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Our options are threefold
1. Go into SC2, and fight to find ways to make it worthy of the name, either through 6m1hyg and the like, or by pressuring Blizzard directly, which has been meant by some results (they've admitted that the 1A blob syndrome is a major problem they're trying to fix in HotS, for instance, and took all the units TL hated out of the Beta). Try to make lemons out of the lemonade we're stuck with.
2. Go into foreign BW. Start chipping in to foreign tournaments, and trying to make a worthwhile scene. Get to know the names of top foreign players, and learn to accept that B+/A- Brood War is still some damn good BW. Start orginizing BW parties with your friends, and just be that guy with the weird hobby, and maybe get a few more friends involved. Try to grow the foreign scene into something worthwhile.
3. Take your ball and go home. For my occasional rants about "true" BW fans fleeing in its time of need, I really can't blame you. Hang out with Firefly fans and share in the love of a great thing that died before its time, but was a hell of a ride.
There is no good reason to go into LoL, it is everything BW fans hate about SC2, and you're only doing it out of spite, and that's no way to live your life.
I intend a mix of 1 and 2.
But before you do any of that, and before you even respond to this post, go outside, take in the splendor of the earth in which we live, and smile. Because you were there.
Smile because BW is ending during its golden age, and despite all the tragedy, it got to go out stronger than it had ever been, in terms of player skill.
Smile because you were there during the power outage game, and you were pissed off as all hell, but in the end it doesn't matter that Flash lost it because he stood victorious when the sun set.
Smile because Starcraft was the national sport of Korea, and that's incredible.
Smile because BW will go down in history as the start of everything. It will be remembered, and when we're all playing Counter-Strike 1.67 or League Defending the Ancients of Newerth or Starcraft 5: Revenge of the 12-unit control group, BW will have a place that SC2 and LoL and DOTA2 can never have.
Smile because you never have to worry about some idiots ruining the name of Brood War.
Smile because no one will remember Savior in ten years, but everyone will know Boxer and Yellow.
Smile because you saw the Legend of the Fall complete, live, in front of tens of thousands of fans in the Korean War Memorial.
Smile because Nada's sexy as fuck, in any endeavor, and will be for the rest of time.
Smile because Hyuk was a laughingstock, until he all-killed STX in their own tournament and made them look like chumps
You were there. No one else will ever know what you had. It's something to be treasured, and remembered.
And smile because you have those VODs saved up, and one day you'll be an old man going "In my day, we had to TELL our workers to mine!", and you'll whip out the VODs and your grandkids won't give a shit, but sooner or later...they'll be at that Hipster age, where they realize that something doesn't have to be new to be cool, and they'll watch those VODs again.
And the spirit of Brood War will live on.
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Reading some of these post makes me sad that I never got to experience the pro scene in brood war. I didnt even know about competitive gaming until starcraft 2 and it makes me sad because i loved the original starcraft. I see the love and devotion so many people have for BW and I must say I admire that. I hope when starcraft 2's time comes it will have affected me as much as BW has impacted all of you.
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I'll probably watch SC2 a little again just to see how the BW players do with the new game, and see if the game gets any more interesting with them in it. I tried watching SC2 but I got bored so fast and so hard. I think I played SC2 for maybe a total of 2 months or something and never touched it again. It just isn't the same, but I think I've been following these BW pros for so long that I just have to follow them just a little more after the end of BW.
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BW will always be close to my heart, but I'm excited to see what SC2 will turn into with the top BW pros playing it. I think the skill ceiling is probably higher than what many fans here seem to think, and the BW pros will show us!
You guys should mourn, for sure, but hopefully you can give SC2 a reasonable chance. =]
Edit: A reasonable chance with the BW pros changing the scene and giving feedback to Blizzard.
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I always hoped that SC2 would create its own mythos and history surrounding it, and when BW finally did die, it would die a timely death after living side-by-side with SC2 for several years. I've still got the buzz of "OMG Flash playing SC2" but I can't shake off the feeling that this is a giant leap of faith for the Koreans, and I can't help but feel disappointed because of the likelihood that we will have the same top BW players being the top SC2 players, rather than a new pantheon of Starcraft gods emerging.
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On May 03 2012 01:37 thragar wrote:
BW will always be close to my heart, but I'm excited to see what SC2 will turn into with the top BW pros playing it. I think the skill ceiling is probably higher than what many fans here seem to think, and the BW pros will show us!
You guys should mourn, for sure, but hopefully you can give SC2 a reasonable chance. =]
Edit: A reasonable chance with the BW pros changing the scene and giving feedback to Blizzard.
Well don't want to burst your bubble thragar but what if the bw professionals will not increase the skill ceiling than it is right now ? What if they are only able to play at the same level MvP,Polt,Nestea, are playing right now ?. You are asking too much from this brood war players to do for your game they are not game designers but are players they are only capable doing as much as you and me are able to do right now .
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Post BW? Didn't know such a thing existed.
But yeah, gonna play BW for as long as I bother playing games, never gonna touch SC2.
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On May 03 2012 01:50 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:37 thragar wrote:
BW will always be close to my heart, but I'm excited to see what SC2 will turn into with the top BW pros playing it. I think the skill ceiling is probably higher than what many fans here seem to think, and the BW pros will show us!
You guys should mourn, for sure, but hopefully you can give SC2 a reasonable chance. =]
Edit: A reasonable chance with the BW pros changing the scene and giving feedback to Blizzard. Well don't want to burst your bubble thragar but what if the bw professionals will not increase the skill ceiling than it is right now ? What if they are only able to play at the same level MvP,Polt,Nestea, are playing right now ?. You are asking too much from this brood war players to do for your game they are not game designers but are players they are only capable doing as much as you and me are able to do right now .
Sawamura has his finger on the pulse of the SC2 scene.
It depends on what your expectations are. Flash isn't going to turn SC2 into BW. Someone in BW (maybe not TLBS!) is probably going to revolutionize a few matchups, and probably discover that you could cut two stalkers out of such-and-such a build if you have really good control, and then you'll need better control to beat that build than you used to. Someone who was good in BW is going to wash out hilariously. Someone who was bad in BW is going to surprise. They'll probably make the game a little bit better, and evolving maps will probably make the game a little bit better, and Blizz's attempts to fix deathball syndrome and add more interesting units in HotS will probably make the game a little bit better, and maybe these little bits'll add up to a game that at least needs 180+ APM to play at a high level, which'd be nice.
Probably someone from BW will play at the level DRG, MarineKing or Parting play at their bests or a bit better, but do it a lot more consistently so we don't have the kind of streaks of "holy shit Genius next Zerg bonjwa" that we currently have in SC2.
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The title "bonjwa" should end with BW.
No one that plays SC2 really deserves that title. It'd be like saying "OMG Nestea so good. Bonjwa!" Come up with something new imo.
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Why wait for bw players to do all the job ? Can't sc2 bonjwas do something about the current state of the game right now and make it more interesting and revolutionized the game ?
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damn... i enjoy bw games a lot sucks that it has to end this way... too bad it didn't take off as well as it did in korea in the foreigner world
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I never really got into watching SC2. I got into playing it - I just found it more fun because BW is much harder mechanically, but for spectating nothing touched the excitement of BW. Maybe this will change once there's a stable team SC2 league? I dunno. The hybrid SC2/BW Proleague sounds really interesting to me and I really hope they continue on with it for more than just 1 season.
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On May 03 2012 02:15 Sawamura wrote:
Why wait for bw players to do all the job ? Can't sc2 bonjwas do something about the current state of the game right now and make it more interesting and revolutionized the game ?
Most SC2 players are and were hoping for this, however there are no SC2 bonjwas, be it for the recentness of the game or for its nature (Deathbal trololol)
I hope if the effort of the community and Blizzard to fix this problem will work out and we can get our Bonjwas!
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On May 03 2012 02:32 gCgCrypto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:15 Sawamura wrote:
Why wait for bw players to do all the job ? Can't sc2 bonjwas do something about the current state of the game right now and make it more interesting and revolutionized the game ? Most SC2 players are and were hoping for this, however there are no SC2 bonjwas, be it for the recentness of the game or for its nature (Deathbal trololol) I hope if the effort of the community and Blizzard to fix this problem will work out and we can get our Bonjwas!
Like I said, the term Bonjwas should never be applied to SC2. Make up another term because it be terrible to name an SC2 player a bonjwa on the level of Flash or Savior.
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As a lurker and new comer on TL for a year now, reading these post makes me really sad and have regret for not following the pro-scene for 10 years. I personally love Starcraft 2 and try so hard and ladder for hours to get better. But I will always have deep respect for BW and the followers who were so dedicated. If only there was a way two games can co-exist. FYI my first real computer game was BW when I was 13. Tho I never played on battlenet much remember the fun times I had playing the game.
Much love and respect for the game that started it all.
Love live Broodwar!
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I just want to say to all of you departing old-timers, I feel your pain and I hope you will reconsider becoming a part of the sc2 scene.
I imagine for most of you, you haven't given the game a chance in the while, so allow me to make a case for you:
The meta game has already changed so much, and while there are still some fundamental design problems, the game is already moving slowly away from the deathball, 1a gametypes and into more cerebral strategies with a focus towards macro.
Yes, BW had a certain type of magic that was inherent in the design. In many ways, SC2 discourages micro and relevant APM. But it only discourages it, it doesn't eliminate it. As the game has progressed we have seen some incredible displays of micro and multitasking as players have delved deeper into the depths of a game that is still extremely complicated.
And I'd like you to think back to some of the earliest days of vanilla sc1 and broodwar. Think of how much the game changed in that time, not only from the expansion and the very few patch updates, but simply in meta game. It didn't happen overnight, or even relatively quickly, but because you were a part of the scene and watching it unfold it felt completely different. It felt amazing, actually.
Now you have this game that has been perfected by time and enthusiasm and no matter how much progress SC2 makes, you will always have this other, experienced game to compare it to. You're shooting yourself in the foot and disallowing yourself to be a part of the amazing process of figuring out a new game. I don't find SC2 to be at the level of BW yet, but I am finding so much joy in watching players, mapmakers, and even Blizzard, slowly transform the game into something that can be just as good, yet unique in it's own right.
I submit to you that SC2 is already a much better game than it was a year ago. If you're looking for the exact elements of BW then you will always be disappointed, not just for SC2, but any esport that comes in the future. Check out the GSL, watch the new PL and OSL, give it one or two more chances before you give up on this community and the (sadly) inevitable successor to the greatest esport in existence.
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It's too early T_T. But i guess in the end, it's all about the money. Blizzard should have made a "enhanced" version of BW with just better graphics(but also the option to play with the old graphics) and a updated battlenet system(but not the crap that sc2 has)
That would obviously never happen and it would be very hard for Blizzard to change the graphics and still keep all the AI glitches and micro techniques etc.
In WoL, the BW players are not gonna do anything new, they will only have better macro and a few more builds will come. In HotS, the game should be harder micro wise but even with the new units the game is way too deathball focused and micro in battles will still be either 1a + a few spells. I hope Blizzard keeps on listening to the community.
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On May 03 2012 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:32 gCgCrypto wrote:On May 03 2012 02:15 Sawamura wrote:
Why wait for bw players to do all the job ? Can't sc2 bonjwas do something about the current state of the game right now and make it more interesting and revolutionized the game ? Most SC2 players are and were hoping for this, however there are no SC2 bonjwas, be it for the recentness of the game or for its nature (Deathbal trololol) I hope if the effort of the community and Blizzard to fix this problem will work out and we can get our Bonjwas! Like I said, the term Bonjwas should never be applied to SC2. Make up another term because it be terrible to name an SC2 player a bonjwa on the level of Flash or Savior.
Savior <3.
Now with Gretech/kespa getting in cahoots with Gom... now I doubt we can ever see Savior in SC2, at least the korean scene =/.
My still distant far off super dream = a foreign team recruits Savior to SC2 to counter the other bonjwas who will be making the transition.
Evil Genius Savior... just saying with the name and their payroll.. it could happen.
Anyways I have followd BW pro scene for a bit, tho not as long as most posters on this thread.
I have also followed SC2 pro scene since its release... but my only problem is nothing in SC2 feels nearly as powerful or impressive as it was in BW.
In BW it was 300 apm or death.
In Sc2 there are top level players who play around 100-150... but honestly there is just that much less to do in SC2... so i hope to see some micro miracles coming from the BW pro's. who are going to have an extra 100 apm lieing around maybe they will be able to focus their dt's, control their banshees/hellions... and maybe... o wait zerg doesnt have harass units except for mutas...
But anyways the level of control and strategy and play in BW games was just soooo HUGELY impressive and has never even been close to being mirrored in SC2 yet, so I am doubtful that SC2 will ever become as strategically deep as BW, which is saddening. But i hope to see the BW pro's elevate the required level of play in SC2 to compete, because there are sooooo many players who are called "professional" who make u cringe everytime u watch their games currently in SC2.
Honestly my biggest hope is that HotS completely revamps the game because sc2 atm is soooo stale and boring and doesnt even come close to mirroring the complexities of BW.
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On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for  Flash or  Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop.
You couldn't be more wrong.
I'm actually baffled at how someone who seems to care about BW (organizing/sponsoring tournaments) could be so oblivious. BW didn't "fail" because fans didn't care about the players enough.
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On May 02 2012 23:54 Savant wrote:
I've had my stint in SC2 and I can't see myself going back. It was fun for me up to diamond level, but beyond that everyone can pick a build and execute it fairly well, and due to the lack of effective force multipliers in the game if you lose one battle generally you lose the game. The game boiled down to surviving your opponent's build order first and foremost, and if one player gets away with some deception they have a huge advantage. If I wanted to play a strategy game I'd play chess, and if I wanted to play a game of chance I'd play poker. They made the game so easy and forgiving mechanically they diluted what made SC special: comparing how well you can manage your mental resources against your opponent's in real time.
When BW was huge you could do the same thing as well. Pick a build, rise all the way to the top with it. It's no different in SC2, there is just a much larger player at the moment then the player pool of BW at the moment. People that still play broodwar are typically the cream of the crop experts at the game. Of course you can't run a single build against them and win all the time.
If you watch pro SC2 players it's the same way. No one can win consistently (anymore) with just a single strategy executed over and over again.
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EPT
