the articles main point is beyond stupid. halo is easy to pick up and play but was still the biggest esport for 10 years. broodwar is EASY to pick up and play. the op is picking some arbitrary line and saying this is hard enough this isnt. pro players are miles ahead of even high masters players and even within the pro scene theres a huge variation. no matter what the people bitching about sc2 say, skill is by far the number 1 factor in winning a game and having a relativly low entry level for skill is irrelevant.

On July 29 2011 19:49 karpo wrote:

Show nested quote +

I really don't know. It's the same old regurgitation of arguments seen over and over again yet as long as it's shitting on SC2 it seems ok. Shitting on BW on the other hand...

i agree, but thats just the way it is 'round these parts

Seditary

Australia7033 Posts

July 29 2011 11:03 GMT

#222

Okay, old tired argument, not so hidden balance whine included inside it, a sensationalist headline and useless grandstanding that refutes his own point?

I don't think you've convinced me.

Oh and as an aside, making something more difficult to do does not reduce the effectiveness of it when done.

To celebrate this thread, I'm going to watch nanashin's stream and forget I ever spent time here.

XsebT

Denmark2980 Posts

July 29 2011 11:03 GMT

#223

On July 29 2011 19:51 SoSexy wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but whats the difference between a smartcast and a normal cast?

Smart casting:
1: allows you to cast even while having non-cast units or other cast units selected
2: it always cast with the caster closest to the target and only uses one spell at a time

No smart casting:
1: you have to individually select one type of caster to be able to caster its spells
2: if you have more that two (say high templars) selected with more than 75 energy, both high templars will cast their storm.
(You can do some nifty magic boxing for multiple caster selection to be effective, but that's quite difficult)

Stropheum

United States1124 Posts

July 29 2011 11:04 GMT

#224

Edit: Actually I reread the OP and realized that it's far from well written, your point is obscured by the fact that you contradict it multiple times, and you're making flawed conclusions based on false premises and guesses. Also it's already an e-sport and an extremely successful one so far.

ProxyZooZ

United States53 Posts

July 29 2011 11:05 GMT

#225

On July 29 2011 20:01 lu_cid wrote:

Show nested quote +

Smart casting refers to the ability to hold shift and spam cast a spell all over your opponent's army, whereas without it you typically individually select casters. In other words without smart casting it takes gosu micro just to use spell casters to their full potential.

which is archaic and totally true (god bless bw and fk it to hell)

Baz

United Kingdom289 Posts

July 29 2011 11:07 GMT

#226

I think you have some valid points, but the point I have the most gripe with is when you say that "[One thing to help SC2] is by removing smart casting which will make watching SC2 even more enjoyable and make all of us all be excited once again". First of all, I think the vast majority of us are still more than a little bit excited about SC2, so just because you might not be getting excited about it all don't presume that everyone else isn't. Secondly, in no way would removing smart-casting help me to enjoy watching SC2 any more. I like watching a ton of storms rain down on a terran bio-ball... I like watching a ton of clutch emp's rain down on some infestors right before a huge TvZ engagement... I fail to see how making this harder to do for me when I play will make it any more enjoyable to watch when a Pro does it. I see plenty of impressive stuff including amazing micro and amazing split second decisions that get me excited when pro's do it because it really is "pro", the game mechanics help the pro's concentrate on other impressive pieces of play such as multi-pronged attacks with all of them being microed etc. The game mechanics, in my opinion, make the game better to watch and more fun to play, I really dislike the argument that because a game has complex mechanics to do basic things, it is more fun to watch because it takes so much skill.

turdburgler

England6749 Posts

July 29 2011 11:07 GMT

#227

you learn to walk before you can even talk and yet running is the number 1 sport at the olympics

difficulty of entry is irrelevant

its the skill ceiling that matters. all this talk about smart casting and stuff is a waste of time

Hammer442

Australia749 Posts

July 29 2011 11:10 GMT

#228

On July 29 2011 19:58 legaton wrote:
SC2 can't be an e-sports because there's no really talented "e-athletes". What surprises me the most from the SC2 scene (and i follow it alot) is the lack of talent of the player pool. We are still seeing the same washed-up ex-proamateurs from Broodwar. Most of today's pros were B+/A+ amateurs from the ICCup server. That means that they were consistently beaten by 12 years old koreans from the Brain server. Another bunch of the players came from Warcraft 3, even if they were slightly better, they still were a level below Korea (except for Grubby or ToD). What surprises and worries me the most, is how little new talent SC2 has: Vibe? Destiny? A handful other players? People keeps saying SC2 already is an e-sports when it hasn't been able to nurture new pros. You just have the old BW bunch trying to live the life they couldn't had with BW (see Idra).

And what about Korea? They certainly have lots and lots of talent there. But BW still is the most popular and prestigious game in South-Korea. SC2 has a smaller pool. And the pool of player is not growing, it's becoming smaller as there's little support for SC2 in Korea. Haven't you realized that GomTV runs thanks to foreigner money? Sponsors for BW are all Koreans. Sponsors for SC2 are foreign companies with small subsidaries in South Korea. Viewers are also foreign. They have made wonders for the foreign viewers, and i thank them for that. But it also means they see the foreign scene as the only market they can develop. Most coaches and koreans players alredy said it: there's not enough tournaments to support the korean scene. That means that we are going to see less new talent from Korea.

Koreans have admitted themselves that the foreigners can be just as good and that it is merely the strict training regimes that has set Koreans apart for so long. So many people just seem to think if SC2 isn't widely accepted in Korea it will never have major success. With team houses starting up in the US and EU anything is possible, alot of money is being poured in to the foreigner scene and it is entirely possible for it to eventually overtake the Korean scene.

You make it sound like nothing is possible in SC without Koreans which is not the case, just the methods that they use are needed, which can be taken from any dedicated athlete from any sport.

AcrosstheSky

United States237 Posts

July 29 2011 11:12 GMT

#229

It doesn't have the skill ceiling of mechanical brood war but it doesn't mean it can't be an E-Sport, it actually is already. Also remember before making topics like this which you know will make people rage out remember that Starcraft is only a year old. The timing and game is still being figured out, when it becomes more refined and less volatile the skill ceiling will increase as well. Brood War has had over 10 years of experience so gimmick plays like all ins exct. where much less effective since tells and exact reactions had been discovered.

TheAmazombie

United States3714 Posts

July 29 2011 11:12 GMT

#230

It just astounds me that some people think that just because one certain part of the game might be "easier" to do, that it means that the game is "easier" or that the skill cap is lower. To me it just means that is either:
1. One less thing to focus on mechanically so that you can raise the bar in other categories such as Build-order, strats, multi-tactical plays.
2. If it is easier to do because of smart casting, then the opposite side of the coin becomes harder, defending against it.
Also, your argument that SC2 as a sport will fail because of this is just silly and does not hold water.

Coolwhip

927 Posts

July 29 2011 11:13 GMT

#231

Balance issues wont affect it in the slightest. Is it fun to watch for a large audience? Then something can become an esport. Wether or not esports will grow in the coming years is the only question that matters.

Sea_Food

Finland1612 Posts

July 29 2011 11:14 GMT

#232

The day I see someone play a perfect game of starcraft 2, I will agree that the game should be made harder. Untill that I see no reason to remove smart casting.

Geo.Rion

7377 Posts

July 29 2011 11:15 GMT

#233

rename the thread, to something like why will BW will be always better or idk, SC2 definetly an e sport already

MCDayC

United Kingdom14464 Posts

July 29 2011 11:16 GMT

#234

hahahahaha... no.
It can't be an e-sport because of a simplified casting system? Hate to break the big news to you buddy, but it already is an e-sport. In fact, much simpler and faaaar less challenging games already are e-sports. Heck, Trackmania is an e-sport. COD is an e-sport.
This OP is stupid.

ProxyZooZ

United States53 Posts

July 29 2011 11:16 GMT

#235

On July 29 2011 20:07 turdburgler wrote:
you learn to walk before you can even talk and yet running is the number 1 sport at the olympics

difficulty of entry is irrelevant

its the skill ceiling that matters. all this talk about smart casting and stuff is a waste of time

its like saying we should have lisps to make the games better .. guess fking what ... i have a lisp and i talk fine ... and any decent pro would cast just fine w/ or w/out smart cast (basically you are talking about regular players and how they will play) True That turdburgler

-Strider-

Mexico1605 Posts

July 29 2011 11:16 GMT

#236

Day 9 has a smart cast

Willes

Germany199 Posts

July 29 2011 11:16 GMT

#237

On July 29 2011 20:12 TheAmazombie wrote:
It just astounds me that some people think that just because one certain part of the game might be "easier" to do, that it means that the game is "easier" or that the skill cap is lower. To me it just means that is either:
1. One less thing to focus on mechanically so that you can raise the bar in other categories such as Build-order, strats, multi-tactical plays.
2. If it is easier to do because of smart casting, then the opposite side of the coin becomes harder, defending against it.
Also, your argument that SC2 as a sport will fail because of this is just silly and does not hold water.

This.
The topicposter should look for the definition of sport and "e-sport" first before posting.

exog

Norway279 Posts

July 29 2011 11:18 GMT

#238

Idiot article with an idiot topic. You're wrong and what you wrote didn't make sense. Stupid BW=GOD-complex that keeps plaguing the discussions. While you're at it, revert graphics too derp derp

User was warned for this post

zarepath

United States1626 Posts

July 29 2011 11:21 GMT

#239

Wait a minute. Is this 2009?

rfoster

United States1005 Posts

July 29 2011 11:23 GMT

#240

How exactly does smart casting affect storm? You do the same function as BW emp and fungal wouldnt be affected by smart casting either. Tanks are the only thing you talked about that would be affected. Someone tell me if im being incredibly stupid.