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On March 24 2012 06:42 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 fabiano wrote:On March 24 2012 06:08 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 24 2012 05:55 blade55555 wrote:On March 24 2012 05:51 Bebop07 wrote:
Been a fan and watched pro bw since about 2005 or so and I think it's a cool idea. I guess it's a possibility the level of play might drop in bw but..I'm not gonna lie even if they're not great it'd be awesome/hilarious to see flash/bisu/jaedong playing sc2 matches. That'd be entertaining as hell. I have a feeling that if this happens it will be mainly B teamers or something who play sc2 matches. I just don't see jaedong/bisu/flash or any of the top top tier bw players playing sc2 just yet. I don't think this is as bad as a lot of people in this thread suggests but I am not to surprised at the negative reaction, I am just glad they aren't removing bw or anything and am kind of excited for this  I could see mainly B-teamers and maybe a few low-level A-teamers with perhaps the occasional decent A-teamer playing SC2. Oh, and there might be some SC2 players pilfered from the B-teams of existing SC2 teams, if what Nestea is correct in what he said in an interview several months ago. The fanboy in me believes that Flash can probably dominate in SC2 or BW Zerg or BW Protoss if he felt like it since he is God, but even Gods have their limits (or do they????). SC2 will limit God's potential, he will become just another common high skilled pro. so true. sc2 is nowhere near the high skill level of bw, the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players (dont mention ladder, ladder is a whole different story in BOTH sc2 and bw). this is why sc2 needs to really wake up and turn around the gameplay with HotS and Void. Otherwise people cannot take the game seriously when it is too "easy". i assure you that if hots and void do not deliver some groundbreaking units or mechanics that increase the skill ceiling dramatically, sc2 will not even appeal to the Bw pros. There's really no truth to that at all. Firstly, the skill ceiling is impossibly high in both games and will never be reached (or even neared) by any human being. Secondly, the win rates between the top players in BW and SC2 are more or less the same. MVP, prior to succumbing to his wrist injuries, was enjoying Flash-level dominance and DRG has been winning more consistently in recent months than any BW Zerg. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that results are any more random in SC2 than BW.
It's so unmaintainable though.
DRG is the best now. 2 months ago it was MMA. Three months before that it was MVP. Three months before that it was Nestea. Two months before that it was MC, etc etc.
It's one thing to dominate a couple of tournaments, it's another to maintain that domination for a longer period.
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On March 24 2012 06:47 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:43 StarStruck wrote:
Shit, I'm not going to look for that girl's blog on her trying to get into BW or to explain the phenomena, but many of my rebuttals can be found there. That blog is probably 3-4 months old now. Are you referring to the (not) magical blog?
You sir are quite good.
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On March 24 2012 06:42 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 fabiano wrote:On March 24 2012 06:08 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 24 2012 05:55 blade55555 wrote:On March 24 2012 05:51 Bebop07 wrote:
Been a fan and watched pro bw since about 2005 or so and I think it's a cool idea. I guess it's a possibility the level of play might drop in bw but..I'm not gonna lie even if they're not great it'd be awesome/hilarious to see flash/bisu/jaedong playing sc2 matches. That'd be entertaining as hell. I have a feeling that if this happens it will be mainly B teamers or something who play sc2 matches. I just don't see jaedong/bisu/flash or any of the top top tier bw players playing sc2 just yet. I don't think this is as bad as a lot of people in this thread suggests but I am not to surprised at the negative reaction, I am just glad they aren't removing bw or anything and am kind of excited for this I could see mainly B-teamers and maybe a few low-level A-teamers with perhaps the occasional decent A-teamer playing SC2. Oh, and there might be some SC2 players pilfered from the B-teams of existing SC2 teams, if what Nestea is correct in what he said in an interview several months ago. The fanboy in me believes that Flash can probably dominate in SC2 or BW Zerg or BW Protoss if he felt like it since he is God, but even Gods have their limits (or do they????). SC2 will limit God's potential, he will become just another common high skilled pro. so true. sc2 is nowhere near the high skill level of bw, the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players (dont mention ladder, ladder is a whole different story in BOTH sc2 and bw). this is why sc2 needs to really wake up and turn around the gameplay with HotS and Void. Otherwise people cannot take the game seriously when it is too "easy". i assure you that if hots and void do not deliver some groundbreaking units or mechanics that increase the skill ceiling dramatically, sc2 will not even appeal to the Bw pros. There's really no truth to that at all. Firstly, the skill ceiling is impossibly high in both games and will never be reached (or even neared) by any human being. Secondly, the win rates between the top players in BW and SC2 are more or less the same. MVP, prior to succumbing to his wrist injuries, was enjoying Flash-level dominance and DRG has been winning more consistently in recent months than any BW Zerg. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that results are any more random in SC2 than BW.
Regarding dominance.
Those guys you mentioned (MVP, DRG) play foreigners in random foreign tournaments every other week. Of course they have good win-rate.
If Flash plays foreigners that much, his win-rate will be well into the 90s. Heck, until recently he was on a 14-0 streak, and that's having only A-teamers (aka people who stomp foreigners with 1 finger blind-folded) as his opponent.
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*looks at forum posts
What the hell happened between page 5 to 15.
Lemme just sum up some points so no one has to repeat them:
1. Mixing multiple games in a gaming league is not the problem, just as having multiple sports in the Olympics is not a bad idea. The problem is the same players / teams / resources being expected to play multiple games / overextend itself, or the results of a solely game A series being determined by a game B ACE match. There is already cross fire in the current SK planet proleague, but the results of BW don't coincide or matter with the results of that, if this is the implementation then I don't see any problems with OGN doing a BW / SC2 proleague, if it's the former implementation then it's a terrible idea.
2. Balance discussion and game design discussion are independent from your personal preference. Your personal preference of the games are also independent of the quality of your post. If you post something ill informed and designed to offend people, it doesn't matter who you are or what group you associate yourself with, your post is still terrible.
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The talk of volatility won't die down anytime soon for several reasons.
Cannot wait to see how HotS and LotV change things. I really want to see only one circuit. I wish the organizers would really get on this and construct one tour, but the possibility of that happening is meh. -_-
They all want the market share when they could actually be taking turns throwing the events and there would hardly be any down time ever.
You want legitimacy? Bring in the legitimacy.
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For the love of both games, don't do this. It doesn't make sense
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Wow, that is fucking stupid.
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if this truely happen and I feel bad for the SC2 pro. Now they will be facing Flash, Jaedong...etc
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On March 24 2012 06:52 Caihead wrote:
*looks at forum posts
What the hell happened between page 5 to 15.
Lemme just sum up some points so no one has to repeat them:
1. Mixing multiple games in a gaming league is not the problem, just as having multiple sports in the Olympics is not a bad idea. The problem is the same players / teams / resources being expected to play multiple games / overextend itself, or the results of a solely game A series being determined by a game B ACE match. There is already cross fire in the current SK planet proleague, but the results of BW don't coincide or matter with the results of that, if this is the implementation then I don't see any problems with OGN doing a BW / SC2 proleague, if it's the former implementation then it's a terrible idea.
2. Balance discussion and game design discussion are independent from your personal preference. Your personal preference of the games are also independent of the quality of your post. If you post something ill informed and designed to offend people, it doesn't matter who you are or what group you associate yourself with, your post is still terrible.
What the fuck are you talkng about?
Those medals that the athletes are working towards are based on individual performance. Sure you have some team sports in there, but that's incredibly different. There is no extra medal for being on top of the medal standings. It's just to boast. The speed skaters aren't working with or for the downhill skiers. Sure, they're from the same country but their result has no ramification on the other one's result at all. That's a ridiculous comparison.
You want to compare the Olympics to something? How about WCG? Yet the results have no barring on where the other guy finishes as a result.
Are we on the same page?
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Its really not that bad, its just going to show how much better BW is in comparison.
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On March 24 2012 06:37 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:22 duncan.mc wrote:
I like the idea but not the implementation. I love BW but I really wish SC2 would get good enough to overtake BW in entertainment. We have to step forward some time and SC2 has the potential, especially with 2 expansions yet to come.
Imagine if the BW pros and the Korean fanbase started getting a little interested in SC2. What if we had them helping to drive the development of SC2? I would think that would be the fastest, most efficient way to create a difficult-to-master yet widely entertaining SC2 end product. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about constructive feedback. They had tons of it ever since playable alpha. Did they ever listen? They only talk and then just do their thing, usually ruining SC2 even further... What they're best at is telling people what they supposedly want. The whole bnet "2.0" fiasco is the best example. "Do you really want chat channels?" Now they should ask "do you really want a better game?" ... I lost all my hope when they removed Voidray fazing and added Phoenix "moving shot"... This just shows their mentality and cluelessness. HotS won't make SC2 even scratch the depth and entertainment level of BW because their lead designer is clueless. He doesn't even know what micro is. He keeps defending utterly boring and microless units like Marauders, Colossi and so on. He's too proud to admit that many of his ideas are garbage. Take SC2's idiotic pathing for example... I can't find a single unit-replacement that's more fun to both watch and play with. Mothership? Hellions? Vikings? Marauders? Colossi? Roaches? They completely ignored everything that made BW great. They shat on the whole BW scene by trying to forcibly replace it with SC2.
Not to mention the visual department. What made BW truly a great spectating friendly game is the crispiness of the designs. When armies clashing into each other, you can clearly tell what the individuals units are doing to maximize the damage output. Whereas in SC2, every single battle is one single blob of one color vs another color and really hard to tell apart the units.
SC2 just gives off a total different auras in comparison to BW. Yes, fundamentally speaking, they can be related as the same franchise with similar mechanics and contain analogous elements such as micro, macro, army positioning, timing and etc. But if we to delve deeper, BW's atmospheric feel differs so much from the so-called sequel. You could actually make connection to the dark, gritty environment to strive for survival as a Terran, the bloodthirsty nastiness of the insectoid Zerg, and the ancient heroic Protoss pride. The science fiction experience remain the most unique that a game can offer with the gun bursting, blood gushing sound. Coupled with the incredible musical score, the players suddenly find themselves travelling into outer space with endless of possibilities.
Instead the newborn child bears no resemblance to its older brothers. The graphics are unnecessarily shiny that offer no sense of exotica of a spacial universe. Every thing is toned up in the color spectrum to attract a younger audience with buildings that consists of playdoh appearance. The loud, crisp sound was replace to by a sub par counterpart.
While I must tip my hat to Blizzard for the creation of a brilliant product, I must also wonder if they have ever learned valuable lessons from previous merchandise.
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On March 24 2012 06:59 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:52 Caihead wrote:
*looks at forum posts
What the hell happened between page 5 to 15.
Lemme just sum up some points so no one has to repeat them:
1. Mixing multiple games in a gaming league is not the problem, just as having multiple sports in the Olympics is not a bad idea. The problem is the same players / teams / resources being expected to play multiple games / overextend itself, or the results of a solely game A series being determined by a game B ACE match. There is already cross fire in the current SK planet proleague, but the results of BW don't coincide or matter with the results of that, if this is the implementation then I don't see any problems with OGN doing a BW / SC2 proleague, if it's the former implementation then it's a terrible idea.
2. Balance discussion and game design discussion are independent from your personal preference. Your personal preference of the games are also independent of the quality of your post. If you post something ill informed and designed to offend people, it doesn't matter who you are or what group you associate yourself with, your post is still terrible. What the fuck are you talkng about? Those medals that the athletes are working towards are based on individual performance. Sure you have some team sports in there, but that's incredibly different. There is no extra medal for being on top of the medal standings. It's just to boast. The speed skaters aren't working with or for the downhill skiers. Sure, they're from the same country but their result has no ramification on the other one's result at all. That's a ridiculous comparison. You want to compare the Olympics to something? How about WCG? Yet the results have no barring on where the other guy finishes as a result. Are we on the same page?
Didn't I just write
"The problem is the same players / teams / resources being expected to play multiple games / overextend itself, or the results of a solely game A series being determined by a game B ACE match. There is already cross fire in the current SK planet proleague, but the results of BW don't coincide or matter with the results of that, if this is the implementation then I don't see any problems with OGN doing a BW / SC2 proleague, if it's the former implementation then it's a terrible idea. "
Did you read past the first sentence?
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Well... 15-30 minute commercial breaks as opposed to 4-5. I'll definitely be tuning out of every other set then.
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Why the hell would you try to compare it to the Olympics in the first place was my main point.
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On March 24 2012 02:27 Bjoernzor wrote:
As a huge Sc2 supporter this actually makes no sense and probably won't be good for either game.
On March 24 2012 04:50 heyoka wrote:
I'd probably watch it but it really seems like it would hurt the game quality for both BW and SC2, leaving no one happy with how it plays out.
I agree. If players practice both games, it would be detrimental to their skill levels for both games.
If not, each BW/SC2 player would still have less chances to play and their level of play would still suffer.
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On March 24 2012 07:03 StarStruck wrote:
Why the hell would you try to compare it to the Olympics in the first place was my main point.
Because it's a event / league where multiple sports that are may be completely unrelated are played in conjunction where the results / resources of one sport aren't related to each other? And in fact national (in this case corporate sponsorship) representation of teams which share the same investment funds is actually beneficial to have a larger pool of resources to draw from? If that's how this is implemented then there are zero problems.
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On March 24 2012 06:51 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:42 cuppatea wrote:On March 24 2012 06:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 fabiano wrote:On March 24 2012 06:08 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 24 2012 05:55 blade55555 wrote:On March 24 2012 05:51 Bebop07 wrote:
Been a fan and watched pro bw since about 2005 or so and I think it's a cool idea. I guess it's a possibility the level of play might drop in bw but..I'm not gonna lie even if they're not great it'd be awesome/hilarious to see flash/bisu/jaedong playing sc2 matches. That'd be entertaining as hell. I have a feeling that if this happens it will be mainly B teamers or something who play sc2 matches. I just don't see jaedong/bisu/flash or any of the top top tier bw players playing sc2 just yet. I don't think this is as bad as a lot of people in this thread suggests but I am not to surprised at the negative reaction, I am just glad they aren't removing bw or anything and am kind of excited for this I could see mainly B-teamers and maybe a few low-level A-teamers with perhaps the occasional decent A-teamer playing SC2. Oh, and there might be some SC2 players pilfered from the B-teams of existing SC2 teams, if what Nestea is correct in what he said in an interview several months ago. The fanboy in me believes that Flash can probably dominate in SC2 or BW Zerg or BW Protoss if he felt like it since he is God, but even Gods have their limits (or do they????). SC2 will limit God's potential, he will become just another common high skilled pro. so true. sc2 is nowhere near the high skill level of bw, the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players (dont mention ladder, ladder is a whole different story in BOTH sc2 and bw). this is why sc2 needs to really wake up and turn around the gameplay with HotS and Void. Otherwise people cannot take the game seriously when it is too "easy". i assure you that if hots and void do not deliver some groundbreaking units or mechanics that increase the skill ceiling dramatically, sc2 will not even appeal to the Bw pros. There's really no truth to that at all. Firstly, the skill ceiling is impossibly high in both games and will never be reached (or even neared) by any human being. Secondly, the win rates between the top players in BW and SC2 are more or less the same. MVP, prior to succumbing to his wrist injuries, was enjoying Flash-level dominance and DRG has been winning more consistently in recent months than any BW Zerg. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that results are any more random in SC2 than BW. Regarding dominance. Those guys you mentioned (MVP, DRG) play foreigners in random foreign tournaments every other week. Of course they have good win-rate. If Flash plays foreigners that much, his win-rate will be well into the 90s. Heck, until recently he was on a 14-0 streak, and that's having only A-teamers (aka people who stomp foreigners with 1 finger blind-folded) as his opponent.
I wasn't even taking their foreign win rates into account. DRG has a higher win rate in Korea, against Koreans, than any current BW pro besides Flash. The same was true of MVP until his recent dip in form and considering their skill difference in BW, who's to say Flash couldn't enjoy an even higher win rate in SC2?
The frequently made claim on this board that the SC2 is too easy or too random to distinguish good players has no merit.
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On March 24 2012 07:07 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:03 StarStruck wrote:
Why the hell would you try to compare it to the Olympics in the first place was my main point. Because it's a event / league where multiple sports that are may be completely unrelated are played in conjunction where the results / resources of one sport aren't related to each other? And in fact national (in this case corporate sponsorship) representation of teams which share the same investment funds is actually beneficial to have a larger pool of resources to draw from? If that's how this is implemented then there are zero problems.
The rumor is they will coincide so the results will in affect each other. That's the rub. We've seen this once before and it was BAD.
This is why you see the outrage at the mere thought.
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i dont mind if sc2 have their own SPL/OSL/Whatever because i wouldnt watch it anyway, but this? u gotta be kidding
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Noobville17921 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:07 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:51 ffreakk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 cuppatea wrote:On March 24 2012 06:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 24 2012 06:11 fabiano wrote:On March 24 2012 06:08 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 24 2012 05:55 blade55555 wrote:On March 24 2012 05:51 Bebop07 wrote:
Been a fan and watched pro bw since about 2005 or so and I think it's a cool idea. I guess it's a possibility the level of play might drop in bw but..I'm not gonna lie even if they're not great it'd be awesome/hilarious to see flash/bisu/jaedong playing sc2 matches. That'd be entertaining as hell. I have a feeling that if this happens it will be mainly B teamers or something who play sc2 matches. I just don't see jaedong/bisu/flash or any of the top top tier bw players playing sc2 just yet. I don't think this is as bad as a lot of people in this thread suggests but I am not to surprised at the negative reaction, I am just glad they aren't removing bw or anything and am kind of excited for this I could see mainly B-teamers and maybe a few low-level A-teamers with perhaps the occasional decent A-teamer playing SC2. Oh, and there might be some SC2 players pilfered from the B-teams of existing SC2 teams, if what Nestea is correct in what he said in an interview several months ago. The fanboy in me believes that Flash can probably dominate in SC2 or BW Zerg or BW Protoss if he felt like it since he is God, but even Gods have their limits (or do they????). SC2 will limit God's potential, he will become just another common high skilled pro. so true. sc2 is nowhere near the high skill level of bw, the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players (dont mention ladder, ladder is a whole different story in BOTH sc2 and bw). this is why sc2 needs to really wake up and turn around the gameplay with HotS and Void. Otherwise people cannot take the game seriously when it is too "easy". i assure you that if hots and void do not deliver some groundbreaking units or mechanics that increase the skill ceiling dramatically, sc2 will not even appeal to the Bw pros. There's really no truth to that at all. Firstly, the skill ceiling is impossibly high in both games and will never be reached (or even neared) by any human being. Secondly, the win rates between the top players in BW and SC2 are more or less the same. MVP, prior to succumbing to his wrist injuries, was enjoying Flash-level dominance and DRG has been winning more consistently in recent months than any BW Zerg. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that results are any more random in SC2 than BW. Regarding dominance. Those guys you mentioned (MVP, DRG) play foreigners in random foreign tournaments every other week. Of course they have good win-rate. If Flash plays foreigners that much, his win-rate will be well into the 90s. Heck, until recently he was on a 14-0 streak, and that's having only A-teamers (aka people who stomp foreigners with 1 finger blind-folded) as his opponent. I wasn't even taking their foreign win rates into account. DRG has a higher win rate in Korea, against Koreans, than any current BW pro besides Flash. The same was true of MVP until his recent dip in form and considering their skill difference in BW, who's to say Flash couldn't enjoy an even higher win rate in SC2? The frequently made claim on this board that the SC2 is too easy or too random to distinguish good players has no merit.
Are you trying to compare SC2 winrates to BW winrates or am i confused here?
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