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Hijungle
Australia67 Posts
 . But I digress, I've watched a lot of matches, mainly casted by NukeTheStars, and I haven't been able to find much, if any, Queens used in professional play. Why aren't they used by professional players? I realize they are pretty weak for a spell-caster, but they must have something which professional players like Jaedong can use, right? | ||
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4vvhiplash7
South Africa392 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
100/100 in cost Spawn broodlings cost a whopping 150 energy, so it takes a very long while to use them , in which time you are very vurnable. And if they get EMPed you are fucked in so many ways. There are better options to fight against ZvP. ZvZ does not reach the Hive and thus the queen stage very often. Two recent games from soulkey against fantasy with the use of queens: | ||
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elf_01
United States168 Posts
1) The (extremely rare case of) Hive-Tech ZvZ, where the queen's ensnare both slows mutalisk attack and movement speeds and grants some degree of air superiority to the user (until devourers pop). This, however, is very rare due to the fact that the gas/minerals for the queen's nest (not sure if ensnare needs upgrading?) and the queens lead to diminished mutalisk numbers and the battle may be lost before the queens pop. 2) ZvTerran Mech. Used lately by (amongst others, but most notably)  Neo.G_Soulkey, Queens are used for their ability to broodling off tanks and keep the mech-ball's size manageable. Queen/Hydra/Defiler is a very strong composition against mech, as the main anti-dark-swarm measure against Hydras is tank splash.Insight from: D- level zerg (feel free to correct me? this is just my thoughts) | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
In ZvP they can be used to snipe high templar with spawn broodlings, but this is a lot harder said than done and takes a lot of time. I would like to say that just sniping the templar with mutalisks would be easier and more practical. Example But most interesting of all is their use in ZvT. Recently some Zerg players have been using queens to defeat mech switches from terrans. It is fairly solid if the Zerg player can gain some momentum with his queens. Still, this is not all that common and it is not the only way to beat the mech switch. | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
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Hijungle
Australia67 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2594 Posts
edit: Weird youtube videos don't work when the URL given are for at a specific time : \ | ||
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ymir233
United States8275 Posts
This rapid infesting of the CCs one-by-one really is like a blitzkrieg: -It minimizes the chance of harmful muta/goliath engagements on terran ground by moving from one CC to another quickly -Cripples the Terran by putting them on at least 1/no mining bases right off the bat -If they make a mistake and have less than 400 minerals....it's over. -Decreases the chance of clutch repair by SCVs into goliath support since the mutas don't need to attack as much. So far the only really effective strategy I've seen with Queens other than Ensnare. With Ensnare, there are a whole bunch of uses. If you watch the 1st set of the last MSL finals with great vs Hydra, there's this awe-inspiring moment where great gets queens + ensnare in ZvZ while getting third/Hive, attack's Hydra's third with his lings to distract Hydra's mutas, then backstabs Hydra's nat with his own mutas and snipes the spire WHILE using ensnare to trap Hydra's mutas in the middle of the map. Really smart usage and I think that sort of attack could even be used as sort of a 'timing attack' in Hive tech ZvZ. | ||
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Simplistik
2114 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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oBlade
United States6028 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10360 Posts
TvZ: Most zerg use this build vs Fantasy because of his lack of skill in handling Bio xD Queens rush in first with hydras right behind. queens broodling tanks, and if no tanks, goliaths. hydras rape through goliaths. ZvZ: hardly uses, if anything, its for ensnare. check out Jaedong vs Yellow | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On May 14 2011 23:50 FlaShFTW wrote: PvZ: Most commonly pulled off by ZerO (god he wants EVERY EXCUSE to make queens) when the Toss heavily invests in HT. Broodling and rush in with mass hydras to cripple army. Also, if you saw that Ace match between bisu and zero, Ensaring units can lessen the mobility of the roaming zealots. | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
thread. | ||
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
I suggest you try watching a few of the Korean VODs. I know it's not English, but you're really missing out if you don't hear the Koreans screaming about reavers and such. You tend to get a really good idea of what's meaningful in StarCraft by listening to the Korean's excitement, and it's pretty easy to figure out a few phrases and unit names to get the gist of what they're trying to point out. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
It must be frustrating as hell from T's perspective to lose a CC within seconds. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
In ZvZ it is actually the queen that shuts down mutas in the late game, just we don't see that much because late game ZvZ is rare. In ZvT queens play an important role in breaking mech, but mech sort of comes and goes as a fashion. In ZvP queens are good for sniping HTs. See Zero's games for some of the best queen usage. Of course queens could probably be utilized more than they are, but it takes time to become good with implementing a caster into your game and most players feel more confident using other methods to get the same job done. Also, there's some potential I think for using ensnare in combination with swarm against bionic or Protoss death balls, but you don't really see this because it requires too much control to handle these different types of casters along with your army. A strategy like this was bravely tried by Eriador against NaDa (at Blizzcon?) but it failed because Eriador needed four hands to do everything and we humans only have two, you see? | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 15 2011 00:39 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I really doubt that Queens would become standard. Jaedong used them effectively a few years ago but decided that it just wasnt worth all the apm allocation. There are still many ways to deal with mech terran and if it becomes useful then people will just use bio which has always been the standard TvZ strat. It looks to me like queens are the standard response to mech switches in TvZ now. I don't see why a unit has to be used in every situation to be called standard. True, maybe Terrans will get tired of it and stop doing mech switches so often, but that doesn't mean queens haven't been proven to be a very strong, very normal response. I think something can be called standard as soon as you no longer have to be a weird, creative player who uses it once in a blue moon. | ||
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anvilface
4 Posts
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
1) gas cost. Mid-game, queens are competing for gas with mutalisks and lurkers. Late-game, they compete for gas with defilers. Especially vs. the defilers part, once defilers get consume, defilers are much better because they can be useful as soon as they hatch, but you have to protect your queens until they build up energy. Mid-game, getting just a single queen plus ensnare costs 200/200 i think (or maybe it's more?) AND you have to wait for your queen to build up 100 energy, and before that it's useless. Most players would rather get 2 mutas, which can be useful right away. 2) Queens require so much apm. Like, more than even progamers can handle, especially since they also have to micro their mutas, defilers, etc. at the same time. Although some progamers are starting to incorporate queens into their play now. 3) Queens vs protoss: Spawn broodling hardly works on anything worthwhile. (Reavers and archons can't be spawned. HT have so little HP that other units can pick them off easily, without having to wait until 150 energy. Using mutalisks to snipe HTs was quite a popular strategy at one point). | ||
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
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Miwyfe
England101 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On May 16 2011 03:25 thenexusp wrote: Mid-game, getting just a single queen plus ensnare costs 200/200 i think (or maybe it's more?) That's a pretty deceptive way of stating it. A queen is 100/100, ensnare research is 100/100. If you invest in queens you will not be getting just 1. By the same logic, "getting just a single defiler with consume costs 150/250", "getting a single lurker costs 325/325", and "getting a single marine with stim and range costs 300/250". The point is that if you want won't research ensnare for a single queen, you will be getting a group of them for ensnaring and broodlings. On May 16 2011 03:14 anvilface wrote: Queens should be used against bio because ensnare greatly decreases the stimmed marines' dps. Yes, but at the same time, against bio getting fast queens slows down teching to defilers, and swarms + plague are much more crucial. Once you have the defilers, a plague is more effective against a bio ball than ensnare (and you no longer have to worry about saving up / running out of energy). | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On May 14 2011 23:58 aimaimaim wrote: Oh come on the Queens were purely a gimmick, typical Zeroish troll, amusingly employed even before his win was expectable. purely for adding insult to injury :pAlso, if you saw that Ace match between bisu and zero, Ensaring units can lessen the mobility of the roaming zealots. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
1.) Queen + defiler is very difficult to micro correctly. 2.) Given a choice between ensnare or swarm + plague (with consume for replenishing energy), the defiler is the obvious choice. 3.) The timing of when you can initially use the queens is a bit slower than you might think since even after getting the queens you need to save energy for a few seconds... and.... 4.) Going with #3, a single dark swarm can hold off an entire Terran army from breaking a choke, but ensnare is more of an offensive spell that you use to attack the Terran's army... and... 5.) Going with #3 and #4, you'll need multiple ensnares to completely capture the Terran's army, so if you are trying to use it defensively you're going to find it difficult. Of course, ensnare is an underrated spell, but as I said earlier, it takes time to master the use of a unit, incorporating it into your game play with coordinated micro + correct timings. Until recently, there wasn't a lot of room for queens in progamer level play, and ironically that room has come into the picture from using broodlings (either on tanks or HTs) more than ensnare, which was only really prominent in ZvZ. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Someone needs to make a Queens highlight reel with a Don't Stop Me Now soundtrack. | ||
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Widgeteer
United States3 Posts
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mutantmagnet
United States3791 Posts
I'm doubting it's safe but I haven't seen enough ZvZs to see this fail. OTOH I've seen plenty of ZvZs where zerg end up with more than 12 mutas. Once you hit 16 mutas it is economically viable to get Queens because you begin to quickly reach diminishing returns on getting more mutas compared to investing in Queen's Nest, Ensnare and a single queen to screw up the mobility and DPS of your opponent. | ||
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
cant remember if it was game 1 or game 5, but savior uses queens to infest ccs, then humiliation occurs :[ | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
On June 12 2011 21:00 mutantmagnet wrote: One thing I'm curious about when it comes to ZvZ is why does it even require spore colonies to "safely" force Hive tech play. I'm doubting it's safe but I haven't seen enough ZvZs to see this fail. OTOH I've seen plenty of ZvZs where zerg end up with more than 12 mutas. Once you hit 16 mutas it is economically viable to get Queens because you begin to quickly reach diminishing returns on getting more mutas compared to investing in Queen's Nest, Ensnare and a single queen to screw up the mobility and DPS of your opponent. Queen's Nest, 150/100, 60 second build time. Lose a drone, 50 minerals, 1 larva. Ensnare, 100/100, 80 second build time. Queen, 100/100, 50 second build time. Because you'd just get rolled. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On June 12 2011 23:34 raviy wrote: Queen's Nest, 150/100, 60 second build time. Lose a drone, 50 minerals, 1 larva. Ensnare, 100/100, 80 second build time. Queen, 100/100, 50 second build time. Because you'd just get rolled. If youre going to hive tech anyway, then you should get double defiler mounds for plague/consume then tech to queens | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3791 Posts
On June 12 2011 23:34 raviy wrote: Because you'd just get rolled. You won't get rolled. Once you try to control two groups of mutas scourge throw off your ability to manage APM which creates the viability to transition into Queens. Once they ensnare one of the muta flocks the APM demanded to play is reduced which puts you in a better mental and physical condition to close out the game or play the extended one. The reduction on APM demand is well worth the risk. | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On June 12 2011 21:00 mutantmagnet wrote: One thing I'm curious about when it comes to ZvZ is why does it even require spore colonies to "safely" force Hive tech play. I'm doubting it's safe but I haven't seen enough ZvZs to see this fail. OTOH I've seen plenty of ZvZs where zerg end up with more than 12 mutas. Once you hit 16 mutas it is economically viable to get Queens because you begin to quickly reach diminishing returns on getting more mutas compared to investing in Queen's Nest, Ensnare and a single queen to screw up the mobility and DPS of your opponent. Because gas. If you use gas to tech you have less in your army than your opponent. Build spores or die. The returns from extra mutals just don't diminish enough. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On June 12 2011 21:00 mutantmagnet wrote: One thing I'm curious about when it comes to ZvZ is why does it even require spore colonies to "safely" force Hive tech play. I'm doubting it's safe but I haven't seen enough ZvZs to see this fail. OTOH I've seen plenty of ZvZs where zerg end up with more than 12 mutas. Once you hit 16 mutas it is economically viable to get Queens because you begin to quickly reach diminishing returns on getting more mutas compared to investing in Queen's Nest, Ensnare and a single queen to screw up the mobility and DPS of your opponent. Which ZvZs have you been watching? 12 mutas is actually really deep into the mid-game and that's assuming no army engagement. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
On June 13 2011 19:35 writer22816 wrote: IMO Queens also have potential vs Bio TvZ. Ensnare can be very powerful against MnM as Jaedong showed vs Fantasy on Sin Chupung-Ryeong. As stated before, it´s sort of a risk since ensnare is far from being as good vs bio as plague/swarm. If you´re getting pushed with bio too fast for plague/swarm and consume to finish however you might get that risk payed off if you go for queens with ensnare, but as stated, it´s a risk that I dont think is really viable to use regurlarly. | ||
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
On June 13 2011 02:56 mutantmagnet wrote: You won't get rolled. Once you try to control two groups of mutas scourge throw off your ability to manage APM which creates the viability to transition into Queens. Once they ensnare one of the muta flocks the APM demanded to play is reduced which puts you in a better mental and physical condition to close out the game or play the extended one. The reduction on APM demand is well worth the risk. I'm not saying you'd be rolled when you have 20 mutalisks + queen v 25 mutalisks. I'm saying you'd be rolled in the 3 minutes it takes you to get a queen out. This would work if you have a lead (in which case, why would you not crush the other guy?), or if the air distance between the two bases is huge, or if your opponent is ridiculously passive (which in a zvz would be... not a single progamer). | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:08 raviy wrote: I'm not saying you'd be rolled when you have 20 mutalisks + queen v 25 mutalisks. I'm saying you'd be rolled in the 3 minutes it takes you to get a queen out. This would work if you have a lead (in which case, why would you not crush the other guy?), or if the air distance between the two bases is huge, or if your opponent is ridiculously passive (which in a zvz would be... not a single progamer). Why not crush the other guy? Because you suck at muta scourge micro like Great. Great had a BO win against hydra in G1 of their finals, but decided to turtle up till hive tech and get queens out. | ||
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:40 Release wrote: Why not crush the other guy? Because you suck at muta scourge micro like Great. Great had a BO win against hydra in G1 of their finals, but decided to turtle up till hive tech and get queens out. Great's 3hatch build is a BO win v overpool? By the time Great found out Hydra went overpool, he already had his 3rd hatch planted, so it wasn't a reactionary response. Hydra's spire went up a full minute before Great's, forcing the spores... What the hell are you talking about? | ||
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fatfail
United States386 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Widgeteer
United States3 Posts
On June 12 2011 23:17 JMave wrote: I think the biggest factor as to why queens will not cause a revolutionary meta-game shift is because of it's unreliability. I'm curious to know what you mean by unreliability. I mean, every unit is unreliable, that is, every unit can be countered, right? | ||
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