EPT[Winners Interview] KT Rolster vs Woongjin Stars - Page 2
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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Nukid
United States240 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On February 27 2012 10:48 baubo wrote: Seriously. Any player on a team that plays Action 8 times should not be complaining about lack of Bo7. If Barracks were good enough, they'd at least give a couple of Action's appearances to the guy. Assuming that all the maps were equally favourable for Z and T, yes. I'm not sending out my 2nd/3rd best T when one of my Zs can take out the opponent on a better map. Just pointing out that there's more to it than skill sometimes. KT's probably a bad example since Flash is pretty intense at every matchup and every map, but other more rounded teams like CJ or Woongjin might have to choose between certain other players (Woongjin, do I send out ZerO or LighT for this map in this matchup, etc). | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On February 27 2012 11:13 IntoTheheart wrote: Assuming that all the maps were equally favourable for Z and T, yes. I'm not sending out my 2nd/3rd best T when one of my Zs can take out the opponent on a better map. Just pointing out that there's more to it than skill sometimes. Other than Outlier once, Action has been sent out on maps that are decent/good for terrans. So map is not a factor. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On February 27 2012 11:24 baubo wrote: Other than Outlier once, Action has been sent out on maps that are decent/good for terrans. So map is not a factor. Ah, if that's the case, I wouldn't know. I mean, KT's only got two players they will always send out compared to SKT which will most likely field FBB. Same with CJ and Woongjin. I mean IMO, Woongjin's got one of the best teams right now but somehow they're not winning gold. | ||
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
On February 27 2012 10:48 baubo wrote: Seriously. Any player on a team that plays Action 8 times should not be complaining about lack of Bo7. If Barracks were good enough, they'd at least give a couple of Action's appearances to the guy. You cant think of it that simply though. KT has 2 Terrans ahead of barracks and no, youre not getting ahead of flash in the lineups. While they have 3 zergs who basically are relatively equal in skill (before CH's emergence anyway). See before CH became decent, action was their best bet. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On February 27 2012 11:33 iLoveKT wrote: You cant think of it that simply though. KT has 2 Terrans ahead of barracks and no, youre not getting ahead of flash in the lineups. While they have 3 zergs who basically are relatively equal in skill (before CH's emergence anyway). See before CH became decent, action was their best bet. Actions winning percentage has been crap for a long time now. And Mind hasn't exactly been lighting things up either. Not to mention teams like Samsung and SKT1 routinely send out 3 protosses, so it's not like you're screwed when teams know which race you're likely to play. If Barracks was good enough, there are easily enough spots among Jade, Sniper Ridge, and Ground Zero for him to play. He obviously still isn't all that good a player in the minds of KT coaches. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
Silly me. | ||
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Zamkis
Canada114 Posts
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10346 Posts
And then that the format favors different top players?... It favors the best players because no one is preparing for two games anymore. That's why fantasy, Flash, and Soulkey (more distantly) are at the top right now... because they're the best players right now! What does it mean to be "solid"... to be favored against most players but not win as often because he doesn't "prepare" enough? Stork is doing fine this season. This is more of that apologetic illogic that ran rampant in the '10 Bacchus OSL finals thread, people making up ridiculous reasons why Stork, the alleged "better player," got creamed by fantasy. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On February 27 2012 15:44 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork wins by "solidness" of his play while fantasy wins by preparation? What kind of bullshit sports-speak is this? ALL progamers prepare extensively, hours upon hours, Stork doesn't just want into a booth and rely on "solidness," a word that has no meaningful definition in this context, while implying that fantasy is somehow, not solid. And then that the format favors different top players?... It favors the best players because no one is preparing for two games anymore. That's why fantasy, Flash, and Soulkey (more distantly) are at the top right now... because they're the best players right now! What does it mean to be "solid"... to be favored against most players but not win as often because he doesn't "prepare" enough? Stork is doing fine this season. This is more of that apologetic illogic that ran rampant in the '10 Bacchus OSL finals thread, people making up ridiculous reasons why Stork, the alleged "better player," got creamed by fantasy. I think you're confusing quality of preparation with quantity of preparation when it comes to Stork-Fanta. Fanta's preparation in the Bacchus OSL finals was inarguably much better. | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
He also took a game of Jangbi in an OSL, but proceeded to get knocked out. So glad he's still in the scene and slowly improving! | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2446 Posts
On February 27 2012 15:44 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork wins by "solidness" of his play while fantasy wins by preparation? What kind of bullshit sports-speak is this? ALL progamers prepare extensively, hours upon hours, Stork doesn't just want into a booth and rely on "solidness," a word that has no meaningful definition in this context, while implying that fantasy is somehow, not solid. Umm, there are interviews specifically mentioning Fantasy taking builds from oov. And interviews specifically mentioning Stork wasting his time playing cellphone games or Wow instead of practising. Fantasy has had his greatest success with unique builds. Stork shows fantastic play even when playing at a severe disadvantage. It's rare we can say that Stork "falls apart", but Fantasy has been accused of it countless times. This is not for no reason! I think Fantasy's TvT is truly solid, though, and funnily enough that's the matchup he has shown the most comebacks in. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19381 Posts
On February 27 2012 20:49 Turbovolver wrote: Umm, there are interviews specifically mentioning Fantasy taking builds from oov. And interviews specifically mentioning Stork wasting his time playing cellphone games or Wow instead of practising. Fantasy has had his greatest success with unique builds. Stork shows fantastic play even when playing at a severe disadvantage. It's rare we can say that Stork "falls apart", but Fantasy has been accused of it countless times. This is not for no reason! I think Fantasy's TvT is truly solid, though, and funnily enough that's the matchup he has shown the most comebacks in. Your information is old, stale, and repeated to death. Stork is NOT wasting his time playing phone games or wow. It has been quite some time since either of those have been mentioned. Do you honestly think that Stork isn't practicing right now and is distracted when PL this year means more to the BW world then it ever has? Fantasy is NOT taking builds from Oov as Oov went into service. Read the last interview with Fantasy saying that he is better season because he can finally play his own style. "Even when ooV coach was here, in the end he gave me the green light to play the way I wanted to play. I think that’s why I adjusted so fast. " "It's rare we can say that Stork "falls apart", but Fantasy has been accused of it countless times. This is not for no reason!" Who is saying this? People make fun of Fantasy for his GG timing but are you honestly saying Fantasy (the most successful playoff player of all time) is known for falling apart? On February 26 2012 01:01 Emperor_Earth wrote: Re: Sea The problem for this season is the sparseness in games. Players like Sea/Stork historically relied on the solidness of their play whereas players like FantaSy rely on preparation. When both sides are only preparing for one game, build orders and specifically wonky timings are much easier to produce as a per game basis so FantaSy is disproportionally stronger this season than before. Leta/Bisu are also more the Sea/Stork brand but they win more with the uniqueness of their play. It's very hard to replicate their style in practice. But again, with fewer matches to prepare for, it's easier on a per game basis to slightly adjust your style/expectations. And then there's God. It's not the sparseness in games that is the issue here, it's the fact that the OSL isn't running simultaneously. That is why Fantasy had not been as successful in PL. But to even say he hasn't been successful is such a stretch. Baring a slump during last season he has been a pillar in the success of SKT's PL season's for years ."FantaSy is disproportionally stronger this season than before" What's disproportionate about his record this year compared to his previous years. Hasn't he been the number two terran for a while. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2446 Posts
On February 27 2012 22:15 BisuDagger wrote:Fantasy is NOT taking builds from Oov as Oov went into service. Read the last interview with Fantasy saying that he is better season because he can finally play his own style. "Even when ooV coach was here, in the end he gave me the green light to play the way I wanted to play. I think that’s why I adjusted so fast. " What? He can finally play his own style, but oov let him play his own style anyway and that's why he adjusted fast? This is pure contradiction! Whether it's oov giving him the builds or not is not the important point, anyway. It's that when he shows up with a nice build that he's prepared and practised the shit out of, he really cleans up shop. His first games with valkyries, the revolution of vulture drop TvZ that happened for a while there, his dismantling of Stork in the last game of their more recent OSL showdown. (Incidentally, I'd say that is one example of Stork falling apart!) On February 27 2012 22:15 BisuDagger wrote: People make fun of Fantasy for his GG timing but are you honestly saying Fantasy (the most successful playoff player of all time) is known for falling apart? Not much, recently. Much as I hate to admit it, he's improved a lot actually, I don't think I would have a problem calling him a "solid" player now. You're kidding yourself if you think he didn't used to have a reputation for random failure and random brilliance, though. "Fantasy vs Calm" is a thing. His awful bio micro WAS a thing, but yeah, he's improved a lot. The only thing Stork is famous for in the failure stakes is running into a million mines. Oh and I guess being cheesed by zergs. MountainDewJunkie was suggesting that the two players probably practised equally and this would carry over into equal skillsets, to suggest anything else was apologetic rhetoric for Stork losing to Fantasy. Which is the part I think is bullshit. You can say that Stork is more "solid" without calling him a better player than Fantasy. Some players are better at responding to situations off the top of their head, this is a simple fact! I'd still argue that Stork is better at this than Fantasy. That doesn't mean that Fantasy isn't better in other aspects, though. Just look at his recent results, they've been beast. It seems pretty easy to argue that Fantasy benefits more from preparation than Stork. Stork's results haven't changed much despite a lower workload (no OSL/MSL), Fantasy's have improved a lot. But, it would be disingeneous to suggest that's all it is, because Fantasy has definitely grown as a player too. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11482 Posts
On February 26 2012 01:01 Emperor_Earth wrote: Re: Sea The problem for this season is the sparseness in games. Players like Sea/Stork historically relied on the solidness of their play whereas players like FantaSy rely on preparation. When both sides are only preparing for one game, build orders and specifically wonky timings are much easier to produce as a per game basis so FantaSy is disproportionally stronger this season than before. Leta/Bisu are also more the Sea/Stork brand but they win more with the uniqueness of their play. It's very hard to replicate their style in practice. But again, with fewer matches to prepare for, it's easier on a per game basis to slightly adjust your style/expectations. And then there's God. Well Flash also relies a lot on preparation but unlike Fantasy, he focuses a lot more on how to certain situations in-game instead of creating expansive strategies. Yeah, I really agree with Barracks, the Bo7 format gave players with limited televised matches to show their play. A lot of rookies actually rose with this format (Sun, Grape, Dear, Shy, Reality etc.), as well as players like Hoejja and Jaehoon. | ||
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