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On October 23 2011 08:37 hydrogg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 04:46 Spuick wrote:On October 23 2011 04:32 HaFnium wrote:On October 22 2011 10:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I defer to the BW fans who have been around long enough to see the BW scene grow and change. But assuming BW does innately require more skill, is a better Starcraft game, and is better is most meaningful ways with respect to a competitive RTS, why hasn't is reached/reaching the levels of wide spread interest that SC2 is showing? What should be done differently to get this audience? If it is truly the better game, ultimately is shouldn't be confined to Korea. So giving the skill argument to BW, how does that contribute to making a better competitive game game to broadcast?
My question is not from the SC2 vs. BW game design necessarily, but from the SC2 vs. BW business models. I do think SC2 is partially inflated due to newness and constant spotlight attention, but things like Barcraft or the amount of money willing to be pushed into this game from 3rd party sources tells me SC2 is not just a fad that will go gently into that good night.
At the moment, BW may be superior to compete in, but SC2 is superior to sell and grow. I personally think a better use of a BW fan's time would be to take that BW passion and insight and try to mold SC2 in such a way as to avoid past pitfalls and to polish SC2 into it own BW (not BE BW). But it seems like because SC2 will never be BW, it can't become as successful as BW, which I think is filled with so many assumptions that it can't be anything other that trollbait opinion. SCBW has been doing exceptionally well. When SCBW was out there was nothing. no youtube, no livestreams, no commentaries, hell even no replay pre 1.08 patches. It wasn't designed with e-sport in mind at all but stll grew substantially. In fact I think its one of the most succesful game in driving e-sports forward. Why would blizzard make SC2 had they not seen the success of BW? And on the fading bit. Is classical music better or pop music the better music? Good/bad has nothing to do with popularity. Unfortunately the mass(refering to ppl like you) mainly like graphics and want new stuff so they tend to avoid old stuff. (consumerist) Due to the handicaps mentioned above it took BW quite long to development and by that time the mass would simply not play it. SC2 will meet the same fate, newer engines, graphics, gameplay might make it obsolete and we may have to see SC3. BW lasted at least 10 years (still going on of coz) and lets see how many years can SC2 last lol Yes. same deal in the FPS genré. quake is by far a better game then COD black ops in terms of skill, but quake is now almost gone from the scene, outside of a few selected tournaments that still holds em. Quake isn't fading out because of black ops. Black ops is only played at MLG. It is fading out because of LOL and SC2. and then there is still counter strike being played at almost every tournament. IEM, ESWC, WCG, Dreamhack, Estars Seoul, ESEA, ASUS, etc
COD isn't fading out, COD never "was there'.
It's just a boring game to watch, that dosn't take a lot of skill even at the top levels.
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On October 25 2011 11:29 Bagration wrote:
BW is a great game. But ultimately if it is to survive as a spectator sport, its graphics must be updated. Even with its great gameplay, eventually its graphics will become more and more primitive in comparison to the ever-glossy games being released right now. Of course the hard-core fans will always watch BW, but if we wanted to attract new fans, we do need to keep up with the aethestics.
Graphics does not equal great games. Just look at how boring and repetitive the sequel is in comparison with its glossy shiny graphics. People Still play Super Mario bros. for the Nintendo. Do you know why? Because the game itself is still awesome in so many ways. ^^
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MLG keeps cod around for the lodsofmone from sony/actvi sponsorship , and to get viewership from 16 year olds who don't know any better. There's no "pro scene" built around it, no official teams, no official sponsors anywhere.
At least not at cs sc2 levels.
Sorry to be this rude, but it's the truth, and no one is to blame really.
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On October 26 2011 02:13 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:24 hellbound wrote:On October 25 2011 13:22 chongu wrote:On October 25 2011 13:11 nalgene wrote:
There is a street fighter game that was remade with higher resolution textures at some point ( but it looked like they made changes to the game though... but they could have just kept everything the same but with only aesthetic changes... ) shouldn't be too hard to do the same for bw either... And some minor balance fixes and online capabilities. Pretty sure they've tossed ideas about making a HD version of BW hahaha. But definitely not soon enough to see it on TV/streams anymore ;_; Less graphics discussions please. I like my video games with edgy squares : P  please, don't go there. ohohohhohoho I can see it now .. Zealot build time nerf because 2gate proxy too strong at the D level, Barracks requires supply depot because proxy rax bunker rush too hard to defend at the D level, Siege Tank nerfed and marines buffed because more unit diversity is wanted in TvP, DT build time increased by 30 seconds because DT rush too strong at the D level THE POSSIBILITES ARE ENDLESS WITH BROWDER REBALANCING BW
Yeah! Just like they are balancing SC2 without any concern for high level play!
Oh wait.
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Pretty big strawman.
What he reproaches to the balance approach is that they are even concerned with low level play to begin with. Dustin Browder's interview with tl is pretty hilarious btw, it's more or less "Yeah, obviously there's a bit of a problem if you're a high level toss in korea, but hey, look what we have accomplished : it's perfectly balanced in EU gold league in exchange".
Anyway, one of the nicest thing about bw is that we don't have balance patches anymore.
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So, shouldn't they want the game to be fun (and thus - balanced) on all levels of play?
The way they balance the haven't hurt the competitve scene so far, you know.
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On October 26 2011 03:48 corumjhaelen wrote:
Pretty big strawman.
What he reproaches to the balance approach is that they are even concerned with low level play to begin with. Dustin Browder's interview with tl is pretty hilarious btw, it's more or less "Yeah, obviously there's a bit of a problem if you're a high level toss in korea, but hey, look what we have accomplished : it's perfectly balanced in EU gold league in exchange".
Anyway, one of the nicest thing about bw is that we don't have balance patches anymore.
are you serious ?
why do people have to talk trash for no reason?
or maybe you don't understand english well enough.
it's been said both at the panel and in that interview that the % is close to 50 everywhere (at high levels too, including master and grandmaster) but korea.
this means protoss players are doing fine outside of GSL code S and KR gm.
recently there has been a PvP final at MLG orlando yet people like you post bullshit all around the forums. yes, i would like to see more P in code S too... but your joke is just stupid and not funny because he obviously was addressing the balance answers in the right way, he never mentioned that he had to sacrifice balance at high level to make it playable for lower leaguers which is what your jokes makes it sound like.
get a clue please
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On October 26 2011 04:07 sunman1g wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 03:48 corumjhaelen wrote:
Pretty big strawman.
What he reproaches to the balance approach is that they are even concerned with low level play to begin with. Dustin Browder's interview with tl is pretty hilarious btw, it's more or less "Yeah, obviously there's a bit of a problem if you're a high level toss in korea, but hey, look what we have accomplished : it's perfectly balanced in EU gold league in exchange".
Anyway, one of the nicest thing about bw is that we don't have balance patches anymore. are you serious ? why do people have to talk trash for no reason? or maybe you don't understand english well enough. it's been said both at the panel and in that interview that the % is close to 50 everywhere (at high levels too, including master and grandmaster) but korea. this means protoss players are doing fine outside of GSL code S and KR gm. recently there has been a PvP final at MLG orlando yet people like you post bullshit all around the forums. yes, i would like to see more P in code S too... but your joke is just stupid and not funny because he obviously was addressing the balance answers in the right way, he never mentioned that he had to sacrifice balance at high level to make it playable for lower leaguers which is what your jokes makes it sound like. get a clue please
You do realize that BroodWar is only considered balanced because it works well at the highest possible level, not because some random foreign guys can win 50% of there games by not using their race to its highest level. Foreigner players are so bad (no offense ) that it doesn't even matter in Broodwar, and the same is true in SC2, though not to the same extent. In spite of this Blizzard insists on considering their game mostly balanced.
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On October 26 2011 03:22 BobTheBuilder1377 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 11:29 Bagration wrote:
BW is a great game. But ultimately if it is to survive as a spectator sport, its graphics must be updated. Even with its great gameplay, eventually its graphics will become more and more primitive in comparison to the ever-glossy games being released right now. Of course the hard-core fans will always watch BW, but if we wanted to attract new fans, we do need to keep up with the aethestics. Graphics does not equal great games. Just look at how boring and repetitive the sequel is in comparison with its glossy shiny graphics. People Still play Super Mario bros. for the Nintendo. Do you know why? Because the game itself is still awesome in so many ways. ^^
The game is awesome but unfortunately an awesome game by itself isn't enough to create a great spectator sport. You need exciting visuals, a great community, high production values, and skilled and entertaining commentators. Broodwar will always appeal as an E-sport to a certain sector of the population but as games advance visually the new games will probably make better spectator sports. Deep gameplay is only one of many necessary pieces to the e-sports puzzle. Thankfully though because Broodwar has such great gameplay and such a great community still behind it, it will last for a good while longer. 
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On October 26 2011 04:32 looknohands119 wrote:The game is awesome but unfortunately an awesome game by itself isn't enough to create a great spectator sport. You need exciting visuals, a great community, high production values, and skilled and entertaining commentators. Broodwar will always appeal as an E-sport to a certain sector of the population but as games advance visually the new games will probably make better spectator sports. Deep gameplay is only one of many necessary pieces to the e-sports puzzle. Thankfully though because Broodwar has such great gameplay and such a great community still behind it, it will last for a good while longer.
So when can I expect the NFL to start using translucent footballs with neon lights so that passes look like ~laser beams~ and to replace the turf with a massive LCD screen that makes the players look like they're playing in space?
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On October 26 2011 04:40 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:32 looknohands119 wrote:The game is awesome but unfortunately an awesome game by itself isn't enough to create a great spectator sport. You need exciting visuals, a great community, high production values, and skilled and entertaining commentators. Broodwar will always appeal as an E-sport to a certain sector of the population but as games advance visually the new games will probably make better spectator sports. Deep gameplay is only one of many necessary pieces to the e-sports puzzle. Thankfully though because Broodwar has such great gameplay and such a great community still behind it, it will last for a good while longer. So when can I expect the NFL to start using translucent footballs with neon lights so that passes look like ~laser beams~ and to replace the turf with a massive LCD screen that makes the players look like they're playing in space?
They tried something similar, actually. If you remember "Arena Football?"
It's honestly the best metaphor for BW </> SCII I have ever seen in my life.
*Fun fact, between the NFL and Arena league...one is still on TV. Hint hint 
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On October 26 2011 04:32 looknohands119 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 03:22 BobTheBuilder1377 wrote:On October 25 2011 11:29 Bagration wrote:
BW is a great game. But ultimately if it is to survive as a spectator sport, its graphics must be updated. Even with its great gameplay, eventually its graphics will become more and more primitive in comparison to the ever-glossy games being released right now. Of course the hard-core fans will always watch BW, but if we wanted to attract new fans, we do need to keep up with the aethestics. Graphics does not equal great games. Just look at how boring and repetitive the sequel is in comparison with its glossy shiny graphics. People Still play Super Mario bros. for the Nintendo. Do you know why? Because the game itself is still awesome in so many ways. ^^ The game is awesome but unfortunately an awesome game by itself isn't enough to create a great spectator sport. You need exciting visuals, a great community, high production values, and skilled and entertaining commentators. Broodwar will always appeal as an E-sport to a certain sector of the population but as games advance visually the new games will probably make better spectator sports. Deep gameplay is only one of many necessary pieces to the e-sports puzzle. Thankfully though because Broodwar has such great gameplay and such a great community still behind it, it will last for a good while longer.
Broodwar has all these. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go watch the Jinair OSL Final.
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On October 26 2011 04:40 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:32 looknohands119 wrote:The game is awesome but unfortunately an awesome game by itself isn't enough to create a great spectator sport. You need exciting visuals, a great community, high production values, and skilled and entertaining commentators. Broodwar will always appeal as an E-sport to a certain sector of the population but as games advance visually the new games will probably make better spectator sports. Deep gameplay is only one of many necessary pieces to the e-sports puzzle. Thankfully though because Broodwar has such great gameplay and such a great community still behind it, it will last for a good while longer. So when can I expect the NFL to start using translucent footballs with neon lights so that passes look like ~laser beams~ and to replace the turf with a massive LCD screen that makes the players look like they're playing in space?
That type of an upgrade would be quite expensive technologically; besides, I'm not sure if it would be feasible. A massive LCD screen that big would consume uber amounts of electricity. Also, I think it would fuck up the play because running on an LCD that shows you're in space...could cause nausea So it would bring other problems. But if there comes a demand in future...I guess it could happen...possibly.
There was a anime series with that kind of play, where they also fought stuff after that. Can't remember.
Anyways, I get your point tho :D
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On October 26 2011 04:40 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:32 looknohands119 wrote:The game is awesome but unfortunately an awesome game by itself isn't enough to create a great spectator sport. You need exciting visuals, a great community, high production values, and skilled and entertaining commentators. Broodwar will always appeal as an E-sport to a certain sector of the population but as games advance visually the new games will probably make better spectator sports. Deep gameplay is only one of many necessary pieces to the e-sports puzzle. Thankfully though because Broodwar has such great gameplay and such a great community still behind it, it will last for a good while longer. So when can I expect the NFL to start using translucent footballs with neon lights so that passes look like ~laser beams~ and to replace the turf with a massive LCD screen that makes the players look like they're playing in space?
rofl that would be awesome ^^
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Both sides in this terrible debate seriously need to calm down. The bias I am witnessing is mind-boggling.
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On October 26 2011 04:07 sunman1g wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 03:48 corumjhaelen wrote:
Pretty big strawman.
What he reproaches to the balance approach is that they are even concerned with low level play to begin with. Dustin Browder's interview with tl is pretty hilarious btw, it's more or less "Yeah, obviously there's a bit of a problem if you're a high level toss in korea, but hey, look what we have accomplished : it's perfectly balanced in EU gold league in exchange".
Anyway, one of the nicest thing about bw is that we don't have balance patches anymore. are you serious ? why do people have to talk trash for no reason? or maybe you don't understand english well enough. it's been said both at the panel and in that interview that the % is close to 50 everywhere (at high levels too, including master and grandmaster) but korea. this means protoss players are doing fine outside of GSL code S and KR gm. recently there has been a PvP final at MLG orlando yet people like you post bullshit all around the forums. yes, i would like to see more P in code S too... but your joke is just stupid and not funny because he obviously was addressing the balance answers in the right way, he never mentioned that he had to sacrifice balance at high level to make it playable for lower leaguers which is what your jokes makes it sound like. get a clue please
The point is the same way a low level player can't complain about OP when all he needs to do is play better, it doesn't make sense to balance the game for that player. It doesn't even make sense to talk about what balance means at that level.
A PvP final at one event (among a small sample of players) is just anecdotal.
And about his knowledge of English: he's respectful, uses capital letters, and knows what strawmanning and reproaching are. You'll have to work to get to that level.
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On October 20 2011 02:36 Gann1 wrote:
goodbye GSL, it was nice knowing you
Not like there isn't the MSL/OSL along with the proleague... why wouldn't the GSL and proleague coexist?
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omg! this is HUGE...I am kinda excited, but hopefully BW is still #1 in Korea
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This thread has become loool.
But yeah, I had assumed that Blizzard changed their balance aims since beta but in this recent interview, Browder straight up says they wont have units that noobs (bronze - diamond) cant use, and it's further exemplified by how proud he is about everything being close to 50% aside from the pros...
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If Blizzard and KeSPA cannot come to an agreement on SC2 I see the entire BW scene collapsing.
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EPT
