EPT
We'll come around soon, it's just sad for us to see our favorite game being phased out. What's with all the hostility? - Page 18
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
We'll come around soon, it's just sad for us to see our favorite game being phased out. | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On July 29 2011 14:05 Falling wrote: Was it cathartic? But I do think an underlying hate for SC2 for some posters is part of the equation. Not just SC2 trolls. If mere mentions of SC2 riles up BW-onlyists, then that's kinda their cross to bear and in my opinion makes our forum the poorer. But there it is. It's true... BW elitism isn't helping. It's both sides problem really. I hate sc2 for taking the spotlight away from both the better game and the harder-working(*cough*korean) players. Like WCG... I'm still convinced if SC2 were called anything other than "starcraft", it would have just joined the gigantic bin of so-so RTS games that are churned out. Maybe we would have a cute thread about it in the Sports & Games section. | ||
Falling
Canada11328 Posts
On July 29 2011 13:47 Sawamura wrote: judgement of decent post ? i just don't feel like tearing it apart imo .... First he categorized broodwar player to onlyist /loyalist/elitist and assume everyone is like that because after all ( we all hate sc2 and never even bother to try it out ) than talks about aggressiveness which in my opinion are pretty justified they came on put up a big parade about sc2 is the future for us bw fan's are in a state of probably losing years of history and prestige all wash down the drain and yet SOME people are not sensitive about it . It is definitely not acceptable that such things are allowed . I don't like it I gave a go at sc2 my terran units do not feel terran any more the powerful vultures are gone my siege tank are getting friendlier with my enemy units . The graphics looks as if i am playing warcraft in space 3d does not even make a happy person . I seriously tried and yet I cannot stand it . My friends some of them made the transition from bw -> sc2 the reason was they have nothing to learn ? That's totally bull shit bw has never stop evolving and it will not at this current stage . I don't like the matter of fact that people are discrediting broodwar and some of the sc2 players didn't even try to play bw at all and even they do probably BGH only and that call it a piece of trash . Bw has been a part of my child hood and until now still something very dearly for me . I won't allow people trash talk it as though it's some archaic bull shit that should be stomp to allow the majority to surpass it . As to your second paragraph, I think I more or less agree with it- except maybe your SC2 graphics dig. As to the first. You are reading in several things which I never said- particularly the part about assuming onlyists have never played SC2. I also don't think my post was quite so simplistic as you are making it aka BW player = elitist = everyone is like that. I specifically stated I prefer to play BW, actually I almost exclusively play BW, therefore my BW-onlyist label (which I'll admit is intended somewhat pejoratively) refers to a subset of BW players, actually a subset of BW posters that consistently express disdain for all things SC2 and are generally rather passive aggressive about it. Essentially the ones contributing to this negative vibe that would generate this comment: On July 28 2011 17:31 zatic wrote: You talk about disappointment. It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become. If you briefly pull away from the anti-fandom, this is what it can often look like- not all posters in the BW section, probably not even the majority. But just as outsiders looking in on the SC2 threads tends to see a lot of immature posters, an outsider looking on the the BW threads tends to see a lot of anger and resentment. than talks about aggressiveness which in my opinion are pretty justified they came on put up a big parade about sc2 is the future for us bw fan's are in a state of probably losing years of history and prestige all wash down the drain and yet SOME people are not sensitive about it . It is definitely not acceptable that such things are allowed . Still trying to figure this part out, but I don't think passive-aggressive posts or derision/ scorn is ever justified. Even if one doesn't like SC2- which is fine to not like a given game. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On July 29 2011 13:34 Falling wrote: I don't know, but this to me is the whole us vs them. Seriously, SC2 fandom is made up of a lot of BW fans. The two are not mutually exclusive. I wholly agree with zatic's 'one community' sentiment as I find myself in both camps. I prefer to play BW and follow BW proleagues on and off (I really wish there was consistent English commentary like the old GOMTV/ SC2GG days), but diligently follow SC2. A good portion of foreign players are BW fans- listen to Day9 talk nostalgic about BW. For most foreigners it hasn't be come an either/or. I can't speak for all of the BW old guard, but only for me personally, but I believe it is fairly representative. I have no problem with SC2 or the SC2 community, I don't personally like the game, but I'm happy(or at least not particularly unhappy) to share TL with you people, certainly I have nothing against people who enjoy following both games, thats just means there is a common interest we share that I don't share with the SC2 only part of the community. My problem is not with the existence of the SC2, or the presence of it's community on TL, even if it has brought me some inconvenience in terms of site layout, they are irritations I don't particularly fuss over. Morever, I am more than happy, if members of the SC2 community want to talk about BW on the BW forums, and if you've seen the strategy forum threads for people who want to give BW a go, you will see the sentiment is widespread, we go out of our way to overlook minor etiquette faux paus in creating strategy forum threads for these very people. On July 29 2011 13:34 Falling wrote: I agree there are some very insensitive SC2 trolls that don't know the history of BW. But the BW-onlyists have become very sensitive to any mention of SC2. And quite honestly, I do see the "I minimize SC2 forums, har, har, har" as a form of passive-aggression. The actual act no. That's a customization and preference choice. But very few conversations go by without BW-onlyists feeling compelled to demonstrate their disdain for all thing SC2 by parading around this fact as though increasing their BW cred. But here's the kicker. BW-onlyists are not the only BW fans. Fans of SC2 have not necessarily 'moved on.' zatic I can only imagine is still a BW fan. However, there is just a fairly vocal culture of posters within the BW threads that delights in passive-aggressive pokes at SC2 or expressing their morale outrage at the latest travesty of some 12 year old SC2 troll. That said, I am going to put up my hands here, say I am guilty, and I'm not repentant, and this is why. My problem is, specifically, when people talk about SC2 on the BW forums. I have to again raise my hand in guilt, when you say that people like me become very sensitive to any mention of SC2 in the bw forums, and here is why. I have mentioned already, way earlier in this thread, that we have looked to SC2 and found it wanting. Personally, I think it's a fairly decent game, as with all blizzard games, it is well polished, well thought out and well produced as computer games go, and I fully intend to play through the single player campaigns when I can find the time. What it is not, for me and many like me, is the successor to BW that we had hoped. But, hey thats just us. Now you mention that many of use minimize our SC2 forums (again, guilty). Well for me at least, this is not passive aggression, it is simply that I have given SC2 more than it's fair chance, I have seen all I needed to see, that topic no longer holds anything of interest for me. Now we get to the crux of the issue. The BW section of TL, is our sacred ground, it is our sanctuary, and it is there for the purposes of discussing BW. We have a Sports & Games sub forum in General forums for other games, like Hon/Dota, Eve. SC2 is no different to us, it has a bigger section and more prominence on the site to the extent where it actually inconveniences us, whatever. Just as there are people who enjoy both BW and one or more of those games frequent both forums, there are people who frequent the SC2 section and the BW section, all the more power to them. But as I see it, these sections as well as the SC2 section, exist as much for my benefit, and the benefit of those like me as for the SC2 forumers themselves. That is to say to keep BW and other discussion separate. People like me, minimise the SC2 sections, because clearly, we don't want to read about it. We stay on or side of the forums, specifically because we have no interest in talking about it. Now, if another game, say HoN, intruded into BW, I admit, I wouldn't be as upset, simply because they don't intrude on us as often, and don't already control most of TL. And here is why we get riled up at the mere mention of SC2 on the BW forums, you (as in the SC2 community) already have most of TL, you already clog up all the live streams upcoming events lists, you already have a more prominent display for fantasy league, why then must you also bring SC2 talk into the BW section, our sanctuary? SC2 is like having a roommate, they have their room, we share some of the facilities and it is all dandy, but if you keep intruding in our personal space over and over again, we are going to be hostile. So I'm going to go back to what i said before, as much as Zatic might dislike it. If you want to talk about SC2 stay on your side of the forums. I will add the qualifier, I am fine with, nay happy for you to talk about BW on the BW forums regardless of whether or not you are a member of the SC2 or any other community. | ||
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Falling
Canada11328 Posts
@doubleupgradeobbies And I find very little if any problem with what you explained. As I said before- the minimizing of SC2 is not at all what I have an issue with. It's quite understandable that if it doesn't interest you, it might as well be minimized- it's more the everytime these debates come up people feel compelled to state this fact and in the wink, wink, nudge, nudge sort of way. And I almost agree with your other part- I just dislike the 'stay on your side of the fence' sort of vibe. But I generally agree. In the Awesome/confusing bm for BW thread, you can even find me suggesting they post in the SC2 thread instead. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
Whenever big news comes around and it's spotlighted, the two communities will meet and every damn time a thread relevant to both scenes pops up, it turns into a BW vs SC2 flamefest. I see a lot of attempts to justify the arguing and hostility here, but you see it takes two to argue, only one to simply report trolls (not every damn post you dislike) and move on. This section should have a more matured community, but it really doesn't show in these moments. TL is very good about protecting the BW section and banning trolls, so theres 0 reason for honest BW fans to retaliate. Are those who attack SC2 fans in retaliation offending the idiot who trolled the BW section? No, no they're not. They're not convincing them, they're not even educating them. Instead they're offending those stuck in the middle who like both games, trashing on their preferences and potentially turning away new fans who dislike the attitude. I LOVE both games, but I cringe every time some BW only fan feels the need to trash the other game to feel superior about their preference. Sure, it happens here in the BW section, but liking both games, I fucking read the BW section too. This isn't to say the SC2 peeps don't need to shape up as well, they totally do, but I echo Zatic's statement that having it come from the BW section is pretty damn disappointing. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i believe starcraft 2 has come a long way, while starcraft:bw has become a part of the history books on where its been part of the game is to continually better yourself, and some people find so many things they've yet to do in BW sc2 is another new journey, and i remember when sc2 alpha looked so odd what i would really like to see, are subtle 'mergers' between the different feel of the two games maybe that would include a game that helps you (personally) to transition i think it only takes time to realize that sc2 is a pretty game, and that even the pros now have much to learn and work on | ||
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
I think, in both BW vs SC2, and SC2 vs BW, is that a lot of this is just vocal minority. There are definitely some BW super-elitist people who spit on SC2 and will not give a damn about anything and go out of their way to be an asshole to whoever says they watch or play SC2...but again, this - I feel- is a very vocal minority. I don't feel like all SC2 players think BW is awful and outdated, I don't think they all want it to "die" so their game can be the next big RTS in Korea. I just think the vocal minority will be the ones who promote this, and two vocal groups going at each other can look like World War 3 in the forums sometimes. The rest of us BW fans, or SC2 fans, or fans of both, sit in the middle and get hit with the crossfire. I think most of the older BW community is mature enough to know that we don't go into SC2 threads and start saying "oh OGS should disband and join BW" or something - but if we did, we'd see the SAME hostility that BW players give to SC2 players that come into the MSL thread saying "oh Jaedong lost lolol he should play SC2" ...why would you even do that?? That is what the people get really angry, and that's where the root of this hostility is - people not respecting their "lines". You know, those things you just...don't do because it's classless and it's just a dick move. However, we're forever going to have to just...deal with it. It's two really different games with the same name attached to them, there's always going to be fans and haters of one or the other, and we'll always have to put up with those SC2 guys coming into BW and talking shit, and then the BW fans just intimately hating SC2 fans before they think about what they're saying. Personally, I like SC2, but I don't enjoy following it. I have watched some of it, and it's exciting at times, but I get much more of a thrill and enjoyment out of watching pro BW. Does this mean I hate SC2 and wish it would die off? Not at all. Nor do I get super offensive and elitist when someone says something like "I'd love to see what Flash could do in SC2" On that note, I think a lot of people could sit back and think a little about their SC2 flames in certain posts. When someone says "I'd love to see Flash playing SC2" - that's not "lolol I hope BW dies lol switch to SC21!!!1!"...it's very different than when someone says "STX is putting their roster up for trade? Time for them to switch to SC2 since their team doesn't want them." People need to realise that people are going to want to watch the best players in their game. So keep that in mind next time you see an SC2 related post - while we all understand that it's a little annoying to have people posting about SC2 in a BW forum, just keep that in the back of your head. I'm guilty of having the SC2 forums closed, too, but like I said...it's not that I hate SC2 or want it to fail, I just...am not interested at all in the game. I know TL wants us to be one community, and we are, but there's just...80% SC2 and 20% BW going on so a lot of the old guys who are very fervent in their BW loving are going to be kinda bitter about that. I want certain seperate things like a BW calendar, and a way to default TLPD to BW Kor, but I think TL is against that in hopes of not dividing the community worse than it already is. | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11575 Posts
On July 29 2011 17:29 nanaoei wrote: i don't mind the tension so much as i do with some general discussions i believe starcraft 2 has come a long way, while starcraft:bw has become a part of the history books on where its been part of the game is to continually better yourself, and some people find so many things they've yet to do in BW sc2 is another new journey, and i remember when sc2 alpha looked so odd what i would really like to see, are subtle 'mergers' between the different feel of the two games maybe that would include a game that helps you (personally) to transition i think it only takes time to realize that sc2 is a pretty game, and that even the pros now have much to learn and work on i dont like this post. it's the same thing as everyone has said before. BW players don't like SC2, not because the game is new and they want to be "hipsters", but instead they don't like SC2 because they feel the gameplay isn't nearly as invigorating and exciting. It's not the fact that it's a new game, or new units/builds/strategies. SC2 just doesn't have that appeal of being able to live up to the hype that it was given to many BW players. To put it simply, BW players don't like SC2 as much as BW. I gave SC2 a shot. I laddered, I watched replays, I talked with my friends who are "famous" sc2 players and learned a lot from them. But the game just doesn't have that "feeling" to it. For instance, winning a game in BW against a competent player gives such a rewarding emotion. When I won a few games against people on SC2 in masters leagues etc... I felt no sense of gratification. I felt bored playing. To me, playing or watching SC2 is like watching Age of Empires. It's a cool and neat looking game, but it just doesn't feel very fun. When beta had been released, some of my friends who know i have played BW for a very long time competitively, were talking to me about it. They watched me play beta and talked to me about people they would watch streams of playing the game. I remember reading facebook and seeing a ton of guys i went to high school with talking about buying the game (and girls complaining that their bf's were playing the game too much). A year later, they're now talking about another new game that has hit the shelves. Call of Duty, or League of Legends. Whatever the new hit is. SC2 to me gives me this feeling that there's a huge influx of players because of this "cool new game with leet new graphics". The majority of my friends who I had played BW with who are now well known SC2 players all talk about how BW is still a much better game but there's more money in SC2 so that's why they play it. Those that still play BW I can understand have this feeling of being betrayed. We never cared about switching to WoW to sell characters for $1,000+ and make money out of the game. We just played the game because it was fun and exciting. Not for the money or for the fame. But we played the game because it was a good game. I just hope that SC2 will bring that fun and excitement to keep the "true" players that I feel are going to jump onto the next Warcraft 4 with "amazing new awesome graphics!". And for some random reason I get the feeling that a lot of these SC2 "trolls" really aren't fans of the game. If they were, they would want to understand the community that made SC2 what it is. (without us you wouldn't have SC2 as it is today!) /random incoherent rant. Also, I feel that this should be posted somewhere because for some reason these SC2 kids who talk about the new awesome graphics, cool storyline, new game bullshit that they believe are the pre-requisites for a good game. + Show Spoiler + edit: after re-reading your post I have a sudden sour taste in my mouth. No one cares about how "pretty" the game looks. Avid BW fans don't want to transition into SC2 because it feels like they're taking a step down in game play. Not because it's a new game. How hard is it for people to understand that people who still play BW today are not playing SC2 because it won't be as fun?! Being an avid BW player, I love BW. SC2 at the moment does not feel like it can replace the love and ambition that we have for BW. Maybe after the game is fully out (i.e. when the 2 expansions come out in another 4-6 years [on a side note, what the fuck is blizzard thinking?]) SC2 is not another "new journey". The BW players were way more excited and hyped about SC2 than these new kids on the block. We played Starcraft for 13 years. We were hyped about Starcraft Ghost. SC2 got into beta. We were excited. But so far, it hasn't lived up to our expectations so we continue playing the game that we love. About tournaments, the GSL is a great tournament, don't get me wrong. I like watching the games, but they're not interesting. If you watch the games especially in Code A, the strategy and depth of the games that the players show is laughable compared those in the BW scene. They adapt slowly, and stick to their build order even when their opponents has a counter-build. It's full of one build wonders. It's similar to watching IdrA play BW when he was first in Korea, where he would stick to 100% to 1 fact expo. Because he was most comfortable with it. Many of the players in Korea do the same thing. They do 1 build over and over as they're most comfortable with it. Sure over time players will get better at adapting and such. But the game mechanics will not change until at least the first expansion comes out. To put it frankly, it's boring to watch a giant ball of death against another. It's difficult to understand why one beat another. It's flashy and looks cool. That's all. I would seriosuly doubt if SC2 was identically made by another company and it's name was changed from Starcraft 2 to something like Space Wars, if it would have the same impact on the SC community. SC2 became huge because of the name 'Starcraft 2'. Very few competitive BW players moved from BW to C&C Tiberian Wars, despite it being similarly played to SC2. But if millions of dollars were pumped into C&C and televised tournaments were being held all over the place, I doubt it would be as dead as it is. SC2 is great because of the community, not because of the game. BW made this community. Telling ANY BW player that they hope the BW scene transitions over is a slap in the face. | ||
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Oozo
Finland432 Posts
On July 29 2011 17:29 nanaoei wrote: i don't mind the tension so much as i do with some general discussions i believe starcraft 2 has come a long way, while starcraft:bw has become a part of the history books on where its been part of the game is to continually better yourself, and some people find so many things they've yet to do in BW sc2 is another new journey, and i remember when sc2 alpha looked so odd what i would really like to see, are subtle 'mergers' between the different feel of the two games maybe that would include a game that helps you (personally) to transition i think it only takes time to realize that sc2 is a pretty game, and that even the pros now have much to learn and work on I agree with the tension thing, it gives more 'alive' value to this whole debate (excluding trolling, that is never good thing). What I don't agree at all, is that BW is history. No its not, even if you say so. BW has history, but its not completely history. They are going good and even if MBCgame situation escalates to point where whole channel is shut down. I believe that they will find alternative methods and ways to keep things alive. Hopefully for other games too, such as tekken and SF too. I can't really understand what you mean with 'mergers' as it seems like you are implying that we should find a way to transition to sc2 <-> BW? Transition to either games is not forced and those who want to transition, they find ways to do it. I also think it takes time to realize what kind of game sc2 is, for me its dull game. I don't hate it nor dislike it in anyways. Loved the campaign and that's about it. Our whole community is full of different kind of people with lots of different views, usually troll free and very respectful for each other. I love this community, sc2 person, BW person or both. They all are interesting persons and generally much higher level in terms of actions than most what can be countered anywhere in internet. Only that I feel that topics like "MBCgame to shut down?" are really sensitive subjects. And when someone starts talking about BW dying and how everyone should change to sc2, its generally ignorant way of discussing matters. But this is not whole sc2 community, its only few people who's posts can be seen as not breaking any rules, but still kind of hidden trolls or meaningfully aggravating of others. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On July 29 2011 17:08 xBillehx wrote: To be fair threads kind of lose their BW/SC2 section protection when it gets spotlighted as Community News. That shit's up for everyone to read and probably the biggest reason the MBC thread was victim to trolling. Although, I do believe the MBC thread is totally relevant to both BW & SC2 and the hostility in there towards anything with SC2 in it got out of hand. (thus, this thread) Literally, EVERY post that had "SC2" in it was being reported for a good while regardless of the context even if it was a great post. Zatic made a point to tell people to stop reporting posts just because they didn't like what it said and that itself kind of shows the over-hostility in the BW forums. I think what we need is clear rules and guidelines on what exactly happens to threads that appear in multiple places. I think the reason so many posts got reported, was exactly because these are unclear. Firstly I must say, I wouldn't even have known the news was in community news if not for that exact argument going on in the thread. I don't look at the community news section because it is SC2 related like 90% of the time, and I'd minimise it too if the option existed. However, after that TL needs to decide, and make it clear when threads appear in multiple forums, exactly which forum rules should they be subject to? Because I think this makes a big difference. If TL decides that if it is in community rules then the BW forums rules should no longer apply, then so be it. Perhaps the warning at the top should instead inform the BW community to be tolerant of posts about SC2 as it is no longer just a BW issue. Because warnings against SC2 trolls are unnecessary, those posts don't belong anywhere in TL, and don't require a warning. If TL decides that BW forum rules should still apply, then I think reporting (for the record I only reported 1 post) anything talking about SC2 is fair game, because that is not the place for such discussion. I think what we can take away from this is that the official position of TL is that once it's in community, then it's not a BW only thing. As such, however, TL should make it clear that this is now it's official position, and make it clear what the rules are. I think perhaps most of this 'hostility' (sorry Kiante) stems from the lack of clarity about boundaries. It is SC2 posters legitimately having something to say about something that effects them and BW posters legitimately protecting a thread that is still marked as BW Forums. These clear boundaries may well split the community, but I believe they are necessary because this will keep happening even without the added complication of trolls until such boundaries are made clear. On July 29 2011 17:08 xBillehx wrote: This section should have a more matured community, but it really doesn't show in these moments. TL is very good about protecting the BW section and banning trolls, so theres 0 reason for honest BW fans to retaliate. Are those who attack SC2 fans in retaliation offending the idiot who trolled the BW section? No, no they're not. They're not convincing them, they're not even educating them. I agree, even as someone who cares nothing for SC2, I am baffled why someone of like mind would want to waste their time talking about SC2, even if it's just trolling, especially on the part of the forum that doesn't exist for discussion on that topic. It is a waste of their time, noone benefits and they are ruining their own part of the forums for no reason. On July 29 2011 17:08 xBillehx wrote: This isn't to say the SC2 peeps don't need to shape up as well, they totally do, but I echo Zatic's statement that having it come from the BW section is pretty damn disappointing. There are trolls on both sides, that's disappointing but nothing new. But I can't agree with Zatic's statement. TL needs makes it clear which threads doesn't belong to us, I'm sure we will still heed those decisions because we ARE still a part of TL. But I can certainly see where the people who were reporting every post regarding SC2 were coming from. There is confusion regarding exactly where the thread should be, and they have every right to keep SC2 out of the BW forums. | ||
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Valenti
United States16 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On July 29 2011 18:09 TheButtonmen wrote: The continual cycle of threads like this really don't help improve our (SC2) view of the the BW community as we don't really venture into the BW section that much so this is our main source of exposure to BW side of the site. Speaking as someone who prefers BW, those threads are stupid and pointless. I don't understand why you'd make a thread that clearly won't do anything but antagonize people. Well, unless you're trolling. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On July 29 2011 10:19 Blasterion wrote: There you have it. Tell me if you agree that "SC2 takes no skill" aren't you trolling the SC2 Community? Aren't you provoking flame wars? Aren't you trying to create hostility between the communities? SC2 is a easier game mechanically, so you shift your mechanic apm to something else, like multitasking. You're basically telling me that Automatic Cars are for Noobs, and that I should go drive a stick shift He may have stated it wrong as I don't believe BW or SC2 have a skill ceiling that will ever be hit by mere mortals but the gist of what he is saying is true. BW is mechanically easier. A lot of things that took up a lot of APM and time in BW are now extremely simple in SC2. And while it would be wonderful to say that all that APM is being used by SC2 pros to better manage their units through micro or completely perfect their macro and timing, that's simply not the case. On July 29 2011 10:24 Blasterion wrote: Yes BW is more mechanically challenging. But the skill ceiling of SC2 has yet been touched, rushing to conclusion is a bit too much don't you think so? ' APM has been freed from mechanics, there for you can use them for more things, like multi pronged attacks, micro, etc. Like I said before, there's now more available APM for refining things like micro and multipronged attacks but here's the problem, the micro is not exceptionally amazing. For the most part there is just as much good micro and multi pronged attacks going on in BW and that's with the extra effort needed to macro. On July 29 2011 11:36 Blasterion wrote: @ wassbix behold, your phantom elitist What I read Your game is watered down, it's easier, anybody can be good, Brood war is harder there for you all suck. Yes that is a fairly elitist sounding post and yet, at its very core, is not without merit. Then again, it's hard to bring up the streamlining and "Watering down" of a game without sounding elitist. While I agree with you on this one, there is nothing actually wrong or elitist in pointing out the lesser amount of skill currently present in the SC2 scene. On July 29 2011 11:55 Blasterion wrote: I think this is another reason why BW fans are disliked Seems some BW Fans just dislike SC2 because it's SC2 and not BW. No you're completely wrong on this one. BW fans that dislike SC2 don't dislike it because it's not BW. They dislike it because it failed to live up to their expectations as a better game (in terms of play, not just things like graphics) and worthy successor to the greatest RTS of all time. I happen to enjoy playing SC2 and following the SC2 (and BW) scene but I can definitely see how someone raised on BW and watching guys like Bisu or Jaedong play that SC2 and it's current pro scene is failing to live up to their expectations. Maybe the expectations are too high but in the end...it is what it is. If you dislike someone because their expectations for a game are too high, they have every right to dislike you for your own expectations not being high enough no? On July 29 2011 14:30 wassbix wrote: If someone can't handle BW because of balance there would like .... zero RTS game you'd able to handle. Actually, I don't get where this whole "BW was always amazingly balanced" thing comes from. There were MUs that were definitely imbalanced for long stretches of time. Hell, my favorite player got his nickname from turning one such broken MU on its head. That's one of the things I like about BW...people actually take time to innovate and adapt and evolve rather than QQ until Bnet patches something only to realize a couple months later that it broke something else and repeats the cycle again. I'd say it's a pretty strong argument against the whole SC2 players are more innovative/forward thinking school of thought that some people like to throw out there as why SC2 is "superior" | ||
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
There are those who only like SC2. There are those who like both SC2 and BW. There are those who only like BW. Those of us who only like BW, by logical extension, prefer BW to SC2 for various reasons. We don't enjoy being told that our opinions and our reasons are stupid. People should know better than to incite hostility. Try going to a basketball game and telling them how basketball's antiquated, and how much better slamball is. SC2 becoming a large part of TL is an inconvenience for us, definitely, but we cope with that. We understand why SC2 an important and integral part of TL now, and that's fine with us. But really, those of us who only enjoy BW and not SC2 want to be left alone by the SC2 crowd. We stay out of the SC2 forums, and we'd appreciate that only those who enjoy BW come to the BW one. I don't understand why this would be a problem. If TL put up a Halo section, we'd also be fine with that, but we wouldn't frequent that either. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1518 Posts
Though everybody would know that this will happen. It's like Bruce Lee, some of his fans think he's still alive  | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
I play SC2, but I watch BW hell of a lot more then SC2. I think with all of us BW fans, the difference in style, and the excitement is more geared towards BW. SC2 games ends too fast, there is usually no way to punish a player for being too aggressive in SC2. BW on the other hand, has it all, while the usual cheese can work from time to time, it's very rare to see it. Everything is different, and it has taken a long time to get where it is at today. I personally have no problem with SC2, (I play it. Diamond/Platinum rank.) the fans on the other hand I do. I really HATE how a lot of the SC2 fans on TL talks very big and has nothing to show for it. I won't go into the current "S" rank SC2 players in comparison to the TRUE S Rank BW players. While I realized as well SC2 has been out for only a year or so, it's unwise to compare to games with such a gap in time. Most of the SC2 fans on TL ignore this fact and compare the two anyway, bringing up random BS notes that annoy the crap out of me. Win/Loss rate for example I saw very recently in SC2 side. Some dude there apparently doesn't believe in the times and tries to say MC/NesTea(So on and So forth) has a "better" win rate in comparison to S class players in BW (i'm generalizing) Flash, JD, Bisu and Stork. Not to damn mention SC2 players play International Players as well, BW players most exclusively play other Korean players. (There is a HUGE difference as most would understand the reasoning behind that.) I cannot stand stupidity, if anyone tries to compare it, and not bring up how long they have been playing in there respective games. I honestly will call you an idiot and end the conversation right there. Sadly their are quiet a few of these people in SC2 and it's unavoidable. With BW, the main community has always been Koreans, with a few International people in between. With SC2, it has brought up International Audience into it. (Look at MLG for one. I can guarantee it's audience is bigger then GSL) Anyone who played SC2 can and WILL realize SC2 has been basically simplified for everyone. Until SC2 gains some age, when the two expansions are released, BW people and SC2 people will never get along. I just don't see it happening. Both sides are defiant of there respective games and are basically unwilling to budge. I have always been a fan of Classic games, BW for me is and always will be the one RTS that cannot be compared. I know several of my friends quiet frown upon SC2 pros and there antics, I'm not as critical unless it is extremely stupid. (MC entering with The Rock's intro was one I cannot stand for.) My personal opinion (I hope people understands) is basically BW has proven, by there players and games that it is something that will always be there. SC2 basically being simplified will never be in the same light to Hardcore BW people. Maybe more TRUE BW A-teamers will switch to SC2 eventually (fOrGG for example), and bring SC2's game into a better light. Who knows what will happen, but like I have said above already. SC2 is still young, the game is young, the fans are young and most are immature about it. Stop comparing the two. It just doesn't work, not yet at least. Let SC2 gain some age, some experience, then in time, we can compare and join together. Until then. Stop. Comparing BW and SC2 is like comparing Night and Day. It doesn't work. Stop please, it doesn't help that pointless arguing, BS and arrogance always gets brought up at the same time. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On July 29 2011 18:06 Jienny wrote: I agree with the tension thing, it gives more 'alive' value to this whole debate (excluding trolling, that is never good thing). What I don't agree at all, is that BW is history. No its not, even if you say so. BW has history, but its not completely history. They are going good and even if MBCgame situation escalates to point where whole channel is shut down. I believe that they will find alternative methods and ways to keep things alive. Hopefully for other games too, such as tekken and SF too. I can't really understand what you mean with 'mergers' as it seems like you are implying that we should find a way to transition to sc2 <-> BW? Transition to either games is not forced and those who want to transition, they find ways to do it. I also think it takes time to realize what kind of game sc2 is, for me its dull game. I don't hate it nor dislike it in anyways. Loved the campaign and that's about it. Our whole community is full of different kind of people with lots of different views, usually troll free and very respectful for each other. I love this community, sc2 person, BW person or both. They all are interesting persons and generally much higher level in terms of actions than most what can be countered anywhere in internet. Only that I feel that topics like "MBCgame to shut down?" are really sensitive subjects. And when someone starts talking about BW dying and how everyone should change to sc2, its generally ignorant way of discussing matters. But this is not whole sc2 community, its only few people who's posts can be seen as not breaking any rules, but still kind of hidden trolls or meaningfully aggravating of others. i think it'd be much better if i edited my post with better/more wording, but it is what it is since i normally have a hard time expressing what i mean, neither do i think what i say is right, or what i have said is completely empathetic to BW players it might seem like i am new, but i've been here for a long time---sometimes on separate accounts--and have almost witnessed as many BW events as i could hope for i don't mean that the game 'is history', but it has made history (& will continue to), and is obviously a catalyst for what sc2 is today starcraft 2 is not necessarily anything like a path you need to take (again, i say obvious or unnecessary things) except there are pros and figures from the past who have taken it up. personally, i feel a similarity between the two games and their gameplay. it is simply a feeling. i'm not going to even pretend i have an idea of what the likes of boxer, nada, thewind had in mind when they committed to this game by entering the pro-scene-----but i know some players on sc2 feel inclined to play the game for various reasons, and for them, i'd like to see/know what they've done (so-called 'mergers') to prepare themselves in playing a different game at the highest level they can while neither of these two posts i have are good, informing, or even very understandable it's just that it think sc2 has a bright future (not to say broodwars does not) of entertaining millions, DESPITE bad media--- despite problems with the game i'm happy and willing to learn and play the game myself to see what my nerd crushes---who were legends of BW and WC3--are playing and mastering for themselves | ||
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kwkwookw
218 Posts
knowing this, why would anyone watch sc2. the only reason why sc2 is so popular in teamliquid is because westerners are so deluded by this whole WESTERN ESPORTS phenomenon. HAHAHA yes, because esports can be created by a group of people where the best player is like what....naniwa? LOL GTFO bitches. bring me someone even remotely close to the talent of sea before i watching fkn sc2 User was banned for this post. | ||
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