really can't get a reputation for bronze-league SC2, but I'm seeing a lot of really weird and wacky not very good games. Show nested quote +Savior match fixing scandal and the destruction from within the proleague because young and upcoming stars who pulled viewers and fandom all were involved with the scandal . This actually is a major and not-mentioned-enough deal. I walked away from BW for about two years, and I came back, and it's kind of the same names. Soulkey is new (to me, at least), but Fantasy, JangBi, Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong...they were all the top players in 2009 and they're all the top players in 2012 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:Bonjwa2.png&filetimestamp=20120215022823Look at this for a moment. Compare Flash to the other Bonjwas. It's so much bigger and longer, and that graph doesn't even include the 13-game winning streak in the last season of Proleague. You can actually make the argument at this point that Flash has surpassed the title of Bonjwa altogether. In the time Flash has been Bonjwa, Nada rose, Nada fell, there was a period with no really dominant player, Oov rove, and Oov fell. That's insane. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 00:20 Xiphos wrote:On May 21 2012 23:47 Darkong wrote:On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote:
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW. Blizzard sued OGN and MBC for broadcasting BW, and called it a 'illegal leagues'. What sponsors would want to sponsor something like that? Even the company that made the game despises e-sports. The Viewer Number for BW have only started to decline because of the lack of leagues. OSLs taking too slow to start up, failure to find sponsors and the law of not being able to play Battle.net clouded over Korea. Then you got SC2 which even has LESS viewer than BW. Now Kespa is taking a big gamble in SC2, if it succeed, maybe it would rejuvenate the interest in RTS again. The problem is that the target audience for PL can't play SC2 at all thanks to KeSPA lobbying to have the game rated 18+.
I didn't know about SC2 being rated M in SK. Well looks like the results would be very pessimistic. Idk what to think about the contempory standing.
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On May 21 2012 22:35 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote:
I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players. That would be so awesome. But to be honest, the only sc2 match up I really like is z v t. So maybe, the "god" of sc2 nestea against the "god" of bw flash? That would make me cum in my pants.
well zvt in bw also has a lot more potential for "epic" so i kinda understand
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On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote:
I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
Later on maybe when the Kespa players have switched better. Currently this would be onesided BW players destroy SC2 player in BW and SC2 players destroy BW players in SC2. Nobody would profit from it.
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On May 21 2012 19:08 Ciryandor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:04 densha wrote:On May 21 2012 15:50 Shrewmy wrote:On May 21 2012 15:38 eeniebear wrote:On May 21 2012 11:17 ninini wrote:On May 21 2012 10:36 coolcor wrote:On May 21 2012 10:27 ninini wrote:On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote:
It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC. SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch. I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=142288And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular? The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending. This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again. Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure. I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out. Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle. Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way. I can attest to that. I find the action in SC2 much easier to follow. I'm sure this has to do with playing the game on 1v1 ladder for the last two years and watching every GSL + other tournies since then too. When I watch BW I really don't know how a battle will turn out because I'm not used to watching it. I honestly think BW is more difficult to follow because in certain situations it's hard to tell what's happening. For example, I understand the awesomeness of BW muta micro, but as a spectator it really sucks not knowing how many mutas someone has. I just feel lost until the final battle and it's like "oh, I guess that guy had more mutas after all". Another example is Psi Storm is kind of awkward in it's animation and it's hard to get a feel for it's true AOE range. Another example is, as far as I can tell, observers can't select more than one unit at a time? Therefore the spectator can only see one unit's health bars at any time, which is a step backwards when you're used to seeing multiple units' health bars during an SC2 battle. Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think observers can see what's upgrading during the game which makes me feel really lost not knowing what's happening. Same thing for dropships - it doesn't seem you know what's inside unless you see it load or unload. I'm sure long-time BW fans are really used to those things, but I don't understand how that should be easier for me as a new BW fan when compared to SC2? The appeal of BW is that the lack of complete information makes certain actions even more amazing; or certain problems even more glaring. Mutas - you can tell by the color of the shadow in a muta clump how much mutas each one has, the darker the shadow, the more mutas in it; and green goo from exploding Scourge = hits. What having only one unit's bars and selection do is give you the spectator experience of... "Are those marines all in the red because of Plague and thus easily killed by Zerglings?" "Is that Dragoon ball fresh, or is it vulnerable to massed tank fire?" "How much troops does he have in that dropship group? Will it be enough to break the tank line?" "Will he have storms finished in time to stop this Hydrabust?" and for upgrades in buildings: "Will Siege finish in time before the Dragoons pop that bunker/are in enough numbers they can gamble on killing that first Siege Tank/Does the Terran have Spider Mines to stop this DT rush?" That uncertainty is part of what makes BW watching good; because we don't know whether BeSt has another 20 zealots queued up to swarm a Terran's tank push, or if Stork already finished researching Dragoon range or even if Jaedong already finished researching Lurkers to fend off the bio push at his third; or even if Horang2 still has Scarab ammo for his Reaver. Contrast that to SC2, where seeing the production tab means you immediately know that MKP has 13 marines in production in addition to those he just stimmed so they could catch up to his push, or that Thermal Lance is still not complete, but there are already six Vikings to hit those two Collosi. This removes potential excitement from the game that BW was able to provide in spades.
That's understandable, but I don't think it makes it easier on someone that's primarily an SC2 fan who is used to that kind of information.
I would argue as well that having so much information leads to it's own type of intensity. For example, watching the final few seconds of a crucial upgrade count-down, the very upgrade needed to survive, while (for example) that player is being attacked, can be really intense. A common example too is knowing that a Protoss has *just* started their mothership as the Zerg moves out with infester/broodlord. Will the zerg take full advantage of his timing? How much damage can be done? How will the Protoss maneuver his army? Can he delay the Zerg or distract him?
Again, I do think what you said makes sense and I can say I've experienced such a thing in SC2 so I can relate:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntsSzSMT3bA
Very intense moment, a completely unknown situation (mass BC/ghost in TvP). I (the casters and audience, too) were pretty unaware of the mothership flanking and of the amount of Void Rays the Protoss had. This definitely made for a really amazing moment. If BW is full of moments like these, I see your point!
With that said, I would say that SC2 doesn't necessarily remove excitement, it just shifts the excitement to a different perspective.
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On May 21 2012 20:28 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 18:45 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I think you're skipping over the key point here. BW wasn't in decline because everyone was tired of BW, they were over with 1v1 strategy games in general. Switching from one game to a less popular game in the same genre is just confusing. Source? I'd really be curious to read that because having spent some time studying the situation, I NEVER EVER read anything about that .... so got any proof or is it just fanboy's speculation?
There was an interview with one of the OGN people. According to him the 3 biggest reasons for the decline of BW were the matchfixing scandal, the Blizzard lawsuit, and shift of interest towards mmos. I don't have the link but it was posted here so you should be able to find it if you look.
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