• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:47
CET 08:47
KST 16:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation10Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t [TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time?
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle Brood War web app to calculate unit interactions [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion Terran 1:35 12 Gas Optimization
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro?
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1770 users

Why SC2 can't be an e-sports

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 Next All
thehitman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 11:00:09
July 29 2011 08:41 GMT
#1
NOTE: Please read the full post before posting, I'm not trying to piss on SC2 and say there isn't e-sports happening. The title is there to just get people more interested in the thread and make my point about smart casting

I hear people on all sides on the isle when discussing SC2 balance go: 'ooh infestors are imbalanced, they buffed them and zerg are now stronger and the other side go - well use ghosts to beat them and before it was a discussion about High Templars and Ghosts both protoss players and terran players arguing which is more OP or more easy to use.

I'd have to say they are all right and wrong at the same time. The fact that everyone looks at the game from their own race perspective is blinding everyone quite a bit to the obvious imbalance that is smart casting. Yes ladies and gentlemen I'm going to argue the fact that Infestors, Ghosts, Sentries and all other caster units are imbalanced is because of smart casting.

Lets go back to Starcraft: Brood War to help us with this analysis. As you remember storm did 110 damage over 3 seconds in BW, a devastating spell and one that at newbie levels was always OP. Until you actually got a lot better at BW and probably watches some PRO games you would be under the impression that storm was imbalanced because its so strong, unless you were trying to use it yourself of course. This is what I mean by race specific balance whines and not looking at the problem at its roots.
If you were playing Zerg in BW storm was OP, if you were playing Terran storm was OP as well, if you were playing Protoss and Zerg Terran siege tanks were OP and if you played Protoss, zerg dark swarm was OP. This was all true until you tried the different races yourself and find out its not so OP as you thought.

Everyone is again right and wrong at the same time, because even though realistically the spells and some units were OP the fact that no one can use them to their full extent made them balanced.

Remember the game where JangBi had the whole screen covered with storms destroying all of Nada's tanks, well that was skill and that was excitement, it was something special that not only can non pro not do it, but even pro players weren't able to do it. Even Bisu's storms were quite on that mark.


Again this leads us back to Starcraft 2 and its smart casting. I will bet everyone that if smart casting was not available infestors would actually become balanced and there would even be an outcry to buff them as they will look too weak.

I don't want this to trigger SC2 automation discussion on things like MBS, unlimited unit selection, auto-casting because lets be reasonable Blizzard will never remove those and there would be an outcry from casual players about it. But its quite reasonable to demand from Blizzard to at least remove smart casting because it won't really make casual players worse, since casual players use spellcasters only sporadically anyways, but what this will do is increase the skill ceiling at the top in the professional world.

This won't make SC2 unplayable for casual players, it certainly won't make SC2 skill-wise on par with Brood War, but I think cutting smart casting will make the game more enjoyable for spectators and more challenging for pros, but not only that it will actually balance out the various spell casters and spells right now by making them potent as they currently are, but more challenging to execute.

I feel that if SC2 is to really succeed as an E-sports it needs to be more challenging and the one way to do that that wont hurt the play of the average gamer and sales of SC2 or promotion of SC2 to new audiences, but actually help it is by removing smart casting which will make watching SC2 even more enjoyable and make all of us all be excited once again, since Brood War about things that pros can do and we can't. As it is right now I can place the perfect storms and perfect fungal growths as good as any pro player can and a lot of times even better.

Please be sure to talk about smart casting only and not balance or other automation talk. Thank you.

EDIT: Bonus content: Imagine if Brood War had smart casting. Now no amount or rationalizing or spinning it around will make SC2 casting not easy and the sooner we realize this and get Blizzard to fix the problem the better. And I've already made the point that removing smart casting won't hurt the game availability and easiness for new and casual gamers. The effect will mostly be at the top levels and would actually require skill to cast spells.
Exigaet
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada355 Posts
July 29 2011 08:43 GMT
#2
It's already an eSport.
warcralft
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore609 Posts
July 29 2011 08:43 GMT
#3
YOU ARE RUINING ESPORTS
Zhyq
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom117 Posts
July 29 2011 08:45 GMT
#4
Hm had been a while since we had one of these :D


Recycling of things already said in other threads. Would hardly call it constructive.
weaknurse
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia320 Posts
July 29 2011 08:45 GMT
#5
It already is, sorry kid.
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
July 29 2011 08:45 GMT
#6
Well hell, if sc2 isn't an esport right now, I don't really know what is.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12023 Posts
July 29 2011 08:46 GMT
#7
Considering pros at the highest level (GSL Winners) are still making wrong decisions and mistakes, I'd say the game must be challenging as they still are not perfect at it yet.

SC2 is already an eSport.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
July 29 2011 08:46 GMT
#8
I would be okay with no smart casting if spells were made more OP. I don't know how ff would work though since the whole point of them is the ability to lay them down really quickly.


It just seems like there's no way to make a BIG move. Like, you can be effective and efficient, but you can't really turn the entire game upside down through a burst of genius.
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Rygar
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden28 Posts
July 29 2011 08:46 GMT
#9
The game is young. The pros will and are able to do more stuff than "ordinary" gamers all the time and as times go by, more and more "hard" key elements to success will be figured out. If you make something easier, it frees up space/apm for other stuff instead. The game will only get more challenging on the highest levels as time progresses. Wait and see.
vanhio
Profile Joined November 2010
Niue1017 Posts
July 29 2011 08:46 GMT
#10
Here we go again...
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
July 29 2011 08:46 GMT
#11
uh mlg anaheim is on today. and sc2 is at the main stage. and thousands will be watching. and boxer is there. boxer. boxer=esports.
Coeus1
Profile Joined May 2010
Finland160 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 08:47:29
July 29 2011 08:47 GMT
#12
I "like" his idea of putting a Brood War youtube video in his post just tu rub it in. Hihi.
xxx
Bagonad
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark173 Posts
July 29 2011 08:47 GMT
#13
SMART CASTING IS RUINING E-SPORTS

(Why do these threads keep popping up?)
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6215 Posts
July 29 2011 08:48 GMT
#14
Well... Good luck forcefielding without smart casting? I don't know what else to say?
snaerdi
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland70 Posts
July 29 2011 08:49 GMT
#15
Oh yeah it's SO not an eSport yet. I mean there's hardly any tournaments!
This is why we can't have nice things.. SC 2 || Skyrim || Diablo III || ME 3
baby elephant
Profile Joined April 2011
273 Posts
July 29 2011 08:49 GMT
#16
cool story bro

User was warned for this post
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
July 29 2011 08:50 GMT
#17
Ravens have smart casting and they're not imba in the slightest. Forcefield would be impossible to use even at the pro level and all the aoe spells will have to be buffed.

Infestors are not really a problem. Give me a GSL game where someone massed Infestors and won.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
July 29 2011 08:50 GMT
#18
Can we not have another one of these threads?
WriterXiao8~~
Rabbitmaster
Profile Joined August 2010
1357 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-29 08:50:38
July 29 2011 08:50 GMT
#19
edit:wrong thread
God is dead.
Crushgroove
Profile Joined July 2010
United States793 Posts
July 29 2011 08:50 GMT
#20
Need to fix the title imo... sort of lose the argument before you begin it. By definition, it is an e-sport.
[In Korea on Vaca] "Why would I go to the park and climb a mountain? There are video games on f*cking TV!" - Kazuke
1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 13m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 8467
Leta 257
EffOrt 249
Bale 74
Killer 44
Dewaltoss 37
ToSsGirL 26
ivOry 8
NaDa 6
Dota 2
XaKoH 732
League of Legends
JimRising 535
Counter-Strike
fl0m403
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0186
Mew2King68
Other Games
summit1g21314
crisheroes278
FrodaN228
NeuroSwarm67
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick595
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH136
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21487
League of Legends
• Lourlo1560
• Stunt563
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
2h 13m
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
4h 13m
GuMiho vs MaNa
herO vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs TBD
WardiTV Korean Royale
4h 13m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 2h
RSL Revival
1d 2h
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
1d 4h
Cure vs Reynor
IPSL
1d 9h
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
1d 12h
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
BSL 21
2 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
2 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
BSL: GosuLeague
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
BSL: GosuLeague
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
RSL Revival: Season 3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.