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On March 24 2012 07:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:22 Gosi wrote:On March 24 2012 06:37 maybenexttime wrote:On March 24 2012 06:22 duncan.mc wrote:
I like the idea but not the implementation. I love BW but I really wish SC2 would get good enough to overtake BW in entertainment. We have to step forward some time and SC2 has the potential, especially with 2 expansions yet to come.
Imagine if the BW pros and the Korean fanbase started getting a little interested in SC2. What if we had them helping to drive the development of SC2? I would think that would be the fastest, most efficient way to create a difficult-to-master yet widely entertaining SC2 end product. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about constructive feedback. They had tons of it ever since playable alpha. Did they ever listen? They only talk and then just do their thing, usually ruining SC2 even further... What they're best at is telling people what they supposedly want. The whole bnet "2.0" fiasco is the best example. "Do you really want chat channels?" Now they should ask "do you really want a better game?" ... I lost all my hope when they removed Voidray fazing and added Phoenix "moving shot"... This just shows their mentality and cluelessness. HotS won't make SC2 even scratch the depth and entertainment level of BW because their lead designer is clueless. He doesn't even know what micro is. He keeps defending utterly boring and microless units like Marauders, Colossi and so on. He's too proud to admit that many of his ideas are garbage. Take SC2's idiotic pathing for example... I can't find a single unit-replacement that's more fun to both watch and play with. Mothership? Hellions? Vikings? Marauders? Colossi? Roaches? They completely ignored everything that made BW great. They shat on the whole BW scene by trying to forcibly replace it with SC2. They did everything wrong. What they should have done with SC2 is what Valve and IceFrog did with dota 2, pretty much a direct port of gameplay with improved graphics, UI, options, community stuff ingame and alot of new fun stuff. Instead we got Dustin Browder and a whole new game and bnet 0.2. Starcraft: Red Alert 2 is what I like to call it. You can really tell that he is the lead designer of both games -_- I wouldn't mind a new game if they actually bothered to analyze what made BW so great. Instead of starting nearly from BW level of gameplay, they seem to have completely ignored BW, trying to come up with everything from the beginning. They have pretty much botched every aspect of the game compared to BW - unit design, micro, macro, maps, bnet, tournaments, pathing, map mechanics (high ground), spells, and so on. I'm not even going to bother discussing the artistic side of the game... Somehow some random developers from Hungary managed to capture the spirit of BW way better than Blizzard (talking about Armies of Exigo). It almost looks as if Blizzard actually analyzed BW indepth, and then decided to screw everything up on purpose.
Thats what they did. JB himself talked about this in some interview last year about how they wanted to create a new game and how they think it should be played and to make it more casual friendly and easier for noobs to play (thats what he said) and leave BW because if you want BW you can still play BW.
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On March 24 2012 00:52 GTR wrote:
i'd rather see one game rather than the mix of games, what the fuck.
this is like mixing special force + counter strike sets in one match.
QFT 
User was warned for this post
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On March 24 2012 07:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:31 cuppatea wrote:On March 24 2012 07:23 Wohmfg wrote:On March 24 2012 07:16 cuppatea wrote:
I'm trying to point out that the top players in SC2 are no less dominant than those in BW (Flash excluded) and thus the frequent "SC2 is too easy/too random for players to win consistently" claims on here have no merit. The SC2 sample sizes are smaller. Come back and make that argument when the sample sizes are similar. All I did was refute the following claim, which I frequently see passed off as fact on these boards: "the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players" If we look at the win rates of top players in both games then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. If, instead, we say that the sample size is too small to be used as evidence... then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. STOP TALKING ABOUT WINRATES! DAMN IT! Shine had a long winstreak Bisu had a long winstreak Flash had a long winstreak But that doesn't mean they have the same level of skill. Looking at winrates is just stupid of your scene has random 'pros' popping out of nowhere. What I am meaning to say here is that basing your players for their wins is a fucking bullshit idea. BW had been played for a whole decade and the level of play has just been increasing into a point where some people just dominate the rest of the flock (TBLS). Someone who has followed BW since 2007 or before 2007 will know what I mean. Your game is not easy but the competition is. Random schmucks popping everywhere thinking that if when they reached a certain level in 'Masters or GM or whatever bullshit' league, they can go pro. LADDER DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:29 dsousa wrote:
Like it or not the graphics are extremely dated and that alone is enough to put off most SC2 fans. I don't see this bringing many new fans to BW at all. The point is.... its 2012 man.... why settle for less? We have the technology... enjoy it 
The random players getting good and disappearing thing happened in BW too. We had by.hero, type-b, Shine, and Pure get to OSL semifinals, what happened to them afterwards? BW skill cap is obviously higher but that only matters for bonjwas and players of Stork/Bisu/Jaedong quality.
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I like both Starcraft games very much, but it definitely seems a bit off to run them at the same time. Not really against it, but it would definitely depend on their presentation. It looks like they're in need of a solid and unified Starcraft scene. And a unified Starcraft Proleague is miles better than no Proleague at all imo.
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On March 24 2012 07:50 Cassel_Castle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On March 24 2012 07:31 cuppatea wrote:On March 24 2012 07:23 Wohmfg wrote:On March 24 2012 07:16 cuppatea wrote:
I'm trying to point out that the top players in SC2 are no less dominant than those in BW (Flash excluded) and thus the frequent "SC2 is too easy/too random for players to win consistently" claims on here have no merit. The SC2 sample sizes are smaller. Come back and make that argument when the sample sizes are similar. All I did was refute the following claim, which I frequently see passed off as fact on these boards: "the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players" If we look at the win rates of top players in both games then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. If, instead, we say that the sample size is too small to be used as evidence... then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. STOP TALKING ABOUT WINRATES! DAMN IT! Shine had a long winstreak Bisu had a long winstreak Flash had a long winstreak But that doesn't mean they have the same level of skill. Looking at winrates is just stupid of your scene has random 'pros' popping out of nowhere. What I am meaning to say here is that basing your players for their wins is a fucking bullshit idea. BW had been played for a whole decade and the level of play has just been increasing into a point where some people just dominate the rest of the flock (TBLS). Someone who has followed BW since 2007 or before 2007 will know what I mean. Your game is not easy but the competition is. Random schmucks popping everywhere thinking that if when they reached a certain level in 'Masters or GM or whatever bullshit' league, they can go pro. LADDER DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. On March 24 2012 05:29 dsousa wrote:
Like it or not the graphics are extremely dated and that alone is enough to put off most SC2 fans. I don't see this bringing many new fans to BW at all. The point is.... its 2012 man.... why settle for less? We have the technology... enjoy it The random players getting good and disappearing thing happened in BW too. We had by.hero, type-b, Shine, and Pure get to OSL semifinals, what happened to them afterwards? BW skill cap is obviously higher but that only matters for bonjwas and players of Stork/Bisu/Jaedong quality.
The former players you mentioned can rape anyone in the ladder with ease. No, it's not skill cap but the level of play in general. The level of play is still evolving along with the maps and the league in general. Skill cap is like talking about A.I. controlling every single unit and using it efficiently. There is no such think as skill cap, only level of play.
Why? Let's look at bisu for a moment. If you've followed his level of play from 2008 or 2009 then compare it to 2010 and 2011. His level of play has been going up and down yet he is still considered the best protoss among the flock of P's. And yet there will be a time that he will be replaced by another much more stronger Protoss.
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10387 Posts
I'm sorry for the unproductive comment, but I would like to say that this is sincerely the most retarded thing I've ever heard of.
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What I want to know is does this mean that we are going to have English BW commentary? And if we do is it going to come from someone who knows how to play BW, and not some D- sc2 caster attempting to understand BW, or is it going to be Artosis/Day 9/ Tasteless?
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On March 24 2012 08:01 puppykiller wrote:
What I want to know is does this mean that we are going to have English BW commentary? And if we do is it going to come from someone who knows how to play BW, and not some D- sc2 caster attempting to understand BW, or is it going to be Artosis/Day 9/ Tasteless?
Hopefully that doesn't happen. I might even cast the full sets if not that many people cast BW (restream that is, unless we have official English casters)
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On March 24 2012 07:31 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:23 Wohmfg wrote:On March 24 2012 07:16 cuppatea wrote:
I'm trying to point out that the top players in SC2 are no less dominant than those in BW (Flash excluded) and thus the frequent "SC2 is too easy/too random for players to win consistently" claims on here have no merit. The SC2 sample sizes are smaller. Come back and make that argument when the sample sizes are similar. All I did was refute the following claim, which I frequently see passed off as fact on these boards: "the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players" If we look at the win rates of top players in both games then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. If, instead, we say that the sample size is too small to be used as evidence... then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim.
So giving win rates based on a tiny sample size of games vs hundreds of Bw games "refutes" the claim?
lol no.
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Terrible. Flash better win this PL finals, 3 OSL, 3 MSL, 3 PL Finals would be a good way to go out.
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On March 24 2012 08:02 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:31 cuppatea wrote:On March 24 2012 07:23 Wohmfg wrote:On March 24 2012 07:16 cuppatea wrote:
I'm trying to point out that the top players in SC2 are no less dominant than those in BW (Flash excluded) and thus the frequent "SC2 is too easy/too random for players to win consistently" claims on here have no merit. The SC2 sample sizes are smaller. Come back and make that argument when the sample sizes are similar. All I did was refute the following claim, which I frequently see passed off as fact on these boards: "the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players" If we look at the win rates of top players in both games then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. If, instead, we say that the sample size is too small to be used as evidence... then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. So giving win rates based on a tiny sample size of games vs hundreds of Bw games "refutes" the claim? lol no.
When the claim is "top players cannot show consistent results" then of course pointing out the consistent results of top players refutes it, surely even a guy with "SC2 is bad" in his sig can accept that? It's hardly controversial.
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On March 24 2012 08:02 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:01 puppykiller wrote:
What I want to know is does this mean that we are going to have English BW commentary? And if we do is it going to come from someone who knows how to play BW, and not some D- sc2 caster attempting to understand BW, or is it going to be Artosis/Day 9/ Tasteless? Hopefully that doesn't happen. I might even cast the full sets if not that many people cast BW (restream that is, unless we have official English casters)
Well Moletrap is casting LoL for OGN, he used to cast BW.
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I wonder if players will play both games. If yes it will be ackward as fuck.
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On March 24 2012 08:14 huehuehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:02 supernovamaniac wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 puppykiller wrote:
What I want to know is does this mean that we are going to have English BW commentary? And if we do is it going to come from someone who knows how to play BW, and not some D- sc2 caster attempting to understand BW, or is it going to be Artosis/Day 9/ Tasteless? Hopefully that doesn't happen. I might even cast the full sets if not that many people cast BW (restream that is, unless we have official English casters) Well Moletrap is casting LoL for OGN, he used to cast BW.
Woah. FOREAL?
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On March 24 2012 08:02 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:31 cuppatea wrote:On March 24 2012 07:23 Wohmfg wrote:On March 24 2012 07:16 cuppatea wrote:
I'm trying to point out that the top players in SC2 are no less dominant than those in BW (Flash excluded) and thus the frequent "SC2 is too easy/too random for players to win consistently" claims on here have no merit. The SC2 sample sizes are smaller. Come back and make that argument when the sample sizes are similar. All I did was refute the following claim, which I frequently see passed off as fact on these boards: "the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players" If we look at the win rates of top players in both games then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. If, instead, we say that the sample size is too small to be used as evidence... then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. So giving win rates based on a tiny sample size of games vs hundreds of Bw games "refutes" the claim? lol no.
It indicates that there is no evidence for the initial claim. It doesn't prove that WoL is as stable as BW, but it seems to indicate that they are probably comparable. Sure, we won't know for sure until half a decade from now, but from the stats we have now it still seems like nobody has come close to WoL's skill ceiling yet and that good players can still differentiate themselves on a comparable (I said comparable) level as BW pros.
Point is, there is no proof that WoL is as stable as BW over the long term, but there is no proof of the contrary.
As for this specific idea... I don't like it. I like the idea of OGN getting involved in SCII, but a mixed BW and WoL tournament just seems weird. I mean, I'll probably watch, but its still weird... reminds me of that stupid Skeleton/Bobsleigh team event they tried to get into the Olympics a while ago (or of that team Figure Skating event that /did/ make it into the Olympics). I'm sure its good TV, but it just seems all too random and out of place.
Edit: slightly off topic, but I wish Blizzard (or anyone, really) would put out a patch to increase BW's resolution. I think the graphics themselves are fine - I quite like the style, even - but couldn't we just get the game to go to a resolution that isn't stuck in the 90s? Being able to watch BW in HD would honestly make me tune in more often. Its not a "hur hur, BW has ugly graphics" thing, its a "I can't stand to watch anything (WoL included) at a low resolution" thing.
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Ha ha! Make it all kill format switching the game every time.
Jokes aside: NO.
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On March 24 2012 08:25 catplanetcatplanet wrote:
Ha ha! Make it all kill format switching the game every time.
Jokes aside: NO.
Well, that would be hilarious. Terrible, but hilarious anyway.
I think a part of me would prefer that, tbh xD
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Why have both games . . . at least let BW die with dignity
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i dont understand why you couldn't just have two leagues just like any other competition? this is ridiculous.
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Wait so they are going to have one team playing both bw and sc2??? NO NO NO
I would like to have either one game or the other, not this mix of things.. : (
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EPT
