EPTStarcraft 2 has all the open-endedness of Brood War, so that part is safe.
Why SC2 can't be an e-sports - Page 10
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Anfi
Russian Federation63 Posts
Starcraft 2 has all the open-endedness of Brood War, so that part is safe. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On July 29 2011 19:30 Miefer wrote: I think smartcasting is making sc2 more an esport title than without. I mean without smartcasting, most of the casuals and lower skill players would stop playing the game and lose interest in the game. without the big audience sc2 would be only a niche computer game. because the game is more open for most of the people it makes success as esport than bw in the foreign scene. good example would be soccer. I mean I can play soccer but I will never be as good as Messi or other pros. Indeed, people don't want to agree, everything has to be as hard as possible, but NO way we would be close to the amount of tourneys/community size we have today. | ||
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hmmm...
632 Posts
i beg to differ. if you're defining esports by the number of tournaments in the west, the number of online viewers on gomtv, justintv, livestream, etc., the number of hardcore gamer/nerd audience, then that simply means the game is very popular in my book. it may reach a certain popularity to become part of mainstream culture among GAMERS/NERDS but until it becomes part of mainstream culture among the general public like BW in korea, SC2 is not an Esport. but i'll leave it up to you however you wish to define esport to satisfy your ego. | ||
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noobcakes
United States526 Posts
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densha
United States797 Posts
1. You're making a big assumption that SC2 is "easy" and needs to be "more challenging" for pros. It's up to you, by making the claim, to prove it with evidence. I haven't heard of any pro thinking the game is too easy or that they've hit the skill ceiling or that they have nothing left to improve on. It's frankly rather arrogant and ignorant for you to say what the pro players are doing is too easy. 2. The skill variance even among pros is enormous. The difference between NesTea and the 2nd best player in the world (whoever that may be) is noticeably large. The skill gap of Koreans compared to foreigners in general is exceptionally wide. If this was easy, if the skill ceiling was too low, if there weren't enough factors involved, then one would not expect such a huge amount of variance in skill levels. 3. The pros still make a lot of mistakes that even a Diamond like me can identify. I point simply to Zerg players who accidentally rally Overlords into the enemy's army (even though rallying is something that's supposed to make the game super easy, right?). We see this mistake even in GLS matches. How about pros that have trouble splitting up their units and the fact that certain players are far better and faster than other at it? This applies to splitting marines, workers, etc. What about all the little micro moves that we *don't* see. Yes, bigger control groups can make you lazy in certain respects, but eventually a player will come along and revolutionize that kind of micro and everyone will be force to adapt. You can't assume what happens now will be how it always works. Truly intricate and complicated unit micro will happen with time. Basically, smart casting is a complete non-issue at this point and it doesn't make any sense to pinpoint that one feature and conclude SC2 isn't an eSport or takes no skill or whatever. It's proven as an eSport already and BW is dead except in Korea, where the death naturally will be slower. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On July 29 2011 19:34 Beef Noodles wrote: I played BW and now I play SC2, and I have to say I completely agree with the OP. If something doesn't change to make SC2 more "awe inspiring," then I think people will lose interest. I haven't played BW in a year and a half, but I'm flying to Shanghai to watch the Proleague Finals. I would never do that for SC2. I was at the DH invitational and i've watched most finals in the last 6 months. People seem to find alot of things to be in awe about in SC2 as there's lots of cheers and people going wild when a player does something awesome. Feels like you prefer BW and your subjective opinion doesn't really reflect what many people feel. I've played BW before and i wouldn't even travel a couple of hours to watch JD and Flash play, does that mean BW is dying? No, it means i'm not really that into BW. Subjective opinions aren't really that interesting to anyone beside the one having them. | ||
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taldarimAltar
973 Posts
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ProxyZooZ
United States53 Posts
On July 29 2011 19:29 vol_ wrote: The thread title is stupid. I do agree with some of your points about smartcasting thou, having 12 infestors on 1 hotkey and spamming F is not skillful. Since when was wasting the infestor energy of 12 infestors cost effective vs using well targeted energy of 4 infestors indicate anything ... just because too many infestors were made and the army comp was fked to begin with does not indicate anything about skill level ...unless infestors are op? | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
if sc2 does not approach korean levels of popularity (in non-korean countries) thats because that is impossible. you have to know that SCBW exploding in popularity was a result of many factors in S Korean demographics and culture and economy and that it they are awesome games but it didnt reach national sport status because the game didnt have smartcasting or MBS or anything like that units are generally faster and pathing is obviously much better in starcraft 2 without some improvements - things like smart casting - casters would be too micro intensive for the DPS they put out. the game is a year old how mature was the SC scene a year after release? come on it seems like almost all these posts about how SC2 needs to be more like bw are more wannabe elitist lecturing than anything else good players already split their units up and hotkey separate grps to cut down on damage from AOE or single-target spells and then cycle through those groups in a battle, this in my opinion is really only slightly less effective APM than was needed in BW i dont think the arguments coming from the OP are very well thought out, BW is a great and amazing game it had years to mature give SC2 time as well, especially the mapmaking community i think there is a huge amount of potential for creating maps that encourage good games with good battles | ||
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kochujang
Germany1226 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On July 29 2011 19:35 hmmm... wrote: regarding all the arguments saying "LOL well SC2 IS an Esport" i beg to differ. if you're defining esports by the number of tournaments in the west, the number of online viewers on gomtv, justintv, livestream, etc., the number of hardcore gamer/nerd audience, then that simply means the game is very popular in my book. it may reach a certain popularity to become part of mainstream culture among GAMERS/NERDS but until it becomes part of mainstream culture among the general public like BW in korea, SC2 is not an Esport. but i'll leave it up to you however you wish to define esport to satisfy your ego. You kow, by that logic BW is the only esport in the whole world. a thing about games in the western is that they are simply not taken serious to become mainstream. was quake ever mainstream? or UT? or counterstrike? or warcraft 3? So you say neither of those wasn't a esport either then. | ||
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enecateReAP
United Kingdom378 Posts
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
On July 29 2011 19:34 Beef Noodles wrote: I played BW and now I play SC2, and I have to say I completely agree with the OP. If something doesn't change to make SC2 more "awe inspiring," then I think people will lose interest. I haven't played BW in a year and a half, but I'm flying to Shanghai to watch the Proleague Finals. I would never do that for SC2. "Why are you wasting a whole bunch of money to fly to anther country to watch some kids play video games?" I know this is off topic, but it is the attitude that is shown towards video games, which is why it would be incredibly hard for a game to become mainstream in a country. | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Yes? No need to fix it. No? you're in a small minority. | ||
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fellcrow
United States288 Posts
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Dattish
Sweden6297 Posts
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ChickaChuckWally
Australia85 Posts
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Anfi
Russian Federation63 Posts
"Why are you wasting a whole bunch of money to fly to anther country to watch some kids play video games?" I know this is off topic, but it is the attitude that is shown towards video games, which is why it would be incredibly hard for a game to become mainstream in a country. Actually i second that, but that applies not just to Starcraft 2. Incidentally, what allowed Brood War to overcome this - if only within Korea? | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
On July 29 2011 18:19 NotSupporting wrote: Well he has a valid point, a point that was brought up a lot before SC2 beta with that long MBS, auto-mining discussion and all of that. My opinion back then still stands now, all these easy mechanics are making SC2 a boring game and not as exciting to watch. I don't think new SC players realize just how much more interesting SC2 as an esport could have been, instead we settle for big a-move fights with deathballs a bit of autocast elements (which gets boring after a while). However, beginners and casual players would not have liked it this way so Blizzard simply could not do it and we instead end up with a middle solution which is much more casual friendly but also much less exciting as an esport. It's a sacrifice Blizzard did. I agree with this, although this probably isn't worth discussing any more. I am often finding myself getting bored with watching "the best players in the world" play out the same games over and over. Watching big tournament games sometimes feels like I'm watching regular ladder games or something and isn't exciting enough to hold my interest for very long, sadly. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
What I mean by that? Say if you'd reduce the aoe of fungal, storm, etc. increase the damage and decrease mana-requirements. Suddenly you need to really "hit" stuff perfectly and do it quickly. The problem with especially fungal is, every bronze-noob manages to get ONE fungal off that hits EVERYTHING. In BW the spells worked because there was no smartcasting. Now with smartcasting Blizz has to re-work the spells themselves to make them more demanding overall. Blizz just nerfed aoe because it was too easy to use, instead of letting it stay strong and make it harder to use...in different ways. | ||
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