On May 10 2012 16:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I really need to know how we should make LR threads to work though.
I've heard more than one person (a mod included I think) say that they should be separate Very interested to see how this all pans out. Woonjin fighting!
It probably makes more sense to separate them. Not to mention it might (probably futile attempt) to split up the sc2 fans and the BW fans to deter arguments.
On May 10 2012 16:16 sCCrooked wrote: It probably makes more sense to separate them. Not to mention it might (probably futile attempt) to split up the sc2 fans and the BW fans to deter arguments.
I still feel that this is the most horrible thing to happen to proleague... The only thing that gives me hope is that if people who have only seen SC2 watch some of the BW games they might enjoy it and watch more, but even a rise in viewers will probably not stop BW from dying out over a span of this one season or maybe a second one.
Here's to hoping this madness will not continue for more seasons, but instead revert back to only BW.
SKT and T8 should be a great match. Should have been KT and ACE instead of KT and CJ.
BW forums strikes me as the place for these threads. The game is SC2 but the real defining character of these games is the players involved and the isolated nature of the organization. It's not like say hearing about Flash going alone to an MLG, it's a whole league conducted this way. There's something hallowed about seeing PL LR threads in the BW forums, whereas in the SC2 forums they might get swept away with everything else.
I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
On May 10 2012 16:16 sCCrooked wrote: It probably makes more sense to separate them. Not to mention it might (probably futile attempt) to split up the sc2 fans and the BW fans to deter arguments.
Doesn't make sense to split the fans, the change is happening if anything we should embrace it and what better time to start than now?
I just hope this won't be a total failure and that fans from both games can find some enjoyment in watching the other game. It would be kind of boring to only watch half the match.
Just imagine LoL being the only big "e-sport" left in Korea
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
Hmm... so me and my family are going to be in Korea(May 19-27) and I could only choose one between the OSL Ro16 week 2 day 1 and this. If you guys are in my position, which would you choose?
OSL - 4 games, I get to see Flash personally, not so crowded so I might get a seat and some camera exposure , pure BW, the quality of games might be good since at least the builds are prepared and not being experimented. PL - 20-28 games, I get to see ALL teams personally, might be too crowded at the beginning for us to be able to get a seat or even see the games while standing, BW and SC2, terrible format and game quality(maybe).
I can't decide. Choosing one makes me feel that I'm missing so much from the other one . Only if I could go to both...
On May 10 2012 16:58 NicksonReyes wrote: Hmm... so me and my family are going to be in Korea(May 19-27) and I could only choose one between the OSL Ro16 week 2 day 1 and this. If you guys are in my position, which would you choose?
OSL - 4 games, I get to see Flash personally, not so crowded so I might get a seat and some camera exposure , pure BW, the quality of games might be good since at least the builds are prepared and not being experimented. PL - 20-28 games, I get to see ALL teams personally, might be too crowded at the beginning for us to be able to get a seat or even see the games while standing, BW and SC2, terrible format and game quality(maybe).
I can't decide. Choosing one makes me feel that I'm missing so much from the other one . Only if I could go to both...
Dude how is this even a decision.
If you are a massive Flash fan, go to the day where you are guaranteed to see him.
I'll get to see Flash on one(as well as the other 7 players), the entire KT roster on the other(as well as the other 7 teams). I waited really long for this time expecting to be able watch a day of OSL/MSL or a single PL match but now I have the chance to watch 4 matches. 8-12 BW games > 4 BW games. I don't know about you guys but this is a really tough once in a lifetime decision for me.
On May 10 2012 16:58 NicksonReyes wrote: Hmm... so me and my family are going to be in Korea(May 19-27) and I could only choose one between the OSL Ro16 week 2 day 1 and this. If you guys are in my position, which would you choose?
OSL - 4 games, I get to see Flash personally, not so crowded so I might get a seat and some camera exposure , pure BW, the quality of games might be good since at least the builds are prepared and not being experimented. PL - 20-28 games, I get to see ALL teams personally, might be too crowded at the beginning for us to be able to get a seat or even see the games while standing, BW and SC2, terrible format and game quality(maybe).
I can't decide. Choosing one makes me feel that I'm missing so much from the other one . Only if I could go to both...
If you have absolutely zero interest in sc2 then maybe the OSL, otherwise I'd say the PL. The quality of games would be relatively similar I imagine, but you get to see a ton more and witness a pretty important event in esports.
Of course if you dislike sc2 then you'll probably be bored out of your brains for half the day, so that would suck. Depends how far the curiosity of seeing some of the heroes playing a totally new game would take you.
I don't really hate SC2(I'm, like, neutral) and I agree that the game quality might be similar which makes choosing harder. I don't think I'll be bored since I know some stuff about SC2 when I played it about a month after it was released and I'm watching the players I watched, hated and supported over the years playing it.
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
While I understand that some people will never accept the transition, I feel that it would be a massive shame if this were the case for a large number of spectators.
On May 10 2012 16:58 NicksonReyes wrote: Hmm... so me and my family are going to be in Korea(May 19-27) and I could only choose one between the OSL Ro16 week 2 day 1 and this. If you guys are in my position, which would you choose?
OSL - 4 games, I get to see Flash personally, not so crowded so I might get a seat and some camera exposure , pure BW, the quality of games might be good since at least the builds are prepared and not being experimented. PL - 20-28 games, I get to see ALL teams personally, might be too crowded at the beginning for us to be able to get a seat or even see the games while standing, BW and SC2, terrible format and game quality(maybe).
I can't decide. Choosing one makes me feel that I'm missing so much from the other one . Only if I could go to both...
If you have absolutely zero interest in sc2 then maybe the OSL, otherwise I'd say the PL. The quality of games would be relatively similar I imagine, but you get to see a ton more and witness a pretty important event in esports.
Of course if you dislike sc2 then you'll probably be bored out of your brains for half the day, so that would suck. Depends how far the curiosity of seeing some of the heroes playing a totally new game would take you.
On May 10 2012 16:58 NicksonReyes wrote: Hmm... so me and my family are going to be in Korea(May 19-27) and I could only choose one between the OSL Ro16 week 2 day 1 and this. If you guys are in my position, which would you choose?
OSL - 4 games, I get to see Flash personally, not so crowded so I might get a seat and some camera exposure , pure BW, the quality of games might be good since at least the builds are prepared and not being experimented. PL - 20-28 games, I get to see ALL teams personally, might be too crowded at the beginning for us to be able to get a seat or even see the games while standing, BW and SC2, terrible format and game quality(maybe).
I can't decide. Choosing one makes me feel that I'm missing so much from the other one . Only if I could go to both...
Dude how is this even a decision.
If you are a massive Flash fan, go to the day where you are guaranteed to see him.
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
While I understand that some people will never accept the transition, I feel that it would be a massive shame if this were the case for a large number of spectators.
shame why? they probably feel that they have been betrayed , i know i do, so that would make perfect sense
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
While I understand that some people will never accept the transition, I feel that it would be a massive shame if this were the case for a large number of spectators.
shame why? they probably feel that they have been betrayed , i know i do, so that would make perfect sense
Mainly because it won't help BW, instead just harm what they are trying to build for the future in sc2. I care about starcraft 2 though and I understand you probably don't, so your viewpoint is fair enough.
Not only the LR issue, there is also the Liquibet issue! Maybe double-list them? Or possibly just keep it in the BW liquibets until the league is 100% SC2?
Speaking of liquibets, this has to be the most unpredictable set of matches to pick of all time. Haven't seen any of these guys play a single game of SC2, at best we can only go off of rumors and pre-match boasting, lol.
it sucks that broodwar is coming to an end but it wasn't sc2 fault. They are trying to build with what they had left. Seriously losing all these sponsors and a whole individual tournament was already spelling a end to broodwar. They are just looking toward the future to a similar game. I rather have that than LoL is what is left of esports in korea. I will be optimistic and watch the players i been rooting for try to make a similar game as exciting. I hope to see a similar thread in the SC2 section and maybe a introduction to these teams so fans can get behind them for the transition
On May 10 2012 17:13 geno wrote: Not only the LR issue, there is also the Liquibet issue! Maybe double-list them? Or possibly just keep it in the BW liquibets until the league is 100% SC2?
Speaking of liquibets, this has to be the most unpredictable set of matches to pick of all time. Haven't seen any of these guys play a single game of SC2, at best we can only go off of rumors and pre-match boasting, lol.
I hope SKT1 and T8 have a gentlemen's agreement and tell Bisu and Jaedong to play the first televised Proleague SC2 game of all-time.
The fact that the two games are completely separate completely solves the problem of lr, having two separate threads causes no problem and makes boycotting one game easier, which is pretty good.
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
While I understand that some people will never accept the transition, I feel that it would be a massive shame if this were the case for a large number of spectators.
shame why? they probably feel that they have been betrayed , i know i do, so that would make perfect sense
Mainly because it won't help BW, instead just harm what they are trying to build for the future in sc2. I care about starcraft 2 though and I understand you probably don't, so your viewpoint is fair enough.
i do think that in the situation that we are now there is no win/win situation, i dont care about sc2,even if jaedong plays it i wont watch, and if the fully transition to sc2 is already going to go anyway after this season, then that is the logic response, you either help bw hurting sc2 or you dont help bw(im talking about pro scene), because sc2 in order to succeed they must kill bw(or at least have a chance to), so there is no other thing to watch, if you give the people both they will probably go all the way with bw(at least koreans), so i actually hope they leave when the sc2 games are being played, so maybe kespa will think better about the transition, which i think its unlikely, but well, its the least we can do.
On May 10 2012 17:13 geno wrote: Not only the LR issue, there is also the Liquibet issue! Maybe double-list them? Or possibly just keep it in the BW liquibets until the league is 100% SC2?
Speaking of liquibets, this has to be the most unpredictable set of matches to pick of all time. Haven't seen any of these guys play a single game of SC2, at best we can only go off of rumors and pre-match boasting, lol.
I hope SKT1 and T8 have a gentlemen's agreement and tell Bisu and Jaedong to play the first televised Proleague SC2 game of all-time.
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
it will be bad, and no its not the other game that is the case its the fact that the game that you are watching will be of terrible quality.
Two LR threads in their respective subforums since it results in tasteful discussion, not a blatant BW vs SC2 thread that it can and will eventually turn to.
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
That seems so unfair to the players themselves who have no control over the situation. I understand hating this transition and wanting to protest it but that feels like a really unfortunate way to do it. It would certainly get attention but it'd probably also make the players feel even worse about something they can't change. I'd feel like a huge dick walking out on a team and players I supported, as if their existence is invalid if they aren't playing BW. That said I respect people's right to show their rejection of this transition however they want, as long as it's done respectfully.
I do agree that separate LR threads will be best but I don't think any sort of spill over into the BW one will be terrible. It's just my experience but you guys were pretty awesome to me when I was just flailing around in LR threads trying to understand wtf was going on in regards to both the game and scene lore etc etc. As long as sc2 fans come over with respectful curiosity it doesn't have to be a clusterfuck.
While this is sort of exciting for me I wish it wasn't happening. I could have happily lived with two separate game scenes forever.
Nobody has a problem with the players, it's a problem with sponsors and co. I sure hope that if people who want to boycott are a majority they go for it. In the end, fans have some power too (or at least koreans), and they should make themselves heard.
On May 10 2012 18:19 MCXD wrote: I actually think BW fan turning off the SC2 games, and for that matter, SC2 fans refusing to watch BW games, to prove a point is beyond childish.
sometimes i channel surf when there are addvertisments.
I guess you don't like us SC2 fans over here, but I will risk it, as this is probalby the thread where people actually know something.
Do you know if there would be official english commentary? I have never watched BW live, because of the lack thereof and this would be a perfect (not to mention last) chance to mitigate it. Also, do you know if the streams will be easily accessible to foreigners (unlike all of BW up to know, where sophisticated tutorials to navigate korean pages, or illegal restreams, are required?).
12:14 KST (+09:00): And we're done, with the final set of Q&A questions. Thanks for tuning in! Thanks kimbilly, you can follow him @kimbillly (three L's).
One final note from kimbillly: There won't be global broadcasts ready for opening day, but they'll start soon after!
If there is enough demand, I can try and cast the games myself until OGN get their English broadcast up (as I have somewhat okay knowledge of both games).
On May 10 2012 17:13 geno wrote: Not only the LR issue, there is also the Liquibet issue! Maybe double-list them? Or possibly just keep it in the BW liquibets until the league is 100% SC2?
Speaking of liquibets, this has to be the most unpredictable set of matches to pick of all time. Haven't seen any of these guys play a single game of SC2, at best we can only go off of rumors and pre-match boasting, lol.
I hope SKT1 and T8 have a gentlemen's agreement and tell Bisu and Jaedong to play the first televised Proleague SC2 game of all-time.
can someone confirm whether it is, A: Each set is BO3 B: Set 1-3 in itself is a BW BO3 where if one team wins Sets 1-2 then Set 3 is voided but the scheduled players is still considered to have "played" BW. thanks
I still cannot believe that they decided to play all of the matches the first day.
This will be a trial by fire, I suppose. I really hope that we can get some good "unofficial" casting until their global broadcast is ready too. Although asking one group of people to do all of those games is just crazy hahaha.
8 hours is pretty optimistic for 16-28 games to be played. A few TvTs in there, a few uncommonly long games, count the commercial breaks and instant replays, and it can go up to 12 hours easily.
Just looking at these map lists is so surreal. Like, is my mind broken, what is this.
can someone confirm whether it is, A: Each set is BO3 B: Set 1-3 in itself is a BW BO3 where if one team wins Sets 1-2 then Set 3 is voided but the scheduled players is still considered to have "played" BW. thanks
B is correct. That's why they announce the 3rd pick even if he doesn't play. Next time they want to use him in another match, it has to be for the other kind of game (BW/SC2). And so on, alternating.
On May 10 2012 16:24 Ideas wrote: i dont want to watch
it's so sad becuase if this was normal proleague I would of been so fucking pumped to have a whole day of BW to watch :\
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
Also, I support the idea of separate threads.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
On May 10 2012 16:24 Ideas wrote: i dont want to watch
it's so sad becuase if this was normal proleague I would of been so fucking pumped to have a whole day of BW to watch :\
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
Also, I support the idea of separate threads.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
it will be bad, and no its not the other game that is the case its the fact that the game that you are watching will be of terrible quality.
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
you do realize I watch both SC2 and BW right?
I'm just being realistic that when players need to practice 2 games at the same time, the quality of games will be terrible, I've already seen the effect of it so far so I'm not wrong.
you are the one being hateful and ignorant of obvious facts.
I didn't even say that I wouldn't watch either, I will watch to support my team, but thats the only thing I'm running on going into this season.
On May 10 2012 16:24 Ideas wrote: i dont want to watch
it's so sad becuase if this was normal proleague I would of been so fucking pumped to have a whole day of BW to watch :\
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
Also, I support the idea of separate threads.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
On May 10 2012 17:31 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
it will be bad, and no its not the other game that is the case its the fact that the game that you are watching will be of terrible quality.
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
you do realize I watch both SC2 and BW right?
I'm just being realistic that when players need to practice 2 games at the same time, the quality of games will be terrible, I've already seen the effect of it so far so I'm not wrong.
you are the one being hateful and ignorant of obvious facts.
upon rereading of your comment i didn't understand it properly , i apologise, i have removed it.
edit: i dont even think i meant to put it in, just because it was nested after windsupernova's comment.
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
it will be bad, and no its not the other game that is the case its the fact that the game that you are watching will be of terrible quality.
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
honestly, if kespa/blizzard wasn't force-feeding long-time bw fans something that honestly has nothing to do with bw except for its name, we wouldn't really be acting like this.
kespa is basically just taking advantage of our long-time ties to the game and its pros to garner viewership for its new-found toy from which they wish to make a profit. and by this, i'm referring to the whole bw-sc2 hybrid fiasco.
not only is kespa essentially forcing bw fans to watch something they aren't interested in (by taking advantage of our ties to the previous bw scene), but they're achieving this through a method that'll ultimately ruin the quality of both bw and sc2 games since pros can no longer exert their utmost effort into any one game.
i'd rather watch the current highest-level sc2 (if only bw is not an option) than a combination of half-assed sc2 and bw but i know i'll tune in to watch jaedong/stork/flash/bisu/fantasy/etc. playing sc2 nevertheless b/c of how much of an emotional connection i have to these players, as we all do. and kespa knows this oh so well and they're willing to severely hurt the quality of proleague so that they can gain viewership and sponsors ($$$)
this is like the scenario where you know a hot girl is hitting on you only for your status/money but you're still going to play along with it b/c physical attractiveness isn't so easy to simply turn down.
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
IMHO you fail understand the key concept of why its called "the other game". There has been a huge number of threads talking about what BW fans think of sc2 and a lot of SC2 fans arguing for esports, for this, for that and whatever people want to argue, so we should not be doing this here again. Im just saying that before calling people ignorants and other stuff you should understand fully why such comments exist in the first place. I watch both games and I dont mind watching SC2 players play SC2...but having BW die to have more SC2 doesnt serve any purpose other than having more sc2. While having more sc2 isn't bad in my eyes, having more sc2 over BW isn't a good thing. I ended up almost going there but tried to only state my opinion in a polite way without entering the argument about support or no support. I hope this doesn't steer people off topic
Now on topic. Im sad CJ plays so "early". Im probably not going to be able to wake up early enough to watch those games damn you schedule people.
EDIT: And if a vote should occur, I vote for two threads. In the long run it wont matter since people that make some LR threads unreadable will just jump from one to the other but at least for now I hope to be in a LR with familiar faces to BW when watching BW games without every other post being about cheese, imba, allins, scrub, noob, you dont know the game, this is superior to that, get of our game, etc (note that I tried to include bad posts from both sections).
On May 10 2012 19:50 pStar wrote: Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
Well here it comes again. SC2 will improve..lol. SC2 is flawed beyond what they could improve with an expansion. The main flaw of SC2 is the engine, and they will never change that. Whether you agree with this is up to you, but you need to understand that in our view SC2 will never be able to replace BW, and for completely logical reasons.
On May 10 2012 16:24 Ideas wrote: i dont want to watch
it's so sad becuase if this was normal proleague I would of been so fucking pumped to have a whole day of BW to watch :\
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
Also, I support the idea of separate threads.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
On May 10 2012 17:31 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
it will be bad, and no its not the other game that is the case its the fact that the game that you are watching will be of terrible quality.
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
honestly, if kespa/blizzard wasn't force-feeding long-time bw fans something that honestly has nothing to do with bw except for its name, we wouldn't really be acting like this.
kespa is basically just taking advantage of our long-time ties to the game and its pros to garner viewership for its new-found toy from which they wish to make a profit. and by this, i'm referring to the whole bw-sc2 hybrid fiasco.
not only is kespa essentially forcing bw fans to watch something they aren't interested in (by taking advantage of our ties to the previous bw scene), but they're achieving this through a method that'll ultimately ruin the quality of both bw and sc2 games since pros can no longer exert their utmost effort into any one game.
i'd rather watch the current highest-level sc2 (if only bw is not an option) than a combination of half-assed sc2 and bw but i know i'll tune in to watch jaedong/stork/flash/bisu/fantasy/etc. playing sc2 nevertheless b/c of how much of an emotional connection i have to these players, as we all do. and kespa knows this oh so well and they're willing to severely hurt the quality of proleague so that they can gain viewership and sponsors ($$$)
this is like the scenario where you know a hot girl is hitting on you only for your status/money but you're still going to play along with it b/c physical attractiveness isn't so easy to simply turn down.
I'm sure KeSPA would rather a thriving BW scene then what we've got ahead of us, but without sponsors, that isn't possible. They need to switch to something or slowly collapse, it's that simple. Even though this mock-up system we have for the next proleague seems like a farce to many, it was their only option to build a sustainable future. Do you feel you have been betrayed because you'd rather KeSPA fold over completely than seek prosperity in a new game?
Do people honestly feel like KeSPA had any other choice here? If I'm misinformed then I apologize
So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
On May 10 2012 19:50 pStar wrote: some of the quotes within this thread + Show Spoiler +
On May 10 2012 16:24 Ideas wrote: i dont want to watch
it's so sad becuase if this was normal proleague I would of been so fucking pumped to have a whole day of BW to watch :\
On May 10 2012 16:32 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I actually like the way they set up the format. This way, I can watch the first 3 games and be done, rather than being forced to watch sc2 if they interposed them. A bit disappointed the ace match goes to sc2 though.
Also, I support the idea of separate threads.
On May 10 2012 16:34 blade55555 wrote: Yay team 8 first! Looking forward to them the most because of jaedong . Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
On May 10 2012 16:51 Elroi wrote: I'm not going to watch the sc2 games. It would be awesome if people could just leave in protest or something.
On May 10 2012 17:26 Zera wrote: 8 hours of StarCraft? O.o, uh I mean 4 hours of StarCraft and 4 hours of something, anyway I should mark that day as occupied I think ^_^
On May 10 2012 17:30 windsupernova wrote: This might not be as bad lets try to stay positive. Worst case scenario you stop watching when the "other" game comes up
Just some of the quotes from in this thread. You people in this forum are honestly the most hateful and ignorant bunch of people that I have ever encountered. You are willing to actually destroy the live viewing numbers as well as the TV ratings by turning it off when "the other game" as you like to call it comes on. Do you know what age you seem like when you call it "the other game". Attitudes like this will kill the whole starcraft scene in Korea
I know that you may not like SC2 but have you ever considered that it might actually improve once your heroes come over and start to implement new strategies and techniques, not to mention the possibility of the entire game being changed in HoTS? We don;t sit in the SC2 forums and hate on BW because its an old game with terrible graphics and its outdated( not saying its any of these things, just saying that these are the arguments that could be used.)
I thought you might have even been excited to see some b-teamers make a name for themselves in the new game...
Complete bunch of short-termists. Tune in to both games, support the league, by supporting both games you support your game as without the viewing numbers and audience, then to be honest pro-league will be finished anyway.
I'm sorry if i caused offence but i needed to get this off my chest.
Well....... just to be clear I said "other game" because I didn't want to mention either SC2 or BW. I like both of them ......
Sorry If I sounded hateful my post was targetting both SC2 fans and BW fans
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
It's very cult-like :/. Guess it's also human to do so. I'm lucky that I can find enjoyment from both games.
while the korean audience may not like or receive sc2 as well. the fact is bw pros playing sc2 has the novelty factor and star power enough for the audience to overlook their negative views towards sc2 and not boycott or leave the studio when sc2 comes on.
On May 10 2012 20:39 OopsOopsBaby wrote: while the korean audience may not like or receive sc2 as well. the fact is bw pros playing sc2 has the novelty factor and star power enough for the audience to overlook their negative views towards sc2 and not boycott or leave the studio when sc2 comes on.
it doesnt hurt to have the chance of seeing some superstars play sc2
On May 10 2012 20:40 Vuk_91 wrote: I don`t understand,who is going to play those SC2 sets? Bw players like calm,fantasy,jaedong etc or some old SC2 players?
I think the same players will play both games in the match. So, if Fantasy goes out second for the BW set, he will have to go out second in the SC2 set, but anyone can come out for the ace match if it gets that far.
Is that correct or did I misunderstand?
Or is it just three players (not necessarily all the same or all different) for each set of games, then in order to qualify for playing you must have played the opposite game in your previous match?
On May 10 2012 20:40 Vuk_91 wrote: I don`t understand,who is going to play those SC2 sets? Bw players like calm,fantasy,jaedong etc or some old SC2 players?
BW players. But each one will have to play alternating BW-SC2-BW-SC2 as he gets picked throughout the season. So the worth of a player is equal to 50% BW skill + 50% SC2 skill, which may cause drastic changes in the team rosters. A-teamers may be demoted and B-teamers promoted.
On May 10 2012 20:40 Vuk_91 wrote: I don`t understand,who is going to play those SC2 sets? Bw players like calm,fantasy,jaedong etc or some old SC2 players?
I think the same players will play both games in the match. So, if Fantasy goes out second for the BW set, he will have to go out second in the SC2 set, but anyone can come out for the ace match if it gets that far.
Is that correct or did I misunderstand?
Or is it just three players (not necessarily all the same or all different) for each set of games, then in order to qualify for playing you must have played the opposite game in your previous match?
It's the latter. Each player can get picked only once in a match (before ace) - either for BW Bo3 or for SC2 Bo3; then next match they decide to pick him, it has to be for the other kind of Bo3.
On May 10 2012 20:40 Vuk_91 wrote: I don`t understand,who is going to play those SC2 sets? Bw players like calm,fantasy,jaedong etc or some old SC2 players?
I think the same players will play both games in the match. So, if Fantasy goes out second for the BW set, he will have to go out second in the SC2 set, but anyone can come out for the ace match if it gets that far.
Is that correct or did I misunderstand?
Exactly the opposite. If Fantasy plays BW set2 he will only be able to play again that day in the ace match. In his team's next game, he will need to play SC2 regardless of an Ace match appearence in day one.
Players will need to be scheduled to play both games in a rotating fashion, with ace match not making a SC2 appearence. The player will still have an appearence in BW or SC2 if he is set to play but the game isn't needed. ie CJ wins vs KT 2-0 and Hydra is the third player scheduled to play. He gets a BW appearence even tho he didn't ended up playing.
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
Welcome to the real life i guess. Its not really that different in any other competition be it video or real one or whatever. I know its hard to imagine some people here actually opening this site to sit in a tiny corner in BW forums and discuss things there and its unimaginable for many people, same way as its unimaginable for me to do many things yet i somehow muster my imagination and my brain cells to understand and if i cant i at least tolerate it, the free will.
To end it i do not understand why would someone unrelated to Brood War come here and lecture how people should act. You are not expected to come to unrelated to you person's funeral. Because there is no reason, unless there is something you could gain from it. And yes many SC2 people come here to gain the inheritance. Now how sad it is? Analogy is half-assed but imho serves the purpose, there are many things to gain from "BW death" for SC2 scene and for 1 BW elitits there are 100 SC2 people who turnish the last bits with their posting on this site. Respect the feelings of people no matter how wrong they are to your 3rd party perspective which in fact is in advantageous position.
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
So in other words, sc2 is a terrible landlord that evicts people from their homes?
On May 10 2012 21:13 ImbaTosS wrote: That's me out of Korean SC. I don't want to watch this sub-standard, fumblefest, Frankenstein's monster of a league.
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
Welcome to the real life i guess. Its not really that different in any other competition be it video or real one or whatever. I know its hard to imagine some people here actually opening this site to sit in a tiny corner in BW forums and discuss things there and its unimaginable for many people, same way as its unimaginable for me to do many things yet i somehow muster my imagination and my brain cells to understand and if i cant i at least tolerate it, the free will.
To end it i do not understand why would someone unrelated to Brood War come here and lecture how people should act. You are not expected to come to unrelated to you person's funeral. Because there is no reason, unless there is something you could gain from it. And yes many SC2 people come here to gain the inheritance. Now how sad it is? Analogy is half-assed but imho serves the purpose, there are many things to gain from "BW death" for SC2 scene and for 1 BW elitits there are 100 SC2 people who turnish the last bits with their posting on this site. Respect the feelings of people no matter how wrong they are to your 3rd party perspective which in fact is in advantageous position.
Note: Im not solely BW fan.
Guess you didnt read the part were i said i have watch BW for years. Im 26 I begged for weeks to my parents and got starcraft on release day. I took jobs around town to make enough money to buy BW myself. I love the game. But im not gonna try and tear down kespa or any league. I dont say sc2 isnt a legit game. I dont want the whole esports scene to just shut down just because i dont get to see what i wanna see. I happen to like sc2 as well. I like bw better so maybe thats why i dont understand the pure hatred around here. I mean I dont get fighting games. Dont like the casting dont find it entertaining. But im not out posting on how fighting games are bullshit. That they take no skill and there shouldnt be tourneys for them and we should get people to boycott it. People dont like it thats fine to each his own dont get involved but do you really need to go out of your way and actively try and undermine it?
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
Welcome to the real life i guess. Its not really that different in any other competition be it video or real one or whatever. I know its hard to imagine some people here actually opening this site to sit in a tiny corner in BW forums and discuss things there and its unimaginable for many people, same way as its unimaginable for me to do many things yet i somehow muster my imagination and my brain cells to understand and if i cant i at least tolerate it, the free will.
To end it i do not understand why would someone unrelated to Brood War come here and lecture how people should act. You are not expected to come to unrelated to you person's funeral. Because there is no reason, unless there is something you could gain from it. And yes many SC2 people come here to gain the inheritance. Now how sad it is? Analogy is half-assed but imho serves the purpose, there are many things to gain from "BW death" for SC2 scene and for 1 BW elitits there are 100 SC2 people who turnish the last bits with their posting on this site. Respect the feelings of people no matter how wrong they are to your 3rd party perspective which in fact is in advantageous position.
Note: Im not solely BW fan.
Guess you didnt read the part were i said i have watch BW for years. Im 26 I begged for weeks to my parents and got starcraft on release day. I took jobs around town to make enough money to buy BW myself. I love the game. But im not gonna try and tear down kespa or any league. I dont say sc2 isnt a legit game. I dont want the whole esports scene to just shut down just because i dont get to see what i wanna see. I happen to like sc2 as well. I like bw better so maybe thats why i dont understand the pure hatred around here. I mean I dont get fighting games. Dont like the casting dont find it entertaining. But im not out posting on how fighting games are bullshit. That they take no skill and there shouldnt be tourneys for them and we should get people to boycott it. People dont like it thats fine to each his own dont get involved but do you really need to go out of your way and actively try and undermine it?
I think that is not his point. On an unrelated note...would the way you feel about fighting games change if there was no more starcraft because it was being replace by a fighting game? And if that was still the case but ontop of that you'd get people to tell you you are selfish if you dont like and support fighting games?
To some people SC2 is as foreign as a fighting game and to lose something they've loved and actively did for 10+ years is bad enough let alone being constantly bombarded with people telling they should just support esports and other stuff. Yeah people could just ignore that. But sometimes you can't keep it to yourself.
Edit: Although I agree that just wanting it all to crash and burn isn't the way. I was just stating that people's pain is understandable and most people that are "trolling" the bw fans don't understand it.
Honestly, I'm really excited for the new season of Proleague! I'm so curious to see whether players are going to showcase standard play or whether they've developed their own styles, being limited to their own teamhouses for the duration of their SC2 practice.
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
Welcome to the real life i guess. Its not really that different in any other competition be it video or real one or whatever. I know its hard to imagine some people here actually opening this site to sit in a tiny corner in BW forums and discuss things there and its unimaginable for many people, same way as its unimaginable for me to do many things yet i somehow muster my imagination and my brain cells to understand and if i cant i at least tolerate it, the free will.
To end it i do not understand why would someone unrelated to Brood War come here and lecture how people should act. You are not expected to come to unrelated to you person's funeral. Because there is no reason, unless there is something you could gain from it. And yes many SC2 people come here to gain the inheritance. Now how sad it is? Analogy is half-assed but imho serves the purpose, there are many things to gain from "BW death" for SC2 scene and for 1 BW elitits there are 100 SC2 people who turnish the last bits with their posting on this site. Respect the feelings of people no matter how wrong they are to your 3rd party perspective which in fact is in advantageous position.
Note: Im not solely BW fan.
Guess you didnt read the part were i said i have watch BW for years. Im 26 I begged for weeks to my parents and got starcraft on release day. I took jobs around town to make enough money to buy BW myself. I love the game. But im not gonna try and tear down kespa or any league. I dont say sc2 isnt a legit game. I dont want the whole esports scene to just shut down just because i dont get to see what i wanna see. I happen to like sc2 as well. I like bw better so maybe thats why i dont understand the pure hatred around here. I mean I dont get fighting games. Dont like the casting dont find it entertaining. But im not out posting on how fighting games are bullshit. That they take no skill and there shouldnt be tourneys for them and we should get people to boycott it. People dont like it thats fine to each his own dont get involved but do you really need to go out of your way and actively try and undermine it?
Fine im sorry i missed the part of following bw for years, maybe house analogy cought my eyes to much. But what you are saying is describing BW vs SC2 antagonism which only exist because both communities integrate with each other. Some people say its bad, but i think its irrelevant. The fact that there is "war" shows that there is difference. This difference is big enough reason to not shove each product into other ones throat. You understand the difference and accept it other one will not, but it doesnt neccesery mean he is dumber or something its the fact he does not like the difference and its his own thing. There are trolls and people being upset or even angry thats a difference. Trolls dont need reason, they will find a reason to troll, there are passionate people being upset or angry and this happens everywhere.
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
Welcome to the real life i guess. Its not really that different in any other competition be it video or real one or whatever. I know its hard to imagine some people here actually opening this site to sit in a tiny corner in BW forums and discuss things there and its unimaginable for many people, same way as its unimaginable for me to do many things yet i somehow muster my imagination and my brain cells to understand and if i cant i at least tolerate it, the free will.
To end it i do not understand why would someone unrelated to Brood War come here and lecture how people should act. You are not expected to come to unrelated to you person's funeral. Because there is no reason, unless there is something you could gain from it. And yes many SC2 people come here to gain the inheritance. Now how sad it is? Analogy is half-assed but imho serves the purpose, there are many things to gain from "BW death" for SC2 scene and for 1 BW elitits there are 100 SC2 people who turnish the last bits with their posting on this site. Respect the feelings of people no matter how wrong they are to your 3rd party perspective which in fact is in advantageous position.
Note: Im not solely BW fan.
Guess you didnt read the part were i said i have watch BW for years. Im 26 I begged for weeks to my parents and got starcraft on release day. I took jobs around town to make enough money to buy BW myself. I love the game. But im not gonna try and tear down kespa or any league. I dont say sc2 isnt a legit game. I dont want the whole esports scene to just shut down just because i dont get to see what i wanna see. I happen to like sc2 as well. I like bw better so maybe thats why i dont understand the pure hatred around here. I mean I dont get fighting games. Dont like the casting dont find it entertaining. But im not out posting on how fighting games are bullshit. That they take no skill and there shouldnt be tourneys for them and we should get people to boycott it. People dont like it thats fine to each his own dont get involved but do you really need to go out of your way and actively try and undermine it?
Fine im sorry i missed the part of following bw for years, maybe house analogy cought my eyes to much. But what you are saying is describing BW vs SC2 antagonism which only exist because both communities integrate with each other. Some people say its bad, but i think its irrelevant. The fact that there is "war" shows that there is difference. This difference is big enough reason to not shove each product into other ones throat. You understand the difference and accept it other one will not, but it doesnt neccesery mean he is dumber or something its the fact he does not like the difference and its his own thing. There are trolls and people being upset or even angry thats a difference. Trolls dont need reason, they will find a reason to troll, there are passionate people being upset or angry and this happens everywhere.
I agree that in a perfect world we could just have the two games coexist in separate leagues no cross over and everything would be fine and beautiful.Sadly thats not were we are at. The truth is if BW were raking in the cash, viewers and sponsors it would have its own strong stand alone leagues. But its not so this is what we have. What I take exception to is people who want to kill the whole thing because they dont get exactly what they want. Screw the player trying to make a living screw the the whole scene. They dont get to see what they want then nobody gets to see anything and im sorry but that is complete bullshit.
On May 10 2012 20:33 Detwiler wrote: So much hate from the BW crowd I love BW been watching for years but the fans around here.... Its really sad. Its like if you had a house and when its time to move out instead of clean it up and leaving in peace.. you burn the house down. Thats all I hear from 90% of the BW crowd. Burn the fucking house down. Screw the esports scene screw all the the teams and all the players. No ones allowed to play sc2, no one is allowed to continue their career in sc2. Its either BW or the whole scene has to shut down and everyone has to quit. Like a bunch of children that will break a toy before let other kids play with it.
Welcome to the real life i guess. Its not really that different in any other competition be it video or real one or whatever. I know its hard to imagine some people here actually opening this site to sit in a tiny corner in BW forums and discuss things there and its unimaginable for many people, same way as its unimaginable for me to do many things yet i somehow muster my imagination and my brain cells to understand and if i cant i at least tolerate it, the free will.
To end it i do not understand why would someone unrelated to Brood War come here and lecture how people should act. You are not expected to come to unrelated to you person's funeral. Because there is no reason, unless there is something you could gain from it. And yes many SC2 people come here to gain the inheritance. Now how sad it is? Analogy is half-assed but imho serves the purpose, there are many things to gain from "BW death" for SC2 scene and for 1 BW elitits there are 100 SC2 people who turnish the last bits with their posting on this site. Respect the feelings of people no matter how wrong they are to your 3rd party perspective which in fact is in advantageous position.
Note: Im not solely BW fan.
Guess you didnt read the part were i said i have watch BW for years. Im 26 I begged for weeks to my parents and got starcraft on release day. I took jobs around town to make enough money to buy BW myself. I love the game. But im not gonna try and tear down kespa or any league. I dont say sc2 isnt a legit game. I dont want the whole esports scene to just shut down just because i dont get to see what i wanna see. I happen to like sc2 as well. I like bw better so maybe thats why i dont understand the pure hatred around here. I mean I dont get fighting games. Dont like the casting dont find it entertaining. But im not out posting on how fighting games are bullshit. That they take no skill and there shouldnt be tourneys for them and we should get people to boycott it. People dont like it thats fine to each his own dont get involved but do you really need to go out of your way and actively try and undermine it?
Fine im sorry i missed the part of following bw for years, maybe house analogy cought my eyes to much. But what you are saying is describing BW vs SC2 antagonism which only exist because both communities integrate with each other. Some people say its bad, but i think its irrelevant. The fact that there is "war" shows that there is difference. This difference is big enough reason to not shove each product into other ones throat. You understand the difference and accept it other one will not, but it doesnt neccesery mean he is dumber or something its the fact he does not like the difference and its his own thing. There are trolls and people being upset or even angry thats a difference. Trolls dont need reason, they will find a reason to troll, there are passionate people being upset or angry and this happens everywhere.
I agree that in a perfect world we could just have the two games coexist in separate leagues no cross over and everything would be fine and beautiful.Sadly thats not were we are at. The truth is if BW were raking in the cash, viewers and sponsors it would have its own strong stand alone leagues. But its not so this is what we have. What I take exception to is people who want to kill the whole thing because they dont get exactly what they want. Screw the player trying to make a living screw the the whole scene. They dont get to see what they want then nobody gets to see anything and im sorry but that is complete bullshit.
What the hell are you talking about. People don't want this tournament format because it sucks. I'm not going to watch sc2 just "because". Come up with a better reason.
I'm not sure if you've watched the ODT but some of the groups was a waste of time. Terrible games.
On May 10 2012 16:21 icyF wrote: Here's to hoping this madness will not continue for more seasons, but instead revert back to only BW.
You do realize it's the other way around - after this season, it's purely SC2 and no more BW for Pro-League, as per the comments of the KESPA official when they had the Blizzard/GOM/KESPA/OGN conference announcement (please search for the transcript of the conference).
"This was done intentionally so that people wouldn't be able to point to great BW games right before SC2 comes out and claim that there is something worth saving. It's not to ease the transition of BW to SC2 but to force it even more. Thank you @ Blizzard, KeSPa, and everyone else involved in this murder. The best part is that the Korean BW following is probably STILL stronger than the SC2 one, but it sure won't be after this season. Perfect plot! Good work all around, pass around the cigars. FML."
Read all of the posts here and feel like this previous post by me still sums up how I feel.
Yes I would rather burn this house down than see it inhabited by my enemy. Yes I would break the toy before handing it to a child who will modify it to the point where it will only be the same toy in name, but not quality or play. Yes I would rather have both games die than SC2 take BW's place and players, because it's a bastardization of the game I love. The only thing about SC2 that I feel any allegiance to is TL, and because TL has embraced the game and is now competing in it I can't wish ill upon TL. But other than that...
The main reasons that BW stopped getting sponsors are: 1. Savior/Matchfixing, 2. SC2 being very popular in the chobo foreign community (aka ESPORTS, fuck). SC2 was a flop in Korea, in part due to LAN/account restrictions, in part due to the fact that the game is not BW and Koreans like BW, so why switch? I'm guessing there a bunch of suits sitting somewhere rubbing their hands together now that they finally can milk some money out of SC2 when it "replaces" BW, because they see the money-making potential of SC2 in the foreign community and think that the same shit will fly in Korea.
Well there's no choice now I guess, thanks for the dick down our throat.
I'm becoming more and more okay with SC2 being the next thing. I don't like to see it "replace" BW but meh, reality. Especially with the bigger maps (e.g. Ohana) we're starting to see things that look like "real" games.
Plus, honestly, I kind of want to know what fantasy does when it turns out he still can't bio.
All that said, this particular format is kind of dumb.
I think I'm gonna watch this for the lulz. Think about it. Because they're practicing two games at the same time, every player will be Jaehoon-like. They're going to confuse their hotkeys. They're going to forget upgrades that don't exist in the other game. They're going to mess up their build orders.
I'd prefer having separate LR threads where we can discuss everything. Might be better to discuss even the SC2 games here without the SC2 community.
I think this sounds pretty interesting, to be honest. I'll be watching all sets even though I'm more into SC2. I don't understand how you could only watch one set and just ignore the other without caring what team actually wins. Well, I guess if you're really *that* bitter and angry it makes sense, but I personally consider this format a unique, once-in-a-lifetime experiment that I'm excited to be a part of.
I also think it makes much more sense to have SC2 as the ace match. If Proleague is going to make a full switch to SC2 then they should emphasize it's importance in the format to encourage teams to practice it more. My only complaint is that perhaps the ace match should be BO3 since SC2 games tend to be shorter than BW.
I agree too that separate LR threads is a good idea! Although if the really angry BW fans don't even watch the SC2 games then I guess the hate will be kept to a minimum (as I don't think SC2 fans will have any reason to complain).
Will they have different monitors for BW/SC2 or just superimpose 4:3 on a widescreen for BW? Having no LAN is going to cause so many fucking problems. The game quality will be poor, though it will be nice having a larger player pool, that could make for some funny ones.
The first JD/Flash SC2 Ace match is going to be the weirdest/saddest/funniest thing I've seen.
Hopefully this shit works, but goddamn if there's a lot of things that could make it awful. Something like this could give a boost to the BW, as the excitement of the spectacle has worn down over the years. Having seen fewer games for the past year and now even less could actually give a push-back towards wanting more.
It is strange to look and see SKT vs T8 and see Brood War maps but then oh wait, Entombed Valley!? Antiga Shipyard!? Very surreal but also very exciting. Simply cannot wait!
That feeling when BW progamers are playing on Cloud Kingdom and Ohana :D
But I find it interesting that they aren't playing on GSL maps yet, so no Daybreak or Tal'Darim. Though to be fair, the ladder versions of those two maps aren't as good as their original tournament versions.
And there have been worse maps than Entombed Valley and Antiga Shipyard, though using the ladder versions will be annoying since most tournament versions tweak spawns and the ramps to make games less cheese-filled. I'm very worried that a lot of these early SC2 games will be rather cheesy due to low player skill and bad spawn positions on ladder maps.
Hmm sad to see it end like this but I'll be cheering for T8 all the way, in the interview earlier, i think it was jaehoon who said t8 were the first to get into sc2, which would certainly explain their dire performance last season, I just hope that means that they are actually good at sc2 :D
Here's hoping this format completely bombs. SC2 will never get the TV ratings in Korea to be profitable. If the people at the studio and watching on TV do leave/turn off during SC2 then OGN will be forced to make a decision. BW won't bring in substantial online viewers. SC2 won't bring in substantial TV viewers. They will go full SC2 and become online only or revert back to BW (wishful thinking) or drop any form of Starcraft entirely.
On May 11 2012 01:25 eviltomahawk wrote: That feeling when BW progamers are playing on Cloud Kingdom and Ohana :D
But I find it interesting that they aren't playing on GSL maps yet, so no Daybreak or Tal'Darim. Though to be fair, the ladder versions of those two maps aren't as good as their original tournament versions.
And there have been worse maps than Entombed Valley and Antiga Shipyard, though using the ladder versions will be annoying since most tournament versions tweak spawns and the ramps to make games less cheese-filled. I'm very worried that a lot of these early SC2 games will be rather cheesy due to low player skill and bad spawn positions on ladder maps.
They can't play on gsl maps due to previous animosity between them. OGN will have to make their own maps and they are very good mapmakers.
GMarshal is probably gonna ban me for this, but w/e
The first game I see flash playing SC2 is probably gonna feel like watching lance armstrong riding a tricycle in the Tour de France. W/e less bw = more efficiency doing other things.
I feel like everyone is gonna be disappointed by the level of play shown in the SC2 matches. People are saying they will dominate straight away but I don't see it happening, not even by three months.
I don't want Flash to play because I think it will diminish his aura of badassery
20th of may will be a starcraft marathon . First time seeing all of the Kespa teams in one day . I am hoping for some good games and the good thing with OGN is that i don't have to pay for vods on the games i've missed .
I'm torn. A day of the most exciting gaming I've yet to witness. 4 showdowns on a single day!? 11hrs of my favorite pass-time? CJ Entus vs KT rematch? It can only turn out one way (CJ 4-0 clean). On the other hand we will witness some really mediocre SC2. And having BW pros fumble around and try to win a ace in SC2 just feels . . . underwhelming. Also forcing players to alternate between BW and SC2 and not have dedicated players for each game. . . I'm very suspicious to this format. On a side-note, I saw ForGG play yesterday - he killed Sangho 3-0 with balls to the walls crazy early timing attacks. I hope to god he comes back to KT or that Oz gets revived.
12:14 KST (+09:00): And we're done, with the final set of Q&A questions. Thanks for tuning in! Thanks kimbilly, you can follow him @kimbillly (three L's).
One final note from kimbillly: There won't be global broadcasts ready for opening day, but they'll start soon after!
If there is enough demand, I can try and cast the games myself until OGN get their English broadcast up (as I have somewhat okay knowledge of both games).
On May 10 2012 21:22 hoop1 wrote: we need sayle and tastosis to cast this, that would be awesome
I'm tempted.
Please, any of you guys cast it! I'm a SC2 guy and I'd really like to understand whats going on on the BW-Side. Having to watch a korean stream, I won't be able to understand anything of whats happening in the game or what rivalries the teams have. Sayle did cast last PL and afaik has some good knowledge of what's going on in BW scene, I'd really like to see him cast. But honestly dual cast would be the best, more fun / more knowledge, plus casting 8+ hours straight sure is goign to be exhausting.
On May 11 2012 01:25 eviltomahawk wrote: That feeling when BW progamers are playing on Cloud Kingdom and Ohana :D
But I find it interesting that they aren't playing on GSL maps yet, so no Daybreak or Tal'Darim. Though to be fair, the ladder versions of those two maps aren't as good as their original tournament versions.
And there have been worse maps than Entombed Valley and Antiga Shipyard, though using the ladder versions will be annoying since most tournament versions tweak spawns and the ramps to make games less cheese-filled. I'm very worried that a lot of these early SC2 games will be rather cheesy due to low player skill and bad spawn positions on ladder maps.
They can't play on gsl maps due to previous animosity between them. OGN will have to make their own maps and they are very good mapmakers.
Honestly, OGN maps should be really interesting to watch from an SC2 perspective. They probably won't look a bit like current sc2 maps and this should be really fun to watch. I just hope they don't have an indepth look at the current sc2 map pool and just go with their instinct and it should be really fun to watch.
For all the people saying viewers would leave the studio after BW section is done... I really don't think so. I may be wrong on this, but most BW fans are as much fans of the teams and players as they are fans of the game - I would hope they are curious enough to see the overall results of the matches and at least give their favourite players in SC2 a chance.
And as for people saying, "it'd be great if viewers leave after BW games are done"... no, it wouldn't. It's pretty much already decided that professional BW isn't going to last past this year, the best we could count on as fans is to see the teams we know and love continue their existence even if it's in a different and less interesting game. If OGN decides not to broadcast SC2 in the longterm, it might well mean that all of the current Kespa teams will just disband, leaving the players to either retire or try to make it in SC2 on their own - surely neither of these is a better alternative to having Proleague switch to SC2.
On May 11 2012 04:39 Sethronu wrote: And as for people saying, "it'd be great if viewers leave after BW games are done"... no, it wouldn't. It's pretty much already decided that professional BW isn't going to last past this year, the best we could count on as fans is to see the teams we know and love continue their existence even if it's in a different and less interesting game. If OGN decides not to broadcast SC2 in the longterm, it might well mean that all of the current Kespa teams will just disband, leaving the players to either retire or try to make it in SC2 on their own - surely neither of these is a better alternative to having Proleague switch to SC2.
Pretty much this. The e-sports 'industry' in Korea has seen the huge success of SC2 in foreign regions, and the massive amounts of money (apparently?) being thrown around, and want in on it. They are not going to turn back even if a portion (and remember, it's a portion, you won't get everyone involved) of the BW fan community wants to turn their backs on it. It would be far better for the players, teams, industry and the game itself to follow the transition and support the players and teams. Then as time goes on, the storylines you loved from BW will develop once again, and after the expansions SC2 will be gradually fine-tuned by the players and developers until it's as balanced as it can be.
Rather than kicking SC2 down, help make it into the new BW, instead of simply boycotting it and being left with nothing at all. And hey, if the SC2 community is what sucks in your opinion, then an influx of BW fans who are supportive of the players and teams may actually set a positive example and help set things straight.
However if you were only interested in BW for the game itself, and have no real interest in e-sports on a whole or the where the players go, then fair enough.
EDIT: Oh but to clarify, I do think the duel BW/SC2 system is really stupid and will only result in terribly poor quality games and stress for the players, but OGN already said it's only for this one proleague, so we'll just have to put up with it.
much like a family after divorce, I think both LR should be in separate forums and those interested in following the overall result will just have to click the link to the other LR thread and go from one forum to the other, like kids travelling from one house to the other....
On May 11 2012 01:25 eviltomahawk wrote: That feeling when BW progamers are playing on Cloud Kingdom and Ohana :D
But I find it interesting that they aren't playing on GSL maps yet, so no Daybreak or Tal'Darim. Though to be fair, the ladder versions of those two maps aren't as good as their original tournament versions.
And there have been worse maps than Entombed Valley and Antiga Shipyard, though using the ladder versions will be annoying since most tournament versions tweak spawns and the ramps to make games less cheese-filled. I'm very worried that a lot of these early SC2 games will be rather cheesy due to low player skill and bad spawn positions on ladder maps.
They can't play on gsl maps due to previous animosity between them. OGN will have to make their own maps and they are very good mapmakers.
Yeah, it's not a big concern once they learn the tools.
We'll have to deal with the shitty map pool in the meantime.
I want my last memories of BW Proleague to be of last season's playoffs and finals, not of some half-hearted games played as a bone thrown to BW fans in an attempt by KeSPA to have their cake and eat it too. The ODT made it abundantly clear what kind of BW we can expect from progamers going forward. I'm sorry to say that this will be the first time I intentionally avoid watching Korean BW.
I have a feeling the game quality will be absolutely terrible. We've already seen shit games lately which I suspect is because players are splitting their practice time, now we'll just get to see shit BW games followed by shit SC2 games.
I'll watch if I have the time slot free though, it sounds like the kind of trainwreck you don't want to miss seeing.
I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
why should they watch a game they don't enjoy?
even if the pros themselves like it too, people are free to watch what they want.
On May 10 2012 16:24 Ideas wrote: i dont want to watch
it's so sad becuase if this was normal proleague I would of been so fucking pumped to have a whole day of BW to watch :\
Same here. So sad to see this happening. I guess that's it though. It was a nice ride here at TL but I guess after the OSL it will be over for me...
Peace, I will be on TL until like TL dies :D
TL aint dying. Just like BW aint dying. I don't about you guys, but I still play from time to time. I can always find a game with a few friends or strangers and to the other guy above. It's a bunch of things. I mean we've had threads and threads of discussion. Just takes a little searching.
Blind, it's as if they don't even try to understand it. I'll give him some guidance though. One of the hottest issues at the moment is the stupid format and if you cannot wrap your head around that then there's zero point trying to explain the rest.
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
Imagine the situation. In 10 years or whatever SC3 is released. You love SC2 a lot. You grew up with that game. You played thousand games, it's a part of your identity, part of your soul.
You see SC3 and you see that's a completely different game. Gone are the things that you enjoyed the most. It has different feel, it looks different, it is different. You don't enjoy it.
However, there is a huge crowd of new people screaming SC3 is the future of ESPORTS. We should move to SC3. You think that SC3 is way worse than SC2 in every respect but despite it all teams switch to it. SC2 cease to be played at competitive level. And you simply don't like SC3. Don't like watchin, it don't like playing it.
How would you feel? I grew up with BW.. I'm 26 now. This game has been with me for 14 years! And I don't like SC2. Can't tell you exactly why but simply don't. That's my taste and I have a right not to like a game. Now I'm really really sad that BW will be gone. And I'm really angry that people come here, some 16 years old teenagers screaming: "IT'S FOR ESPORT", "YOU SHOULD SUPPORT ESPORTS" etc. As if I care... I don't. I'm selfish person and I care about my own enjoyment (like most of the people here even those who pretend that they care about some BIGGER issues).
I've always thought the beauty of e-sports in Korea wasn't so much the game as it was the players. They were the reason I was so painfully addicted to staying up super-late and watching every single match (literally) of broadcasted BW for years before SC2 was ever released. The more I connected with players, the more I enjoyed the game.
I found the same to be true for SC2 as well when I was introduced to it. The players I already loved that had transitioned helped me to enjoy the game at release even when play was ludicrously unrefined. But over time I developed new stars to follow based on their skill and playstyle, just like I had in BW (Hero comes to mind!).
I think that overall the still active BW community largely supports both games like myself, but the vocal minority that has been quite dismissive of SC2 has gained far too much prevalence as of late. I think the other poster was right with the idea that many of these people are trying to "burn the house down" as they leave.
I can understand and am perfectly empathetic to those that are unwilling or unable to learn and re-commit to a new game and would rather just leave the scene, but many go far beyond that. They not only throw stones at those bright-eyed fans that would replace them, but also those that they once idolized who have or are now moving on, and for what? It will not bring BW back, and it will not make anyone change their mind. It is argument for the sake of argument, hate for the sake of hate. It will only tarnish the legacy and destroy the reputation of one of the most historically mature and exceptional communities I have ever known.
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
For me, it is like in Lion King when mufasa was killed by scar because scar was on his mad quest for power. Do you expect me to embrace scar after seeing him kill mufasa?
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
For me, it is like in Lion King when mufasa was killed by scar because scar was on his mad quest for power. Do you expect me to embrace scar after seeing him kill mufasa?
I dont think that would be an accurate analogy. Is more like Mufasa (Kespa), Simba(BW), Scar(Blizzard), Scar's Kid (SC2). Not liking Blizzard is totally understandable from a BW fan's standpoint, but the anger a rage often gets vented on the fans, players and just the general game of SC2. SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
Arguably, this is the first actual time SC2 and BW are legitimately side by side. BW has always been the Korea thing, while SC2's growth predominantly happened in the foreign scene.
If SC2 is treated equal to Blizzard, then technically BW is also equal to Blizzard since both have the same ties to them. I think a lot of this bitterness between groups would be alieviated if people seperated the business and legal actions taken by Blizzard and KeSPA outside both games from the actual games of BW and SC2.
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
For me, it is like in Lion King when mufasa was killed by scar because scar was on his mad quest for power. Do you expect me to embrace scar after seeing him kill mufasa?
I dont think that would be an accurate analogy. Is more like Mufasa (Kespa), Simba(BW), Scar(Blizzard), Scar's Kid (SC2). Not liking Blizzard is totally understandable from a BW fan's standpoint, but the anger a rage often gets vented on the fans, players and just the general game of SC2. SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
Arguably, this is the first actual time SC2 and BW are legitimately side by side. BW has always been the Korea thing, while SC2's growth predominantly happened in the foreign scene.
If SC2 is treated equal to Blizzard, then technically BW is also equal to Blizzard since both have the same ties to them. I think a lot of this bitterness between groups would be alieviated if people seperated the business and legal actions taken by Blizzard and KeSPA outside both games from the actual games of BW and SC2.
The thing that botters me so much about sc2 is that there is little to no macro past a certain point. Have you guys seen forgg? he presses a7,s2,dd2 WHILE microing and that makes 7 marines, 2 tanks and 2 medivacs in about 3-2 seconds.
How are bw pros supposed to show their greatest strength in a game that has no macro, hopefully HOTS fix this a little bit. Its a sad day indeed, they are litteraly forcing people to watch sc2 now by doing this with proleague and to be honest is a pretty retarded rule set, its not bw fault that sc2 didnt hit as big in korea.
Admittedly, I will watch all sets, both games. Everything deserves one fair shake. Though I can't say the same for day 2, and I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy the second half enough.
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
For me, it is like in Lion King when mufasa was killed by scar because scar was on his mad quest for power. Do you expect me to embrace scar after seeing him kill mufasa?
I dont think that would be an accurate analogy. Is more like Mufasa (Kespa), Simba(BW), Scar(Blizzard), Scar's Kid (SC2). Not liking Blizzard is totally understandable from a BW fan's standpoint, but the anger a rage often gets vented on the fans, players and just the general game of SC2. SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
Arguably, this is the first actual time SC2 and BW are legitimately side by side. BW has always been the Korea thing, while SC2's growth predominantly happened in the foreign scene.
If SC2 is treated equal to Blizzard, then technically BW is also equal to Blizzard since both have the same ties to them. I think a lot of this bitterness between groups would be alieviated if people seperated the business and legal actions taken by Blizzard and KeSPA outside both games from the actual games of BW and SC2.
Scar's kid is actually league of legends.
That doesn't make sense if Scar is Blizzard. Its already a muddled analogy without bringing another genre/game/developer/scene. My analogy was contained within SC sphere, LoL may have fit in the decline of general interest section. We would need a whole new analogy to incorporate the dynamics of another game/developer/genre.
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
For me, it is like in Lion King when mufasa was killed by scar because scar was on his mad quest for power. Do you expect me to embrace scar after seeing him kill mufasa?
I dont think that would be an accurate analogy. Is more like Mufasa (Kespa), Simba(BW), Scar(Blizzard), Scar's Kid (SC2). Not liking Blizzard is totally understandable from a BW fan's standpoint, but the anger a rage often gets vented on the fans, players and just the general game of SC2. SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
Arguably, this is the first actual time SC2 and BW are legitimately side by side. BW has always been the Korea thing, while SC2's growth predominantly happened in the foreign scene.
If SC2 is treated equal to Blizzard, then technically BW is also equal to Blizzard since both have the same ties to them. I think a lot of this bitterness between groups would be alieviated if people seperated the business and legal actions taken by Blizzard and KeSPA outside both games from the actual games of BW and SC2.
Scar's kid is actually league of legends.
That doesn't make sense if Scar is Blizzard. Its already a muddled analogy without bringing another genre/game/developer/scene. My analogy was contained within SC sphere, LoL may have fit in the decline of general interest section. We would need a whole new analogy to incorporate the dynamics of another game/developer/genre.
To me, scar isn't Blizzard. Scar is SC2, hence, part of my signature. My correct response should've been: "Scar's kid is not yet born." You are right, though, LoL should not be part of this.
Oh wow I felt really weird when I saw broodwar and sc2 maps mixed in the map schedule. Moreover I'm wondering if they are going to play sc2 on 1920x1080 resolution, so broodwar will not fully cover the screen, I mean sides of the screen will be empty. AFAIK more resolution in sc2 means wider ground view?
this is how much i understand you guys right now: The Simba for League of Scar is Brood War for Legends in Blizzard and Starcraft 2 controlling Mufasa. Kespa and scar's kid are like Aladdin and the Bambi.
w/e im gonna tune in just to see how BW pros play SC2
What the heck is going on with the Lion King refferences?
Anyway, as a SCII fan I'm not sure if I should be exited or sad about this. I'd say its both for me. I'm sad to see what could be the begining of the end of BW on Korean TV (which is a crying shame) but I'm also really curious to see how the current BW pros will do in SCII.
I do wish that, if KeSPA is hell bent on the change, they would have done a clear break. A half and half proleague doesn't really do anyone justice.
On May 11 2012 12:54 o[twist] wrote: i am hoping against all odds that top bw players can make sc2 interesting to me
tbh I doubt the BW players can have the level of a Jjakji-Leenock, or an MVP-TOP (game 1) or even a DRG-Genius. They probably won't be /that/ good while still practicing BW. But we'll see I guess.
Ideally we'll see NaDa and July on ACE at some point, though. That would be one unimbicously good aspect of a switch to SCII, however small.
On May 11 2012 10:55 Alryk wrote: I still don't understand why there is so much hate from bw fans. Even the pros say that they enjoy the new game, is your blind hate for a game you might have never seen lately (the game has evolved in the past two years) so huge that you can't even be happy for the players you followed so long?
Edit: even if this isn't how you all feel, please enlighten me, cause all I feel coming from you guys is just anger...
For me, it is like in Lion King when mufasa was killed by scar because scar was on his mad quest for power. Do you expect me to embrace scar after seeing him kill mufasa?
I dont think that would be an accurate analogy. Is more like Mufasa (Kespa), Simba(BW), Scar(Blizzard), Scar's Kid (SC2). Not liking Blizzard is totally understandable from a BW fan's standpoint, but the anger a rage often gets vented on the fans, players and just the general game of SC2. SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
Arguably, this is the first actual time SC2 and BW are legitimately side by side. BW has always been the Korea thing, while SC2's growth predominantly happened in the foreign scene.
If SC2 is treated equal to Blizzard, then technically BW is also equal to Blizzard since both have the same ties to them. I think a lot of this bitterness between groups would be alieviated if people seperated the business and legal actions taken by Blizzard and KeSPA outside both games from the actual games of BW and SC2.
Scar's kid is actually league of legends.
That doesn't make sense if Scar is Blizzard. Its already a muddled analogy without bringing another genre/game/developer/scene. My analogy was contained within SC sphere, LoL may have fit in the decline of general interest section. We would need a whole new analogy to incorporate the dynamics of another game/developer/genre.
To me, scar isn't Blizzard. Scar is SC2, hence, part of my signature. My correct response should've been: "Scar's kid is not yet born." You are right, though, LoL should not be part of this.
Alright, but that was my point. SC2 didnt contribute to BW's downfall so much as the Betting Scandal, Blizzard legal battle, etc. SC2 didn't really contend with BW in the foreign scene, and SC2 did really get stacked against BW until this upcoming Proleague. Hating on SC2 and the community around it for all the crap that happened to BW from Blizzard and other places, is like hating on BW and the community for something KeSPA did.
I hope everyone will at least watch a single game from both sides. I fear that players who didn't play SC1, might be deterred by the 14 year old graphics, though, and that those who haven't played SC2 might be deterred by.. well look at 80% of the responses in most threads on this topic..
I really hope that it goes well, though! Think if a few days after, we all of a sudden have a bunch of people picking up SC1/BW who had never tried it, and a bunch of others giving SC2 a try. And more enthusiasm and joy are infused into the Starcraft universe as a whole!
This is one of the most unique periods in StarCraft history, and I really hope you guys all don't waste it out of stubbornness. Let's just all take a break from our negative emotions for one night and see what happens. Going in with an attitude of "this is the dumbest thing of all time, I can't believe kespa is so stupid" will only hurt yourself. If on the following day you conclude "that was the dumbest proleague plan of all time, kespa is so stupid," that's okay. At least you gave it a chance.
I think one of the most interesting things for me will be seeing whom they send out for each game. I'm kind of thinking it'll be more like B-team players who they've had playing SC2 longer that will play that, and the top players will still play BW.I hope it doesn't get too much like this, though.
I want to see something along the lines of Flash/Action/Hoejja BW and then like Stats/CrazyHydra/Mind on SC2. Rather than some people who didn't even play last season taking all the SC2 spots.
This is the night when I return home for the summer. What a joyful night it will be . Time for CJ to get crushed! (But not really because I want to see 7 games.. )
Oh and I forgot to mention, hurray for ace matches!!
It's the same of the last proleague, just with a 2 in roman numbers >.< And actually the logo is bigger. It seems better with the tiny starcraft above the "proleague"
On May 11 2012 13:22 Befree wrote: I hope everyone will at least watch a single game from both sides. I fear that players who didn't play SC1, might be deterred by the 14 year old graphics, though, and that those who haven't played SC2 might be deterred by.. well look at 80% of the responses in most threads on this topic..
I really hope that it goes well, though! Think if a few days after, we all of a sudden have a bunch of people picking up SC1/BW who had never tried it, and a bunch of others giving SC2 a try. And more enthusiasm and joy are infused into the Starcraft universe as a whole!
This is one of the most unique periods in StarCraft history, and I really hope you guys all don't waste it out of stubbornness. Let's just all take a break from our negative emotions for one night and see what happens. Going in with an attitude of "this is the dumbest thing of all time, I can't believe kespa is so stupid" will only hurt yourself. If on the following day you conclude "that was the dumbest proleague plan of all time, kespa is so stupid," that's okay. At least you gave it a chance.
I think one of the most interesting things for me will be seeing whom they send out for each game. I'm kind of thinking it'll be more like B-team players who they've had playing SC2 longer that will play that, and the top players will still play BW.I hope it doesn't get too much like this, though.
I want to see something along the lines of Flash/Action/Hoejja BW and then like Stats/CrazyHydra/Mind on SC2. Rather than some people who didn't even play last season taking all the SC2 spots.
This is the night when I return home for the summer. What a joyful night it will be . Time for CJ to get crushed! (But not really because I want to see 7 games.. )
Oh and I forgot to mention, hurray for ace matches!!
Just like last season. The games are going to be awful. We're not going to be showcasing anything. X_X
On May 11 2012 11:43 geno wrote: I think that overall the still active BW community largely supports both games like myself, but the vocal minority that has been quite dismissive of SC2 has gained far too much prevalence as of late. I think the other poster was right with the idea that many of these people are trying to "burn the house down" as they leave.
I can understand and am perfectly empathetic to those that are unwilling or unable to learn and re-commit to a new game and would rather just leave the scene, but many go far beyond that. They not only throw stones at those bright-eyed fans that would replace them, but also those that they once idolized who have or are now moving on, and for what? It will not bring BW back, and it will not make anyone change their mind. It is argument for the sake of argument, hate for the sake of hate. It will only tarnish the legacy and destroy the reputation of one of the most historically mature and exceptional communities I have ever known.
Some of these people wish that LoL takes over the e-sports scene and SC2 dies, leaving all the existing BW pros jobless. That is just harmful and hurtful to the players we love.
Without sponsorship, BW cannot survive - it's almost certain that Pro-League and OSL would be cancelled within a year if KESPA and OGN are desperate enough to jump to SC2.
Many people here, knowing that BW cannot survive, would actually choose to see all our BW pros jobless than see them continue their career in SC2.
On May 11 2012 13:22 Befree wrote: I hope everyone will at least watch a single game from both sides. I fear that players who didn't play SC1, might be deterred by the 14 year old graphics, though, and that those who haven't played SC2 might be deterred by.. well look at 80% of the responses in most threads on this topic..
I really hope that it goes well, though! Think if a few days after, we all of a sudden have a bunch of people picking up SC1/BW who had never tried it, and a bunch of others giving SC2 a try. And more enthusiasm and joy are infused into the Starcraft universe as a whole!
This is one of the most unique periods in StarCraft history, and I really hope you guys all don't waste it out of stubbornness. Let's just all take a break from our negative emotions for one night and see what happens. Going in with an attitude of "this is the dumbest thing of all time, I can't believe kespa is so stupid" will only hurt yourself. If on the following day you conclude "that was the dumbest proleague plan of all time, kespa is so stupid," that's okay. At least you gave it a chance.
I think one of the most interesting things for me will be seeing whom they send out for each game. I'm kind of thinking it'll be more like B-team players who they've had playing SC2 longer that will play that, and the top players will still play BW.I hope it doesn't get too much like this, though.
I want to see something along the lines of Flash/Action/Hoejja BW and then like Stats/CrazyHydra/Mind on SC2. Rather than some people who didn't even play last season taking all the SC2 spots.
This is the night when I return home for the summer. What a joyful night it will be . Time for CJ to get crushed! (But not really because I want to see 7 games.. )
Oh and I forgot to mention, hurray for ace matches!!
I dont think that there will be many B-Teamers. The way I understand the system is that if you get to play BW on one day, you have to play SC2 the next match. This should guarantee A-Teamer action; otherwise B-Teamers would have to play BW the next match.
On May 11 2012 12:03 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
Especially sponsorship. It's not SC2 that's killing BW, it's lack of sponsorship that killed BW. When Blizzard settled with KESPA in court, Blizzard gave KESPA the go ahead to broadcast BW indefinitely. Unfortunately, KESPA has trouble finding sponsorship.
It's a given that if KESPA found sponsors, they would not be swtitching to SC2. Switching to SC2 is a last resort for KESPA - we're talking about the organization that bad mouthed SC2 on its release, and fought to death against Blizzard and GOM. For KESPA to switch to a game it harshly criticized and for KESPA to jump in bed with Blizzard and GOM, it's obvious KESPA was on its last breath for sponsorship.
On May 11 2012 12:03 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
It's not SC2 that's killing BW, it's lack of sponsorship that killed BW. When Blizzard settled with KESPA in court, Blizzard gave KESPA the go ahead to broadcast BW indefinitely. Unfortunately, KESPA has trouble finding sponsorship.
It's a given that if KESPA found sponsors, they would not be swtitching to SC2. Switching to SC2 is a last resort for KESPA - we're talking about the organization that bad mouthed SC2 on its release, and fought to death against Blizzard and GOM. For KESPA to switch to a game it harshly criticized and for KESPA to jump in bed with Blizzard and GOM, it's obvious KESPA was on its last breath for sponsorship.
Sorry, but KESPA would have switched to SC2 eventually. They have finally branched to the foreign audience with their global showing of OGNLoL and with the success of tournaments/viewership of SC2 outside of Korea, they would have got into the SC2 game sometime. When you see money to be made outside of Korea, and KESPA saying they wished they had branched out to the foreign audience sooner with Brood War, it might have not been this soon, but it would have gone down eventually where they put their foot into the Starcraft 2 game.
I love Brood War, but you're right about the sponsorships. You can't sit here and tell me everything is fine and that they don't need to change things when two and a half years ago there were twelve pro teams, all with sponsors, and now we're down to only eight with one of them not even having a sponsor.
Hopefully it's ok to say this, but if you're really only a fan of BW/ disappointed with the direction PL is going, please consider only watching the BW games. Only way I can see BW staying is if OGN sees its by far more popular to watch than SC2.
I know this sounds stupid/naive, but if you really don't care for SC2 it doesn't cost you much and you might at least be able to make some sort of statement.
On May 11 2012 21:25 nbaker wrote: Hopefully it's ok to say this, but if you're really only a fan of BW/ disappointed with the direction PL is going, please consider only watching the BW games. Only way I can see BW staying is if OGN sees its by far more popular to watch than SC2.
I know this sounds stupid/naive, but if you really don't care for SC2 it doesn't cost you much and you might at least be able to make some sort of statement.
=/
Maybe that works when you are there in the audience, but there is way more foreign SC2 fans then BW ones lol.
On May 11 2012 21:25 nbaker wrote: Hopefully it's ok to say this, but if you're really only a fan of BW/ disappointed with the direction PL is going, please consider only watching the BW games. Only way I can see BW staying is if OGN sees its by far more popular to watch than SC2.
I know this sounds stupid/naive, but if you really don't care for SC2 it doesn't cost you much and you might at least be able to make some sort of statement.
=/
Maybe that works when you are there in the audience, but there is way more foreign SC2 fans then BW ones lol.
Yeah I know that. The Koreans seem to be talking about doing something similar though, and if I can add to the drop off in any way I plan to.
On May 11 2012 21:25 nbaker wrote: Hopefully it's ok to say this, but if you're really only a fan of BW/ disappointed with the direction PL is going, please consider only watching the BW games. Only way I can see BW staying is if OGN sees its by far more popular to watch than SC2.
I know this sounds stupid/naive, but if you really don't care for SC2 it doesn't cost you much and you might at least be able to make some sort of statement.
=/
Maybe that works when you are there in the audience, but there is way more foreign SC2 fans then BW ones lol.
Yeah I know that. The Koreans seem to be talking about doing something similar though, and if I can add to the drop off in any way I plan to.
This is really fucking childish, If they could have continued to do BW-only then they would have. It's clearly not working out, T8 still has no sponsor and who knows what is going on behind the scenes.
It looks like It's either these players make a transition or they are forced to retire and who knows what they will do considering most of them gave up their education to devote their lives to BW.
Right now the teams need their fans to be supportive and cheer them on, it's a damn scary time for the players and the management venturing into a different space after 10 years of BW. Half of the players are probably freaking out not knowing if they will make the cut in Starcraft 2. If you really care about your team and the players you love then think about their futures.
I don't expect everyone to share this viewpoint but this is how I see it, even if I didn't like Starcraft 2 at all I would rather have my boys be able to continue their careers in a new RTS game instead of becoming janitors.
I don't remember who exactly posted this before, but it was a great post.
Something along the lines of " If this mixed Proleague fails, then both sc1 and sc2 are dead in Korea. "
This is really fucking childish, If they could have continued to do BW-only then they would have. It's clearly not working out, T8 still has no sponsor and who knows what is going on behind the scenes.
It looks like It's either these players make a transition or they are forced to retire and who knows what they will do considering most of them gave up their education to devote their lives to BW. ...
Something along the lines of " If this mixed Proleague fails, then both sc1 and sc2 are dead in Korea. "
^^^
Dodgin gets it. Not sure why so many people in this thread don't get it.
A pure BW league cannot exist because the sponsorship isn't there. If the sponsorship was there, KESPA would continue with BW indefinitely. Switching to SC2 is a last resort for KESPA to stay alive.
Oh god I am so pumped, even if both the scbw and SC2 will suck, we may see new playstyles, rising heroes, bisu against jaedong ... SIGN ME UP ! And as soon as there is English commentary, hurray me.
On May 11 2012 21:25 nbaker wrote: Hopefully it's ok to say this, but if you're really only a fan of BW/ disappointed with the direction PL is going, please consider only watching the BW games. Only way I can see BW staying is if OGN sees its by far more popular to watch than SC2.
I know this sounds stupid/naive, but if you really don't care for SC2 it doesn't cost you much and you might at least be able to make some sort of statement.
=/
Pretty selfish of you to think only for your entertainment instead of the future of the players. If KeSPA does decide to stick with BW and the scene dies soon because of the lack of sponsors, guess what happens?
Whichever decision KeSPA goes for, BW is still gonna get the short end of the stick. Sorry for the BW fans, but that's just the way it is.
This season will be bad, we all know it, but is it really such a bad thing?
Now, put your own imaginary world aside for a moment. We know KeSPA has struggled to find a sponsor for Team 8, we know this. We also know that with each new season it gets harder for them to find a sponsor for Starleague, although the interest is there.
We've had a good run, I'm a late joiner, I started watching regularly sometime early 2010, it's been fantastic. (I did watch a bit before that, but not in the same way, my following brood war dates back to reading battle reports from this tournament).
And I'm one of the people who have gone back and read and watched the past. There is so much material... I haven't even covered a tenth of it yet.
But even for those who've been following religiously all along, watching most every game, there is something to be happy about.
And no, no one is happy about Brood War coming to an end, but what's the alternative? One can only assume that sponsorship wasn't about to pick up, and the international audience is small compared to other popular esports titles.
Are you not glad that our heroes have been given the opportunity to transition? The opportunity to continue their careers? Would you rather see Brood War die a slow death over a long time? Would that not scar it's legacy?
We have already seen the last Pro-League championship, and man did that end fittingly, we will soon see the last OSL champion, and even if the game quality is not up there, last OSL tournament was epic, the finals were really, really good.
Think 10 years down the line, we don't know what will happen once we're there, if esports survived, what games we will be playing, but in 10 years, you sit down, and you want to show someone the legacy of Brood War, show them this era in gaming. Do you want to end up having to put a disclaimer that brood war post 2014? 2015? will not be worth watching as new players don't pick up the game and or teams can't get sponsorships, resulting in ever smaller tournaments until the game implodes on itself?
To us, this pro-league season will be long, but two years down the line there will be no korean brood war, and we should be glad that it went away with it's dignity intact, with it's legacy whole, and it's content pure gold right up until the last championship. There will be no devaluing of Brood War. This season will be forgotten as the transitional season. The last OSL will be remembered as the last tournament, and there are achievements to be had. Flash will be truly immortal if he gets his fourth win. Stork and Fantasy will be looking to get their second win to earn their place among the legends, beneath the gods, but above the greats. The royal road remains open, will there be a ninth royal roader? How will Brood War end?
What's clear is that it will not end in mediocrity, sure, we cannot guarantee that this will be an excellent OSL, but it won't be mediocre, it will be great. These players will be giving it all, they know this is the last chance to put their name on brood war history.
10 years down the line I will be talking to someone about Esports, and I will be able to say with a straight face "There used to be this game called Starcraft: Brood War. Watch it, all of it, right until the end."
On May 11 2012 12:03 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: SC2 didn't kill BW so much as a series of events (Betting Scandal, decline in general interest, etc.) culminating in strong arm legal action by Blizzard.
It's not SC2 that's killing BW, it's lack of sponsorship that killed BW. When Blizzard settled with KESPA in court, Blizzard gave KESPA the go ahead to broadcast BW indefinitely. Unfortunately, KESPA has trouble finding sponsorship.
It's a given that if KESPA found sponsors, they would not be swtitching to SC2. Switching to SC2 is a last resort for KESPA - we're talking about the organization that bad mouthed SC2 on its release, and fought to death against Blizzard and GOM. For KESPA to switch to a game it harshly criticized and for KESPA to jump in bed with Blizzard and GOM, it's obvious KESPA was on its last breath for sponsorship.
Sorry, but KESPA would have switched to SC2 eventually. They have finally branched to the foreign audience with their global showing of OGNLoL and with the success of tournaments/viewership of SC2 outside of Korea, they would have got into the SC2 game sometime. When you see money to be made outside of Korea, and KESPA saying they wished they had branched out to the foreign audience sooner with Brood War, it might have not been this soon, but it would have gone down eventually where they put their foot into the Starcraft 2 game.
I love Brood War, but you're right about the sponsorships. You can't sit here and tell me everything is fine and that they don't need to change things when two and a half years ago there were twelve pro teams, all with sponsors, and now we're down to only eight with one of them not even having a sponsor.
You left out the fact that hardly any new money was coming in when it came to the major tournaments other than Korean Air.
On May 12 2012 06:38 krndandaman wrote: am i the only one who can't stand watching sc2 and won't be following the scene anymore? might catch the bw vods time to time but i doubt the quality will be as good as it was before.
sigh
was looking forward to watch live bw games in korea again this summer but guess it's all over now.
-sad bw fan-
When are you going to Korea? OSL ends in late July.
I imagine that if someone has made it to the final rounds of OSL, they would concentrate much more heavily on practice for their singles matches than for Proleague.
On May 11 2012 13:22 Befree wrote: I hope everyone will at least watch a single game from both sides. I fear that players who didn't play SC1, might be deterred by the 14 year old graphics, though, and that those who haven't played SC2 might be deterred by.. well look at 80% of the responses in most threads on this topic..
I really hope that it goes well, though! Think if a few days after, we all of a sudden have a bunch of people picking up SC1/BW who had never tried it, and a bunch of others giving SC2 a try. And more enthusiasm and joy are infused into the Starcraft universe as a whole!
This is one of the most unique periods in StarCraft history, and I really hope you guys all don't waste it out of stubbornness. Let's just all take a break from our negative emotions for one night and see what happens. Going in with an attitude of "this is the dumbest thing of all time, I can't believe kespa is so stupid" will only hurt yourself. If on the following day you conclude "that was the dumbest proleague plan of all time, kespa is so stupid," that's okay. At least you gave it a chance.
I think one of the most interesting things for me will be seeing whom they send out for each game. I'm kind of thinking it'll be more like B-team players who they've had playing SC2 longer that will play that, and the top players will still play BW.I hope it doesn't get too much like this, though.
I want to see something along the lines of Flash/Action/Hoejja BW and then like Stats/CrazyHydra/Mind on SC2. Rather than some people who didn't even play last season taking all the SC2 spots.
This is the night when I return home for the summer. What a joyful night it will be . Time for CJ to get crushed! (But not really because I want to see 7 games.. )
Oh and I forgot to mention, hurray for ace matches!!
I dont think that there will be many B-Teamers. The way I understand the system is that if you get to play BW on one day, you have to play SC2 the next match. This should guarantee A-Teamer action; otherwise B-Teamers would have to play BW the next match.
what a terrible stupid system. sorry lee young ho you haven't a-moved enough pretty shit to justify us televising you playing one of the most compelling competitive games out there at the highest level anyone in history has ever played it
On May 10 2012 16:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I really need to know how we should make LR threads to work though.
We all are human beings you know?
Bw veterans can gently help sc2 guys with the best game ever made, and sc2'ers help bw'ers with Sc2
lol yea... that is exactly what is going to happen T.T I wish but no. I'm thinking two threads will be req. Flame wars will be huge unless the mods REALLY smash the hammer down.
On May 10 2012 16:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I really need to know how we should make LR threads to work though.
We all are human beings you know?
Bw veterans can gently help sc2 guys with the best game ever made, and sc2'ers help bw'ers with Sc2
lol yea... that is exactly what is going to happen T.T I wish but no. I'm thinking two threads will be req. Flame wars will be huge unless the mods REALLY smash the hammer down.
Two threads won't stop anything. Everyone will be watching the BW games and thus be in the BW LR flamewarring, and then all the flamewars will stay in the BW thread when the people actually watching the games either leave or move to the SC2 thread.
On May 10 2012 16:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I really need to know how we should make LR threads to work though.
Separate, unless you want to argue with people every other post.
I mean, let's be fair: the SC2 games aren't going to be anywhere near top-caliber, and the more trollish of the SC2 fans will be quick to point that out, while the more trollish of the BW fans will be all, "This game sucks, why the fuck am I watching this shit?" which will just encourage way more hostility than is necessary between the two fanbases. Unless you want mass ban reports from both sides, in which case I encourage it.
On May 10 2012 16:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I really need to know how we should make LR threads to work though.
Separate, unless you want to argue with people every other post.
I mean, let's be fair: the SC2 games aren't going to be anywhere near top-caliber, and the more trollish of the SC2 fans will be quick to point that out, while the more trollish of the BW fans will be all, "This game sucks, why the fuck am I watching this shit?" which will just encourage way more hostility than is necessary between the two fanbases. Unless you want mass ban reports from both sides, in which case I encourage it.
On May 10 2012 16:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I really need to know how we should make LR threads to work though.
Separate, unless you want to argue with people every other post.
I mean, let's be fair: the SC2 games aren't going to be anywhere near top-caliber, and the more trollish of the SC2 fans will be quick to point that out, while the more trollish of the BW fans will be all, "This game sucks, why the fuck am I watching this shit?" which will just encourage way more hostility than is necessary between the two fanbases. Unless you want mass ban reports from both sides, in which case I encourage it.
Agree with this, and I'm a fan of both games (sacrilege I know). Because of that though, I'm not sure where to turn. I hate the negativity on both sides. Like, I *really* want to see how the players approach SC2, but I'm also worried how all of that affects the BW games.
Either way, 8 hours of Starcraft is awesome I don't care what game it is.
One thread. It's time for the ridiculous BW vs. SC2 debates to end. The future has been decided. Yes it is sad and frankly I came into this scene far later than I would have liked (although I bought BW back when I was... 10? 11 years ago? jesus) and I love BW (probably more so than SC2 even though I play SC2 far more seriously than BW) but I think a combined thread would be better. IF it's aggressively moderated. I know that's probably the last thing the TL moderators want to do with their lives (especially when 8+ hours of Starcraft is on the table) but I do love both games and I think there are enough people that love both games that we can have civil conversations within a thread on the internet. Crazy I know.
I haven't read all the posts but I want to put in my opinion. Obviously, we're not going to see the same level of entertaining games that BW brought. But these players, before coming out in their BW games, practiced 5+ years to get to where they are now. And as many pointed out, SC2 is a different game and they won't be able to create incredible games with just 2-5 months of practice. But I think we just need to give it time for the meta-game to create itself.
Sure I would have loved to see BW continue to strive, but that's just not viable anymore. KeSPA, as much crap as we give them, is composed of highly qualified people in fields of business, and if they say it's not viable to go 100% BW, then, you might as well take their word for it. Although I hate to see BW Proleague turn into memories, I look forward to seeing the meta-game for SC2 progress and develop as the stars of BW take on the challenge.
Of course, I'm not belittling the achievements of the current SC2 stars, but the fact is, SOME of them WERE B-Teamers/Practice partners when apart of BW. So one can only beg the question, had TBLS, and other A-Teamers, moved over to SC2 when it first came out, would the meta-game be far more interesting than it is now? Again, I'm not saying that it isn't interesting, but would it have been MORE interesting?
I still think this mixing is the stupidest idea ever, but I'll probably watch the first day. If KESPA wants to switch to SC2 then fine, their choice, but as I've said for the nth time, I'd rather have it be a clean break and total switch over than this PL. If KESPA wants to get as many BW followers to SC2, having awful BW games and awful SC2 games will just make everyone angrier. Even Flash in his recent interview admitted that games of either will not be up to standard (in his case, and I'm assuming the same for all progamers; also given the overall game quality of ODT) and seriously, a whole season of this? I think KESPA is betting a lot on having a full day of BW and SC2 games (not to mention a whole season), because it has the potential to both be either a new dawn for them or backfire horribly, but I'd rather they just went all-in on SC2 because we all know there's no way that they will air BW again after this. Just my two cents.
I won't lie, reading all of this news about the media day and Flash SC2 FPVODs and stuff makes my insides twist because this is really it. I used to visit TL multiple times a day and now I only do so a few times because I find it too painful. Like others in this thread, I was thinking of stopping PL watching altogether, but I don't think I can stay away. I'll just watch the first day and see what happens.
On May 12 2012 22:21 Jealous wrote: KOREAN COMMENTARY FOREVER! No English in my BW please, no caster has matched the Koreans imo.
Well noone forces you to watch english commentary, but it would be nice if there was any
GOM does.
The international scene may be the Eldorado koreans seek, but the problem of getting late to the party is you're stuck with the leftovers, would be tough to have the premier ESPORTS tournament in the world casted by Moletrap. MLG could help much in putting forth a new generation of professional casters, but they'll have to put aside their love of Tastosis & Day9 to make that happen, that is, step up as an organization that doesn't depend on star casters to be popular.
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
Well we need an dedicated Korean BW organisation to do this kind of sabotage, it will be cool if that happens for real :D I wonder if sc2 was first 3 sets then how many people will come to watch since sc2 is no big deal in Korea and deciding matches are still bw, i imagine half of the crowd comming for the bw matches only
On May 10 2012 16:38 S2Glow wrote: i just hope after watching 3 bw game. all the crowd leave! that will be epic!!!!
Well we need an dedicated Korean BW organisation to do this kind of sabotage, it will be cool if that happens for real :D I wonder if sc2 was first 3 sets then how many people will come to watch since sc2 is no big deal in Korea and deciding matches are still bw, i imagine half of the crowd comming for the bw matches only
If Sc2 was first 3 sets, then we should get them to change the start time from 12KST to 13/14KST. The sc2 players still play at 12KST though.
I will stay in the BW section of the LR for Proleague with ez if it will be splitted. Better hype, better atmosphere and people appreciate most of the players and their efforts. But the biggest thing is our "team culture" that is like the biggest factor for me personally why I'm so into BW pro scene. Cheering for KT and not just Flash, or cheering for SKT1 and not just Bisu makes it so much more fun and easier to connect with other people here on TL. It also creates this fun and awesome rivalry and it just adds to the whole experience.
You don't have this in SC2 because the teams are so spread out and GSTL ain't that great, nor the teams. The few teams I can think of that has a big "fanbase" that actually cheers for all the players in the team is Liquid, EG and some what SlayerS (most because it's the team of BoxeR, but most people are still just BoxeR, MMA and CoCa fans). So in SC2 people are just about single players instead. An example of this I think is good is the Flash Fanclub that got created recently and SC2 fans that haven't even seen Flash play BW or an official SC2 game are now "fans". But they aren't fans of the human Flash, or the player Flash, they are fans of the hype. And during all this hype you see and hear nothing about KT Rolster (the other players, coaches, managers) just Flash Flash Flash.
It's almost like I would want the hybrid Proleague to have one mixed LR thread so we could show them why Proleague is awesome and why cheering for a team is so much fun and better than just being a fan of some player that is playing the same race as you!
this...will be one of the greatest starcraft tanks of my watching career 8+ hours of my beloved pros playing the 2 of the greatest games ever to be created (in terms of competition THE greatest games)
Should there be a thread in SC2 section too? I personally know some people don't follow Brood War section thus can't hear about this. (Not talking about mixed bw and sc2 tournament accouncement etc. , talking about the actual tournament itself and it's schedule)
Good to see Ace still participating. This looks like a good thing for BW after all. A little adjustment here and there, but this could only be a great start for (ex)BW progamers as they conquer the world SC2.
On May 13 2012 04:03 JieXian wrote: at least it will be free.
...... right?
Probably, since the OGN LoL english stream is streamed for free on twitch.tv.
Is that an offical stream or just a restream?
Official, with OGN-hired english casters afaik.
Supposedly Moletrap (former BW caster on Violetak, and wildly unpopular SC2 caster) and Torch (former SC2 pro-gamer. Don't know if he has BW history, but probably?).
On May 13 2012 04:38 Gosi wrote: I will stay in the BW section of the LR for Proleague with ez if it will be splitted. Better hype, better atmosphere and people appreciate most of the players and their efforts. But the biggest thing is our "team culture" that is like the biggest factor for me personally why I'm so into BW pro scene. Cheering for KT and not just Flash, or cheering for SKT1 and not just Bisu makes it so much more fun and easier to connect with other people here on TL. It also creates this fun and awesome rivalry and it just adds to the whole experience.
You don't have this in SC2 because the teams are so spread out and GSTL ain't that great, nor the teams. The few teams I can think of that has a big "fanbase" that actually cheers for all the players in the team is Liquid, EG and some what SlayerS (most because it's the team of BoxeR, but most people are still just BoxeR, MMA and CoCa fans). So in SC2 people are just about single players instead. An example of this I think is good is the Flash Fanclub that got created recently and SC2 fans that haven't even seen Flash play BW or an official SC2 game are now "fans". But they aren't fans of the human Flash, or the player Flash, they are fans of the hype. And during all this hype you see and hear nothing about KT Rolster (the other players, coaches, managers) just Flash Flash Flash.
This is all very true. If the SC2 forum had team badges on posts like here perhaps that would change, but you're right that it is one of the things I always look forward to.
I doubt most SC2 fans even know what team Flash even plays for.
The only thing I'm really excited to see is if there is anyone who can actually be dominant in both BW and SC2.
There's talks of people walking out after the BW portion, but we won't really know until the season is under way.
Honestly now, how many of the fangirls are really going to care what game Bisu plays? I don't expect to see a ton of people leave but neither do I expect to see a ton of people increase going, besides foreigners living in Korea.
There are a lot of rumors circulating the gamer rings that the fans might just leave during the sc2 matches and come back during the BW matches to prove a point. Most here are still pretty hell-bent on the BW scene.
Honeslty, I hope that is the way it goes, and they realize "hey, there is still ALOT of support for Sc:Bw ((even if mostly just S.Korea)), mabey we should stop the tom foolery". Im tired of people trying to force this game that claims to be starcraft too on me.. Let me have my Sc:Bw, and I ill be content.. Otherwise, I have alot of down time, and I might actually get around to fooling around with styrofoam+gas+glass bottle =/
On May 10 2012 17:18 geno wrote:
There is something a bit ominous about the wording chosen here, lol.
Can't wait for the landmark case of Slayers`Brown vs Board of Shield Battery to overturn the idea of separate but equal threads.
LoL that is absolutly funny as all get out.. But they might see what has happend because of decisions like this in the past 0.o and decide to keep it seperate but equal, instead of claiming equality, but giving one more benefits than the other.. Last thing we need right now is a bunch of starcraftToo players running around claiming their game would be better if it wasnt for the evil Sc:Bw scene holding a good game down..
On May 14 2012 20:53 Sayle wrote: I will be restreaming opening day with English commentary, assuming there is an easily accessible Korean stream and they don't mind me restreaming.
This will include commentary of the SC2 games as well.
Sayle hwaiting! I wonder how you (and all of us too) will get through the sc2 bits on the opening day and beyond. I hope you'll continue to commentate the bw bits at least
I'd like to see just one LR thread in the "BW" section for now, until the forums are re-organized. After all, these are our beloved BW players playing at least half BW. My impression is that people who joined the community for SC2 and have been turned off by the high "wall" of BW can be better motivated to discover the predecessor of their game if the LR is in the BW section.
On May 13 2012 17:36 MyLastSerenade wrote: omg this is going to be so weird, bw and sc2...
Yeh @_@
Wonder how Korea will react.
There's talks of people walking out after the BW portion, but we won't really know until the season is under way.
i'll support them if they do so. if there is any way for me to sign a name or whatever to show our support to them, please let me know. they are not alone, they are not the last group of people loving bw. foreigners like us and a lot of chinese still enjoy playing bw.
Even if some of the fans start leaving after the BW sets, OGN would never show that on TV. Just like how OGN and MBC never focused on fans who held up savembcgame protest cards during matches.
I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
If ratings drop heavily too they might have to do something about it. Plus I hope fomos interviewers and such would mention it. That being said, I'm not convinced it will happen (internet warriors and so on...). Classy about those signs btw. Edit : if there is even 5% chance that it will help bw (and if ratings get sufficiently different I could see it happen), I'll take it.
On May 15 2012 01:03 Ryo wrote: Even if some of the fans start leaving after the BW sets, OGN would never show that on TV. Just like how OGN and MBC never focused on fans who held up savembcgame protest cards during matches.
Just see the audience before and after. Of course OGN will try its best to hide that, but you cannot hide the fact that a whole chunk of people left the stadium for long. If anything, people there will take videos and pictures of people leaving in droves.
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Also, it'll look silly when you come in again for the BW half of the next game, since it's a marathon. Which may be why it's a marathon, actually.
On May 15 2012 01:03 Ryo wrote: Even if some of the fans start leaving after the BW sets, OGN would never show that on TV. Just like how OGN and MBC never focused on fans who held up savembcgame protest cards during matches.
Just see the audience before and after. Of course OGN will try its best to hide that, but you cannot hide the fact that a whole chunk of people left the stadium for long. If anything, people there will take videos and pictures of people leaving in droves.
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
On May 15 2012 01:03 Ryo wrote: Even if some of the fans start leaving after the BW sets, OGN would never show that on TV. Just like how OGN and MBC never focused on fans who held up savembcgame protest cards during matches.
Just see the audience before and after. Of course OGN will try its best to hide that, but you cannot hide the fact that a whole chunk of people left the stadium for long. If anything, people there will take videos and pictures of people leaving in droves.
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
I'll also add to my edit that doing nothing certainly won't help bw. Edit : imho the perfect solution would be to boycott PL as a whole, and only go to OSL. As the game will probably suck in both games, shouldn't be too hard to do...
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
Yup.
with no players there would be no game
Come the end of this season, there will BE no pro BW players anyway.
And yes, the post above is right. How can players play a game that has not been made yet?
On May 15 2012 01:05 Fionn wrote: I can see leaving the SC2 sets if you don't want to, but doing it in some sort of protest isn't going to help anyone. Protesting SC2 won't save Brood War. It'll just hurt both.
Hurting BW? It is already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead.
If this happens, it will show that fans care about the game more than the players.
On May 14 2012 20:53 Sayle wrote: I will be restreaming opening day with English commentary, assuming there is an easily accessible Korean stream and they don't mind me restreaming.
This will include commentary of the SC2 games as well.
On May 14 2012 20:53 Sayle wrote: I will be restreaming opening day with English commentary, assuming there is an easily accessible Korean stream and they don't mind me restreaming.
This will include commentary of the SC2 games as well.
Awesome! will definitely hop on your stream. looks like it'll be a long night for me Ü
On May 10 2012 16:16 sCCrooked wrote: It probably makes more sense to separate them. Not to mention it might (probably futile attempt) to split up the sc2 fans and the BW fans to deter arguments.
honestly put them together.. its the same damn tournament =S or at least have two of the same thread with the same OP updating it by copy pasta.. i watch both <.<
I'm making a huge post for the SC2 forum about Opening Day that will also serve as LR. Someone can copy paste and edit it for BW forum, if they'd like.
On May 20 2012 04:22 Zhang wrote: No writeup from the TL writers?
Patience, my friend. I have barely slept these last couple of days, slaving away in the fiery pits of hell known as the TL Writers Chamber of Death. You will see the fruits of our labor soon enough. A monster, forged of blood and sweat and sacrificed virgins to the gods of Starcraft.
On May 20 2012 05:00 Ejohrik wrote: Is there any stream of this?
I must admit, I have never watched live BW aside from WCG. Better (almost too) late than never, right?
Im wondering the same thing. Is there a Stream of this or a link to wherever it will be shown. Is OGN doing it?
The official Korean stream is broadcast on the Esportstv Youtube channel, and Korean vods will be uploaded there as well. http://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV
Some Teamliquid users will provide restreams. Look for those in the sidebar when the games start.
The official OGN English stream will not be ready on opening day, but they are planning on setting it up later. OGN's English stream for their LoL tournament was broadcast on their twitch.tv and own3d.tv channels, so I expect the same here.
They should really adjust the hours to the ones GSL uses. Start at 15/16 at the earliest, play till it's done. All games know staying up a bit later isn't much for a problem. Having to get up at 5 am to watch the first sc1 pros going sc2 live really takes the joy out of it for me, I'll just be half dead and fall asleep!
On May 20 2012 04:22 Zhang wrote: No writeup from the TL writers?
Patience, my friend. I have barely slept these last couple of days, slaving away in the fiery pits of hell known as the TL Writers Chamber of Death. You will see the fruits of our labor soon enough. A monster, forged of blood and sweat and sacrificed virgins to the gods of Starcraft.
Oh good, I was worried that you guys would skimp on the virgins.
On May 20 2012 06:16 GIhi wrote: They should really adjust the hours to the ones GSL uses. Start at 15/16 at the earliest, play till it's done. All games know staying up a bit later isn't much for a problem. Having to get up at 5 am to watch the first sc1 pros going sc2 live really takes the joy out of it for me, I'll just be half dead and fall asleep!
Funnily enough, these Proleague hours are more convenient for American users like me. The Proleague games start at a convenient 10 pm for me, yet GSL games usually start at 4 am in my time zone.
On May 20 2012 06:16 GIhi wrote: They should really adjust the hours to the ones GSL uses. Start at 15/16 at the earliest, play till it's done. All games know staying up a bit later isn't much for a problem. Having to get up at 5 am to watch the first sc1 pros going sc2 live really takes the joy out of it for me, I'll just be half dead and fall asleep!
On May 20 2012 04:22 Zhang wrote: No writeup from the TL writers?
Patience, my friend. I have barely slept these last couple of days, slaving away in the fiery pits of hell known as the TL Writers Chamber of Death. You will see the fruits of our labor soon enough. A monster, forged of blood and sweat and sacrificed virgins to the gods of Starcraft.
When can we approximately expect the masterpiece? I might set the alarm just to read it :D
On May 20 2012 08:31 Eee wrote: Hi! How long does it usually take before the korean vods are up on youtube? does someone on TL post spoiler-free links?
I don't agree with the SC2 game as an ace... will make for very boring ace matches, since they're not near GSL level yet, BW is a lot more exciting and that's coming from more of a SC2 follower.
On May 20 2012 04:22 Zhang wrote: No writeup from the TL writers?
Patience, my friend. I have barely slept these last couple of days, slaving away in the fiery pits of hell known as the TL Writers Chamber of Death. You will see the fruits of our labor soon enough. A monster, forged of blood and sweat and sacrificed virgins to the gods of Starcraft.
On May 20 2012 06:16 GIhi wrote: They should really adjust the hours to the ones GSL uses. Start at 15/16 at the earliest, play till it's done. All games know staying up a bit later isn't much for a problem. Having to get up at 5 am to watch the first sc1 pros going sc2 live really takes the joy out of it for me, I'll just be half dead and fall asleep!
muahahaha,welcome to our world!
Oddly enough, this'll be the only Starcraft of either kind I'll regularly be watching live (albeit maybe not much today specifically because I'm on vacation), because the hours are super-convenient for USA, especially evening shift like I'm on . It's enough to make up for not being able to go to Barcraft.
On May 20 2012 04:22 Zhang wrote: No writeup from the TL writers?
Patience, my friend. I have barely slept these last couple of days, slaving away in the fiery pits of hell known as the TL Writers Chamber of Death. You will see the fruits of our labor soon enough. A monster, forged of blood and sweat and sacrificed virgins to the gods of Starcraft.
But the resolution is also so bad, at least in Sayle's restream which I'm watching. Also every VOD has a crappy solution. Would be the time to inprove that with the new game.
Those SC2 matches were the worst things I've ever seen. That Fantasy match was amazing. And then follow it up with a game that completely cripples the pros' skills and has the AI play for them? And that bullshit with forcefielding a ramp so that there was no physical way for JD to even play the game at that point? What a goddam disgrace. Having an ability that makes it 100% impossible to do ANYTHING is the height of imbalance, and should not be allowed in any kind of true competition.
On May 20 2012 13:43 CruelZeratul wrote: But the resolution is also so bad, at least in Sayle's restream which I'm watching. Also every VOD has a crappy solution. Would be the time to inprove that with the new game.
Pokebunny's stream is in significantly higher resolution. Hope this helps!
On May 20 2012 13:43 CruelZeratul wrote: But the resolution is also so bad, at least in Sayle's restream which I'm watching. Also every VOD has a crappy solution. Would be the time to inprove that with the new game.
Pokebunny's stream is in significantly higher resolution. Hope this helps!
On May 20 2012 20:02 GIhi wrote: SC2 matches were entertaining so far, although protoss seems so imba because they don't know how to counter the style :p
Aye, feels like this is the perfect example of showing that Protoss is easier to play / get a hold of in SC2.
well that happens when pros have to play 2 games and honestly i think they dont care about bw too much anymore you can win the match with only winning sc2 matches and bw wont be played next season anyway
someone knows how many koreans watched it? it was hard to see how many people were in the audience
This is garbage. SC2 is eye-rape with all the bright colors and clumpy unit design, and the level of play was really low overall. I should have just turned off after Fantasy's game. It seems like he's the only one who still takes BW seriously.
I am a big SC2 fan but seeing my favorite players from BW getting raped by protoss simply because they did not have enough time to figure out XvP is so retarded ... it took the general SC2 scehne 1 year to figute out ZvP to the extend where Zergs had more then 30% winrate...
well i hope it´ll get better cuz if not all of em will play protoss
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
On May 20 2012 23:23 pStar wrote: Lol BW fans seem pretty mad now.
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
On May 20 2012 23:23 pStar wrote: Lol BW fans seem pretty mad now.
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
Basically, stop crying.
Dont forget Motivate / Lizzy
I didn't even think they were particularly good. Effort is the only one in my opinion who would even be close to Code A caliber right now.
On May 20 2012 23:23 pStar wrote: Lol BW fans seem pretty mad now.
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
Basically, stop crying.
This. A big part of the BW community is acting like a kid who just had to replace their old ragged toy with a new one. I have been following both the scenes since SC2 came out and I honestly don't understand how everyone bashes on SC2 so hard while it's just as entertaining and exciting. To the people posting useless comments like: Void ray imba, Forcefield op, omg psi storm warp gate herp; I'd say grow up and get used to it...
On May 20 2012 23:23 pStar wrote: Lol BW fans seem pretty mad now.
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
Basically, stop crying.
Dont forget Motivate / Lizzy
I didn't even think they were particularly good. Effort is the only one in my opinion who would even be close to Code A caliber right now.
Hmm I don't know. I've seen some Lizzy games from both replays and player streams and he usually show really solid games already against current top gamers from SC2. Have in mind that this was his PL debut and all.
I also think Jangbi looked the most refined today. Still hard to judge tho because his opponent was pretty bad and it was only one game. Effort looked promising too but in his game vs Flash he was able to do whatever he wanted because Flash didn't do anything to put pressure and do what he did is something most zergs at enough high level would be able to do. In the ace match against Lizzy he showed strong macro but then again, lacking experience made him do some bad decisions that cost him the game.
On May 20 2012 23:23 pStar wrote: Lol BW fans seem pretty mad now.
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
Basically, stop crying.
This. A big part of the BW community is acting like a kid who just had to replace their old ragged toy with a new one. I have been following both the scenes since SC2 came out and I honestly don't understand how everyone bashes on SC2 so hard while it's just as entertaining and exciting. To the people posting useless comments like: Void ray imba, Forcefield op, omg psi storm warp gate herp; I'd say grow up and get used to it...
It's not. Why don't you grow up and understand how a great league was gutted to fulfill the fantasies of SC2 fans and people are reasonably disappointed and angry?
On May 20 2012 23:23 pStar wrote: Lol BW fans seem pretty mad now.
Maybe if you all realized that these games were of abysmal quality and not representative of SC2. Most master and GMs in would have been better players than all of the BW guys (apart from Effort who was actually really damn imprssive)
Also, I have absolutely no idea why the players couldn't figure out how to play v Protoss. You can't just sit there and let Protoss get their army which is what all of them did.
Basically, stop crying.
This. A big part of the BW community is acting like a kid who just had to replace their old ragged toy with a new one. I have been following both the scenes since SC2 came out and I honestly don't understand how everyone bashes on SC2 so hard while it's just as entertaining and exciting. To the people posting useless comments like: Void ray imba, Forcefield op, omg psi storm warp gate herp; I'd say grow up and get used to it...
It's not. Why don't you grow up and understand how a great league was gutted to fulfill the fantasies of SC2 fans and people are reasonably disappointed and angry?
i agree that Bw fans have a right to be dissapointed and angry but it annoys me when most of the people in this forum call it terrible when the games they watched today were of a terrible terrible standard. Hell, playhem dailies have some higher quality SC2 games than were shown today.
Its not as if its the SC2 fans fault about this whole thing though. All BW fans rage seems to be directed to SC2 when it should in fact be directed as KeSPA....
I only saw the last half of it and I'm coming from the sc2 scene, so I can't say anything about the BW games, but SC2 was bit disappointing. The players were awesome for the short period of time they were practicing, but high-level SC2 is something totally different. Furthermore it's saddening to see how a lot of the BW fans think THIS is SC2 how it's played right now ...
On May 20 2012 23:51 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: I only saw the last half of it and I'm coming from the sc2 scene, so I can't say anything about the BW games, but SC2 was bit disappointing. The players were awesome for the short period of time they were practicing, but high-level SC2 is something totally different. Furthermore it's saddening to see how a lot of the BW fans think THIS is SC2 how it's played right now ...
If you haven't worked it out yet we're also pissed off at the BW games.
The games were utter shit. I can't believe people praising fantasy vs Jaehoon game. How the hell did Jaehoon just let all 4 vultures through that fkn wall. Don't even give me crap about PvX, anyone who has followed BW knows that recently Jaehoon is better than that.
On May 20 2012 23:26 TaShadan wrote: iam not mad about the bad sc2 performance but iam mad about blizzard killing broodwar pro scene
Blizzard didnt kill anything, ratings for BW in Korea have been on a decline even before SC2 came out. The audience it used to have just evaporated. Its why teams had more and more problems getting sponsors, SC2 had nothing to do with it.
If anything Blizzard's push for SC2 has allowed these progamers who have invested a big portion of their lives on (a) RTS game a way to earn a paycheck the next 4-5 years with SC2. Most of them would have nothing meaningful to go back to.
well thats only one side of the truth. sc2 was failing in korea compared to LoL thats why blizzard "forced" kespa to switch kespa has not much to say here cause they lost the last sue to blizzard (about the bw streaming rights) so without blizzard kespa is not able to broadcast broodwar
The only thing that impressed me last night was the fact that the LR threads weren't full of arguing. Even the BW games were stale and bad. I hope whoever wanted this format is happy.
On May 21 2012 00:14 TaShadan wrote: well thats only one side of the truth. sc2 was failing in korea compared to LoL thats why blizzard "forced" kespa to switch kespa has not much to say here cause they lost the last sue to blizzard (about the bw streaming rights) so without blizzard kespa is not able to broadcast broodwar
and yes all games were bad bw and sc2
it was the lawsuit and the matchfixing scandal that drove us into this position, sponsors are not coming up anymore because of that.
My bet is that they will change the requirement of playing both games each week in a couple of weeks from now. They can't afford having stale and bad games in both BW and SC2 for 5 months. Plus the pressure on the players practicing two games and showing good games and results in both games will just cause to much stress in the end.
On May 20 2012 22:52 gCgCrypto wrote: I am a big SC2 fan but seeing my favorite players from BW getting raped by protoss simply because they did not have enough time to figure out XvP is so retarded ... it took the general SC2 scehne 1 year to figute out ZvP to the extend where Zergs had more then 30% winrate...
well i hope it´ll get better cuz if not all of em will play protoss
TLPD charts shows that even during the worse of the worse of the roach hydra corruptor vs. colossus voidray stalker era, PvZ never went above 55% for P.
And yeah, the games were terrible as I predicted. This might be the final blow to Starcraft in Korea before LoL takes over.
Guess Yellow finally got one thing right as N.1 this time.
Such a pathetic sight... First day is a disaster. If it wont change fast, I'm going to join the assholes from gamereplays.org and watch some Company of Heroes Vods as soon as OSL is over.
On May 21 2012 00:42 hitthat wrote: Such a pathetic sight... First day is a disaster. If it wont change fast, I'm going to join the assholes from gamereplays.org and watch some Company of Heroes Vods as soon as OSL is over.
I don't blame sc2 at all, Im a fan of both games so thats ok .. what I hate is the stupid hybrid PL producing such a low quality of games because of players being forced to play both games,... as I said a lot of times I'd kill me but I'd rather see my heros playing only sc2, in that way they'd be at least able to put all their focus and show good games.. sigh
Man, so many people acting so sour and mad today in this thread. :/
The following is what happened:
All fan favourites were forced to practice for BW and SC2. Its opening day for PL in Korea. Of course they want to play the "big" guys in the sc2 sets and get viewers and get fans/hype. These guys are clearly practicing both games. Flash has amazing sc2 macro but man, he really has a long way to go in sc2 yet before he is a real powerhouse.
Alternatively, they really need to keep flash as a bw player on KT because, well hes a BW beast.
So here is how I see the first day: its all about appearances and optics. They play everyone they want to play on the different games regardless of skill because they want people to watch. In a few weeks chances are flash will be on the BW squad and not be playing SC2 unless he really is the best SC2 player on KT.
They can't do two games. The coaches will hopefully realise this and create a BW squad, and an SC2 squad and then these squads do only one game all day for the remainder of PL so we actually see good BW games and good SC2 games. The first team to figure this out and do it fully committed will win PL.
As an SC2 fan, the only one who has impressed me so far was Effort and even then Flash wasn't a solid enough opponent to make me think he challenged Effort properly in SC2. If Effort had pulled that big attack against someone like MarineKing Prime (Assuming MKP even LET effort sit there as long as he did unharassed and unpressured) he would have split and effort would have lost his whole army and MKP would have still had half of Flash's army on the ground to attack back at effort.
Horrible games, Lol is going to be the biggest toy of Kespa easier, This hybrid thing is disrespectful with the fans and players, the only real RTS that I enjoy in a stream is BW been playing by the Koreans, now it is like watching the foreign scene.
On May 21 2012 01:17 ZeromuS wrote: They can't do two games. The coaches will hopefully realise this and create a BW squad, and an SC2 squad and then these squads do only one game all day for the remainder of PL so we actually see good BW games and good SC2 games. The first team to figure this out and do it fully committed will win PL.
You do know that they have to alternate between both games, right? They are forced to practice BW and SC2 which makes creating squads impossible.
On May 21 2012 01:17 ZeromuS wrote: They can't do two games. The coaches will hopefully realise this and create a BW squad, and an SC2 squad and then these squads do only one game all day for the remainder of PL so we actually see good BW games and good SC2 games. The first team to figure this out and do it fully committed will win PL.
They can't do that. Players have to alternate between BW and SC2. I think KT coach didn't feel that Flash was ready to play SC2 yet (notice that he was put 3rd - which was a nice strategy). Right now flash will have to play sc2 in 2 weeks (or once again put as 3rd sc2 player) and hope two first KT players win their games. For now we know that for KT Lizzy looks rather good in Sc2 (very nice games vs BByong and Effort) so for now it looks like he will fill in for the sc2 ace match. Basically right now the way to win in PL is to: a) always send the good sc2 player to play BW match 3 and vice-versa b) be lucky enough to be playing on the last day of PL play-week. This way you can adjust your roster for sniping the next week matches since you should have a rough outline of what players will be send.
On May 21 2012 00:42 hitthat wrote: Such a pathetic sight... First day is a disaster. If it wont change fast, I'm going to join the assholes from gamereplays.org and watch some Company of Heroes Vods as soon as OSL is over.
you would be the only asshole on gamereplays.org
You're clearly not familiar with those guys, haha ;P First day seems to confirm that hybrid doesnt work.
On May 20 2012 23:26 TaShadan wrote: iam not mad about the bad sc2 performance but iam mad about blizzard killing broodwar pro scene
Blizzard didnt kill anything, ratings for BW in Korea have been on a decline even before SC2 came out. The audience it used to have just evaporated. Its why teams had more and more problems getting sponsors, SC2 had nothing to do with it.
If anything Blizzard's push for SC2 has allowed these progamers who have invested a big portion of their lives on (a) RTS game a way to earn a paycheck the next 4-5 years with SC2. Most of them would have nothing meaningful to go back to.
Not really true. There will be a fair number of players who will either lose their jobs/retire or receive a significant salary reduction. Applies to BW coaches as well.
On May 21 2012 00:14 TaShadan wrote: well thats only one side of the truth. sc2 was failing in korea compared to LoL thats why blizzard "forced" kespa to switch kespa has not much to say here cause they lost the last sue to blizzard (about the bw streaming rights) so without blizzard kespa is not able to broadcast broodwar
and yes all games were bad bw and sc2
it was the lawsuit and the matchfixing scandal that drove us into this position, sponsors are not coming up anymore because of that.
Well, there was a chance to save the scene. But a typhoon and Kespa's incompetence ruined that chance. Also, gaming in Korea just isn't as well regarded as it was 3-4 years ago.
On May 21 2012 00:14 TaShadan wrote: well thats only one side of the truth. sc2 was failing in korea compared to LoL thats why blizzard "forced" kespa to switch kespa has not much to say here cause they lost the last sue to blizzard (about the bw streaming rights) so without blizzard kespa is not able to broadcast broodwar
and yes all games were bad bw and sc2
Funny, nobody lost in the lawsuit, and KeSPA was streaming BW without Blizzard's permission during the lawsuit.
Blizzard kept the SC BW scene alive by not allowing Kespa and OGN to do SC2. If it wasn't for Blizzard, they would have made a switch way way earlier, like right away. Not to mention it lost Blizzard a shitton of money.
Thank you Blizzard for yout stupidity. Honestly, thank you.
Well there was some funny games, but they are really behind skillwise, they have the build orders and mechanics, but either dont understand the strategy or cannot execute them. I dont know if this is overall a good idea or not, only future can tell. I hope for the best and try to enjoy the games aslong as possible
It was pretty much what everyone should have expected. The SC2 games were terrible because these guys are nowhere near professional level and when all you have is mechanics and reaction time, Protoss roflstomps everything because there's not nearly as much strategy or micro required to win. I wouldn't expect things to improve until the full switch happens.
On May 21 2012 04:31 Miyoshino wrote: Blizzard kept the SC BW scene alive by not allowing Kespa and OGN to do SC2. If it wasn't for Blizzard, they would have made a switch way way earlier, like right away. Not to mention it lost Blizzard a shitton of money.
Thank you Blizzard for yout stupidity. Honestly, thank you.
What an uninformed post. So it was stupid from Blizzard to not let BW die earlier? Kespa wasn't exactly eager to switch to SC2.
I actually enjoyed the show for what it was. My favorite sport on display with my favorite teams and players. Watching FBH play as protoss felt great because it's nice to see him perform again. Though I will miss his terran. There were some great games today and they had some fun with SC2. It wasn't MVP vs. Squirtle skills, but it was just as entertaining (ok, slightly less entertaining than game 5 ^^).
I think the top 10 BW players should keep playing broodwar to give their team some free wins It was a pretty big mistake to send Flash and Jaedong to play Sc2 today imo. Flash isn't nicknamed God for his Sc2 carrier... ( yet ^^ )
I read a few posts on this thread which state the teams will divide BW players nad SC2 players to allow concentrated practice. However, I remember reading somewhere that a player must play SC2 if s/he played a match of BW already. I assumed this is to prevent specialized players who will be at a great disadvantage when Proleague turns completely SC2 (sadly).
On May 21 2012 02:28 RonNation wrote: too many qq'rs after one night of matches
indeed. i for one was entertained
+1 I also thought it was fun to watch. Watching some of my BW heros figuring out a new game was entertainment enough for me.
It's interesting to see what these guys can do after practicing the game for just a few weeks. I expect them to kick some serious butts when they start to practise SC2 fulltime.
I wonder how they will be integrated into the international scene + GSL/GSTL though.
On May 21 2012 05:21 algue wrote: I think the top 10 BW players should keep playing broodwar to give their team some free wins It was a pretty big mistake to send Flash and Jaedong to play Sc2 today imo. Flash isn't nicknamed God for his Sc2 carrier... ( yet ^^ )
You can't do that. If you are set to play BW one week you have to play SC2 before you can play BW again. Thats why this format is getting alot of flak because the quality of the games will suffer alot on both ends. It would indeed have been the best if the teams just made their own inhouse BW and SC2 teams for this Proleague season.
I dreamed about Flash's face expression when effort killed him off after 14 minutes gameplay. So ya, if nothing else it was entertaining watching top Broodwar players being slaughtered in SC2. And let's not even talk about JD's zerg play. Will be interesting to see where the Broodwar A-teamers will be in half a year though.
This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying "lol @ all the qq butthurt fans", my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "yeeeeeehaw! take it, bitch, take it."
But like an abused housewife I'll keep coming back to watch anyway. Maybe even when the league is drunk with SC2, I'll check it out in the vain hope that it won't be as bad as I fear it would be, but then it's inevitably just "Oh god JD's massing one unit that doesn't do anything except shoot and is getting raped by a ball of other generic units oh god" "nooo flash, effort please stop...please."
On May 21 2012 05:43 reincremate wrote: This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying lol @ all the qq butthurt fans, my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "hoooweee take it, bitch, take it."
haha :D i think it's a great format. It creates a lot of cool stories!
On May 21 2012 05:43 reincremate wrote: This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying "lol @ all the qq butthurt fans", my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "yeeeeeehaw! take it, bitch, take it."
You managed to make 0 sense in that post, quite an achievement.
On May 21 2012 05:43 reincremate wrote: This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying "lol @ all the qq butthurt fans", my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "yeeeeeehaw! take it, bitch, take it."
But like an abused housewife I'll keep coming back to watch anyway. Maybe even when the league is drunk with SC2, I'll check it out in the vain hope that it won't be as bad as I fear it would be, but then it's inevitably just "Oh god JD's massing one unit that doesn't do anything except shoot and is getting raped by a ball of other generic units oh god" "nooo flash, effort please stop...please."
Finally someone explains it in terms I can understand :D GSL & GSTL should definitely play brood war as well
On May 21 2012 04:27 blubbdavid wrote: SNM, what are the korean netizen's reactions?
I'm also interested in knowing this.
Would have a lot more say about this if there were more comments, I'm trying to find more ATM but I'm too lazy to (enjoying home =P)
General overview: Some fans are asking OGN to start 16 stream, others are saying that if they give SC2 a chance, people will start liking it. That's on top of people saying: Those who cheered on today for SC2 only did so because of the teams/players. But stating this out of 8 comments (about) isn't saying much from fomos. I'll try to find more comments later.
The article written by fomos, however, states that there weren't as many fans who visited the opening matches for Season 2 compared to Season 1. We should just move onto LoL which secured 8k+ audiences at the live finals (jking about moving on, but yes LoL Champions finals had 8k+ audience)
On May 21 2012 04:31 Miyoshino wrote: Blizzard kept the SC BW scene alive by not allowing Kespa and OGN to do SC2. If it wasn't for Blizzard, they would have made a switch way way earlier, like right away. Not to mention it lost Blizzard a shitton of money.
Thank you Blizzard for yout stupidity. Honestly, thank you.
What an uninformed post. So it was stupid from Blizzard to not let BW die earlier? Kespa wasn't exactly eager to switch to SC2.
What a horrible post.
Of course they wanted to run a SC2 tournament. You act like Blizzard asked OGN to run a SC2 tournament but they refused.
Uninformed? Where you even here when these events unfolded? I remember being there at that time and explaining people how things were and being thanked for informing them.
Blizzard did try to kill SC BW but instead they protected SC BW from having to compete with SC2. You can talk about Gom but Gom doesn't matter. Now with SC in this season of Proleague it is the first time people get to decide what game they like more.
It's not like SC2 was a big contender against BW in the first place. You make it sound like BW was on live support and good old Blizz supported the game by suing Kespa.
On May 21 2012 01:39 palexhur wrote: Horrible games, Lol is going to be the biggest toy of Kespa easier, This hybrid thing is disrespectful with the fans and players, the only real RTS that I enjoy in a stream is BW been playing by the Koreans, now it is like watching the foreign scene.
LoL in Korea is not ran by KeSPA but individually by OGN.
I said what I said. I didn't say what I didn't say. Why was SC2 no contender at all?
Blizzard didn't sue Kespa, rofl. They sued the only two mainstream esports channels in the world for being the only two esports channels in the world. The effect? BW continued but no SC2 esports except on some obscure internet stream.
On May 21 2012 05:43 reincremate wrote: This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying lol @ all the qq butthurt fans, my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "hoooweee take it, bitch, take it."
haha :D i think it's a great format. It creates a lot of cool stories!
Cool stories at the expense of game quality. Foreigner esports is a joke. PL is done for.
On May 21 2012 07:39 Miyoshino wrote: I said what I said. I didn't say what I didn't say. Why was SC2 no contender at all?
Blizzard didn't sue Kespa, rofl. They sued the only two mainstream esports channels in the world for being the only two esports channels in the world. The effect? BW continued but no SC2 esports except on some obscure internet stream.
Kespa didn't run SC2 tournaments because it wasn't really popular in Korea, not much to it beyond that.
On May 21 2012 07:39 Miyoshino wrote: I said what I said. I didn't say what I didn't say. Why was SC2 no contender at all?
Blizzard didn't sue Kespa, rofl. They sued the only two mainstream esports channels in the world for being the only two esports channels in the world. The effect? BW continued but no SC2 esports except on some obscure internet stream.
Kespa didn't run SC2 tournaments because it wasn't really popular in Korea, not much to it beyond that.
It's amazing, I laughed so much with by.hero's impromptu nexus positioning. I only regret they're calling it Proleague, that is supposed to be a serious tournament - it wouldn't hurt the transition to call it something else. Now it may suffer the same fate of SC2 - it's fun but they try to push it by attaching it to a strong brand and then it looks terrible by comparison.
Imagine if starcraft 2 had been released as warcraft 4. Now think of how dumb it sounds having a combined league for both games. That coach was right when he said the only reason this is happening is because both games have "starcraft" in the titles.
And what happened to using the English client? Why did they change their minds about that? I had finally learned enough Korean to understand some of what they were saying, but now I have no clue what units they're talking about.
On May 21 2012 05:21 algue wrote: I think the top 10 BW players should keep playing broodwar to give their team some free wins It was a pretty big mistake to send Flash and Jaedong to play Sc2 today imo. Flash isn't nicknamed God for his Sc2 carrier... ( yet ^^ )
You can't do that. If you are set to play BW one week you have to play SC2 before you can play BW again. Thats why this format is getting alot of flak because the quality of the games will suffer alot on both ends. It would indeed have been the best if the teams just made their own inhouse BW and SC2 teams for this Proleague season.
The quality of the BW will be what suffers most because I see no reason for any player to practice it, assuming they are out of OSL, because the BW set is basically meaningless and the fact that a full switch is coming in the fall. You can win every single match purely on sc2 which is why I think if they were serious about having good BW this season then they would have had ace match alternate but the purpose of the BW this season isnt for it to be good its for it to be there next to the sc2 to ease the transition for the fans.
It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
yea opening day was pretty awful. I wonder if this horrible league could of been prevented had blizzard given kespa an SC2 lisence right when it started? BW had more sponsors back then so most of the teams wouldn't want to switch, and kespa could of started a separate SC2 league. maybe then we would have a strong BW and SC2 league right now instead of a strong LoL league and a shitty SC2/BW hybrid thing.
Not surprised that none of the BW players are good at SC2. It's going to take them awhile to catch up.
And lol @ the SC2 hate. I seem to remember SC1 not being particularly amazing right out the box either, give me a break. The BW pros looked at least a year behind the GOM players, I didn't see much of any of the metagame. When they catch up, the games will be good. Until then the only interesting thing will just be seeing how they approach the game.
It's not that they are new to the game, it's the fact that they have to split their time preparing for both games which are tremendously different.
Also, it's been over 2 years since star2 has come out. It's not 'right out of the box'. That kind of talk really irks me.
You won't see great games this proleague as the players have to spend time playing this game, which some of them don't even think is that great. The BW games are half assed, and the star2 games are not entertaining because 1) they haven't played for a long time, and 2) they don't have the time to practice as BOTH games are important, and players HAVE to play both games.
KeSPa is making it not entertainable, Starcraft 2 nor Starcraft 1 are making the games boring. What they're asking out of the players is simply not possible.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
On May 21 2012 11:13 CaucasianAsian wrote: It's not that they are new to the game, it's the fact that they have to split their time preparing for both games which are tremendously different.
Also, it's been over 2 years since star2 has come out. It's not 'right out of the box'. That kind of talk really irks me.
You won't see great games this proleague as the players have to spend time playing this game, which some of them don't even think is that great. The BW games are half assed, and the star2 games are not entertaining because 1) they haven't played for a long time, and 2) they don't have the time to practice as BOTH games are important, and players HAVE to play both games.
KeSPa is making it not entertainable, Starcraft 2 nor Starcraft 1 are making the games boring. What they're asking out of the players is simply not possible.
The thing is though why would the players out of the OSL put anywhere near the same amount of time into BW as SC2. Winning the BW would be nice but if you can be strong at SC2 you can win the match anyway strictly on having a stronger ace.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
Reason enough to hate this new format is less Stork. And he is forbidden from playing BW in the next Khan match, despite not playing at all. Stork playing BW is what sustains my Starcraft interest, so I am most displeased with this current format and the end of BW in the coming months.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
from what I understand, it's not so much the team sponsors, but the event/league sponsors who want a more international audience. although it's been a long time since any league has had a sponsor that would have any sort of non-korean appeal. probably pringles? or does korean air count? lol
On May 21 2012 05:43 reincremate wrote: This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying "lol @ all the qq butthurt fans", my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "yeeeeeehaw! take it, bitch, take it."
Is this a Starcraft thread or a script for an episode of Oz!? You got me laughin though!
On May 21 2012 05:43 reincremate wrote: This format is discrimination against BW. They should make the GSL or GSTL mixed leagues as well. B-team level BW can be entertaining sometimes. They should have them play LoL too. That would be of great benefit to the Cult of Esports.
And to anyone saying "lol @ all the qq butthurt fans", my anus is like "NOOO BLIZZARD NOOO KESPA NOOOOO" and Blizzard and Kespa are just like "yeeeeeehaw! take it, bitch, take it."
Is this a Starcraft thread or a script for an episode of Oz!? You got me laughin though!
lol the best post so far in this thread I laughed a minute, jajaajjja
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
from what I understand, it's not so much the team sponsors, but the event/league sponsors who want a more international audience. although it's been a long time since any league has had a sponsor that would have any sort of non-korean appeal. probably pringles? or does korean air count? lol
Also there's the exposure it gives to Korea, which doesn't happen if no one else plays the game (not even in korean-run WCG)
I suppose using the english client would imply the korean one is bad, and would not be in line with GSL and overall Blizzard's marketing.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
It's business. They see higher potential in SC2, but we'll have to see how it turns out. I personally think it's a mistake, but maybe I'm biased. I just think SC2 doesn't have the appeal to attract a non-gamer audience.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
Could you post statistics?, because what i have read is the contrary, when I see the PC bangs numbers (those are important in Korea) I see that SC2 has going down to the 24th place, when one year ago was top ten, SC2 is not that "new" game, 2 years is a lot of time in a pc game, and foreign market is now stale or it seems that way when you dont have new big peaks in streams viewers and less people playing the game in the ladders, this move by Kespa is a desperate move to try to keep a flag game, trying to emulate the scene that they achieved with BW, I dont think it is going to be possible at all, but lets see.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
Could you post statistics?, because what i have read is the contrary, when I see the PC bangs numbers (those are important in Korea) I see that SC2 has going down to the 24th place, when one year ago was top ten, SC2 is not that "new" game, 2 years is a lot of time in a pc game, and foreign market is now stale or it seems that way when you dont have new big peaks in streams viewers and less people playing the game in the ladders, this move by Kespa is a desperate move to try to keep a flag game, trying to emulate the scene that they achieved with BW, I dont think it is going to be possible at all, but lets see.
Correct me if I'm wrong, you need to have bought SC2 to play it in PCBangs. If you're going to buy a $60, then you must have an already good computer, so what's the point of going to a PCBangs? It's not LoL where it's free to play and a team game.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
Could you post statistics?, because what i have read is the contrary, when I see the PC bangs numbers (those are important in Korea) I see that SC2 has going down to the 24th place, when one year ago was top ten, SC2 is not that "new" game, 2 years is a lot of time in a pc game, and foreign market is now stale or it seems that way when you dont have new big peaks in streams viewers and less people playing the game in the ladders, this move by Kespa is a desperate move to try to keep a flag game, trying to emulate the scene that they achieved with BW, I dont think it is going to be possible at all, but lets see.
You should keep in mind, too, that while Sc2 is already 2 years old, it's going to have 2 new expansions coming out, one of those likely at the end of this year. The future potential of Sc2 is still pretty dang big; if it was top 10 last time with close to zero esports influence in Korea (2 years ago), it's going to be higher than that if it gets promoted with Korea's best bw players switching over and with the release of new expansion (new game).
At the arrival of HOTS, everything is likely to change for the Korean sc2 scene. Kespa and the other groups over there are probably banking on that.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
Could you post statistics?, because what i have read is the contrary, when I see the PC bangs numbers (those are important in Korea) I see that SC2 has going down to the 24th place, when one year ago was top ten, SC2 is not that "new" game, 2 years is a lot of time in a pc game, and foreign market is now stale or it seems that way when you dont have new big peaks in streams viewers and less people playing the game in the ladders, this move by Kespa is a desperate move to try to keep a flag game, trying to emulate the scene that they achieved with BW, I dont think it is going to be possible at all, but lets see.
Correct me if I'm wrong, you need to have bought SC2 to play it in PCBangs. If you're going to buy a $60, then you must have an already good computer, so what's the point of going to a PCBangs? It's not LoL where it's free to play and a team game.
I feel like that is a bit of jump, imagine if a PCbang did have SC2 intalled on their PCs (you'd only have to buy one copy to install it on all of the PCs), then people could spend just 60 bucks on an account for the game--rather than 60 and the money for a good computer--then they could play SC2 for less. Granted the PCbang would have to have good computers; and im not sure they do.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again. Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
On May 21 2012 08:22 BrosephBrostar wrote: Imagine if starcraft 2 had been released as warcraft 4. Now think of how dumb it sounds having a combined league for both games. That coach was right when he said the only reason this is happening is because both games have "starcraft" in the titles.
And what happened to using the English client? Why did they change their minds about that? I had finally learned enough Korean to understand some of what they were saying, but now I have no clue what units they're talking about.
The first paragraph of this sums up the problem here perfectly. These games are totally different, they just have the same name.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
Speaking as someone who's watched mostly SC2, I find BW really entertaining to watch. It's a totally different game to me though and I enjoy watching it for different reasons than why I enjoy watching SC2
So does anyone know how about the reception of sc2 PL in Korea? Like, did they just leave during the sc2 games, or find them uninteresting? Or did they enjoy watching sc2? I'm really curious to know.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
I can attest to that. I find the action in SC2 much easier to follow. I'm sure this has to do with playing the game on 1v1 ladder for the last two years and watching every GSL + other tournies since then too. When I watch BW I really don't know how a battle will turn out because I'm not used to watching it.
I honestly think BW is more difficult to follow because in certain situations it's hard to tell what's happening. For example, I understand the awesomeness of BW muta micro, but as a spectator it really sucks not knowing how many mutas someone has. I just feel lost until the final battle and it's like "oh, I guess that guy had more mutas after all". Another example is Psi Storm is kind of awkward in it's animation and it's hard to get a feel for it's true AOE range. Another example is, as far as I can tell, observers can't select more than one unit at a time? Therefore the spectator can only see one unit's health bars at any time, which is a step backwards when you're used to seeing multiple units' health bars during an SC2 battle. Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think observers can see what's upgrading during the game which makes me feel really lost not knowing what's happening. Same thing for dropships - it doesn't seem you know what's inside unless you see it load or unload.
I'm sure long-time BW fans are really used to those things, but I don't understand how that should be easier for me as a new BW fan when compared to SC2?
On May 21 2012 11:13 CaucasianAsian wrote: Also, it's been over 2 years since star2 has come out. It's not 'right out of the box'. That kind of talk really irks me.
Ok lets be fair. I could go on a page long rant about some people BW elitism but ill just put a simple fact. You sir is comparing vanilla SC2 to BW. That is a bit unfair.Now compare SC2 to vanilla SC1 and say that the second (sc1 vanila in this case) is vastly superior to SC2.
Sadly we won't be able to compare SC2 with all of its expansions to BW - simply put it BW will be long dead by the time all sc2 expansions will be out (at least on the pro level) due to the Blizzard marketing strategy... Expansion every 2 year to continue to milk the consumers.
On May 21 2012 11:13 CaucasianAsian wrote: Also, it's been over 2 years since star2 has come out. It's not 'right out of the box'. That kind of talk really irks me.
Ok lets be fair. I could go on a page long rant about some people BW elitism but ill just put a simple fact. You sir is comparing vanilla SC2 to BW. That is a bit unfair.Now compare SC2 to vanilla SC1 and say that the second (sc1 vanila in this case) is vastly superior to SC2.
Sadly we won't be able to compare SC2 with all of its expansions to BW - simply put it BW will be long dead by the time all sc2 expansions will be out (at least on the pro level).
The big problem with the "compare SC2 to vanilla SC1" is that the two games started at a completely different level. SC2 built upon a decade of RTS experience and play (plus the success of BW), so it's reasonable to expect the game to be significantly better than SC1 was at launch.
On May 21 2012 11:13 CaucasianAsian wrote: Also, it's been over 2 years since star2 has come out. It's not 'right out of the box'. That kind of talk really irks me.
Ok lets be fair. I could go on a page long rant about some people BW elitism but ill just put a simple fact. You sir is comparing vanilla SC2 to BW. That is a bit unfair.Now compare SC2 to vanilla SC1 and say that the second (sc1 vanila in this case) is vastly superior to SC2.
Sadly we won't be able to compare SC2 with all of its expansions to BW - simply put it BW will be long dead by the time all sc2 expansions will be out (at least on the pro level) due to the Blizzard marketing strategy... Expansion every 2 year to continue to milk the consumers.
Ok lets be fair.
I could go on a page long rant about some people having misguided ideas about BW elitism but ill just put a simple fact.
You sir is comparing vanilla SC2 to BW. That is a bit unfair. We should judge BW easier because it came out earlier. In any case BW is better?( assumption because for some reason you're afraid to compare BW and vanilla sc2, one could go on a rant about how sc2 could be considered an expansion on top of BW but nevermind)
On a more serious notes SC2 is not popular in Korea because people just don't like it. It has nothing to do with marketing. Do you guys even know that GOM Player is SK's most popular media player? GOM should at least be dominating the online market ( because GOM isn't just some random name) but it isn't. People just don't like your favourite game.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
I think you're skipping over the key point here. BW wasn't in decline because everyone was tired of BW, they were over with 1v1 strategy games in general. Switching from one game to a less popular game in the same genre is just confusing.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers.
It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
I can attest to that. I find the action in SC2 much easier to follow. I'm sure this has to do with playing the game on 1v1 ladder for the last two years and watching every GSL + other tournies since then too. When I watch BW I really don't know how a battle will turn out because I'm not used to watching it.
I honestly think BW is more difficult to follow because in certain situations it's hard to tell what's happening. For example, I understand the awesomeness of BW muta micro, but as a spectator it really sucks not knowing how many mutas someone has. I just feel lost until the final battle and it's like "oh, I guess that guy had more mutas after all". Another example is Psi Storm is kind of awkward in it's animation and it's hard to get a feel for it's true AOE range. Another example is, as far as I can tell, observers can't select more than one unit at a time? Therefore the spectator can only see one unit's health bars at any time, which is a step backwards when you're used to seeing multiple units' health bars during an SC2 battle. Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think observers can see what's upgrading during the game which makes me feel really lost not knowing what's happening. Same thing for dropships - it doesn't seem you know what's inside unless you see it load or unload.
I'm sure long-time BW fans are really used to those things, but I don't understand how that should be easier for me as a new BW fan when compared to SC2?
The appeal of BW is that the lack of complete information makes certain actions even more amazing; or certain problems even more glaring.
Mutas - you can tell by the color of the shadow in a muta clump how much mutas each one has, the darker the shadow, the more mutas in it; and green goo from exploding Scourge = hits.
What having only one unit's bars and selection do is give you the spectator experience of... "Are those marines all in the red because of Plague and thus easily killed by Zerglings?" "Is that Dragoon ball fresh, or is it vulnerable to massed tank fire?" "How much troops does he have in that dropship group? Will it be enough to break the tank line?" "Will he have storms finished in time to stop this Hydrabust?" and for upgrades in buildings: "Will Siege finish in time before the Dragoons pop that bunker/are in enough numbers they can gamble on killing that first Siege Tank/Does the Terran have Spider Mines to stop this DT rush?"
That uncertainty is part of what makes BW watching good; because we don't know whether BeSt has another 20 zealots queued up to swarm a Terran's tank push, or if Stork already finished researching Dragoon range or even if Jaedong already finished researching Lurkers to fend off the bio push at his third; or even if Horang2 still has Scarab ammo for his Reaver. Contrast that to SC2, where seeing the production tab means you immediately know that MKP has 13 marines in production in addition to those he just stimmed so they could catch up to his push, or that Thermal Lance is still not complete, but there are already six Vikings to hit those two Collosi. This removes potential excitement from the game that BW was able to provide in spades.
On May 21 2012 17:34 TrainSamurai wrote: People just don't like your favourite game.
I have no favourite game. If the match is entertaining and the casters (or caster) make it interesting is fine by me. There are times when despite some good Sc2 tournaments going on at the same time i tune in into SPL or other korean rebrodcast, or even ISL or Gambit Cup - cause there could be some nice matches there (and by nice i don't always mean good matches)
For instance. What got me into watching BW was a game (god knows who was playing or what tournament it was) casted by Sayle - when a Prottos went mass fast scouts (later with corsairs with d-web support) versus a zerg that went mass hydra and won. After that i watched the PL rebrodcasts (had a blast watching them and tried watching previous TSL's (sorry didn't find them entertaining).
Now back to the dual format proleague. Actually the basic idea behind the format is rather good - the problem is with execution of it by the team's coaches. Right now i can say that KT coach (my personal opinion after first day) - found the solution to this PL format (well theirs second match should confim that thesis) - Flash playing 3rd match at SC2 was a dead give away that the coach didn't want to field him in sc2 yet but was forced too. Still people should rejoice since flash should play BW against next team - and we should hopefully get a good game.
Right now Kespa pro's have no idea about early game harass - this is one of the things that is missing - they have rather nice mechanics but they don't feel the game - they still play it BW-like. This leads to some strange games...Like the first and only time when a player wins a televised game with mass carriers versus a zerg.
On May 21 2012 10:27 ninini wrote: [quote] SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers.
It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer.
Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players.
Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely.
Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players.
The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two.
On May 21 2012 12:15 BrosephBrostar wrote: [quote]
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers.
It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer.
Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players.
Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely.
Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players.
The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two.
Something is wrong Every Sc2 team would kill to add flash to their roster !
On May 21 2012 18:45 BrosephBrostar wrote: I think you're skipping over the key point here. BW wasn't in decline because everyone was tired of BW, they were over with 1v1 strategy games in general. Switching from one game to a less popular game in the same genre is just confusing.
Source? I'd really be curious to read that because having spent some time studying the situation, I NEVER EVER read anything about that .... so got any proof or is it just fanboy's speculation?
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
Is this really reported in the Korean media? Because it kind of doesn't make sense.
For one thing, the big sponsorships for kespa teams right now are Korean-centric. Samsung is the only company among the big sponsors that really benefit from an international scene. Everyone else, SK Telecom, STX, Woongjin, etc. would not make any money from some random guy in the US knowing their brand. Great, I know Woongjin make great rice cookers, and I can get nice cell phone service from SKTelecom. And unless I decide to live in Korea for whatever reason, I'll never spend a dime on either company.
In addition, OGN is a TV company. Yes, I know. There's internet streaming and everything, but OGN makes a lot of its money selling advertising space. And that money is going to go down if TV viewership goes down. Sure, they might make some of that back with foreign advertising of some kind. But it would certainly require some out of the box thinking and creating an infrastructure to attract fans and sponsors. Basically they're giving up certain money for uncertain money.
If Korean fans don't want SC2, then Kespa is looking at losing most of its current sponsors. And they'd have to find new ones. Unless the well is dry for BW right now, this is a huge risk they have to take.
On May 21 2012 12:15 BrosephBrostar wrote: [quote]
I'm confused though, why do companies like Korean Telecom care about non-Korean viewers? And if we really are the priority then why did they decide not to use the English game client? That part is especially confusing since bw fans should be more familiar with English names too.
I can understand stupid things happening for stupid reasons, but this whole thing is a big mystery to me.
They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers.
It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer.
Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players.
Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely.
Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players.
The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two.
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
Is this really reported in the Korean media? Because it kind of doesn't make sense.
For one thing, the big sponsorships for kespa teams right now are Korean-centric. Samsung is the only company among the big sponsors that really benefit from an international scene. Everyone else, SK Telecom, STX, Woongjin, etc. would not make any money from some random guy in the US knowing their brand. Great, I know Woongjin make great rice cookers, and I can get nice cell phone service from SKTelecom. And unless I decide to live in Korea for whatever reason, I'll never spend a dime on either company.
In addition, OGN is a TV company. Yes, I know. There's internet streaming and everything, but OGN makes a lot of its money selling advertising space. And that money is going to go down if TV viewership goes down. Sure, they might make some of that back with foreign advertising of some kind. But it would certainly require some out of the box thinking and creating an infrastructure to attract fans and sponsors. Basically they're giving up certain money for uncertain money.
If Korean fans don't want SC2, then Kespa is looking at losing most of its current sponsors. And they'd have to find new ones. Unless the well is dry for BW right now, this is a huge risk they have to take.
The truth of the matter is that sponsers want keep up with the current generation of esports, bw is only played pro in korea whereas sc2 is player pro globally. Sponsers obviously wnat their players to be out there known globally, kespa players will be entering western tournaments and such.
On May 21 2012 17:34 TrainSamurai wrote: People just don't like your favourite game.
I have no favourite game. If the match is entertaining and the casters (or caster) make it interesting is fine by me. There are times when despite some good Sc2 tournaments going on at the same time i tune in into SPL or other korean rebrodcast, or even ISL or Gambit Cup - cause there could be some nice matches there (and by nice i don't always mean good matches)
For instance. What got me into watching BW was a game (god knows who was playing or what tournament it was) casted by Sayle - when a Prottos went mass fast scouts (later with corsairs with d-web support) versus a zerg that went mass hydra and won. After that i watched the PL rebrodcasts (had a blast watching them and tried watching previous TSL's (sorry didn't find them entertaining).
Now back to the dual format proleague. Actually the basic idea behind the format is rather good - the problem is with execution of it by the team's coaches. Right now i can say that KT coach (my personal opinion after first day) - found the solution to this PL format (well theirs second match should confim that thesis) - Flash playing 3rd match at SC2 was a dead give away that the coach didn't want to field him in sc2 yet but was forced too. Still people should rejoice since flash should play BW against next team - and we should hopefully get a good game.
Right now Kespa pro's have no idea about early game harass - this is one of the things that is missing - they have rather nice mechanics but they don't feel the game - they still play it BW-like. This leads to some strange games...Like the first and only time when a player wins a televised game with mass carriers versus a zerg.
You know dam well what I meant when I said your favourite game. People don't like sc2 and that is all there is to it.
The dual format sucks. Have u read the OSL interviews? If not high quality games then I don't know what the hell you people want out of a pro scene.
@Morfildur You're also making the assumption that the skill level will rise linearly which is very debatable itself. It isn't like the meta game shifted solely because of the players ~.~ so you can't say there will be a 2 year game, it might actually be just a 1 month gap(ignoring things like gaining familarity with the timings etc) depending on Blizzard's patching schedule. Personally I'm doubting Blizzard because they patched the shit out of wc3 and still couldn't get it right. Basically it doesn't matter.
On May 21 2012 13:23 ninini wrote: [quote] They want to expand, but they mainly want to expand in Korea. It's not like they want to abandon Korea and focus on the worldwide audience. They want both. BW is not as big today as it was a few years ago, and even though it's not that bad that it justifies a switch, the greed gets in the way. A businessman doesn't stick with something who's shares have dropped by 20% (or something like that). Instead, they focus on the future product, and in this case they think that the future is in SC2. If we assume that SC2 was a updated clone of BW, then it would be obvious to switch, so if you're a korean businessman, who aren't really familiar with either game, it seems pretty stupid to support BW, and that's why they were having such problems finding sponsors.
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers.
It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer.
Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players.
Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely.
Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players.
The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two.
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
How long do you think would they continue to play BW? Forever? In that case you are living in a dream land. BW is dying and SC2 has only little to do with it, BW managed to do that all by itself.
As for your second point, SC2 players are still improving rapidly - the players of today could beat themselves from 3 month ago 10:0 without breaking a sweat - and they will continue to do so, which means the gap between new SC2 players and SC2 pros will get bigger and bigger. The cap doesn't even matter, it won't get reached any time soon in either game.
Yes, BW pros are amazing at BW... but even a month after the switch they aren't even remotely close to SC2 pros and will need a lot of time to catch up. If they wouldn't switch now they would later need a lot more time to close that growing gap to a point where it can take too much time to be worth the effort.
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
VODs of my English restream with Pokebunny are now up on my youtube channel. I've put them into playlists with anti-spoiler VODs and there is also a spoiler-free VOD post in my PL commentary thread. Thanks to everyone who watched it live!
From now on, I will be casting the regular season matches at a more European-friendly time. This means they will be rebroadcasts from VODs rather than live, but it also means you won't have to wake up at ridiculous hours to watch! These rebroadcasts will be in the TL calendar and the first one is tonight at 19:00 GMT (+00:00). Please see my PL commentary thread for more details.
On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote: I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
That would be so awesome. But to be honest, the only sc2 match up I really like is z v t. So maybe, the "god" of sc2 nestea against the "god" of bw flash? That would make me cum in my pants.
On May 21 2012 13:26 BrosephBrostar wrote: [quote]
But isn't sc2 even worse off in terms of sponsorship in Korea? I don't how forcing people to watch a less popular game is going to accomplish anything.
SC2 still has potential its a new game? Its still a growing market when SC:BW wont get larger by the audience.. dont know how people cant see it.. NEW GAME > OLD GAME
I can see why they would be interested in a game like LoL which seems really popular right now, but jumping to SC2 just doesn't make sense considering its current form.
Well, tell me one other competitive 1v1 strategy game...
Ok, there is Warcraft 3, but that is quite old, too, and won't attract new audience. C&C? Not really competitive.
BW was in a decline for a while now and a complete switch of the current BW players to a totally different game like LoL doesn't make sense, so SC2 is the only option that made any sense. There are no alternatives. Their only other option was to let BW run it's course and once it had died by itself (in about 1-2 years) they could have scrapped the complete strategy section and focussed only on LoL.
They chose the only point in time where a transition was possible - because of HotS coming up and leveling the playing field - to save their strategy section. LotV might come too late to still save anything. Yes, SC2 might not be the game everyone wished it was but who really wants Flash to lose his job completely?
Though i have to say, a Flash,Bisu,Jaedong,FBH,Stork LoL team might be fun to watch, too :p
But Flash is young. It might just be better for him to go to school then drag it out.
Well, if he doesn't like to play SC2 he can quit at any point. If he does, why force him to quit and pursue another career?
I don't think any of the superstars can quit. Kespa needs them to pull this whole thing off. If jaedong suddenly quits programing Team 8 will collapse the day afterwards then domino effect. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for a jobless sea/Jaehoon. They have to play sc2 or else since BW was also having trouble with sponsers.
It was better before, sc2 a small scene that anyone could get into, yes this includes Flash. If anyone wanted to play sc2 they could have easily switched. If the game is good it would have grown naturally. I don't understand why you think BW collapsing means they can't play sc2. That is a fallacy. I see no reason why BW would mean Flash can't still be a progamer.
Lets assume the BW players would all continue playing BW until it collapses in about 2 years (probably sooner): The gap between current BW pros and SC2 pros would be 3 times as large since most new talent will be SC2 players and the current SC2 players will continue to improve at a rapid rate, after all they are already nearing the daily practice level of BW players.
Even Flash would need 2-3 times more practice to get to that skill level than he would now (he himself assumes it will take him a year to reach the current top players) so a switch would basically be impossible for him. Many other current lower tier (lower than Flash/Jaedong) BW players might not be able to catch up at all. The only option for those players would be to either spend a year or two practicing SC2 non-stop without income from BW or SC2 to finally reach the pro level (if ever) or they would have to abandon their careers completely.
Now lets assume Flash (or any other top BW player) would want to switch now and Kespa would stay with BW: Flash would lose his Kespa status immedatly, which means no more money from BW. He would be too weak to compete in SC2, which means no money from SC2. It would take him maybe half a year to finally reach Code A level. Half a year without any income except maybe a low b-teamer team salary. That is not viable for top tier BW players.
The Kespa assisted switch is the only good chance those players have for a long term career in gaming unless the players want to switch to LoL which they could probably learn in a month or two.
If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
How long do you think would they continue to play BW? Forever? In that case you are living in a dream land. BW is dying and SC2 has only little to do with it, BW managed to do that all by itself.
As for your second point, SC2 players are still improving rapidly - the players of today could beat themselves from 3 month ago 10:0 without breaking a sweat - and they will continue to do so, which means the gap between new SC2 players and SC2 pros will get bigger and bigger. The cap doesn't even matter, it won't get reached any time soon in either game.
Yes, BW pros are amazing at BW... but even a month after the switch they aren't even remotely close to SC2 pros and will need a lot of time to catch up. If they wouldn't switch now they would later need a lot more time to close that growing gap to a point where it can take too much time to be worth the effort.
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
Way to break some one's dreams friend the whole shenanigan all started from within us . Savior match fixing scandal and the destruction from within the proleague because young and upcoming stars who pulled viewers and fandom all were involved with the scandal . On top of that blizzard destroying our scene by suing poorly funded mbc game for broadcasting broodwar . As a matter of fact blizzard is one of the greater evil in this whole dark tale of doom and despair that is happening right now .
I haven't seen a game company that destroys it's flagship game just to promote it's another latest game like starcraft . Take a look at how ID handle it's old school game and it's quake franchise they don't go around screwing people for broadcasting and advertising your game which has generated popularity and monetary income for years .
As for your second point, SC2 players are still improving rapidly - the players of today could beat themselves from 3 month ago 10:0 without breaking a sweat - and they will continue to do so, which means the gap between new SC2 players and SC2 pros will get bigger and bigger. The cap doesn't even matter, it won't get reached any time soon in either game.
Well I don't see the point of this, you play the game longer you become better at it . If I look back at my broodwar journey I was a freaking noob when I started playing bw in 2008 and now I am a D+ terran . The question will I destroy the me in 2008 easily ? Obviously yes. I don't know the gap between sc2 players are getting bigger or not for what I know that is if the foreigners don't do something about their skills vigorously our friends from korea will repeat history once again and I welcome that .
Yes, BW pros are amazing at BW... but even a month after the switch they aren't even remotely close to SC2 pros and will need a lot of time to catch up. If they wouldn't switch now they would later need a lot more time to close that growing gap to a point where it can take too much time to be worth the effort.
Only sc2 fans who watch bw at a very late stage would want bw pro's to play sc2 right now and mostly if you ask any bw fans which would they prefer seeing their pro play bw or sc2 ? They will definitely choose the former one and I also would have done the same thing .
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Isn't there a Kespa/MLG partnership? ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336693 ) I at least hope that the BW->SC2 pros will compete at foreign tournaments at some point, too, where they will definitely meet the Code S champions. Just imagine... Flash vs Boxer in MLG Grand Finals in front of a crowd of 20'000 (or however many MLG can attract) people. Maybe even with BW rematch
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Isn't there a Kespa/MLG partnership? ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336693 ) I at least hope that the BW->SC2 pros will compete at foreign tournaments at some point, too, where they will definitely meet the Code S champions. Just imagine... Flash vs Boxer in MLG Grand Finals in front of a crowd of 20'000 (or however many MLG can attract) people. Maybe even with BW rematch
The partnership are mostly like show matches between the bw teams playing sc2 rather than competing directly with gsl skilled players . No need to imagine the last time they did Yellow v Boxer hype match it was terrible because yellow was pretty much new to the game . I don't really care about how many crowds or what MLG does for the game right now because in the end it's got nothing to do with broodwar.
On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote: If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW.
On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote: If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW.
Blizzard sued OGN and MBC for broadcasting BW, and called it a 'illegal leagues'. What sponsors would want to sponsor something like that? Even the company that made the game despises e-sports. The Viewer Number for BW have only started to decline because of the lack of leagues. OSLs taking too slow to start up, failure to find sponsors and the law of not being able to play Battle.net clouded over Korea. Then you got SC2 which even has LESS viewer than BW. Now Kespa is taking a big gamble in SC2, if it succeed, maybe it would rejuvenate the interest in RTS again. If it fails, then RTS gaming is essentially over because Blizzard will have full monopoly over the market and their ability to produce original and creative games is no where up to to par with its peak. Plus with the release of the next WoW expansion, a new MMO, and D3 for patching, their attention is dispersed toward those.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
Is this really reported in the Korean media? Because it kind of doesn't make sense.
For one thing, the big sponsorships for kespa teams right now are Korean-centric. Samsung is the only company among the big sponsors that really benefit from an international scene. Everyone else, SK Telecom, STX, Woongjin, etc. would not make any money from some random guy in the US knowing their brand. Great, I know Woongjin make great rice cookers, and I can get nice cell phone service from SKTelecom. And unless I decide to live in Korea for whatever reason, I'll never spend a dime on either company.
In addition, OGN is a TV company. Yes, I know. There's internet streaming and everything, but OGN makes a lot of its money selling advertising space. And that money is going to go down if TV viewership goes down. Sure, they might make some of that back with foreign advertising of some kind. But it would certainly require some out of the box thinking and creating an infrastructure to attract fans and sponsors. Basically they're giving up certain money for uncertain money.
If Korean fans don't want SC2, then Kespa is looking at losing most of its current sponsors. And they'd have to find new ones. Unless the well is dry for BW right now, this is a huge risk they have to take.
I wouldn't look at team sponsors, since those are relatively stable, although the disbanding of Fox, Oz, and Heroes did weaken the scene.
However, event sponsors seem to be the main reason for this entire SC2 gamble. KeSPA/OGN just has a hard time looking for event sponsors for OSL and Proleague since a lot of companies are reluctant due to match fixing and the IP rights debacle. Consequently, they had to rely on re-using Korean Air via a subsidiary of the company in the form of Jin Air, and now they are using Tving which I heard is part of CJ Group and not really an external sponsor. Plus, Proleague is currently sponsored by SK Planet, which is an internal subsidiary of SK Telecom instead of an external company.
So I think KeSPA is gambling on switching to SC2 to alleviate this drought of event sponsors, possibly getting some international company or a Korean company seeking international attention to sponsor SC2 events.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
That post could've said
"I'm not sure, but I don't think they have progaming licences in SC2"
Which would've been correct without making you condescending jerk.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
They are pro-gamers, because they game professionally, but they don't have licenses. In fact, I believe all the GOM players had their KeSPA licenses revoked.
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Of the games I saw, Jaedong is actually legitimately bad in SC2. Flash was enh at best. But most of the SC2 I saw in proleague wasn't just sub-GSL level, is was fucking comical. The hero[join] game was hilarious, but it was similarly kind of embarrassing. ProLeague really can't get a reputation for bronze-league SC2, but I'm seeing a lot of really weird and wacky not very good games.
Savior match fixing scandal and the destruction from within the proleague because young and upcoming stars who pulled viewers and fandom all were involved with the scandal .
This actually is a major and not-mentioned-enough deal. I walked away from BW for about two years, and I came back, and it's kind of the same names. Soulkey is new (to me, at least), but Fantasy, JangBi, Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong...they were all the top players in 2009 and they're all the top players in 2012
Look at this for a moment. Compare Flash to the other Bonjwas. It's so much bigger and longer, and that graph doesn't even include the 13-game winning streak in the last season of Proleague. You can actually make the argument at this point that Flash has surpassed the title of Bonjwa altogether. In the time Flash has been Bonjwa, Nada rose, Nada fell, there was a period with no really dominant player, Oov rove, and Oov fell. That's insane.
On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote: If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW.
Blizzard sued OGN and MBC for broadcasting BW, and called it a 'illegal leagues'. What sponsors would want to sponsor something like that? Even the company that made the game despises e-sports. The Viewer Number for BW have only started to decline because of the lack of leagues. OSLs taking too slow to start up, failure to find sponsors and the law of not being able to play Battle.net clouded over Korea. Then you got SC2 which even has LESS viewer than BW. Now Kespa is taking a big gamble in SC2, if it succeed, maybe it would rejuvenate the interest in RTS again.
The problem is that the target audience for PL can't play SC2 at all thanks to KeSPA lobbying to have the game rated 18+.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
You're right, in SC2 there is no equivilant to KeSPA or the licence system that BW seems to operate.
If you ask me it's better that way, as it means players are freer to basically do whatever they want without a governing body standing overhead dictating limitations. On the downside though, there's less regulation - and whilst that hasn't come around to bite anyone yet, it may do in future.
Whilst from watching PL yesterday the better organisation of the BW team structure was apparent to me (as a good thing), I am quite happy with how SC2 is run in the broad sense right now. I don't know an awful lot about BW at all (PL yesterday was my first time watching it), but all I can say is that things as they are in the SC2 scene are ok right now in my opinion. My big fear has always been, and remains, that KeSPA's introduction into the scene will change that - I hope it's not the case.
As to the topic of the thread, watching PL yesterday was definately an interesting experience. Admittedly, I found the BW sets quite hard to get into coming from a solely SC2 background - though I hope that'll change in the coming weeks as I watch more - due to the fact that the game is so different. Found it much slower, ponderous, and less "flash in the pan", though I can see some of the appeal to that kind of game. Definately don't know enough to begin judging the quality of the games though, so I'll defer to the judgement of those more knowedgable than I on that one
Re: the SC2, I must admit I was disappointed. With a few exceptions (Jangbi, Lizzy and Effort) the standard of play on show was incredibly poor (and even those three I singled out weren't much better). I was all hyped up to see what the big deal is over the likes of Jaedong and Flash, but Jaedong looked like the worst Zerg I've ever seen play SC2 and Flash got stomped pretty hard too...
Not that that's their fault though. KeSPA should have been well aware what the skill levels were at right now, and should not have made this transition just yet as a result. Not only did it make SC2 look bad yesterday, it made both the gamers and the tournament look bad too. Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
I hope things improve in the coming weeks. As it is, I worry very much for the standard of play that is going to be on show in the KeSPA tournament at MLG in two weeks time...
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
They are pro-gamers, because they game professionally, but they don't have licenses. In fact, I believe all the GOM players had their KeSPA licenses revoked.
Flash said in an interview that he assumes he will need about a year to close the gap to the current SC2 top tier pros. How long do you think he would need to close the gap to the top tier pros of 2 years in the future that spent those 2 years practicing 10 hours a day?
Flash is not worried about this because proleague is played between former bw teams rather than gsl highly skilled players.
Of the games I saw, Jaedong is actually legitimately bad in SC2. Flash was enh at best. But most of the SC2 I saw in proleague wasn't just sub-GSL level, is was fucking comical. The hero[join] game was hilarious, but it was similarly kind of embarrassing. ProLeague really can't get a reputation for bronze-league SC2, but I'm seeing a lot of really weird and wacky not very good games.
Savior match fixing scandal and the destruction from within the proleague because young and upcoming stars who pulled viewers and fandom all were involved with the scandal .
This actually is a major and not-mentioned-enough deal. I walked away from BW for about two years, and I came back, and it's kind of the same names. Soulkey is new (to me, at least), but Fantasy, JangBi, Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong...they were all the top players in 2009 and they're all the top players in 2012
Look at this for a moment. Compare Flash to the other Bonjwas. It's so much bigger and longer, and that graph doesn't even include the 13-game winning streak in the last season of Proleague. You can actually make the argument at this point that Flash has surpassed the title of Bonjwa altogether. In the time Flash has been Bonjwa, Nada rose, Nada fell, there was a period with no really dominant player, Oov rove, and Oov fell. That's insane.
On May 21 2012 20:40 reminisce12 wrote: If there wasnt any pressure from blizz or the western gaming community on kespa to switch, then these guys would still playing bw.. as for bw players having difficulties or as you quote impossible to switch.. are you in dream land? the skill cap for bw will always be higher than sc2, the fact of the matter is bw is an older game and requires much more multitasking to play professionally.
But it's not Blizzard or foreign audiences (as though they've ever had an influence on KeSPA) that is bringing this about but the falling sponsorship and viewer numbers for BW.
Blizzard sued OGN and MBC for broadcasting BW, and called it a 'illegal leagues'. What sponsors would want to sponsor something like that? Even the company that made the game despises e-sports. The Viewer Number for BW have only started to decline because of the lack of leagues. OSLs taking too slow to start up, failure to find sponsors and the law of not being able to play Battle.net clouded over Korea. Then you got SC2 which even has LESS viewer than BW. Now Kespa is taking a big gamble in SC2, if it succeed, maybe it would rejuvenate the interest in RTS again.
The problem is that the target audience for PL can't play SC2 at all thanks to KeSPA lobbying to have the game rated 18+.
I didn't know about SC2 being rated M in SK. Well looks like the results would be very pessimistic. Idk what to think about the contempory standing.
On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote: I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
That would be so awesome. But to be honest, the only sc2 match up I really like is z v t. So maybe, the "god" of sc2 nestea against the "god" of bw flash? That would make me cum in my pants.
well zvt in bw also has a lot more potential for "epic" so i kinda understand
On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote: I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
Later on maybe when the Kespa players have switched better. Currently this would be onesided BW players destroy SC2 player in BW and SC2 players destroy BW players in SC2. Nobody would profit from it.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
I can attest to that. I find the action in SC2 much easier to follow. I'm sure this has to do with playing the game on 1v1 ladder for the last two years and watching every GSL + other tournies since then too. When I watch BW I really don't know how a battle will turn out because I'm not used to watching it.
I honestly think BW is more difficult to follow because in certain situations it's hard to tell what's happening. For example, I understand the awesomeness of BW muta micro, but as a spectator it really sucks not knowing how many mutas someone has. I just feel lost until the final battle and it's like "oh, I guess that guy had more mutas after all". Another example is Psi Storm is kind of awkward in it's animation and it's hard to get a feel for it's true AOE range. Another example is, as far as I can tell, observers can't select more than one unit at a time? Therefore the spectator can only see one unit's health bars at any time, which is a step backwards when you're used to seeing multiple units' health bars during an SC2 battle. Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think observers can see what's upgrading during the game which makes me feel really lost not knowing what's happening. Same thing for dropships - it doesn't seem you know what's inside unless you see it load or unload.
I'm sure long-time BW fans are really used to those things, but I don't understand how that should be easier for me as a new BW fan when compared to SC2?
The appeal of BW is that the lack of complete information makes certain actions even more amazing; or certain problems even more glaring.
Mutas - you can tell by the color of the shadow in a muta clump how much mutas each one has, the darker the shadow, the more mutas in it; and green goo from exploding Scourge = hits.
What having only one unit's bars and selection do is give you the spectator experience of... "Are those marines all in the red because of Plague and thus easily killed by Zerglings?" "Is that Dragoon ball fresh, or is it vulnerable to massed tank fire?" "How much troops does he have in that dropship group? Will it be enough to break the tank line?" "Will he have storms finished in time to stop this Hydrabust?" and for upgrades in buildings: "Will Siege finish in time before the Dragoons pop that bunker/are in enough numbers they can gamble on killing that first Siege Tank/Does the Terran have Spider Mines to stop this DT rush?"
That uncertainty is part of what makes BW watching good; because we don't know whether BeSt has another 20 zealots queued up to swarm a Terran's tank push, or if Stork already finished researching Dragoon range or even if Jaedong already finished researching Lurkers to fend off the bio push at his third; or even if Horang2 still has Scarab ammo for his Reaver. Contrast that to SC2, where seeing the production tab means you immediately know that MKP has 13 marines in production in addition to those he just stimmed so they could catch up to his push, or that Thermal Lance is still not complete, but there are already six Vikings to hit those two Collosi. This removes potential excitement from the game that BW was able to provide in spades.
That's understandable, but I don't think it makes it easier on someone that's primarily an SC2 fan who is used to that kind of information.
I would argue as well that having so much information leads to it's own type of intensity. For example, watching the final few seconds of a crucial upgrade count-down, the very upgrade needed to survive, while (for example) that player is being attacked, can be really intense. A common example too is knowing that a Protoss has *just* started their mothership as the Zerg moves out with infester/broodlord. Will the zerg take full advantage of his timing? How much damage can be done? How will the Protoss maneuver his army? Can he delay the Zerg or distract him?
Again, I do think what you said makes sense and I can say I've experienced such a thing in SC2 so I can relate:
Very intense moment, a completely unknown situation (mass BC/ghost in TvP). I (the casters and audience, too) were pretty unaware of the mothership flanking and of the amount of Void Rays the Protoss had. This definitely made for a really amazing moment. If BW is full of moments like these, I see your point!
With that said, I would say that SC2 doesn't necessarily remove excitement, it just shifts the excitement to a different perspective.
On May 21 2012 18:45 BrosephBrostar wrote: I think you're skipping over the key point here. BW wasn't in decline because everyone was tired of BW, they were over with 1v1 strategy games in general. Switching from one game to a less popular game in the same genre is just confusing.
Source? I'd really be curious to read that because having spent some time studying the situation, I NEVER EVER read anything about that .... so got any proof or is it just fanboy's speculation?
There was an interview with one of the OGN people. According to him the 3 biggest reasons for the decline of BW were the matchfixing scandal, the Blizzard lawsuit, and shift of interest towards mmos. I don't have the link but it was posted here so you should be able to find it if you look.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
On May 21 2012 21:02 inbox24 wrote: I wonder how long it would take to see a decent set of grudge matches; Kespa players versus GOM players. That would be epic to see and something worth paying to watch rather than single battle GOM SC2 games. They could possibly even do both SC2 and BW in separate sets to determine the better all round players.
VERY interesting concept ! Now that I think about it, what better way to promote korean interest in SC2? Actually thats probably the way things are going to turn out once the BW pros have enough time to adjust fully to SC2.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
The Blizzard ladder isn't ICCUP. High rankings are fairly meaningless. Effort looked decent in SC2, and Motive was legit good, but no one else impressed me. Even their mechanics weren't that impressive (compare Effort's creep spread against Flash to what DRG does when he goes unpressured. It's a fairly notable difference).
I mean, I'm sure playing 10 hours a day in the toughest training conditions on earth will have an effect, but let's stop acting like they're good at SC2 currently.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
The Blizzard ladder isn't ICCUP. High rankings are fairly meaningless. Effort looked decent in SC2, and Motive was legit good, but no one else impressed me. Even their mechanics weren't that impressive (compare Effort's creep spread against Flash to what DRG does when he goes unpressured. It's a fairly notable difference).
I mean, I'm sure playing 10 hours a day in the toughest training conditions on earth will have an effect, but let's stop acting like they're good at SC2 currently.
I think Jangbi looked really crisp too even if his opponent sucked ass that game on Cloud Kingdom. Anyway, I think effort will have mad creep soon too. Have in mind that DRG has been spreading creep for like 2 years and effort have done it for a month. It's probably the most difficult thing to train into your brain and get a good flow for it coming from BW zerg. Injects are a bit easier since you trade going back to your bases for sending drones and hotkey units to injecting. ^^
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
The Blizzard ladder isn't ICCUP. High rankings are fairly meaningless. Effort looked decent in SC2, and Motive was legit good, but no one else impressed me. Even their mechanics weren't that impressive (compare Effort's creep spread against Flash to what DRG does when he goes unpressured. It's a fairly notable difference).
I mean, I'm sure playing 10 hours a day in the toughest training conditions on earth will have an effect, but let's stop acting like they're good at SC2 currently.
I think Jangbi looked really crisp too even if his opponent sucked ass that game on Cloud Kingdom. Anyway, I think effort will have mad creep soon too. Have in mind that DRG has been spreading creep for like 2 years and effort have done it for a month. It's probably the most difficult thing to train into your brain and get a good flow for it coming from BW zerg. Injects are a bit easier since you trade going back to your bases for sending drones and hotkey units to injecting. ^^
Oh, I'm sure. Creep spread is just the most visible mechanically difficult thing in SC2, so I harp on it a lot. I'm sure most of the BW players will be great at SC2 by the end of the season, with maybe one or two just not getting it and washing out. I'm just eyerolling at the "Flash is already in MASTER LEAGUE" hype. I mean, I couldn't do it, but the difference between Master League and pros is pretty huge. Sase played a Master league kid in an open tournament, and was able to build literally 17 manner nexuses to wall the opponent in his two bases and it was a bit controversial because people said Sase was being a bully.
BW pros will almost certainly be better than most current SC2 pros before too long, but they're not nearly at that level now, for the most part (Motive might be, he just outclassed BBYong and an impressive one-sided beatdown)
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
The Blizzard ladder isn't ICCUP. High rankings are fairly meaningless. Effort looked decent in SC2, and Motive was legit good, but no one else impressed me. Even their mechanics weren't that impressive (compare Effort's creep spread against Flash to what DRG does when he goes unpressured. It's a fairly notable difference).
I mean, I'm sure playing 10 hours a day in the toughest training conditions on earth will have an effect, but let's stop acting like they're good at SC2 currently.
I think Jangbi looked really crisp too even if his opponent sucked ass that game on Cloud Kingdom. Anyway, I think effort will have mad creep soon too. Have in mind that DRG has been spreading creep for like 2 years and effort have done it for a month. It's probably the most difficult thing to train into your brain and get a good flow for it coming from BW zerg. Injects are a bit easier since you trade going back to your bases for sending drones and hotkey units to injecting. ^^
Oh, I'm sure. Creep spread is just the most visible mechanically difficult thing in SC2, so I harp on it a lot. I'm sure most of the BW players will be great at SC2 by the end of the season, with maybe one or two just not getting it and washing out. I'm just eyerolling at the "Flash is already in MASTER LEAGUE" hype. I mean, I couldn't do it, but the difference between Master League and pros is pretty huge. Sase played a Master league kid in an open tournament, and was able to build literally 17 manner nexuses to wall the opponent in his two bases and it was a bit controversial because people said Sase was being a bully.
BW pros will almost certainly be better than most current SC2 pros before too long, but they're not nearly at that level now, for the most part (Motive might be, he just outclassed BBYong and an impressive one-sided beatdown)
Enlighten me. Why is creep spread hard? I can see how it is marginally harder than manually sending drones to mine in BW (because you have the option to inject or spread right?) Surely that can't be all SC2 has to offer. No idle workers in BW is impressive to me but i don't get excited over it. Why do SC2 fans wet themselves over creep spread?
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
The Blizzard ladder isn't ICCUP. High rankings are fairly meaningless. Effort looked decent in SC2, and Motive was legit good, but no one else impressed me. Even their mechanics weren't that impressive (compare Effort's creep spread against Flash to what DRG does when he goes unpressured. It's a fairly notable difference).
I mean, I'm sure playing 10 hours a day in the toughest training conditions on earth will have an effect, but let's stop acting like they're good at SC2 currently.
I think Jangbi looked really crisp too even if his opponent sucked ass that game on Cloud Kingdom. Anyway, I think effort will have mad creep soon too. Have in mind that DRG has been spreading creep for like 2 years and effort have done it for a month. It's probably the most difficult thing to train into your brain and get a good flow for it coming from BW zerg. Injects are a bit easier since you trade going back to your bases for sending drones and hotkey units to injecting. ^^
Oh, I'm sure. Creep spread is just the most visible mechanically difficult thing in SC2, so I harp on it a lot. I'm sure most of the BW players will be great at SC2 by the end of the season, with maybe one or two just not getting it and washing out. I'm just eyerolling at the "Flash is already in MASTER LEAGUE" hype. I mean, I couldn't do it, but the difference between Master League and pros is pretty huge. Sase played a Master league kid in an open tournament, and was able to build literally 17 manner nexuses to wall the opponent in his two bases and it was a bit controversial because people said Sase was being a bully.
BW pros will almost certainly be better than most current SC2 pros before too long, but they're not nearly at that level now, for the most part (Motive might be, he just outclassed BBYong and an impressive one-sided beatdown)
Enlighten me. Why is creep spread hard? I can see how it is marginally harder than manually sending drones to mine in BW (because you have the option to inject or spread right?) Surely that can't be all SC2 has to offer. No idle workers in BW is impressive to me but i don't get excited over it. Why do SC2 fans wet themselves over creep spread?
It's not THAT hard, but it's one of the few ways in SC2 to mechanically differentiate yourself from other players, and it's very visible.
The reason it's hard is because the creep tumors should be all over the map, and you can't use hotkeys at all (well, you could, but a creep tumor that makes a new one dies, and the hotkey stays on the old tumor, so it's more trouble than it's worth). Thus, every 15-20 seconds, you have to go to all the edges of your creep (and good zergs will be pushing creep down every attack lane at once), grab the tumors, and click a bunch to have them all make new tumors. It's like if you had a couple of factories out randomly in the middle of the map in BW, far away from one another, and you were macroing out of them without hotkeys. Not super super hard, but hard enough that even pros (JULY) can fail at it when there's a whole game going on.
The other reason is simply that Terran and Protoss try to kill off the creep, so having good spread against a good opponent is impressive for that reason as well. It's not THAT crazy, but it's a visible representation of mechanical prowess, and SC2 fans are an excitable bunch.
Creep spread is also, IMO, the best mechanic in SC2, because it's hard, but not for the sake of being hard like no automine or the original stupid-ass gas mechanic would have been. SC2 needs more things like it.
Injects and Chrono Boosts can be kinda hard too, just because you need to keep coming back to your base, but it's not as obvious if a guy's got 50+ energy on all his nexuses as it is if there's no purple on the map.
Ah c'mon, these macro mechanics they put on SC2 are just dumb to no end, and I believe they broken other parts of the game.
imo they just made harass even less important. If losing 3, 4 drones after a harass in BW was a big deal, losing 8-9 in SC2 has less impact once you get your inject larvae running.
Obviously the zerg macro mechanic is way harder than P and T, but it doesn't mean it is good for the game.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
The Blizzard ladder isn't ICCUP. High rankings are fairly meaningless. Effort looked decent in SC2, and Motive was legit good, but no one else impressed me. Even their mechanics weren't that impressive (compare Effort's creep spread against Flash to what DRG does when he goes unpressured. It's a fairly notable difference).
I mean, I'm sure playing 10 hours a day in the toughest training conditions on earth will have an effect, but let's stop acting like they're good at SC2 currently.
I think Jangbi looked really crisp too even if his opponent sucked ass that game on Cloud Kingdom. Anyway, I think effort will have mad creep soon too. Have in mind that DRG has been spreading creep for like 2 years and effort have done it for a month. It's probably the most difficult thing to train into your brain and get a good flow for it coming from BW zerg. Injects are a bit easier since you trade going back to your bases for sending drones and hotkey units to injecting. ^^
Oh, I'm sure. Creep spread is just the most visible mechanically difficult thing in SC2, so I harp on it a lot. I'm sure most of the BW players will be great at SC2 by the end of the season, with maybe one or two just not getting it and washing out. I'm just eyerolling at the "Flash is already in MASTER LEAGUE" hype. I mean, I couldn't do it, but the difference between Master League and pros is pretty huge. Sase played a Master league kid in an open tournament, and was able to build literally 17 manner nexuses to wall the opponent in his two bases and it was a bit controversial because people said Sase was being a bully.
BW pros will almost certainly be better than most current SC2 pros before too long, but they're not nearly at that level now, for the most part (Motive might be, he just outclassed BBYong and an impressive one-sided beatdown)
Enlighten me. Why is creep spread hard? I can see how it is marginally harder than manually sending drones to mine in BW (because you have the option to inject or spread right?) Surely that can't be all SC2 has to offer. No idle workers in BW is impressive to me but i don't get excited over it. Why do SC2 fans wet themselves over creep spread?
For the first tumour you are right it is the option to spread or inject. But when the first tumours are made, then you have to use your queens at the hatchery to inject in time (for perfect macro you only have a timing window of 0.5 seconds to inject, every delay longer than that will hurt your macro. After you ahve made a creep tumour you can copy it after a certain time. And this copy you can copy again. So you have to go all over the front of your creep and copy the creep tumours whos cooldown has expired. Each expansion of the creep is the result of a manual action. Many zergs build a queen more than ahtcheries and use it only to assit creep spread. The terran will usually kill the creep tumours and the zerg has to stay active to remake it. Rallying workers is going back to your base and put them to the mineral lines. Spreading creep is going all over the map and copy idle creep tumours. So basically it is two macro mechanics. Hitting the injects in time and cloning tumours.
On May 22 2012 23:34 fabiano wrote: Ah c'mon, these macro mechanics they put on SC2 are just dumb to no end, and I believe they broken other parts of the game.
imo they just made harass even less important. If losing 3, 4 drones after a harass in BW was a big deal, losing 8-9 in SC2 has less impact once you get your inject larvae running.
Obviously the zerg macro mechanic is way harder than P and T, but it doesn't mean it is good for the game.
Harass in SC2 is important... But the problem the Kespa players shown that they don't know when to harass. The sooner you harass in SC2 its better. Send A (not a move but one frigging single) Marine + scv and you already doing dmg cause the opponent would pull drones fearing bunker rush - if he doesn't pull drones. Hell you have a bunker just send in more marines ^^
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
Oh I agree. I'm sure that given enough time they'll climb up to at least Code A level, maybe higher (depends on the person and how well they adapt to the game I guess).
My point was more that it doesn't really do much good for them right now. Right now, those games were incredibly poor. And those games are what is being advertised by KeSPA. I would question how many fans would understand/accept the 'potential' as a reason to keep watching.
Collectively, audiences don't tend to be too smart (at least here in the UK anyway) - they judge quickly, are slow to rethink, and quick reactions are often very damaging to shows. If the same is true in Korea, and the incredibly low standard of games causes the PL audience to make a judgement about SC2 as a result, how many of them would tune in next season when all they've been shown of the product has been low quality, and as a result they have made a judgement on the game and the standard the tournament would be at?
I would suggest the audience will shrink significantly. Whilst the KeSPA players will get to a high level eventually, I doubt it will be quick enough to make a difference - in many ways it's too late already. KeSPA should not have introduced SC2 until the next PL at the earliest, when they could be sure that the quality of games would be higher. As is, they've done their brand quite significant damage going forward imo.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
Oh I agree. I'm sure that given enough time they'll climb up to at least Code A level, maybe higher (depends on the person and how well they adapt to the game I guess).
My point was more that it doesn't really do much good for them right now. Right now, those games were incredibly poor. And those games are what is being advertised by KeSPA. I would question how many fans would understand/accept the 'potential' as a reason to keep watching.
While normally I'd agree, SC2 fans in particular tend to see the game as a decent-to-good game with a lot of potential (see the common "two more expansions!" and "it's a new game" lines in flamewar threads), so they might be more patient than is normal.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
Oh I agree. I'm sure that given enough time they'll climb up to at least Code A level, maybe higher (depends on the person and how well they adapt to the game I guess).
My point was more that it doesn't really do much good for them right now. Right now, those games were incredibly poor. And those games are what is being advertised by KeSPA. I would question how many fans would understand/accept the 'potential' as a reason to keep watching.
While normally I'd agree, SC2 fans in particular tend to see the game as a decent-to-good game with a lot of potential (see the common "two more expansions!" and "it's a new game" lines in flamewar threads), so they might be more patient than is normal.
This is very true (and evidenced by myself, as I'll be sticking with PL regardless at least for this season to see how it goes), but I thought the point of this whole thing from KeSPA's point of view was to convert the fans of BW over to SC2 for the coming seasons?
Sure some of the people who are already SC2 fans might stay, but won't this whole thing have been a failure if a significant number of the BW fans (or, those who watch the show on TV and thus generate ratings) just turn off because they judge SC2 or the level of competition to be inadequate?
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
Oh I agree. I'm sure that given enough time they'll climb up to at least Code A level, maybe higher (depends on the person and how well they adapt to the game I guess).
My point was more that it doesn't really do much good for them right now. Right now, those games were incredibly poor. And those games are what is being advertised by KeSPA. I would question how many fans would understand/accept the 'potential' as a reason to keep watching.
While normally I'd agree, SC2 fans in particular tend to see the game as a decent-to-good game with a lot of potential (see the common "two more expansions!" and "it's a new game" lines in flamewar threads), so they might be more patient than is normal.
This is very true (and evidenced by myself, as I'll be sticking with PL regardless at least for this season to see how it goes), but I thought the point of this whole thing from KeSPA's point of view was to convert the fans of BW over to SC2 for the coming seasons?
Sure some of the people who are already SC2 fans might stay, but won't this whole thing have been a failure if a significant number of the BW fans (or, those who watch the show on TV and thus generate ratings) just turn off because they judge SC2 or the level of competition to be inadequate?
That's what I fear...
Hell, even BW fans might turn off during BW given the fall in the quality of the games... I for one don't stay up till 3AM neither wake up 6AM to watch games live.
I find no motivation anymore to endure a fucked up sleeping schedule... all that is good is gone.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
I can attest to that. I find the action in SC2 much easier to follow. I'm sure this has to do with playing the game on 1v1 ladder for the last two years and watching every GSL + other tournies since then too. When I watch BW I really don't know how a battle will turn out because I'm not used to watching it.
I honestly think BW is more difficult to follow because in certain situations it's hard to tell what's happening. For example, I understand the awesomeness of BW muta micro, but as a spectator it really sucks not knowing how many mutas someone has. I just feel lost until the final battle and it's like "oh, I guess that guy had more mutas after all". Another example is Psi Storm is kind of awkward in it's animation and it's hard to get a feel for it's true AOE range. Another example is, as far as I can tell, observers can't select more than one unit at a time? Therefore the spectator can only see one unit's health bars at any time, which is a step backwards when you're used to seeing multiple units' health bars during an SC2 battle. Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think observers can see what's upgrading during the game which makes me feel really lost not knowing what's happening. Same thing for dropships - it doesn't seem you know what's inside unless you see it load or unload.
I'm sure long-time BW fans are really used to those things, but I don't understand how that should be easier for me as a new BW fan when compared to SC2?
See that's funny because I think the exact opposite. I find SC2 incredibly hard to view when they have all the healthbars on because that's all I can see. An entire screen of green/yellow/red lights. All the units get covered up and it's impossible to tell what's happening in the battle. Battle of the Healthbars is what I call it. I guess people like it because they keep demanding for healthbars on, but to me it's just like watching a screen of decreasing numbers which would be about as exciting. Except green lights are a little more flashy.
As for no unit tab. That's probably more a personal thing, but I love the story telling aspect this allows for the commentator. Too little information and you're in the dark- having unit supplies and resources is good. But noticing that the factory shop is spinning then lends itself to predictions whether it will be siege, fast fultures or mines.
There's also incredible tension built when you see the Templar Archive at work so your presume storm is on the way. You see the Protoss retreating, retreating, biding it's time. And you're asking when is storm coming? When's it coming? Is it coming? Then boom, the screen get's covered it in storms and it's super exciting. I guess I can see why people like the unit tab, but I prefer the middle ground of knowing a bit, but not too much.
The observer also needs to be much more active in story telling. Rather than the a little icon appearing telling you that an armoury is being built and that's all, the observer needs to go to the base to show you. So it forces a little more camera movement to tell the whole story. Same with unit production- to pop back and see zealots and high templar piling out of the gateways or masses of dragoons. Rather than a little icon switch, the observer will show you the huge zealot lines that are crossing the screen to reinforce.
On May 22 2012 00:20 therockmanxx wrote: GSL players are progammers? I mean Do they have a license?
I am very uninformed, don't quote me on this, but in this huge SC2 horrible mess I don't think they have any sort of organization like KeSPA which requires progaming licenses.
Really not sure how they expect to get people to keep following them next season if they're effectively advertising "KeSPA adventures in Bronze League".
They're all pretty much Korean Masters with a couple of GM's at this point after around 2 months or less practice versus players who've got experience from the beta onwards. The game knowledge might not be there yet but the raw mechanics, multitask, reaction times and map awareness promise great things to come.
Oh I agree. I'm sure that given enough time they'll climb up to at least Code A level, maybe higher (depends on the person and how well they adapt to the game I guess).
My point was more that it doesn't really do much good for them right now. Right now, those games were incredibly poor. And those games are what is being advertised by KeSPA. I would question how many fans would understand/accept the 'potential' as a reason to keep watching.
While normally I'd agree, SC2 fans in particular tend to see the game as a decent-to-good game with a lot of potential (see the common "two more expansions!" and "it's a new game" lines in flamewar threads), so they might be more patient than is normal.
This is very true (and evidenced by myself, as I'll be sticking with PL regardless at least for this season to see how it goes), but I thought the point of this whole thing from KeSPA's point of view was to convert the fans of BW over to SC2 for the coming seasons?
Sure some of the people who are already SC2 fans might stay, but won't this whole thing have been a failure if a significant number of the BW fans (or, those who watch the show on TV and thus generate ratings) just turn off because they judge SC2 or the level of competition to be inadequate?
That's what I fear...
Hell, even BW fans might turn off during BW given the fall in the quality of the games... I for one don't stay up till 3AM neither wake up 6AM to watch games live.
I find no motivation anymore to endure a fucked up sleeping schedule... all that is good is gone.
On May 21 2012 08:41 Miyoshino wrote: It wasn't an issue of SC2 being not popular because it wasn't released or barely released. Blizzard made very clear to the Koean scene 'no more rogue tournaments' and they gave Gom both a bag of money and exclusive rights to try to stop OGN and MBC.
SC2 is just not popular in Korea. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fans still want BW, and the only reason why they are switching now is because the sponsors have noticed the foreign SC2 scene, and wants to have a piece of the cake. The south korean ppl wants to stay with BW, but the sponsors wants SC2. Without the sponsors, it doesn't matter what the fans wants, so Kespa is forced to switch.
I thought one of the big reasons that sc2 was not popular was that it was not on tv. At least that was what this thread said at the time.
And blizzard made it impossible to get on tv by giving GOM exclusive rights. Was this thread completely mistaken about the reasons sc2 was not popular?
The reason why SC2 isn't popular in Korea is because over there most ppl actually knows about BW, so they're sticking to the more spectator-friendly game. Most foreign SC2 fans haven't even played BW, or won't give it a chance. That's why picking SC2 feels so obvious to them. I know BW is old. I know that the graphics aren't the best, but the age of a game is irrelevant, and the SC2 graphics are even worse since it makes it impossible to see what is going on in the game. We understand that the quality of games will eventually become better, but the low quality of play was only a part of the problem. When I saw the games, it just made it more obvious what a nightmare SC2 is by comparison. The graphics, the simplistic unit pathing, etc. I feel offended that they even named that game after Starcraft 1. I hope Kespa stops this farce and just goes on with the switch. The way they are milking the audience to try and turn them into SC2 fans is offending.
This, EXACTLY. The graphics in SC2 are a HUGE problem because they are too intricate. I played SC2 for six months before dumping it and going 100% BW again.
Kespa should dump BW, completely fail with SC2, and then bring BW back. Just goo 100% SC2 for a while to prove it's a total failure.
I don't understand how they're too 'intricate'. Blizzard graphics tend to be very simplistic and I dare-say cartoony. If anything it's an issue of the colours being too washed out.
Watching these games, half the time I don't know what's going on or who's winning a battle.
Is that really an issue of the game or an issue for yourself not willing to learn the game? I'm sure a lot of SC2 players watching Brood War would feel the same way.
I can attest to that. I find the action in SC2 much easier to follow. I'm sure this has to do with playing the game on 1v1 ladder for the last two years and watching every GSL + other tournies since then too. When I watch BW I really don't know how a battle will turn out because I'm not used to watching it.
I honestly think BW is more difficult to follow because in certain situations it's hard to tell what's happening. For example, I understand the awesomeness of BW muta micro, but as a spectator it really sucks not knowing how many mutas someone has. I just feel lost until the final battle and it's like "oh, I guess that guy had more mutas after all". Another example is Psi Storm is kind of awkward in it's animation and it's hard to get a feel for it's true AOE range. Another example is, as far as I can tell, observers can't select more than one unit at a time? Therefore the spectator can only see one unit's health bars at any time, which is a step backwards when you're used to seeing multiple units' health bars during an SC2 battle. Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think observers can see what's upgrading during the game which makes me feel really lost not knowing what's happening. Same thing for dropships - it doesn't seem you know what's inside unless you see it load or unload.
I'm sure long-time BW fans are really used to those things, but I don't understand how that should be easier for me as a new BW fan when compared to SC2?
See that's funny because I think the exact opposite. I find SC2 incredibly hard to view when they have all the healthbars on because that's all I can see. An entire screen of green/yellow/red lights. All the units get covered up and it's impossible to tell what's happening in the battle. Battle of the Healthbars is what I call it. I guess people like it because they keep demanding for healthbars on, but to me it's just like watching a screen of decreasing numbers which would be about as exciting. Except green lights are a little more flashy.
As for no unit tab. That's probably more a personal thing, but I love the story telling aspect this allows for the commentator. Too little information and you're in the dark- having unit supplies and resources is good. But noticing that the factory shop is spinning then lends itself to predictions whether it will be siege, fast fultures or mines.
There's also incredible tension built when you see the Templar Archive at work so your presume storm is on the way. You see the Protoss retreating, retreating, biding it's time. And you're asking when is storm coming? When's it coming? Is it coming? Then boom, the screen get's covered it in storms and it's super exciting. I guess I can see why people like the unit tab, but I prefer the middle ground of knowing a bit, but not too much.
The observer also needs to be much more active in story telling. Rather than the a little icon appearing telling you that an armoury is being built and that's all, the observer needs to go to the base to show you. So it forces a little more camera movement to tell the whole story. Same with unit production- to pop back and see zealots and high templar piling out of the gateways or masses of dragoons. Rather than a little icon switch, the observer will show you the huge zealot lines that are crossing the screen to reinforce.
One advantage of the Proleague is that OGN knows how to put on a show. If anyone can make an SC2 game exciting, they can.
The other thing about the Proleague I find intriguing is that KeSPA is requesting to have their own server for private practice, meaning that KeSPA (and perhaps only KeSPA) would be playing SC2 on a LAN. Tournament servers is something Blizz promised a long time back, and I'm really interested in seeing how that pans out. On things besides LAN, Blizz tends to concede to community pressure if it's hard enough (see: The ladder map pool), so if KeSPA gets Blizzard's ear, it could potentially have a big impact on how Legacy of the Void turns out.
That, I think, is the big potential silver lining in all this, that Blizzard increasingly has a bigger financial interest in keeping the pro scene happy than they doing in selling to casuals. Not that they'll take out automine or anything that extreme, but....we'll see how that goes. Maybe I'm being overly hopeful again, but it's interesting to hear that KeSPA is trying to get Blizzard to give the pro scene things.
I do agree that the OGN observers are really good at, as you say, putting on a show. But the quality and entertainment value of the games played were WORLDS away from the Code S Finals, and if people are judging Sc2 on these proleague games played, I can understand why you'd think its shit.
If i recall correctly, Hot_Bid expressed this in a better way during the livestream (cant remember if its in his blog/livereport)
Edit: This isnt Hot_Bids words, but a way to imagine what I mean is: imagine someone wanting to explain how awesome Proleague is to watch, and you get them to tune in to one random game, but instead of an epic proleague battle between Flash and Bisu they get to watch Perfectman in one of his really horrible games. They then decide that proleague is really shite without watching a single more round .
On May 23 2012 08:02 Catch]22 wrote: I do agree that the OGN observers are really good at, as you say, putting on a show. But the quality and entertainment value of the games played were WORLDS away from the Code S Finals, and if people are judging Sc2 on these proleague games played, I can understand why you'd think its shit.
If i recall correctly, Hot_Bid expressed this in a better way during the livestream (cant remember if its in his blog/livereport)
The quality of a random OSL match is WORLDS away from a Code "S" Final, if people are judging Sc2 on these games I can understand why you'd think its shit.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zPXBE.jpg)
. Will be fun watching proleague for 4 hours then goign to bed :D
, pure BW, the quality of games might be good since at least the builds are prepared and not being experimented.
stream, others are saying that if they give SC2 a chance, people will start liking it. That's on top of people saying: Those who cheered on today for SC2 only did so because of the teams/players. But stating this out of 8 comments (about) isn't saying much from fomos. I'll try to find more comments later.
