I had these files uploaded to Rapidshare, but since I do not have a Pro account, Rapidshare is bugging me about deleting them after a limited period of time. So if you want to get these maps but can't use these download links, PM me about giving you a working link.
Hey all,
So over the summer I got bored and tried my hand at BW mapping, specifically trying to convert some popular SC2 maps into BW. I kinda let the hobby fall by the wayside for several months since then, but I recently finished up Tal'Darim and am comfortable sharing these maps with you all.
Now, I have VERY limited mapping experience, so there are a TON of positional imbalances and amateurish mistakes in these maps. Basically, these are pretty bad, low-quality maps. Hell, I don't even know how exactly to do double cliffs, which shows on the Shakuras. Also, there is a bug that causes BW to crash if one or both of the map dimensions are not in the standard BW size (64, 96 128, 192, 256), so I had to resize some of the maps to make them not crash, which is why some of the maps have weird artifacts and spaces.
Also, they're not really a good way to practice SC2 in BW, though I guess they might be fun for the entire novelty of it.
Anyways, I hope you guys have fun messing around on them, or perhaps even fixing them up to be a bit more balanced
And ramps are a bitch to make haha, so I just copied and pasted off of ramp template maps, one of which was made by none other than MorroW himself, or so it seems.
On January 22 2012 13:49 TehTemplar wrote: I wish I still had brood war editor =[ GW, I wouldn't mind seeing newer sc2 maps like antiga here.
Actually, I used Scmdraft2 since it's MUCH more flexible than the vanilla BW editor. The vanilla BW editor only has a limited set of ramps that only face southeast and southwest.
Also, Antiga has double cliffs, which I haven't figured out how to make yet. I guess I might try making newer maps eventually.
Nice work meta looks likes like Road Runner or New Tornado tbh and Sc already got lots of Lost Temple versions that was more balanced then yours just honesty here but overall nice work hoping you can inprove on your map making skills
On January 22 2012 14:10 GhandiEAGLE wrote: It is funny how lame these maps look when compared to actual, good BroodWar maps... XD
Maybe one day Sc2 will catch on, I'm hoping they do!
oh cmon, it's not fair to compare to the polished pro BW maps. Let someone experienced pretty up these maps, and they'll look just as good except for incredibly obvious imbalances lol
On January 22 2012 14:49 Risen wrote: They're so... small. Or am I just looking at it weird. I swear the current BW maps are way larger.
Maybe it's just the layout. The current BW maps are mostly 128x128. The maps I made are at least 128 in both dimensions, with some maps having at least one dimension being more than 128.
I'd be open to remaking some of these. Setting aside your mapping skill, most of the maps are pretty imbalanced in BW though, especially the open natural ones. I guess the only viable ones in your pack would be Tal'Darim and Shakuras, though Shakuras has a host of other problems.
Multiple height levels would take a ton of tile-editting to do properly so I probably won't be doing that. Though if I had time, it's definitely possible.
By the way, I don't think you should actually put more minerals in the high-yield expansion places. SC2 balances the high-yield expansions by the fact that they typically only have 6 patches, so the saturated income is the same (just requires less workers to saturate). I think it would be better if you just treated them as normal expos.
Also, having all those xel'naga temples everywhere is really hilarious.
Nice. I was looking forward to these ever since I first joined TL. I started with SC2 but switched to BW pretty soon and got quite discouraged by not knowing any of the maps. Now finally I can put them into use. Thanks for the hard work!
XNC and meta look the coolest. XNC because I haven't seen a BW map with that layout and meta cuz of the terrain. Also Tal Darim for the center... Holyyy fuck that looks cool.
Only Tal Darim looks like an "acceptable" BW map at first sight, most of the others look like Python/LT clones or some of those obscure maps from early 2000s.
It would be interesting to see some of the newer maps like Cloud Kingdom.
They look very weird. If would never play these in BW cuz they look very imba and will not just work. I hope you put some more effor like decorating the map and don't just rush to finish, it really looks like you made these maps in 10 minutes. These maps are just too tight to play in BW and ofcourse there is some positional imbalances.
On January 22 2012 14:10 GhandiEAGLE wrote: It is funny how lame these maps look when compared to actual, good BroodWar maps... XD
Maybe one day Sc2 will catch on, I'm hoping they do!
lLOL yea.. they look like maps from the beginnings of BW. or worse.
You have to give it to the editor too... ofc. the maps look bad without doodads and detailed mapping.
Edit: I am a really good mapmaker but I don't see why converting SC2 maps into BW is a good idea unless they start producing some interesting maps for SC2(in comparison to BW mapping.)
On January 22 2012 20:56 sheaRZerg wrote: lol...SC2 maps have such tiny bases, it would suck playing bw terran on almost all of these.
Also....isnt remaking lost temple a little redundant ;P
You'd have to fix a lot of tiny things to make it work, but that doesn't have to change the maps structure. But there are no interesting SC2 mapping concepts as of yet... I mean compare it to the BW mapping scene, there is no reason to start converting maps at all.
When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
On January 22 2012 19:39 SiaBBo wrote: They look very weird. If would never play these in BW cuz they look very imba and will not just work. I hope you put some more effor like decorating the map and don't just rush to finish, it really looks like you made these maps in 10 minutes. These maps are just too tight to play in BW and ofcourse there is some positional imbalances.
Found one Scrap Station too:
wow this one actually looks pretty decent, just need to fix the left side ramp a bit to allow a forge-fe (right side looks possible) and put cc-block minerals on the islands, and this could be a semi-interesting map to play on
Whats funny about that is scrap station is a horrible map in SC2. I don't think any games have been played on it in something like a year now? Might be longer than that.
Also I thought those two islands had destroyable rocks with a path, not a full island? Or have I just not played scrap station in too long.
On January 22 2012 21:33 BrosephBrostar wrote: When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
it's largely because of vP match-ups (especially pvp.) Things like warp-in and gateway rushes means that you can't really stray away from the highground main/small choke set-up. There's a lot of talk about maps like tal darim being bad maps because of this. To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
It looks really weird to see the last map you have there, know it is supposed to be BW "Lost Temple," and yet the 1'oclock player isn't taking his natural towards the 6'oclock. I'll love you forever, Lost Temple
On January 22 2012 21:33 BrosephBrostar wrote: When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
it's largely because of vP match-ups (especially pvp.) Things like warp-in and gateway rushes means that you can't really stray away from the highground main/small choke set-up. There's a lot of talk about maps like tal darim being bad maps because of this. To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
A lot of BW maps are pretty standard too, but there's some cool ones every once in a while like Triathlon or this season's Chain Reaction.
On January 22 2012 21:33 BrosephBrostar wrote: When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
it's largely because of vP match-ups (especially pvp.) Things like warp-in and gateway rushes means that you can't really stray away from the highground main/small choke set-up. There's a lot of talk about maps like tal darim being bad maps because of this. To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
A lot of BW maps are pretty standard too, but there's some pretty cool ones every once in a while like Triathlon or this season's Chain Reaction.
It'd be pretty funny if a SC2 map came out that had neutral motherships hovering around the map, concealing the... the... oh wait. No lurkers eggs T_T
Well, expect to see a tournament on these maps soon .
These are really neat!
On January 22 2012 14:10 GhandiEAGLE wrote: It is funny how lame these maps look when compared to actual, good BroodWar maps... XD
Maybe one day Sc2 will catch on, I'm hoping they do!
Well, most of these are the Blizzard map pool, and the old blizzard maps at that.
On January 22 2012 18:39 Talin wrote: Only Tal Darim looks like an "acceptable" BW map at first sight, most of the others look like Python/LT clones or some of those obscure maps from early 2000s.
It would be interesting to see some of the newer maps like Cloud Kingdom.
Tal'Darim was one of the first GSL maps. It was explicitly designed to emulate/rip off BW maps because no one really knew how to make good SC2 maps, but Steppes of War was clearly not cutting it. A lot of the new SC2 maps are based off BW maps, still (Daybreak is Tiamat, etc).
On January 22 2012 21:33 BrosephBrostar wrote: When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
All these maps ARE blizzard. GSL Maps are generally better. Though, if you're going to do SC2 maps, I want the really REALLY awful ones like Blistering Sands.
On January 23 2012 06:01 Coriolis wrote: Whats funny about that is scrap station is a horrible map in SC2. I don't think any games have been played on it in something like a year now? Might be longer than that.
Also I thought those two islands had destroyable rocks with a path, not a full island? Or have I just not played scrap station in too long.
It is indeed a terrible map in sc2 and everyone pretty much agrees upon this. It was taken out of all map pools quite a while ago.
On January 23 2012 06:05 Quotidian wrote: To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
cmon, that's just ignorant. Almost all standard mapping concepts used in SC2 come from BW pro-maps, which is the fruit of almost a decade of map-making and testing. Just because most standard maps don't feature destructible rocks all over the place doesn't mean it's not creative.
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
On January 22 2012 14:10 GhandiEAGLE wrote: It is funny how lame these maps look when compared to actual, good BroodWar maps... XD
Maybe one day Sc2 will catch on, I'm hoping they do!
lLOL yea.. they look like maps from the beginnings of BW. or worse.
You have to give it to the editor too... ofc. the maps look bad without doodads and detailed mapping.
Edit: I am a really good mapmaker but I don't see why converting SC2 maps into BW is a good idea unless they start producing some interesting maps for SC2(in comparison to BW mapping.)
Well, it was never really a serious venture, just something I did when bored over the summer. I never really wanted to prove a point or anything. I just wanted to do something cool that few other people have done already, and mapmaking is actually kinda fun in it's own weird way.
On January 22 2012 16:05 konadora wrote: So tempted to work on some of these maps :3
Haha, you should. Didn't you remake Kulas Ravine a while back? That was pretty cool.
On January 22 2012 19:39 SiaBBo wrote: They look very weird. If would never play these in BW cuz they look very imba and will not just work. I hope you put some more effor like decorating the map and don't just rush to finish, it really looks like you made these maps in 10 minutes. These maps are just too tight to play in BW and ofcourse there is some positional imbalances.
Found one Scrap Station too:
wow this one actually looks pretty decent, just need to fix the left side ramp a bit to allow a forge-fe (right side looks possible) and put cc-block minerals on the islands, and this could be a semi-interesting map to play on
Hmmm, I think that version of Scrap Station is based on the outdated version of Scrap Station from the SC2 Alpha or something. It doesn't really match up to the most current ladder version, though it looks fantastic.
On January 23 2012 08:19 Ribbon wrote: Well, expect to see a tournament on these maps soon .
These are really neat!
Hehe, that would be really cool, though I would be feeling a strange mix of being flattered and embarrassed since tbh my rendition of these maps are really BAAAAAAAD. A tournament would be awesome, but think it would be best to hold it on some maps that have some semblance of balance rather than on these abominations that I had created haha.
However, if you really want to use these maps for a tournament, then I would be more than happy to let you. The modest guy in me is just screaming in my head about how amateur and imbalanced these maps are rofl.
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
That SC2 version of Match Point is pretty good. I played on it a few times in SC2BW, and it's really well-done. I liked how they fixed the ramp layout that was slightly weird in the original BW version.
Pretty fun to play around on, when I first loaded up Metalopolis I was like "oh shit did I load the wrong map, its all pasture here!". Once I scouted I got the picture though, well done on these! ^^
On January 23 2012 14:29 DYEAlabaster wrote: All the maps except metal look pretty cool. I dunno what it is about metal, it just looks... off.
Pretty cool experiment, maybe if only to see how SC2 maps would work in BW (like we saw lots of BW maps in sc2)
Tbh, I'm not very proud of my Metalopolis. Maybe that is a likely candidate to be redone at some point eventually maybe perhaps possibly.
The way I made most of the maps is that I got an image off of Liquipedia, then superimposed it into a BW map using SC Picture Mapper, then tried to make an actual BW map by tracing over the converted image.
However, since the image is completely top-down while the BW mapmaker is isometric, there was a ton of distortion after the "tracing" phase, which is probably why some of the maps look a bit off or asymmetric.
However, I completely eyeballed the creation of Lost/Shattered Temple, which I made before I started to use the method that I just described.
Overall these are pretty good, even though the aesthetics could use some work. Some things you might want to think about:
-You should use the standard gas placement for the mains (gas either directly on top or to the left of the main building; proven to be most efficient). -BW maps tend not to have much airspace, you should try to push the bases/outer parts of the map out as far as possible. -If you're using scmdraft2 you could try using the symmetry tools to make stuff a bit more even. -At the "gold bases" maybe you could stack chunks of 2 minerals to save space and make them look a bit more like the sc2 maps.
On a related note, how did you add the neutral destructible buildings? I've tried a couple ways in scmdraft2 but the buildings never show up in game for me...
Edit: Saw another pretty big problem. The middle-ground ridges between the vertical naturals and between the naturals and the top and bottom bases on Shakuras Plateau appear to be pathable. I know this is the tileset's fault and there isn't much that can be done about it besides blocking the path with minerals or something stupid, but it's still a major problem. I'd recommend just modifying the map so that the main is on the same cliff level as the natural (fortunately not a balance problem in BW lol) and raising everything one cliff level to avoid using that annoying lowest cliff level.
On January 23 2012 06:05 Quotidian wrote: To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
cmon, that's just ignorant. Almost all standard mapping concepts used in SC2 come from BW pro-maps, which is the fruit of almost a decade of map-making and testing. Just because most standard maps don't feature destructible rocks all over the place doesn't mean it's not creative.
who said anything about rocks = creativity? (and considering how a lot of BW maps have paths that open up when you destroy blocking structures-- I really don't see your point)
On January 23 2012 17:23 -NegativeZero- wrote: Overall these are pretty good, even though the aesthetics could use some work. Some things you might want to think about:
-You should use the standard gas placement for the mains (gas either directly on top or to the left of the main building; proven to be most efficient). -BW maps tend not to have much airspace, you should try to push the bases/outer parts of the map out as far as possible. -If you're using scmdraft2 you could try using the symmetry tools to make stuff a bit more even. -At the "gold bases" maybe you could stack chunks of 2 minerals to save space and make them look a bit more like the sc2 maps.
On a related note, how did you add the neutral destructible buildings? I've tried a couple ways in scmdraft2 but the buildings never show up in game for me...
Edit: Saw another pretty big problem. The middle-ground ridges between the vertical naturals and between the naturals and the top and bottom bases on Shakuras Plateau appear to be pathable. I know this is the tileset's fault and there isn't much that can be done about it besides blocking the path with minerals or something stupid, but it's still a major problem. I'd recommend just modifying the map so that the main is on the same cliff level as the natural (fortunately not a balance problem in BW lol) and raising everything one cliff level to avoid using that annoying lowest cliff level.
Ah, ok. These are great suggestions, and I will definitely keep them in mind the next time I go back into mapmaking.
Tbh, I'm not proud of my Shakuras. I think it is definitely one of my weaker maps, if not the worst. The double cliffs are especially troublesome, which is why I haven't done Antiga yet. I probably will end up remaking the entire map at a later time.
As far as neutral buildings go, you have to use the Unit Sprites under the Sprites category rather than use the normal Units category. At least that is how I got my neutral buildings to work.
As far as airspace goes, I tried copying SC2 maps as much as possible, including the massive amount of airspace that they have. I guess less airspace would be better balanced, but I was aiming more for a direct copy rather than balance.
On January 23 2012 06:05 Quotidian wrote: To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
cmon, that's just ignorant. Almost all standard mapping concepts used in SC2 come from BW pro-maps, which is the fruit of almost a decade of map-making and testing. Just because most standard maps don't feature destructible rocks all over the place doesn't mean it's not creative.
who said anything about rocks = creativity? (and considering how a lot of BW maps have paths that open up when you destroy blocking structures-- I really don't see your point)
The rock thing was a little joke, I guess I should've made it more obvious but my point (not about the rocks) still stands
Suggestions: -Scrap Yard no high ground mineral nat? Isn't there supposed to be minerals up there or were they removed at some point? I don't follow SCII so I wouldn't know but I remember minerals being there...
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
We stopped doing that because really, it's better just to make an entirely new map than to try and fit an old map into SC2. The two games share a lot of mapping concepts but you can't just take one and put it in the other expecting it to work out.
A problem with bringing SC2 maps into SC1 is that they're just a lot bigger. Starcraft 1 max competitive mapsize has always been 128x128. In SC2, it reaches upwards of 160x160 or so. There's also the scaling issue in Starcraft 1 where the Y length is larger than the X length so it's even harder to port SC2 maps. You can compensate somewhat, but it's really difficult overall to get (good) SC2 maps to SC1.
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
We stopped doing that because really, it's better just to make an entirely new map than to try and fit an old map into SC2. The two games share a lot of mapping concepts but you can't just take one and put it in the other expecting it to work out.
A problem with bringing SC2 maps into SC1 is that they're just a lot bigger. Starcraft 1 max competitive mapsize has always been 128x128. In SC2, it reaches upwards of 160x160 or so. There's also the scaling issue in Starcraft 1 where the Y length is larger than the X length so it's even harder to port SC2 maps. You can compensate somewhat, but it's really difficult overall to get (good) SC2 maps to SC1.
I always thought it was weird that SC2 maps feel so tiny even though their dimensions are often a lot bigger. Is it just an illusion or did they change the way distance is mapped?
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
We stopped doing that because really, it's better just to make an entirely new map than to try and fit an old map into SC2. The two games share a lot of mapping concepts but you can't just take one and put it in the other expecting it to work out.
A problem with bringing SC2 maps into SC1 is that they're just a lot bigger. Starcraft 1 max competitive mapsize has always been 128x128. In SC2, it reaches upwards of 160x160 or so. There's also the scaling issue in Starcraft 1 where the Y length is larger than the X length so it's even harder to port SC2 maps. You can compensate somewhat, but it's really difficult overall to get (good) SC2 maps to SC1.
I always thought it was weird that SC2 maps feel so tiny even though their dimensions are often a lot bigger. Is it just an illusion or did they change the way distance is mapped?
I think it has something to do with how big portion of the map you see on screen. Even with maps of same size, SC2 one will feel smaller because your view is not as zoomed as in BW ... Haven't played BW for very long time, so I can't confirm it, but that's my impression from watching BW - zoomed in view contributes in map size feel.
On January 22 2012 21:33 BrosephBrostar wrote: When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
half of the sc2 maps he converted ARE blizzard maps. which is part of that problem. but yeah we currently have mediocre map pools, but instead of having it lead to some STUPID abuse like truly bad maps led to in brood war, we just get mediocre games on bad maps.
EDIT: but it's really interesting to port into BW. i think more map makers should port their maps into brood war, edit it to make it a better BW map, and then report back to sc2 and see what comes of it.
Also, as of my earlier post on this page, in Kulass Ravine@ Broodwarmaps.net there is an example of how to make sight blockers in SCBW. I'm actually kind of surprised there hasn't been people trying out sight blockers in BW. Could become quite interesting.
On January 25 2012 05:16 3FFA wrote: Also, as of my earlier post on this page, in Kulass Ravine@ Broodwarmaps.net there is an example of how to make sight blockers in SCBW. I'm actually kind of surprised there hasn't been people trying out sight blockers in BW. Could become quite interesting.
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
We stopped doing that because really, it's better just to make an entirely new map than to try and fit an old map into SC2. The two games share a lot of mapping concepts but you can't just take one and put it in the other expecting it to work out.
A problem with bringing SC2 maps into SC1 is that they're just a lot bigger. Starcraft 1 max competitive mapsize has always been 128x128. In SC2, it reaches upwards of 160x160 or so. There's also the scaling issue in Starcraft 1 where the Y length is larger than the X length so it's even harder to port SC2 maps. You can compensate somewhat, but it's really difficult overall to get (good) SC2 maps to SC1.
I always thought it was weird that SC2 maps feel so tiny even though their dimensions are often a lot bigger. Is it just an illusion or did they change the way distance is mapped?
I think it has something to do with how big portion of the map you see on screen. Even with maps of same size, SC2 one will feel smaller because your view is not as zoomed as in BW ... Haven't played BW for very long time, so I can't confirm it, but that's my impression from watching BW - zoomed in view contributes in map size feel.
you cant technically compare sc2 map sizes to bw map sizes but in general bw maps can be considered larger. mostly because of deathball syndrome really. when you watch bw, units are spaced much further apart, and also, they are running and moving around fucking everywhere on the map at any given time so you need the space. in sc2 you'll often hear complaints about too much open space and other stuff.
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
We stopped doing that because really, it's better just to make an entirely new map than to try and fit an old map into SC2. The two games share a lot of mapping concepts but you can't just take one and put it in the other expecting it to work out.
A problem with bringing SC2 maps into SC1 is that they're just a lot bigger. Starcraft 1 max competitive mapsize has always been 128x128. In SC2, it reaches upwards of 160x160 or so. There's also the scaling issue in Starcraft 1 where the Y length is larger than the X length so it's even harder to port SC2 maps. You can compensate somewhat, but it's really difficult overall to get (good) SC2 maps to SC1.
I always thought it was weird that SC2 maps feel so tiny even though their dimensions are often a lot bigger. Is it just an illusion or did they change the way distance is mapped?
I think it has something to do with how big portion of the map you see on screen. Even with maps of same size, SC2 one will feel smaller because your view is not as zoomed as in BW ... Haven't played BW for very long time, so I can't confirm it, but that's my impression from watching BW - zoomed in view contributes in map size feel.
you cant technically compare sc2 map sizes to bw map sizes but in general bw maps can be considered larger. mostly because of deathball syndrome really. when you watch bw, units are spaced much further apart, and also, they are running and moving around fucking everywhere on the map at any given time so you need the space. in sc2 you'll often hear complaints about too much open space and other stuff.
Every map has 15-45% of the map unpathable by ground units in SC2...doesn't even use the entire map borders...
Hehe, I have literally ZERO experience with the SC2 map editor. There are plenty of more qualified mapmakers out there to do that job lol. The version of Circuit Breaker that is being used in the SC2BW mod is particularly awesome.
Back when they were called ICCUP, ESV did a lot of SC2 ports of BW maps. The SC2 version of Match Point got a day[9] daily analyzing why BW maps and BW-style maps were more interesting that the SC2 maps of the time. There aren't really any good "SC2" maps, yet. There are only BW maps that have been tweaked for SC2.
We stopped doing that because really, it's better just to make an entirely new map than to try and fit an old map into SC2. The two games share a lot of mapping concepts but you can't just take one and put it in the other expecting it to work out.
A problem with bringing SC2 maps into SC1 is that they're just a lot bigger. Starcraft 1 max competitive mapsize has always been 128x128. In SC2, it reaches upwards of 160x160 or so. There's also the scaling issue in Starcraft 1 where the Y length is larger than the X length so it's even harder to port SC2 maps. You can compensate somewhat, but it's really difficult overall to get (good) SC2 maps to SC1.
I always thought it was weird that SC2 maps feel so tiny even though their dimensions are often a lot bigger. Is it just an illusion or did they change the way distance is mapped?
I think it has something to do with how big portion of the map you see on screen. Even with maps of same size, SC2 one will feel smaller because your view is not as zoomed as in BW ... Haven't played BW for very long time, so I can't confirm it, but that's my impression from watching BW - zoomed in view contributes in map size feel.
you cant technically compare sc2 map sizes to bw map sizes but in general bw maps can be considered larger. mostly because of deathball syndrome really. when you watch bw, units are spaced much further apart, and also, they are running and moving around fucking everywhere on the map at any given time so you need the space. in sc2 you'll often hear complaints about too much open space and other stuff.
Every map has 15-45% of the map unpathable by ground units in SC2...doesn't even use the entire map borders...
Even accounting for this, it's still a bit too big. You could fit it in, but it probably wouldn't fit WELL.
I've also wondered how map conversions from broodwar to sc2 would turn out? I'd love to see a SC2 fighting spirit, benzene or chain reaction.. even python would be cool imo.
Another thing that is way different about sc2 maps is that there is a ton of open space around ground area of the map. This doesn't really happen in BW because it would make air pretty brutal to deal with as Terran.
Not the most detailed ports in the world, but boy did I have a good chuckle looking through and guessing which map each one was supposed to be. Scrap Station especially made me lol. Nice work, very cool. Might have a SC2 maps in BW tournament with some friends :D
On January 22 2012 21:33 BrosephBrostar wrote: When you compare the SC2 maps to current BW ones it really makes you wonder what happened to the SC2 mapmakers' creativity. It's like they all caught some kind of disease from Blizzard.
it's largely because of vP match-ups (especially pvp.) Things like warp-in and gateway rushes means that you can't really stray away from the highground main/small choke set-up. There's a lot of talk about maps like tal darim being bad maps because of this. To be honest though, I don't see what's so amazingly creative about BW maps either.
If you look at older maps there's more "creativity", but honestly standardizing maps played a huge role in balancing Brood War. The most extreme example is of course the whole island map thing. Even newer maps like Outlier, aLternative, and Triathlon have the basic main+nat+features layout around which BW was finally balanced. And I really do mean "finally": Alchemist (from 2004-2005) has a main+nat structure, but the natural is impossibly far away for modern play; and even then the open backdoor + highly constricted surface area + imbalanced mains would make it absurd. Even a more "standard" map from that era like Xeno Sky has a huge main to nat distance.
Of course, some of the changes are due, to demonstrate a converse, to compensation for a changing metagame.
On that consideration, it may in fact be a mistake to try to force SC2 into the BW mold that says two bases are minimum for standard play: resource collection seems higher relative to time, especially for gas, compared to BW (i.e. viability of 1-1-1 builds and the existence of warp-in based rushes). On the other hand, if the 2-base model is consciously adopted then Blizzard (or potentially a league which wants to do its own balancing via custom maps) has a specific map layout in mind to work from and that ideal will actually prove useful.
Short version: I maintain the main problem with SC2 maps so far is simply the wasted space – we really have no idea how the SC2 metagame will play out yet, especially since we're missing two expansions.
Even shorter version: creativity is over-rated; balance (whatever that demands) is the goal.
Lovely conversions. It's really funny how these maps remind me of the old SC maps like blood bath. Really shows you how much farther along the pro bw maps are compared to the stock sc2 maps... Don't worry one day we'll have really good map makers making sc2 maps.
I think the only one that I kinda like is Tal'Darim the rest just look not fun.
On the subject of SC2 maps I think a big factor is the role tournament organizers play. Even though Blizzard has claimed that tournaments are free to use whatever maps they want, it feels like they all want to stay pretty close to the ladder pool as a consideration for amateur and semi-pro players (ie everyone that isn't in a Korean team). I think SC2 is going to be stuck with Dustin Browder's idea of good maps until the community abandons the idea that laddering is an acceptable way to practice for tournaments.
On January 25 2012 21:15 BrosephBrostar wrote: On the subject of SC2 maps I think a big factor is the role tournament organizers play. Even though Blizzard has claimed that tournaments are free to use whatever maps they want, it feels like they all want to stay pretty close to the ladder pool as a consideration for amateur and semi-pro players (ie everyone that isn't in a Korean team). I think SC2 is going to be stuck with Dustin Browder's idea of good maps until the community abandons the idea that laddering is an acceptable way to practice for tournaments.
Well, the focus is starting to shift right now. Many tournaments start to use community maps now (like NASL, IPL and the ESL) that are radically different from Blizzard maps. My favorite right now is Atlantis Spaceship (Blizzard would NEVER make something like that. There are no rocks :p). I'm not sure if it's even remakeable in BW though (mainly because of the reich vespene geysers).
On January 25 2012 16:47 mizU wrote: LOL this would be so funny on BW.
I'm glad you think so, because I 100% intend to sponsor a tournament on these maps.
I'm trying to decide if I should do that soon, or wait for any revisions to be made and do my other idea of "Zerg-only invitational; Spires banned".
If you're serious, please no. These maps are badddddddd quality. Seriously. I could cook up a half-decent Tal'darim altar but it's a bad idea to use these maps. No offense to the creator.
EPT
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MorroW himself, or so it seems.
goodbye pristine record...
Now finally I can put them into use. Thanks for the hard work!![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/pics/4206.jpg)
