On May 02 2012 23:13 budar wrote:Reading this thread, I see a lot of people practically suicidal over BW "dying", but looking at their join date, it's so obvious they came here after SC2 came out. It's sad to see so many people being so fake.
Its posts like this that make us BW people cringe and question the intellectual level of the entire sc2 community. We don't even have to try, you guys do it to yourselves. The join date? Really? That's your ultimate scale for measuring how long we've been playing BW?
So my advice to you, if you're a BW fan, give it a chance... watch a big tournament or two. The gameplay we're seeing now is so much better than what you might have seen a year ago. Even though it's a lot easier on many levels than BW, it's also harder in other ways in the sense that you have to do things that are literally impossible to do in BW due to it's mechanics. The skill ceiling is still insanely high and we've been seeing more and more great games played. With the BW pros switching, this will probably be the single most competitive game in history, and the prospect of that seems very exciting.
Do you people think fans so hardcore we stick to a game for 14 years wouldn't have been JUMPING when sc2 first came out? I'm sure most of us have watched several tournaments, VODs, top players, etc. The fact is even after all that, we pretty unanimously think its shit. This is further backed up by the statements of countless progamers and coaches confirming our thoughts that sc2 is just plain easy and a sad excuse for a BW successor. How can sc2 fanboys not get this information with as much as we quote them all over the boards? A huge amount of progamers found out that they were just naturally high master to gm already. Flash freaking made it without even knowing the units. That in and of itself should send up all sorts of warning flags. Not to be "excited" or anything at sc2, but to be VERY concerned that the very core of the game is flawed to the point where a huge deal of skill is filtered out.
All the talk of BW changing vanilla SC is also a reason we question the "other" community. BW added a few units and changed a few existing ones. If anything, BW was akin to a simple version update is to sc2. When put in proper perspective like that, its easy to see where our concerns lie. If you counted every version update with all their unit changes and tech changes, you could argue that sc2 has required WAY more "expansions" to reach where it is now. As was stated before, BW didn't suddenly allow us to micro or anything, so stop trying to act like its a valid point to compare HOTS to BW. Your ver updates are a far better analogy.
Do you people think fans so hardcore we stick to a game for 14 years wouldn't have been JUMPING when sc2 first came out? I'm sure most of us have watched several tournaments, VODs, top players, etc. The fact is even after all that, we pretty unanimously think its shit. This is further backed up by the statements of countless progamers and coaches confirming our thoughts that sc2 is just plain easy and a sad excuse for a BW successor. How can sc2 fanboys not get this information with as much as we quote them all over the boards? A huge amount of progamers found out that they were just naturally high master to gm already. Flash freaking made it without even knowing the units. That in and of itself should send up all sorts of warning flags. Not to be "excited" or anything at sc2, but to be VERY concerned that the very core of the game is flawed to the point where a huge deal of skill is filtered out.
Of course you were jumping to see SC2 when it first came out. And the game was very very different then. I doubt many of you have given it a chance since the earliest days. And I think many of you have selective memories about what the earliest days of SC1 was like in it's first years. As big of a fan as many of you might be, it's also not likely that all of you were here when it started (I wasn't, obviously).
As for your comments about Flash and the BW progamers? That should be expected. These guys aren't just the best BW players, they are living in THE esports country, in the midst of the only real and established esports culture in world. They're playing BW, a game that has a long-time fanbase and more money then any one individual SC2 scene.
These people aren't only the best BW players, they are literally the best gamers in the world. I would be very disappointed and discouraged in RTS esports as a whole if those skills didn't transfer over well. Calling the game easy during the time period where you rise through the ranks of lesser players with normal jobs and lives is not a bad mark on SC2. And when have non pro's ever been anything but "easy" to a pro? I seem to remember comments from FBH saying how easy games were against high level amateurs, even when he let them scout his entire strategy.
I don't understand all the SC2 followers posting in this post-BW thread in the BW section, thinking that we'll take their opinion seriously especially if they are SC2-only followers. Anyways, I think in all honesty it's kinda pathetic how the SC2 scene is trying to latch onto the legacy of the BW scene and trying to hype it up. In other words sloppy seconds lololol. But really, what idiot came up with this whole transition plan and how the hell do they think they could do it without alienating all the fans? =_=
Oh well, in the end: All hail dota2! All hail valve!
On May 02 2012 23:13 budar wrote:Reading this thread, I see a lot of people practically suicidal over BW "dying", but looking at their join date, it's so obvious they came here after SC2 came out. It's sad to see so many people being so fake.
Its posts like this that make us BW people cringe and question the intellectual level of the entire sc2 community. We don't even have to try, you guys do it to yourselves. The join date? Really? That's your ultimate scale for measuring how long we've been playing BW?
Really? :D You guys keep using the word "intellectual level" all the time, is this some kind of fad here? If your "intellectual level" were half as high as you think it is, you'd realize that I was saying that there are a lot of these "die hard BW fans" that started watching Broodwar a year and a half ago but still talk down to everyone in the SC2 community as if they were the pillars of the universe in which we exist. I obviously didn't say that everyone who has a late join date is such a person. I myself only made an account about a year ago and was playing SC1 since the first day it came out, as I said. So, logic and reading comprehension are your friends.
Implying superiority to other people on the Web is the number one way of making yourself look like an annoying child.
On May 02 2012 23:13 budar wrote:Reading this thread, I see a lot of people practically suicidal over BW "dying", but looking at their join date, it's so obvious they came here after SC2 came out. It's sad to see so many people being so fake.
Its posts like this that make us BW people cringe and question the intellectual level of the entire sc2 community. We don't even have to try, you guys do it to yourselves. The join date? Really? That's your ultimate scale for measuring how long we've been playing BW?
Really? :D You guys keep using the word "intellectual level" all the time, is this some kind of fad here? If your "intellectual level" were half as high as you think it is, you'd realize that I was saying that there are a lot of these "die hard BW fans" that started watching Broodwar a year and a half ago but still talk down to everyone in the SC2 community as if they were the pillars of the universe in which we exist. I obviously didn't say that everyone who has a late join date is such a person. I myself only made an account about a year ago and was playing SC1 since the first day it came out, as I said. So, logic and reading comprehension are your friends.
Implying superiority to other people on the Web is the number one way of making yourself look like an annoying child.
[citation needed]
Please point out this mass majority of people in this thread with join dates a year and a half ago, that would be great.
On May 03 2012 03:48 Bijan wrote: Of course you were jumping to see SC2 when it first came out. And the game was very very different then. I doubt many of you have given it a chance since the earliest days. And I think many of you have selective memories about what the earliest days of SC1 was like in it's first years.
Ok once again since you didn't interpret my post correctly. We were jumping then, and a lot of us have been trying the whole"try-it-out" thing. Using RECENT experiences pulled from RECENT tournaments and RECENT top players, we still are pretty much unanimous in our concensus. Its not like we're pulling these opinions from sc2's beta era.
Also once again you try to compare early sc to early sc2. It is not comparable now and it never will be. Sc vanilla still had at its core, solid mechanics. Sc2 does not. Stop comparing apples to oranges, especially after so many people keep pointing out how poor of an analogy that is.
I was saying that there are a lot of these "die hard BW fans" that started watching Broodwar a year and a half ago but still talk down to everyone in the SC2 community as if they were the pillars of the universe in which we exist. I obviously didn't say that everyone who has a late join date is such a person.
And you can tell when people started being fans or spectators of BW...how? Your're still trying to use the joined TL date as a scale to judge people. So here's something that'll probably surprise someone like you. BW is so amazing, I'm confident you can make a pretty hardcore fan out of just 1 single viewing of the legendary BW moments. Sc2 fans will disagree. BW fans know I'm right. You don't have to have been a fan for years and years to know what's awesome and to want to defend it.
I'm going try to keep this short and sweet. I've been lurking TL for the better part of 4 years(yes I think vessels are imbalanced =P) and sadly the Brood War Overmind has ordered me to unburrow and move somewhere else. Before I say anything else I would like to thank the TL staff and everyone who has put their time and energy into this wonderful scene.
To my Brood War brethren: Sean Plott once said be proud of what you love. We love Brood War and if they call us elitist then so be it, I say we wear the name proudly! It is an end of an era for this generation but it is by no means the end of Brood War. It will live on in PC bangs, foreign tournemants, Iccup, Fish, Defiler.ru, lan parties, youtube vids, twitch.tv streams and anywhere else passion can be found! Brood War will go back full circle to its humble beginnings of 10 guys living in a flat eating ramen and practicing all day. Brood War has already done the impossible by ingraining itself into a nations culture and creating a multimillion dollar market. I am confident that if any game can make a resurgence it is our game. As long as there is one other guy on ANY server I guarantee you I will be there hosting my "1x1 FS-- D/D+ gogo" game, hopefully I will see most of you there. Brood War for life!!!!
To the Sc2 trolls: You are standing on the shoulders of a giant and it is a long way down. Do you think it is a coincidence that Blizzard have two preplanned "expansions" with two years in between releases? No it is obvious to anyone with a brain that your game would die out in a few years if all the expansions would be release together. It is nothing more than Blizzards way of giving false longevity to Browder's vision of Command and Conquer with a Starcraft sticker on the box. I thought the E in E-sports was supposed to stand for electronic but it actually stands for easy. I have tried to wrap my head around your scene and it just does not make sense. It is like you built a community around a community and completely forgot about the game that is supposed to be at the center. You are more invested in the pseudo-celebrity culture you have created than the actual game itself. The players know it, the community figures know it, but no one will come out and say it publicly because their livelihoods depend on it. The only Sc2 person I give credit to is Idra because he has actually come out and said the game is shit. So you can go ahead and stick Sc2/E-sports right back up your ass and that my low skilled RTS friends is worth the ban.
On May 03 2012 04:03 sCCrooked wrote: So here's something that'll probably surprise someone like you. BW is so amazing, I'm confident you can make a pretty hardcore fan out of just 1 single viewing of the legendary BW moments. Sc2 fans will disagree. BW fans know I'm right. You don't have to have been a fan for years and years to know what's awesome and to want to defend it.
This I will agree with. Watching just a few seminal matches of Boxer and Flash have made me follow the scene a bit. I'm still an SC2 fan but I understand the things that BW fans are missing from the new game. I think those things are coming, and having watched the game evolve as much as it has already and reading extensively about the history of BW has made me feel very hopeful for the future of SC2.
I know that some of you have been watching SC2 and keeping tabs on it's progress but I would not be surprised if a majority of players made their first judgement and stuck with it. SC2 is already insanely fun to watch for me and I only want to try and convince as many of you guys as I can to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Without you guys there wouldn't be an SC2 pro scene in the west and it would be a shame to lose such an important part of the community.
On May 03 2012 02:15 Sawamura wrote: Why wait for bw players to do all the job ? Can't sc2 bonjwas do something about the current state of the game right now and make it more interesting and revolutionized the game ?
We haven't been "waiting", persay, but I'm not sure how it can be argued that bringing years of BW experience, a generally accepted "harder game", that is quite very similar to SC2 in many ways, won't at least bring a new level to the game.
At the very least, having like 30 more MKP level players (or better) should force every other current SC2 player to get better at an accelerated rate, and thus the skill ceiling will be raised.
On May 03 2012 05:15 MicrowaveMess wrote: I'm going try to keep this short and sweet. I've been lurking TL for the better part of 4 years(yes I think vessels are imbalanced =P) and sadly the Brood War Overmind has ordered me to unburrow and move somewhere else. Before I say anything else I would like to thank the TL staff and everyone who has put their time and energy into this wonderful scene.
To my Brood War brethren: Sean Plott once said be proud of what you love. We love Brood War and if they call us elitist then so be it, I say we wear the name proudly! It is an end of an era for this generation but it is by no means the end of Brood War. It will live on in PC bangs, foreign tournemants, Iccup, Fish, Defiler.ru, lan parties, youtube vids, twitch.tv streams and anywhere else passion can be found! Brood War will go back full circle to its humble beginnings of 10 guys living in a flat eating ramen and practicing all day. Brood War has already done the impossible by ingraining itself into a nations culture and creating a multimillion dollar market. I am confident that if any game can make a resurgence it is our game. As long as there is one other guy on ANY server I guarantee you I will be there hosting my "1x1 FS-- D/D+ gogo" game, hopefully I will see most of you there. Brood War for life!!!!
To the Sc2 trolls: You are standing on the shoulders of a giant and it is a long way down. Do you think it is a coincidence that Blizzard have two preplanned "expansions" with two years in between releases? No it is obvious to anyone with a brain that your game would die out in a few years if all the expansions would be release together. It is nothing more than Blizzards way of giving false longevity to Browder's vision of Command and Conquer with a Starcraft sticker on the box. I thought the E in E-sports was supposed to stand for electronic but it actually stands for easy. I have tried to wrap my head around your scene and it just does not make sense. It is like you built a community around a community and completely forgot about the game that is supposed to be at the center. You are more invested in the pseudo-celebrity culture you have created than the actual game itself. The players know it, the community figures know it, but no one will come out and say it publicly because their livelihoods depend on it. The only Sc2 person I give credit to is Idra because he has actually come out and said the game is shit. So you can go ahead and stick Sc2/E-sports right back up your ass and that my low skilled RTS friends is worth the ban.
+1 to this. The part about SC2 being over once all the expansions come out is very true. Even now, it's 2/3 as popular as it was on release. The fact that Day9 and Husky have uploaded enourmous quantities of footage of games that are not SC2 in the last few months should tell you something. "Even" Psy gets more views on his Boshy videos than on his SC2 videos.
I'm not even worried about BW, I don't care if I never get to see another pro BW game in my life. I'm sad for the players. Whatever happens, this year will be hell for them. And many of them might quit e-sports completely if this shit happens.
I can admit I mainly started paying attention to the BW proscene when SC2 came out. BW is much more difficult than SC2 and has a much higher skill ceiling no intellegent person will argue otherwise. I understand why many people in this thread are unwilling to accept just switching to SC2 because they feel that their is nothing wrong with BW and in fact even a lot of things that are much better.
I hope you are all willing to wait and see what Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void bring to the table before leaving the progaming scene completely behind. It seems as though Blizzard is very aware of some of the things that BW fans dislike about SC2. They are working to relieve the 1A blob army battles that decide the game after just 1 collision in most cases. I'm not saying that it will make SC2 even come to the level of BW but hopefully with time they can bring many things that SC2 lacks in comparison to BW to a respectable level. Also I hope one day (since its possible) that we see capped size of control groups as an option to create a much more difficult game and skill ceiling for ONLY COMPETITIVE PLAY or those who wish to use that option.
As for the history of BW it can never be matched or replaced and that alone is a reason everyone shall miss BW. Without BW none of us would be at TL and e-sports would be nothing like it is today.
And I just want to add this. If the poll in this thread is accurate, they would be losing anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 of their audience and that's just judging by foreigner votes. They might lose 90% of the korean audience, Jesus Chirst.
To my Brood War brethren: Sean Plott once said be proud of what you love. We love Brood War and if they call us elitist then so be it, I say we wear the name proudly! It is an end of an era for this generation but it is by no means the end of Brood War. It will live on in PC bangs, foreign tournemants, Iccup, Fish, Defiler.ru, lan parties, youtube vids, twitch.tv streams and anywhere else passion can be found! Brood War will go back full circle to its humble beginnings of 10 guys living in a flat eating ramen and practicing all day. Brood War has already done the impossible by ingraining itself into a nations culture and creating a multimillion dollar market. I am confident that if any game can make a resurgence it is our game. As long as there is one other guy on ANY server I guarantee you I will be there hosting my "1x1 FS-- D/D+ gogo" game, hopefully I will see most of you there. Brood War for life!!!!
Excellent post. Good to see someone sum it up so nicely. Your sc2 statement was spot-on too.
This I will agree with. Watching just a few seminal matches of Boxer and Flash have made me follow the scene a bit. I'm still an SC2 fan but I understand the things that BW fans are missing from the new game. I think those things are coming, and having watched the game evolve as much as it has already and reading extensively about the history of BW has made me feel very hopeful for the future of SC2.
I hope more people like you realize the difference. Perhaps you can understand how after just about 2 years, our anticipation has worn out since we're still left wondering when such moments will happen in sc2 matches. I had originally hoped boxer could've done something legendary and memorable. Something along the lines of jangbi's legendary PvT storms in a key hard-fought match while fangirls screamed while literally crying with enthusiasm would quite literally be a light for us BW people that sc2 isn't so bad after all. However, we still wait.
On May 03 2012 03:12 Bijan wrote: I just want to say to all of you departing old-timers, I feel your pain and I hope you will reconsider becoming a part of the sc2 scene.
I imagine for most of you, you haven't given the game a chance in the while, so allow me to make a case for you:
The meta game has already changed so much, and while there are still some fundamental design problems, the game is already moving slowly away from the deathball, 1a gametypes and into more cerebral strategies with a focus towards macro.
I was GM last season, so I have definitely "given it a chance" (my mouse was broken at the start of this one so I didn't get GM this time) and no, SC2 isn't close to as good. I don't care that some of the problems and imbalances have been fixed, all the units are still boring and uninspired.
I'm sorry, but the difference between vanilla SC to BW is so huge that it isn't even funny. It isn't just "adding a couple of units" that's analogous to a simple update on SC2. Those couple of units changed everything. Trying to argue otherwise is extremely disingenuous.
On May 03 2012 05:15 MicrowaveMess wrote: I'm going try to keep this short and sweet. I've been lurking TL for the better part of 4 years(yes I think vessels are imbalanced =P) and sadly the Brood War Overmind has ordered me to unburrow and move somewhere else. Before I say anything else I would like to thank the TL staff and everyone who has put their time and energy into this wonderful scene.
To my Brood War brethren: Sean Plott once said be proud of what you love. We love Brood War and if they call us elitist then so be it, I say we wear the name proudly! It is an end of an era for this generation but it is by no means the end of Brood War. It will live on in PC bangs, foreign tournemants, Iccup, Fish, Defiler.ru, lan parties, youtube vids, twitch.tv streams and anywhere else passion can be found! Brood War will go back full circle to its humble beginnings of 10 guys living in a flat eating ramen and practicing all day. Brood War has already done the impossible by ingraining itself into a nations culture and creating a multimillion dollar market. I am confident that if any game can make a resurgence it is our game. As long as there is one other guy on ANY server I guarantee you I will be there hosting my "1x1 FS-- D/D+ gogo" game, hopefully I will see most of you there. Brood War for life!!!!
To the Sc2 trolls: You are standing on the shoulders of a giant and it is a long way down. Do you think it is a coincidence that Blizzard have two preplanned "expansions" with two years in between releases? No it is obvious to anyone with a brain that your game would die out in a few years if all the expansions would be release together. It is nothing more than Blizzards way of giving false longevity to Browder's vision of Command and Conquer with a Starcraft sticker on the box. I thought the E in E-sports was supposed to stand for electronic but it actually stands for easy. I have tried to wrap my head around your scene and it just does not make sense. It is like you built a community around a community and completely forgot about the game that is supposed to be at the center. You are more invested in the pseudo-celebrity culture you have created than the actual game itself. The players know it, the community figures know it, but no one will come out and say it publicly because their livelihoods depend on it. The only Sc2 person I give credit to is Idra because he has actually come out and said the game is shit. So you can go ahead and stick Sc2/E-sports right back up your ass and that my low skilled RTS friends is worth the ban.
People don't call BW fans elitist because they love BroodWar, but because they hate (for some rather stupid reasons) Starcraft 2. For example - you called a group of people "SC2 trolls" instead of just "trolls" and went on to explain why Starcraft 2 is actually a terrible terrible thing (I'm exaggerating) and people who follow it are in extension of that fact rather idiotic (I added the last part to illustrate where the elitist thing comes). There isn't a particularly good reason to group trolls by the game they play (trolls are trolls as far as I'm concerned) and most people who say they want Flash and other BroodWarians to switch over are usually just inconsiderate at first. It is ofcourse stupid thing to say in a BroodWar forum, but the intent is not hostile (I'm fairly certain there are very few people in the universe who want BroodWar to die specifically, the inconsiderate people usually just don't care what happens to it). You on the other hand, you would probably smile at least a bit, if Starcraft 2 community crashed and burned tommorrow. As there are a lot of people who have really found a considerable amount of enjoyment out of it and would be sad if that happened (who know nothing of you and your Broodwar) I find this to be petty and honestly rather pathetic.
A bit more on topic though, I think as far as there are enough people who like playing Broodwar there probably isn't a particularly good reason why it couldn't be played for a very long time still. You'll probably lose the glitz and glitter associated with OGN unfortunately, but as long as there are people playing there usually is some sort of community as well. And if it's as good as you say it is why wouldn't there be people playing it.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B0626.jpg)
