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On May 03 2012 07:49 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 07:40 cuppatea wrote:
In terms of the Western audience the real numbers are already in: SC2 is far more popular than BW ever was. On a site with hundreds of thousands of users you guys have only managed to get 414 people to admit that they will leave the community once KeSPA switches to SC2. I knew it was only a matter of time until one of "these types" entered the thread. This is about the number of fans/supporters/viewers the esport scene will lose because of the failure of sc2. So once again since its obvious you're a bit slow, this poll is inaccurate because of the presence of sc2 fanboys voting on a poll that is not intended for them. Nobody here is talking about sc2's viewers being higher than BW's, and we certainly aren't talking about how much greater you think sc2 is. Get off the high horse. There haven't been hundreds of thousands of BW players on this site in... Probably ever.
Really? Last time I checked, it was BW being cancelled....
I don't want to take sides, and I sympathise with the pain BW fans are feeling, but IMHO they seriously should keep it real with their hyperbole.
I'm singling your post out because I think it reflects well the current attitude of "your type" (since it seems people fall neatly into clear-cut categories now). It's ok to mourn, it's even fine to be in the defensive given the circumstances. But you guys are doing a disservice to the game and to the community by feeding the trolls, trying to shut out opposite POVs, and generally coming across like immature teenagers in your replies when so many of you have intelligent, well informed posts elsewhere in the site.
And a lot of people in this site, in general, don't seem to realise that Starcraft (either BW or SC2) =/= esports. Quite frankly Starcraft is just a blimp in the esports radar. SC could disappear tomorrow and the esports community will still thrive with CS, Quake, War3, AoE, DotA, LoL, and the many other games that have their own teams, sponsors and, sometimes, higher audiences. But I digress...
We all have a passion for something. We all like to share the things we love with other people and hope they like them too. But at the end of the day, it is all just a game. Keep it in perspective.
My 0.02.
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On May 03 2012 08:13 1Eris1 wrote:
Why the fuck are people who don't play/watch BW posting in this thread? Seriously, can you not read the title? Or the forum your in?
Can you say there is no bw players posting 'elephant in the room' threads in sc2 forum ?
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United States7639 Posts
On May 03 2012 07:29 UTL_Unlimited wrote:
In terms of the Korean audience, there's a big difference between the hardcore and the casual viewers. Many of the viewers are casual and watch the games because of the players such as Bisu, Flash, and the cuter and more popular ones like Firebathero, Leta, and Zero/Soulkey. So Korea as an audience won't lose much, especially if OGN does what the casters want to do, which is have the instructional shows again about SC2 to help the audience transition from BW to SC2. So the overall effect will be the same as that of the foreigner scene: where the hardcore BW fans will drop out while the more causal player followers will just continue to watch and support.
An example I'll use is the average qtpie you see on a stream. They don't know the games hardcore and have B- accounts. They are player followers and they will follow on with the switch and will probably like it initially with the new change in graphics. Of course afterwards is a bit of a different story as even the casual viewers might find the gameplay just too stale, but it will come down to a matter of taste by that point.
I don't know. From what we've seen, that isn't exactly the case. Boxer used to have the most insanely prolific and huge fanbase in the industry. His fancafe had over 600,000 members. Every time he played in proleague, at least 200 people would line up to watch him, even in that tiny ass studio MBC had at Co-ex. Now, look at his cafe. It still shows 400,000 members, but it's dead, barely updated. I've been to a couple of his GSL matches, and though he certainly still draws more fans to games than most players (around 40-50 instead of the usual like, 20), it's still a pittance compared to his glory days in BW. Same thing with Nada. If SC2 was going to become popular in Korea by drawing in the casual fans of players, it would have done so already, when the most popular players BW had ever seen switched over. But it didn't really happen.
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On May 03 2012 08:24 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 08:13 1Eris1 wrote:
Why the fuck are people who don't play/watch BW posting in this thread? Seriously, can you not read the title? Or the forum your in? This is just plain mean. We're all entitled to opinions if we're contributing to the discussion, and this is something that affects and matters to a lot of us, regardless of which side of the starcraft line we identify with. You can go find a mod and tell him or her to filter us out if you want.
Sorry. What exactly are your post BW plans again?...?
Oh that's right. You're just trying to pick arguements with people and derail the thread.
On May 03 2012 08:51 lolboi222 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 08:13 1Eris1 wrote:
Why the fuck are people who don't play/watch BW posting in this thread? Seriously, can you not read the title? Or the forum your in? Can you say there is no bw players posting 'elephant in the room' threads in sc2 forum ?
Well...
1. No one's really posted in that thread for months
2. It was about both BW and SC2
3. Just because some people are idiots doesn't mean you have to do the same as them
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I truly wonder what would happen if SC2 fails to work out in Korea, considering I absolutely hate the game and rate the game as possibly one of the worst buys I've ever made (absolutely disgusting SEA server which is practically dead right now), I would love to see that day come. I personally think most BW fans will either stick around or move on with other games like LoL and Dota 2, barely any would even switch to SC2 considering how most of us feel about the game.
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till now i still have not enjoyed playing sc2 yet. To me warcraft 3 is more exciting then starcraft 2 in obs or in gameplay. just because of money everybody switch. fucked up. SC2 wont fail in korea anytime soon with so much money pumped in o_O
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On May 03 2012 09:16 S2Glow wrote:
till now i still have not enjoyed playing sc2 yet. To me warcraft 3 is more exciting then starcraft 2 in obs or in gameplay. just because of money everybody switch. fucked up. SC2 wont fail in korea anytime soon with so much money pumped in o_O
+1. All the silly shadows, and 3D, and random shit like that makes it so hard for a BW/WC3 viewer/player to suddenly start watching it.
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Honestly SC2 fanboys should stop post shit on our threads, because im sick and tired of the same old song again and again. I dont want (and probably anybody else on bw forum) to make every thread bw vs sc2 battle.
Just understand one, we have lived the history of BW and if you arent, you can never understand what this game is for us! Maybe looks visually outdated, or unnecessary hard for you, but this not mean that sc2 is better or that you should constantly try to convince people who dont like sc2 and/or think that bw is greater in the opposite. One who can understand both games see that broodwar is deeper and more advanced in tactics, strategy and possibilities, so personally i found bw far more interesting because of that. If SC2 become interesting like bw or even more i will gladly approve it as a great successor and will enjoy it, until then il stick to bw.
Get it?
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On May 03 2012 08:53 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 07:29 UTL_Unlimited wrote:
In terms of the Korean audience, there's a big difference between the hardcore and the casual viewers. Many of the viewers are casual and watch the games because of the players such as Bisu, Flash, and the cuter and more popular ones like Firebathero, Leta, and Zero/Soulkey. So Korea as an audience won't lose much, especially if OGN does what the casters want to do, which is have the instructional shows again about SC2 to help the audience transition from BW to SC2. So the overall effect will be the same as that of the foreigner scene: where the hardcore BW fans will drop out while the more causal player followers will just continue to watch and support.
An example I'll use is the average qtpie you see on a stream. They don't know the games hardcore and have B- accounts. They are player followers and they will follow on with the switch and will probably like it initially with the new change in graphics. Of course afterwards is a bit of a different story as even the casual viewers might find the gameplay just too stale, but it will come down to a matter of taste by that point. I don't know. From what we've seen, that isn't exactly the case. Boxer used to have the most insanely prolific and huge fanbase in the industry. His fancafe had over 600,000 members. Every time he played in proleague, at least 200 people would line up to watch him, even in that tiny ass studio MBC had at Co-ex. Now, look at his cafe. It still shows 400,000 members, but it's dead, barely updated. I've been to a couple of his GSL matches, and though he certainly still draws more fans to games than most players (around 40-50 instead of the usual like, 20), it's still a pittance compared to his glory days in BW. Same thing with Nada. If SC2 was going to become popular in Korea by drawing in the casual fans of players, it would have done so already, when the most popular players BW had ever seen switched over. But it didn't really happen.
Boxer also use to be on top of the scene. People like winners and he really isn't one save for a brief time in SC2 nor was he when he switched from BW to SC2. I am not bashing Boxer, but your argument would really only apply if this was the early 2000s. To say that SC2 can't develop a similar following than that of BW (which mind you is an expansion that greatly improved upon the original SC) is pretty shortsighted. The topic is obviously more complicated than that but I don't really feel like putting out a long post about my thoughts on the matter.
This is coming from someone who watched/followed competitive Brood War from the late 90s to now being a casual viewer for SC2. I am sad that BW is pretty much gone at this point, but I also understand that what is replacing it isn't some terrible abomination.
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On May 03 2012 03:20 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for  Flash or  Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm actually baffled at how someone who seems to care about BW (organizing/sponsoring tournaments) could be so oblivious. BW didn't "fail" because fans didn't care about the players enough.
And I didn't say it did. I said BW fans won't follow Flash outside of BW because they don't care of Flash outside of BW.
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On May 03 2012 09:46 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:20 Djabanete wrote:On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for Flash or Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm actually baffled at how someone who seems to care about BW (organizing/sponsoring tournaments) could be so oblivious. BW didn't "fail" because fans didn't care about the players enough. And I didn't say it did. I said BW fans won't follow Flash outside of BW because they don't care of Flash outside of BW.
i must be a true fan because im more or less interested in how the progamers do in SC2.
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On May 03 2012 09:46 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:20 Djabanete wrote:On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for Flash or Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm actually baffled at how someone who seems to care about BW (organizing/sponsoring tournaments) could be so oblivious. BW didn't "fail" because fans didn't care about the players enough. And I didn't say it did. I said BW fans won't follow Flash outside of BW because they don't care of Flash outside of BW.
They will if he wins. Big "i told you so" incoming
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OK, got to stop lurking. SC2 people who came in here to tell us to try your game: Please do us all a favor and try BW first. I don't mean a few games, you need to try it for as long or longer than we tried SC2. (At least if it is really harder than SC2) Play few dozen or more games and watch a few pro matches, go and watch some Day9 daylies of BW. When I watched Day9 talk about SC2 (I was playing SC2) I was borred out of my mind. I go to his BW daylies and suddenly he is a genius.
For all of my fellow BW people, stay strong. In places like the USA this game has never really been popular, it is old graphics and it's really hard. We have been playing it for years, we can keep playing it. We don't need a pro scene to love a game, get on those ladders and make BW what it needs to be. Tell your friends, this is the only game of it's kind. Before SC2 we figured we would be stuck with BW forever because no comparable game would be made. After SC2 we know we will be stuck with it forever. No game comparable to BW will ever be made. BW fans go back to your first love and make the most of it, it's not dead yet!
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it will cost me another account
since manifesto banned me 2 years ago
and my older account 4 years ago
but i have to say, why are you all star2 supporters, posting in the BW section?
dont you have your section moderated by FrozenArbiter up there? a place where you can share your "vanguardist" minds, and your "carry on" feelings? move your asses up there, you are not welcome amongst people who dont care about you, no... let me put it in a better way, we would be rather better if your existence, and the existence of Star2 ended a few years ago!
make sure to "MULTIPLE USER SELECTION" your asses and Set the rally point of your posts to automine(post) right there, under the view of the good old chill mind guy "FrozenArbiter", so we dont like you, we are elitists, and we want to cry alone here, and there is nothing wrong with it!
After all, you have won right? pro bw is going to die, star2 is rising, wow nice hahaha, you got it, arent you happy? go play in battle net 2.0 , join a big OPEN CHAT IN BATTLE NET2.0 and start celebrating
we dont need you asking us to considerate star2, and we dont need any kind of wording or argument that your eyecandy-shiny-friendly-UI-brains can possibly create, in fact we do not need you at all for anything.
farewell
User was banned for this post.
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On May 03 2012 09:46 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:20 Djabanete wrote:On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for Flash or Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm actually baffled at how someone who seems to care about BW (organizing/sponsoring tournaments) could be so oblivious. BW didn't "fail" because fans didn't care about the players enough. And I didn't say it did. I said BW fans won't follow Flash outside of BW because they don't care of Flash outside of BW.
Uh, you don't speak for all fans. Sure some might feel that way, maybe even a majority, but that does not mean every fan will only follow Flash/Bisu/etc in BW.
And honestly, I could just as easily twist that to any sport...
Do you think Messi fans would follow him if he started playing baseball?
Do you think Kobe fans would follow him if he started golfing?
Do you think MKP fans would follow him if he started playing LoL?
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On May 03 2012 08:53 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 07:29 UTL_Unlimited wrote:
In terms of the Korean audience, there's a big difference between the hardcore and the casual viewers. Many of the viewers are casual and watch the games because of the players such as Bisu, Flash, and the cuter and more popular ones like Firebathero, Leta, and Zero/Soulkey. So Korea as an audience won't lose much, especially if OGN does what the casters want to do, which is have the instructional shows again about SC2 to help the audience transition from BW to SC2. So the overall effect will be the same as that of the foreigner scene: where the hardcore BW fans will drop out while the more causal player followers will just continue to watch and support.
An example I'll use is the average qtpie you see on a stream. They don't know the games hardcore and have B- accounts. They are player followers and they will follow on with the switch and will probably like it initially with the new change in graphics. Of course afterwards is a bit of a different story as even the casual viewers might find the gameplay just too stale, but it will come down to a matter of taste by that point. I don't know. From what we've seen, that isn't exactly the case. Boxer used to have the most insanely prolific and huge fanbase in the industry. His fancafe had over 600,000 members. Every time he played in proleague, at least 200 people would line up to watch him, even in that tiny ass studio MBC had at Co-ex. Now, look at his cafe. It still shows 400,000 members, but it's dead, barely updated. I've been to a couple of his GSL matches, and though he certainly still draws more fans to games than most players (around 40-50 instead of the usual like, 20), it's still a pittance compared to his glory days in BW. Same thing with Nada. If SC2 was going to become popular in Korea by drawing in the casual fans of players, it would have done so already, when the most popular players BW had ever seen switched over. But it didn't really happen.
I was part of Boxer's  But you know...
The point I just want to make is that GOM did a really bad job promoting Boxer in any way shape or form. Yeah a few of us knew that Boxer went to SC2 (obviously with his debut match), but the problem was that past that, the Korean audience never really received anything. The big difference between Boxer's past and current forms, in my opinion is that
1) He was a 2 time OSL WCG 2 time hottie who was good at the game with a good personality. This attracted numerous fans to him and he was seen as even a bigger legend with SKT and Ace. So with that, he garnered the popularity with the rise.
2) He was always broadcasted and used as a marketing tool for OGN and KeSPA. During this period, most people got to watch through TV and this led to his insane popularity rise. Why? Because casual watchers won't actively try to find these players. They will just say, "Hey I like him for x reason" and will watch whenever it's scheduled to be on. It's on the watcher's convenience. With GOM, they use GOM player (even though GOM does advertise with GOM player at the bottom), but when most Koreans watch TV for their entertainment, using the internet as a primary source of exposure means he will be less exposed.
3) A lot of people actually think he's straight up retired / is just a coach. It came with age and with Jessica being around. A lot of qtpie fans kinda stopped following him.
For the counterargument, I think that using the Boxer vs Yellow at Lotte World (was it Lotte world? I thought I saw the ice rink there) for that Yellow retire and then do a special match thing. It attracted people because
1) location (it's lotte world, everyone's there)
2) awesome venue (big TV? yes pl0x)
and 3) the players were there exposed for the casual viewers to just watch.
Another point to use would be Yellow's coach position in league of legends. He still gets shown on TV (right?) during Xenic Storm's plays and the commentators will always say, "Oh hey, it's YellOw". For the casual viewers, this is the exposure that they want to see for. Even League of Legends watchers know YellOw because these viewers are still, for the most part, had BW watching background. So with the way that Boxer and YellOw are being exposed, YellOw is probably more known by now. (I don't know how the hell I watch 'The Champions' so I am just saying my thoughts on this matter, so please take it with a grain of salt).
Of course, to your point, when Nal_Ra was shown during Proleague finals, there wasn't that much clamor between the Korean peoplezz so it IS possible that they do fall off after much months of just not being around, but I feel that when SC2 does come around in TV form for Proleague with the players, then the casual viewer will give it a chance and follow it before their own opinions really form. After all, TV is the main way for Koreans to get their daily exposure and when the casual viewer sees the players play, they'll check out what they exactly are playing before saying "no".
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On May 03 2012 09:54 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:46 Ribbon wrote:On May 03 2012 03:20 Djabanete wrote:On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for Flash or Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm actually baffled at how someone who seems to care about BW (organizing/sponsoring tournaments) could be so oblivious. BW didn't "fail" because fans didn't care about the players enough. And I didn't say it did. I said BW fans won't follow Flash outside of BW because they don't care of Flash outside of BW. They will if he wins. Big "i told you so" incoming
And if he loses, big "I told you so" incoming about SC2 being a no-skill game or whatever, which I think is the "I told you so" BW fans want to say more.
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Also, another point to note, how exactly do you guys discern SC2 people from BW people? I'm confused with the 'SC2 people get out' calls.
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On May 03 2012 10:13 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
it will cost me another account
since manifesto banned me 2 years ago
and my older account 4 years ago
but i have to say, why are you all star2 supporters, posting in the BW section?
dont you have your section moderated by FrozenArbiter up there? a place where you can share your "vanguardist" minds, and your "carry on" feelings? move your asses up there, you are not welcome amongst people who dont care about you, no... let me put it in a better way, we would be rather better if your existence, and the existence of Star2 ended a few years ago!
make sure to "MULTIPLE USER SELECTION" your asses and Set the rally point of your posts to automine(post) right there, under the view of the good old chill mind guy "FrozenArbiter", so we dont like you, we are elitists, and we want to cry alone here, and there is nothing wrong with it!
After all, you have won right? pro bw is going to die, star2 is rising, wow nice hahaha, you got it, arent you happy? go play in battle net 2.0 , join a big OPEN CHAT IN BATTLE NET2.0 and start celebrating
we dont need you asking us to considerate star2, and we dont need any kind of wording or argument that your eyecandy-shiny-friendly-UI-brains can possibly create, in fact we do not need you at all for anything.
farewell
People like you are the reason I'm more of an SC2 guy. The BW community just got so fucking awful after SC2 came out.
On May 03 2012 10:16 UTL_Unlimited wrote:
Also, another point to note, how exactly do you guys discern SC2 people from BW people? I'm confused with the 'SC2 people get out' calls.
They're referring more to the "LoL BW is shit game SC2 superior master race" trolls, moreso than people who like both games.
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EPT
