EPTWorld Cyber Games to officially retire StarCraft 1 - Page 24
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:07 playa wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the last big SC 2 tourney (IEM), didn't Korea take the top 3 spots? To my knowledge, those weren't even the best Koreans in their scene, meanwhile most of the best foreigners competed in this. I think SC 2 is going down the same path, so I don't think there's really a big difference there. Even if 1 country is dominant, big deal? That never stopped people from loving SC at WCG. Did you see flash vs jaedong last year at the finals? Parity might be a desirable thing, but I can't see that stopping someone from enjoy a game at WCG. Who doesn't like watching an underdog, anyways? The problem is that there wouldn't be any Koreans at a hypothetical WCG 2011 BW tournament because of all the Blizzard vs KeSPA drama. Almost all the dominant non-Korean pros have switched over to SC2, and whatever last vestiges of the non-Korean BW scene would be far less skilled than the average Korean BW player, so the games would probably look even worse than the worst of Proleague. It would be nice to have BW at WCG 2011, but without the Koreans and the best non-Koreans, the games probably won't be entertaining. You would be better off watching any normal Proleague match for better played, more entertaining games. Without the big foreign names, the novelty of watching relative unknowns duking it out would quickly fade once it becomes evident that their level of play is just not up to the level that we all enjoy out of the average Korean. | ||
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Krogan
Sweden375 Posts
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt. I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about. I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have. Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.) Not going to happen unless Blizz decides to move away from their hard counter system. SC2 lacks units who can completely wreck the opposing side because of how they are designed and how they function, not because they have some arbitrary damage bonus against a certain type of unit. Unit positioning is also not as important when most units are extremely mobile. SC2 needs more siege tank-type units that are more powerful when positioned correctly but can't have their positioning changed easily. Not to mention that the SC2 siege tank is weaker than the BW siege tank. | ||
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Arnstein
Norway3381 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote:there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW. Haha, "OK". | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:14 eviltomahawk wrote: The problem is that there wouldn't be any Koreans at a hypothetical WCG 2011 BW tournament because of all the Blizzard vs KeSPA drama. Almost all the dominant non-Korean pros have switched over to SC2, and whatever last vestiges of the non-Korean BW scene would be far less skilled than the average Korean BW player, so the games would probably look even worse than the worst of Proleague. It would be nice to have BW at WCG 2011, but without the Koreans and the best non-Koreans, the games probably won't be entertaining. You would be better off watching any normal Proleague match for better played, more entertaining games. Without the big foreign names, the novelty of watching relative unknowns duking it out would quickly fade once it becomes evident that their level of play is just not up to the level that we all enjoy out of the average Korean. If they had SC and there were no Koreans, then parity fans would have to be excited. However, if that were to be the case, I can't fault WCG for not including SC. After all, the finals will be held in Korea and they obviously are the best at the game. It would probably be wrong or at least feel wrong. As for non Korean competition, I don't see it as a big deal; in the recent ISL qualification, at least 60 foreigners who were capable of B rank played and did so. ISL is a great tourney, but there's no way WCG wouldn't have even more skilled players playing. On top of that, when it comes to "dominant players," you're basically referring to Nony, Idra and Ret. 3 players making or breaking a game? I dunno about that. Also, as far as skill level goes, would you guys be able to watch SC WCG games from like 10 years ago and think the skill level was high? Who is to say the skill level in SC 2 is really that high after less than a year? | ||
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Resh[Ger]
Germany8 Posts
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
I think he meant "no reason but nostalgia", which reverses the meaning but still might not hold much truth. There are lots of reasons to stick with BW, if people want to that's their prerogative. Still, it would be nice if the BW half of the forums and the SC2 half of the forums got along whenever a BW thread gets news'ed. | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
On March 08 2011 03:52 ZeritoN wrote: Makes sense to drop BW but keep WC3... /sarcasm One word: Grubby. That makes WC3 not exclusively Chinese. Maybe ToD while we're at it. If you ever wondered about Chinese sc2 scene, there are quite a few that were WC3 pros. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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aru
183 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW. So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward. I'm not sure about other people but I would quit watching e-sports if Korean BW died. I don't really care about any other e-sports except BW and I while I do understand people caring about e-sports as a whole, I disagree with that ideology. A game should be able to succeed on its own merits, not because there is no competition. It's not like the people who genuinely dislike SC2 are going to suddenly like it because competitive BW no longer exists. On March 07 2011 18:20 jalstar wrote: Oh really? Take back what I said then, I should really start taking more things from random BW posts with a grain of salt if they concern SC2. Actually went back to read some earlier posts... GSL4 was relatively empty because it was on the same day as the OSL finals. Screenshot comparison by SDM showing the audience differences: http://twitpic.com/3uvfob vs http://twitpic.com/3uvf59. I read some people claim that the GSL picture was taken before the game started but I don't think they'd be waving their things if the progamers weren't on stage/about to be. Then again, the OSL finals were full 2 hours before the games started and there were literally hundreds to thousands of people in the lobby cause they couldn't fit in. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
Now Flash will always have the last laugh about WCG | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW. So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward. You're entitled to your opinion, but as of right now, the same reasons people stay with BW are the exact same reasons people refused to switch to CS:S. The gameplay is just so much more balanced. The reason I said "right now" is because I want to reserve judgment until all of the expansion packs for SC2 come out, and then give it another half year or so to see how the game evolves. If by 2014 (or whatever the date is), the games continue to be somewhat like the games we have now, SC2 is fucked. I think almost all of the current SC2 pros share the sentiment that BW is the superior game right now, but since it is almost impossible to break into the BW scene as a foreigner, coupled with great prize money and sponsorships worldwide, the only chance for a foreigner to go pro is with SC2. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:51 Qaatar wrote: You're entitled to your opinion, but as of right now, the same reasons people stay with BW are the exact same reasons people refused to switch to CS:S. The gameplay is just so much more balanced. The reason I said "right now" is because I want to reserve judgment until all of the expansion packs for SC2 come out, and then give it another half year or so to see how the game evolves. If by 2014 (or whatever the date is), the games continue to be somewhat like the games we have now, SC2 is fucked. I think almost all of the current SC2 pros share the sentiment that BW is the superior game right now, but since it is almost impossible to break into the BW scene as a foreigner, coupled with great prize money and sponsorships worldwide, the only chance for a foreigner to go pro is with SC2. Agreed, I just like the units and the mechanics better. I played SC2 for a while because a lot of my friends played, and it was fun... for a while. The units are so lackluster... The marauder, roach, immortal, colossus feel like such boring units. Thor and marauder don't even fit in with the terran theme, the BC already occupies that role. The roach doesn't really fit in with the zerg theme either. There's also the terrible terrible damage, terrible terrible range, and terrible terrible supply count syndrome. Then there's the deathball; maxed out armies are also much smaller in unit count, and take up less room, so large fights have nothing on BW tvp or zvp battles, which can take up more than 2 screens. There is much less variation between the races, like all races possessing low dps 'tanks' like marauder and roach, which really belongs to protoss. Then there's the gameplay. Automine and MBS means macro is no longer a difficult skill, the pure macro player no longer exists, since you don't need to dedicate that much effort to macro. Even protoss macro in BW is harder than SC2 zerg macro. Also, micro is easier too, with good unit AI, smartcast, infinite unit selection. Smartcast is especially disgusting; even newbs can carpet storm with ease, spam fungals, clone feedback. Micro just isn't very impressive. In BW, you see a good flank with lurker ling wreck your MnM army, you respect your opponent for the move. In SC2, you see some terran kite your army with marauders, or carpet storm, and you really aren't impressed, since you could easier pull it off as well. Also, BW UI allows for more defined playstyles. If your macro is good, you can roll your opponent, if your micro is good, you can destroy their armies with ease and win early. If your multitask and army control is good, stall for the lategame to abuse your advantage. I'm sure all of these points have been beaten to death already, but this is how I feel. I play SC2 for casual games and to relax, I play BW when I wanna be competitive. | ||
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mdma-_-
Nauru1213 Posts
On March 08 2011 03:52 ZeritoN wrote: Makes sense to drop BW but keep WC3... /sarcasm As opposed to bw, wc3 still has ~ 8 players capable of making the finals. (3 chinese, 3 koreans, grubby and nicker) | ||
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Trozz
Canada3457 Posts
I imagined seeing both. Not enough players. | ||
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ProxyPL
Poland230 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:36 playa wrote: If they had SC and there were no Koreans, then parity fans would have to be excited. However, if that were to be the case, I can't fault WCG for not including SC. After all, the finals will be held in Korea and they obviously are the best at the game. It would probably be wrong or at least feel wrong. As for non Korean competition, I don't see it as a big deal; in the recent ISL qualification, at least 60 foreigners who were capable of B rank played and did so. ISL is a great tourney, but there's no way WCG wouldn't have even more skilled players playing. On top of that, when it comes to "dominant players," you're basically referring to Nony, Idra and Ret. 3 players making or breaking a game? I dunno about that. Also, as far as skill level goes, would you guys be able to watch SC WCG games from like 10 years ago and think the skill level was high? Who is to say the skill level in SC 2 is really that high after less than a year? Out of the 16 non-Koreans that played at the WCG 2010 Grand Finals, I researched and confirmed that at least 9 have switched over to SC2, which does not bode well for the non-Korean BW scene. Some of the notable switchers include dominant players such as Brat_OK, White_Ra, and Sen. Out of the 7 non-switchers, I can't find much information about 3 (heme, legend, xGs.small), 2 are Japanese (Kuroa, nazoman), 1 has retired from progaming to aid his ailing mother with cancer (vulture), and 1 has stated that he wants to stay with BW (G5). It doesn't seem logical or economical for WCG to broadcast BW. No Korean players or broadcasters means no Korean fans. No non-Korean "big names" (like White_Ra, Brat_OK, and Nony) mean almost no foreign fans. The BW tournament would be a ghost town compared to the SC2 tournament, especially after the novelty of watching non-Koreans wears off. The costs of running the BW tournament would probably not justify the potentially small audience it would attract. | ||
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