EPTNot that it means anything inherently, but it's funny you say that when he's obviously been a member for a year and half longer than you.
Power Rank Discussion Thread - Page 28
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Not that it means anything inherently, but it's funny you say that when he's obviously been a member for a year and half longer than you. | ||
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:19 Djabanete wrote: Not that it means anything inherently, but it's funny you say that when he's obviously been a member for a year and half longer than you. Then that makes his post even more idiotic if he's calling out Milkis of all people | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:31 Dakkas wrote: Then that makes his post even more idiotic if he's calling out Milkis of all people I've been here for over 3 years and I don't understand why Milkis deserves special treatment. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Pretty much this post is his only attempt to actually explain himself, and subsequently he mostly responds by stating that he's said enough already, or "Why don't you believe me". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301720¤tpage=6#103 Most importantly, he said "wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year." When you start rolling out the "probably's", you're in unconfirmed territory. And unconfirmed is exactly what a rumour is, especially when it's from SC2 coaches who do not set a foot inside BW practice houses. Maybe Jaedong vs Flying sucked just because Flying has never been a top player and JD was in the middle of a mini-slump... or maybe Flying is too busing practicing 4 Gate timings and JD forgot that only SC2 units shove each other aside. Do you actually think Bogus sucks at TvT because he's trying to make Hellions and Marauders and only realizes he can't too late? Have some dignity, Milkis. That's really what you implying in your post, and you wonder why we question you. And if you are going to bring it up, the discussion is going to shift this way, and you should be better prepared to defend yourself if you're going to be gracing a PR thread with a post like you did - or else you shouldn't post that at all. This thread should be for gentlemanly and lady-like discussion of the 10 best BW players at the moment, and I regret having to argue this but your post was not warned, so clearly the talk has regrettably been allowed to come to this thread, for now. | ||
Kiett
United States7639 Posts
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VGhost
United States3615 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that? Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup. Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well? | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:47 Crisium wrote: Well, he's right that Milkis has gotten more bitter when he has to continually defend his opinion, without evidence, in the face of skeptics. Pretty much this post is his only attempt to actually explain himself, and subsequently he mostly responds by stating that he's said enough already, or "Why don't you believe me". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301720¤tpage=6#103 Most importantly, he said "wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year." When you start rolling out the "probably's", you're in unconfirmed territory. And unconfirmed is exactly what a rumour is, especially when it's from SC2 coaches who do not set a foot inside BW practice houses. Maybe Jaedong vs Flying sucked just because Flying has never been a top player and JD was in the middle of a mini-slump... or maybe Flying is too busing practicing 4 Gate timings and JD forgot that only SC2 units shove each other aside. Do you actually think Bogus sucks at TvT because he's trying to make Hellions and Marauders and only realizes he can't too late? Have some dignity, Milkis. That's really what you implying in your post, and you wonder why we question you. And if you are going to bring it up, the discussion is going to shift this way, and you should be better prepared to defend yourself if you're going to be gracing a PR thread with a post like you did - or else you shouldn't post that at all. This thread should be for gentlemanly and lady-like discussion of the 10 best BW players at the moment, and I regret having to argue this but your post was not warned, so clearly the talk has regrettably been allowed to come to this thread, for now. That is very win | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:23 VGhost wrote: Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup. Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well? I'm pretty sure the lesson learned that game was not to go early 4 base in ZvP anymore. This is the first season in a long time that P>Z statistically, as your own analysis of the maps has concluded. Many of the PvZ wins are off of two-base pushes that just don't die. This season, two-base Protoss is damn good (this pleases me, btw). And you know that Protoss balls of death in BW PvZ are nothing new. I'll admit that just having them in the middle of the map for a while is not the norm, but JD was too busy macroing off his quick 4 bases to be able to offer any kind of pressure. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:23 VGhost wrote: Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup. Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well? Honestly, it just look like BeSt's playstyle man. Plus deathball in PvZ is old as hell (go rewatch free vs jaedong on athena). The hardcore two base "all ins" are also very map dependent too. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On February 15 2012 13:33 ShadeR wrote: Please understand that this is not the Milkis Hyung of a year ago. I need some elaboration for this statement. | ||
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soujiro_
Uruguay5195 Posts
lets go back to power rank talking bisu too high turn should go up jd mia is fine he will come back eventually and lovely shot-out to sin  | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:47 Crisium wrote: Well, he's right that Milkis has gotten more bitter when he has to continually defend his opinion, without evidence, in the face of skeptics. Pretty much this post is his only attempt to actually explain himself, and subsequently he mostly responds by stating that he's said enough already, or "Why don't you believe me". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301720¤tpage=6#103 Most importantly, he said "wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year." When you start rolling out the "probably's", you're in unconfirmed territory. And unconfirmed is exactly what a rumour is, especially when it's from SC2 coaches who do not set a foot inside BW practice houses. Maybe Jaedong vs Flying sucked just because Flying has never been a top player and JD was in the middle of a mini-slump... or maybe Flying is too busing practicing 4 Gate timings and JD forgot that only SC2 units shove each other aside. Do you actually think Bogus sucks at TvT because he's trying to make Hellions and Marauders and only realizes he can't too late? Have some dignity, Milkis. That's really what you implying in your post, and you wonder why we question you. And if you are going to bring it up, the discussion is going to shift this way, and you should be better prepared to defend yourself if you're going to be gracing a PR thread with a post like you did - or else you shouldn't post that at all. This thread should be for gentlemanly and lady-like discussion of the 10 best BW players at the moment, and I regret having to argue this but your post was not warned, so clearly the talk has regrettably been allowed to come to this thread, for now. You don't think there's been a little bit too many cheesy strats this season so far, given the number of games? Don't you find it strange that there's no OSL? Don't you find it strange that none of the players are complaining about there being too little to prepare for and somehow perfectly feel happy just preparing for the maybe one or two games a week? Maybe even the change in Ace game format is also to give people less pressure to prepare for BW? How do you justify paying 250K salary when they only play one game a week? That's A LOT of money. Don't you find it scary that Team 8 still doesn't have a sponsor? Where does that money come from? KeSPA is paying for it? Combine that with all of the stuff I said "possibly" might be happening. What's the most likely explanation? There's *a lot* of pieces out there, and a lot of things that are just really strange, behaviors flip flopping etc. The trail starts from May 2011. It's not about me being bitter... it's just that it frustrates me that people are so damning about the possibility. But I think it's something that people should accept more and more. The play this season has been subpar no matter how you justify it... the number of mistakes being made by any player is just absolutely insane. It's sloppy. They're preparing less for each game, despite there being less games in a season. Anyway back on topic. I think the PR is really good. I might consider putting Soulkey above Fantasy, but I'm also biased against Fantasy. Good PR flamewheel yay | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 1) You don't think there's been a little bit too many cheesy strats this season so far, given the number of games? Maps. 2) Don't you find it strange that there's no OSL? League of Legends 3) Don't you find it strange that none of the players are complaining about there being too little to prepare for and somehow perfectly feel happy just preparing for the maybe one or two games a week? No. 4) Maybe even the change in Ace game format is also to give people less pressure to prepare for BW? They had to go best of 5 again, but with the reduced teams they could not have an ACE or else too few players would play. 5) How do you justify paying 250K salary when they only play one game a week? That's A LOT of money. When your team mascot is actually Flash, it's justified. 6) Don't you find it scary that Team 8 still doesn't have a sponsor? Where does that money come from? KeSPA is paying for it? Yes, the other 7 teams, yes The play this season has been subpar no matter how you justify it... the number of mistakes being made by any player is just absolutely insane. It's sloppy. They're preparing less for each game, despite there being less games in a season. I see Flash playing better than ever. I see Stork being typical greatness with flaws (macro monster, shuttle/Reaver micro king, low APM problems with multitasking). Bisu went 5-2 last round despite no Zergs, he's getting too much hate imo. Best is a PvZ boss all of a sudden. Stats is incredibly solid overall in all matchups. Bogus' TvP is phenomenal (TvT, whatever). Light is still executing TvZ like an art (truly comparable to Flash). Leta is still making 2 Port Wraith look like an auto-win vs Z and is out Vulturing freaking Fantasy head-to-head. Baby has shown some nice domination such as drop play against Wooki and Lift/Land micro vs ZerO. Speaking of the Crown Prince, Fantasy's bio is better than EVER, and his TvT is still absurdly strong. Last and Turn are showing awesome aggression. Movie's recent ZvP was Bisu-esque. And freaking Neo.g_Soulkey is unbelievably awesome right now (burrowed lings... so good, not to mention I'm still impressed by his game versus Bogus). JangBi still has awesome shuttle micro against Terrans and is only out of PR contention due to all Zergs last round. I see sloppy play, but I see plenty of things that make me love the play this season. I vehemently disagree that this season is a major step down in quality. At the absolute most, it's proportionally slightly lower due to no aces. Although if you want to convince me that Sea is practicing SC2, I believe you. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
*Too much cheese? Really? Strategic openings have always been the hallmark of well-prepared games. Anyway. Jaedong, please stop practicing SC2 and get yourself back on the Power Rank. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7903 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:52 Crisium wrote: To answer the questions: + Show Spoiler + 1) You don't think there's been a little bit too many cheesy strats this season so far, given the number of games? Maps. 2) Don't you find it strange that there's no OSL? League of Legends 3) Don't you find it strange that none of the players are complaining about there being too little to prepare for and somehow perfectly feel happy just preparing for the maybe one or two games a week? No. 4) Maybe even the change in Ace game format is also to give people less pressure to prepare for BW? They had to go best of 5 again, but with the reduced teams they could not have an ACE or else too few players would play. 5) How do you justify paying 250K salary when they only play one game a week? That's A LOT of money. When your team mascot is actually Flash, it's justified. 6) Don't you find it scary that Team 8 still doesn't have a sponsor? Where does that money come from? KeSPA is paying for it? Yes, the other 7 teams, yes I see Flash playing better than ever. I see Stork being typical greatness with flaws (macro monster, shuttle/Reaver micro king, low APM problems with multitasking). Bisu went 5-2 last round despite no Zergs, he's getting too much hate imo. Best is a PvZ boss all of a sudden. Stats is incredibly solid overall in all matchups. Bogus' TvP is phenomenal (TvT, whatever). Light is still executing TvZ like an art (truly comparable to Flash). Leta is still making 2 Port Wraith look like an auto-win vs Z and is out Vulturing freaking Fantasy head-to-head. Baby has shown some nice domination such as drop play against Wooki and Lift/Land micro vs ZerO. Speaking of the Crown Prince, Fantasy's bio is better than EVER, and his TvT is still absurdly strong. Last and Turn are showing awesome aggression. Movie's recent ZvP was Bisu-esque. And freaking Neo.g_Soulkey is unbelievably awesome right now (burrowed lings... so good, not to mention I'm still impressed by his game versus Bogus). JangBi still has awesome shuttle micro against Terrans and is only out of PR contention due to all Zergs last round. I see sloppy play, but I see plenty of things that make me love the play this season. I vehemently disagree that this season is a major step down in quality. At the absolute most, it's proportionally slightly lower due to no aces. Although if you want to convince me that Sea is practicing SC2, I believe you. I also think that the fact they have one game a week and the fact there is so much cheese is somehow correlated. When you don't have time to prepare a game, you play standard most of the time. When you have a week to think about it, there is much much more mindgame and room for weird builds, cheese and unusual aggression. Pressure is higher, people prepare more, the game is just sharper. All the cheese I have seen this season were really well prepared, except for Jaedong rally mistake which was weird and lame. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
Whatever, I don't care if I turn out to be delusional, let they remember it as stalwart Brood War diehard til the end!  | ||
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VGhost
United States3615 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:33 corumjhaelen wrote: Honestly, it just look like BeSt's playstyle man. Plus deathball in PvZ is old as hell (go rewatch free vs jaedong on athena). The hardcore two base "all ins" are also very map dependent too. The difference in that game was that free didn't get any sort of "ball" till late-game. True, he played merry hell with JD's timing just with his half a control of zeals wandering around the middle of the map all game, but the situation was very different in a couple important ways: - the map. Athena's a weird map; Ground Zero's standard. - the metagame. Look at JD's build that game and wince. (free's build is more similar to modern PvZ, but equally "poorly" executed compared to today's tighter builds.) - the forces free had in the middle were mainly defensive, not offensive. Aside from denying the inner 12 o'clock, free basically didn't attack between his early game zeal pressure and his end of game deathball. I'm not really trying to say it's completely new - obviously the ideas of critical mass and armies being more effective when together are not new. And maybe it was just BeSt finally finding something that works. But it's a huge contrast to Bisu's artistic multi-task flailing, say, though really nobody plays like Bisu so I guess that's not really fair. | ||
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