I'm not going to translate the whole thing word by word; I'll just give you the cliff's note:
World Cyber Games announced officially today that StarCraft 1 will no longer be part of WCG Grand Finals lineup. In its stead, StarCraft 2 has been selected.
Reason behind it is that "We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world, as well as the partner companies. Also, as we aim to represent the world's premier gaming tournament, we chose to use StarCraft 2 -- as the game is popular worldwide."
Fomos notes, while StarCraft 1 is removed only from the Grand Finals lineup, it is not likely to be seen on any WCG events from now on.
This is sad. No more BW players at wcg, they're becoming even more seperated from us foreigners cant say i didn't see it coming, but it still hard to swallow
Makes sense. Barely anyone outside of Korea plays the game competitively anymore. Majority of top foreign players have moved on to SC2. How many "top" foreign players are left in BW anyways?
Whatever foreign "competition" that used to be there have probably all moved over to SC2 already, It'll just be a battle between the Progamers that win the Korean Qualifier, like it usually is anyways...
As much as I want to disagree with WCG's choice, it's actually logical. There's virtually no foreign scene left in BW, so something like WCG would be strapped for good players. It's a shame though, I was hoping that it'd be able to pull through for at least one more year. =\
Watching sc2 is so much less exciting than watching sc1. I can see that they chose sc2 because of the more players, but the spectators will suffer. I was hoping for one more year so Jaedong or Flash would make it to the hall of fame.
Saw this coming, since WCG pulled off similar promotion stunts before to make some sort of statement. It's not like WCG really has a choice this time around, anyway.
On March 07 2011 11:53 Release wrote: Watching sc2 is so much less exciting than watching sc1. I can see that they chose sc2 because of the more players, but the spectators will suffer.
Agreed and I'm a sc2 player now (used to play bw) Oh well at least proleague is the most exciting tourney to watch.
On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
This should have happened a long time ago. The only thing remotely competitive about WCG BW is WCG Korea, and even then they don't take it that seriously. If WCG was foreigner only, it might be interesting to watch.
It's a shame but on the other hand it would've been stupid not to do it. Almost all of the remaining non-Korean "pros" switched over to SC2 anyway so it would've been even more one sided.
Guess I'll just be watching CS from the WCG this year then
Pretty unfortunate but sort of understandable considering SC2 is more popular in the non Korean world. It's just a shame they couldn't have both because I don't particularly like SC2.
I wonder if WC3 will be included this year? Guessing so but I can't tell from the website because it's a maze.
On the other hand, I personally believe maps and overall player skill/experience are the main issues preventing SC2 pro play from being as epic as BW games, and that will be remedied with time. (Can you imagine how BW today would play on the original Blizzard maps?)
On March 07 2011 11:49 HKriceboy88 wrote: I'm sad, but i guess this was bound to happen one day. No more auto 1,2,3 finishes for Korea. =[
what makes you think korea won't take 123 in sc2?
Happened at IEM where Koreans dominated a decent, but not strong western field.
I don't see why it couldn't happen again at WCG.
With WCG being more of a global tournament I can understand why they switched from BW to SC2. SC2 is catching on day by day in the western world for both competitive and casual gamers, whereas BW was left just for the hardcore gamers.
It's sad to see the change, but it was one that was necessary.
Hm, I wonder how long until more tournaments start getting rid of SC1. I never played it, but I heard about how awesome it was so it's still sad. SC2 is amazing though, and it's way more popular than BW is... at least in anywhere except Korea.
This decision isn't about SC2 > BW at all I think.
It's a WORLD championship and there really isn't a scene anymore outside of korea so a world championship would make no sense. Some sort of tourney in Korea would be cool but no idea if that's possible with the schedules of the other tourneys
this is terrible news, i play sc2, but BW is a classic and the reason why esports is where it is today, it would make sense if they excluded BW if the scene was dying, but it isn't, this doesn't do BW justice @ all, but i guess the OGM/MBC suit has something to do with it, but still this is really sad
On March 07 2011 12:09 StarscreamG1 wrote: Let's see this from the positive perspective: jaedong, bisu and flash will start to think seriously switch to SC 2
That's not going to happen until the kespa-blizzard bullshit settles down. And besides, give the current SC2 pros a chance to shine for another year
As long as WCG is replaced by another tournament featuring the top32 Kespa players this doesn't bother me. The Grand Finals has become less and less competitive and WCG Korea was the "real" tournament.
Edit: Okay, for all the SC2ers who decided to hijack this thread with "bw is officially dead," you should know that Koreans have never ranked WCG high up on importance. Their Korean leagues are far more important and WCG dropping SC will not have any effect on the Korean BW scene.
So many good moments at WCG with SC:BW... but well now its time to see great moments with SC2 at WCG!!! What happened to Warcraft III is slowly happening to SC:BW...,
But if we look in the positive side
On March 07 2011 12:09 StarscreamG1 wrote: Let's see this from the positive perspective: jaedong, bisu and flash will start to think seriously switch to SC 2
On March 07 2011 12:09 StarscreamG1 wrote: Let's see this from the positive perspective: jaedong, bisu and flash will start to think seriously switch to SC 2
Don't be silly. WCG is not nearly as important to them as OSL and MSL.
I've seen it coming sooner or later, but anyway can some1 tell me the names of most interesting players left playing BW. I know Jaedong still plays, but I was not playing BW so I don't know scene that much. Most famous Boxer moved long time ago. Link to some recent big BW tournament would also be appreciated.
At least the non-koreans will have a chance at winning WCG now. Before it was always the game of "which korean doesn't have to play another korean on the way to the finals?"
I don't see any reason why BW should die and make way. SC2, which is my game of choice for both watching and playing, can make its own way, and have its own fan base. I dunno if WCG necessarily needed to have BW(seriously, who else would even compete besides Korea?) but I really can't see MSL/OSL/Proleague just dying away. I'd be sad if they did.
edit:
On March 07 2011 12:13 entrust wrote: I've seen it coming sooner or later, but anyway can some1 tell me the names of most interesting players left playing BW. I know Jaedong still plays, but I was not playing BW so I don't know scene that much. Most famous Boxer moved long time ago. Link to some recent big BW tournament would also be appreciated.
Basically none of the really, really good modern BW players left for SC2, only people who are (very) low tier A-teamers, B-teamers, and oooold school gosus who were past their prime in BW. I dunno what exactly you want for a "link to a recent big BW tournament" but you can find proleague, MSL, and OSL VODs on youtube. My favorite channel is Moktira's, he uploads pretty much every single game, and there are TONS of them.
The power rank on the right hand sidebar can point you to some good players to watch at the moment.
On March 07 2011 12:11 VzO wrote: YES ! at last, broodwar is out of the way, JD, flash switch nao !
Yes... because a tourney where the korean qualifiers are more prestigious than the actual event is gone, JD and Flash should give up their 200k salaries.
Anyway, as much as I enjoy watching bw, I really don't blame them. Last year wcg was pretty much a joke.
On March 07 2011 12:09 StarscreamG1 wrote: Let's see this from the positive perspective: jaedong, bisu and flash will start to think seriously switch to SC 2 :0
Im really happy about this. And to be perfectly honest, i am starting to enjoy SC2 games a hell of a lot lately. Its different from SC1, but thats whats good in my eyes. Good news!
geez the trolling in this thread is kind of obvious. Even people who would normally jump on anti-BW sentiments aren't falling for it.
Echoing that WCG was never as entertaining as the main leagues (well, the one iteration of it I was here for lol). It's not really that huge of a loss.
On March 07 2011 12:31 iamho wrote: Are there sc2 players constantly searching the bw forums for trolling opportunities? Jesus Christ.
They go for low-hanging fruit, and to be honest that's what the BW community tends to be. Not that I necessarily blame you guys for it. The mods are overworked, I guess.
WCG is crap anyways. I haven't watch many games from WCG. Its a good decision that WCG went for SC2 since there's more foreigners playing SC2... I doubt that e-Sports will be big outside korea nyways.
And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
sure evolve all you want
just don't be liek "BW FINALLY GONE THANK GODDD THAT PIECE OF OLD SHIT IS DEAD SC2 SC2 SC2 SC2 JAEDONG BISU FLASH STORK SC2 GOGOGO"
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
and just in case some of you haven't noticed, the brood war is still evolving, with new trends and build orders being discovered. I feel sorry for those who abandoned watching pro bw
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
sure evolve all you want
just don't be liek "BW FINALLY GONE THANK GODDD THAT PIECE OF OLD SHIT IS DEAD SC2 SC2 SC2 SC2 JAEDONG BISU FLASH STORK SC2 GOGOGO"
I wont. I love the SC scene, i love the JvF hype and the MSL/OSL finals. SC has been the most important game for esports in my view, along with perhaps Quake and CS. But that quote of yours goes both ways you know SC2 have really picked up since its release. Strategies are coming together, players are getting crazy good. It's all there infront of you, but some people just dont want to look I guess.
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
To me Sc2 looks more like degeneration than evolution. Just sayin'
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
Evolve seems to imply improvement.
You must have missed your Darwin class.
In the contextof the above post ? Sad news, I like one sided games, and we had good games between koreans last year. Plus motherfucking kolll is still playing for instance^^ The amount of trolling is pretty funny though.
People are surprised by this? Last years wcg had the worst turnout ever and that was before sc2 was released, now all the good foreigners have gone inactive or switched to SC2 so it wouldn't even be interesting watching jd/flash/whoever crushing through random B+ people in 10 minutes
the games at any tournament are more about sponsorship and money than how skillful the game is, thats why wcg has games like guitar hero and dead or alive and cell phone games at wcg, and the public interest for BW outside korea is just way too low to justify having it at the tournament. This isn't a big blow to BW anyway, most korean progamers just like to go overseas to play and meet the foreign fans since they rarely get to travel given their career and never get to compete on an international stage. I've read interviews and they've said they aren't practicing much and just playing for fun so even though WCG is the most prestigious tournament for most other games its incredibly insignificant as far as BW goes
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
Evolve seems to imply improvement.
Evolving means coping with the demands for today. SC is not viable any longer (in a world-wide, esports way). It might be really sad, but its true.
ok stop it please with the SC2>BW stuff. This is neither the place nor the time. If you want to bash the greatest game ever, just PM and we can have a PM war
On March 07 2011 11:56 Antoine wrote: On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
Except there is no "sc2>bw" stuff apart from 2 idiots who got banned (rightfully so) for it its possible to enjoy both games as i do, not sure why liking BW has to negate liking SC2 and vice versa
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
Evolve seems to imply improvement.
You must have missed your Darwin class.
You must have not learned your Pokemon. For the most part.
Kinda sad because WCG and brood war were what got me into progaming in the first place. Man, those first brood war casts by tasteless were epic. Highly recommended for any newer tasteless fans
This is pretty sad to hear, but I guess it shouldn't be a surprise. I was hoping that I would see a foreigner win the grand finals though. At least SC2 will hopefully be more competitive.
meh so BW pros in Korea is basically going to lose an annual oversea vacation and around few grands USD of pocket money a year ... especially for the likes of Flash or Jaedong, the only way that they even consider switching to SC2 is Blizzard suing KeSPA to dead and completely putting a stop to the BW scene, OR in another 10 years when they can't compete in BW no more, whichever comes first ...
it's a logical choice as SC2 is more global at the moment and foreigners will have a better chance of competing for a podium spot. Though personally, I do expect a Korean 1-2-3 in this coming WCG ...
On March 07 2011 12:49 s2pid_loser wrote: too bad for broodwar but great for sc2!! maybe the four pillars will be more tempted to play sc2 now!! lol
Lol you realize WCG is the yearly joke tournament for the koreans, where the only incentive for going is to go on a vacation wherever the tourney is and getting some money for smashing foreigners?
I can't believe no one is mentioning the most disappointing thing about this: no more awesome progamer v progamer and progamer vs foreigner reps. Having that JvF rep from Tau is pretty much the most awesome thing ever.
However, this decision is no surprise. In fact I would have been shocked if BW had stayed to be honest.
On March 07 2011 11:49 saint_fu wrote: So sad to see that foreign SC:BW is slowly fading out. I just hope bw remains strong in Korea for many years to come.
Nevertheless, BW outlived many, many games and it is still very successful. Let's not forget SC2 is BW's child.
What confuses me the most is why people seem to think that this is actually big news... the foreign BW scene has been dead for a while now, and WCG is almost completely irrelevant to the Korean scene anyway. It was honestly silly that WCG had BW last year.
I have to say that watching SC:BW is more exciting than SC2 but that's because people are getting comfortable with the gameplay and its just barely out, but i believe in time SC2 will get more exciting as more and more players willl discover more and more strategies
Well, there goes my chance of ever meeting TBLS in person. I don't see myself going to S.Korea anytime soon...
In addition, I remember Jaedong ROFLstomping some poor Protoss player from S.America who went a weird 2 gate first build...we'll never see that again. And to think I was considering raising my rank high enough on ICCup so I could have a shot at a progamer for shits and giggles.
I agree with everyone else who says that this is the most logical decision for SC2. Looking at the player roster for WCG 2010, most, if not all, of the non-Korean players are currently playing SC2, and most of the more famous ones, such as Brat_OK and White-Ra, were already playing both SC2 and BW at the time. The total number of competitors that year was 19, which seems to be a shell of former WCGs.
We all watch WCG to see epic games between Koreans (Flash vs JD), epic games between foreigners (Idra vs White-Ra), and games where foreigners somehow scrape by with wins against Koreans (Mondragon vs Savior). Now that all the foreigners have switched, we only get to see complete unknown foreigners play low-level games, Koreans roflstomping them, and maybe Koreans playing some epic games that could've been seen in any other Korean league, assuming that KeSPA even allows their players into WCG.
This is a correct step for WCG. The foreign BW is, unfortunately, completely dead and replaced by SC2. Competitive BW only exists in Korea, and it would be unwise for WCG to cater only to Koreans at this point. The world is playing SC2, but only Korea is playing BW.
Now, I'm only worried about WCG's partnership with Samsung and OGN right now. Since WCG is no longer including BW, I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung pulls all their funding and OGN cancels their broadcasting partnership.
I believe in SC2 but the two games were different enough to co-exist. This is a bit sad, and much of the decision to remove it (permanently? or so they currently say) is probably from Blizz/Kespa having their fight over rights
WCG was always exciting to see foreigners get pretty far even though the Koreans would win in the end; I remember so many close matches where it was Korean vs Foreigner and sometimes the Foreigner was straight up better or just put up a really interesting show.
Good bye ;(
(hopefully it'll come back after Blizz/Kespa finish their talks xD)
On March 07 2011 13:25 eviltomahawk wrote: I agree with everyone else who says that this is the most logical decision for SC2. Looking at the player roster for WCG 2010, most, if not all, of the non-Korean players are currently playing SC2, and most of the more famous ones, such as Brat_OK and White-Ra, were already playing both SC2 and BW at the time. The total number of competitors that year was 19, which seems to be a shell of former WCGs.
We all watch WCG to see epic games between Koreans (Flash vs JD), epic games between foreigners (Idra vs White-Ra), and games where foreigners somehow scrape by with wins against Koreans (Mondragon vs Savior). Now that all the foreigners have switched, we only get to see complete unknown foreigners play low-level games, Koreans roflstomping them, and maybe Koreans playing some epic games that could've been seen in any other Korean league, assuming that KeSPA even allows their players into WCG.
This is a correct step for WCG. The foreign BW is, unfortunately, completely dead and replaced by SC2. Competitive BW only exists in Korea, and it would be unwise for WCG to cater only to Koreans at this point. The world is playing SC2, but only Korea is playing BW.
Now, I'm only worried about WCG's partnership with Samsung and OGN right now. Since WCG is no longer including BW, I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung pulls all their funding and OGN cancels their broadcasting partnership.
Samsung maybe, but OGN probably not. You have to remember that they sponsor WCG to make money, not to support BW. And even with BW gone, OGN and Samsung will still be making money from the sponsorship.
On March 07 2011 13:25 eviltomahawk wrote: I agree with everyone else who says that this is the most logical decision for SC2. Looking at the player roster for WCG 2010, most, if not all, of the non-Korean players are currently playing SC2, and most of the more famous ones, such as Brat_OK and White-Ra, were already playing both SC2 and BW at the time. The total number of competitors that year was 19, which seems to be a shell of former WCGs.
We all watch WCG to see epic games between Koreans (Flash vs JD), epic games between foreigners (Idra vs White-Ra), and games where foreigners somehow scrape by with wins against Koreans (Mondragon vs Savior). Now that all the foreigners have switched, we only get to see complete unknown foreigners play low-level games, Koreans roflstomping them, and maybe Koreans playing some epic games that could've been seen in any other Korean league, assuming that KeSPA even allows their players into WCG.
This is a correct step for WCG. The foreign BW is, unfortunately, completely dead and replaced by SC2. Competitive BW only exists in Korea, and it would be unwise for WCG to cater only to Koreans at this point. The world is playing SC2, but only Korea is playing BW.
Now, I'm only worried about WCG's partnership with Samsung and OGN right now. Since WCG is no longer including BW, I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung pulls all their funding and OGN cancels their broadcasting partnership.
Samsung maybe, but OGN probably not. You have to remember that they sponsor WCG to make money, not to support BW. And even with BW gone, OGN and Samsung will still be making money from the sponsorship.
True. However, Samsung did state that they don't want to sponsor WCG if it meant advertising Blizzard games, especially considering the state of the Blizzard vs KeSPA talks. OGN technically can't, and won't, broadcast the SC2 and WC3 events due to the lawsuit going on, and without BW, I doubt they will have much of an incentive to broadcast any part of WCG at all. Since Samsung is a big member of KeSPA and a sponsor of a BW team, I wouldn't be surprised if they pull their funding as a message to Blizzard for having the lawsuit in the first place.
i entered the thread with a big smile and turned to sadness as i read the initial post, this was not what i was expecting, ill try and save the hate to myself, and at least hope that this is the right move to help Esports in some way
It's sad that they have dumped BW within a year of SC2 coming out, I was hoping for more of a transition that could show all of the players that are new to RTS or have just started with SC2 that the real skill started off with BW and that SC2 probably wouldn't be as big of a success without it.
I just cannot agree with all of the people who say BW is more fun to watch than SC2, and I have played both competitively and watched both (BW for years, and SC2 since the first videos came out in beta).
SC2 is where the competitive RTS scene is now a days, and Korea will come around as well soon.
Not surprised by this decision at all. I've followed the BW scene since 2007 (still do) and it sucks to see the game removed from WCG. I play SC2 more than BW now, but it's fun to go back to BW now and then to play with friends on old school maps.
I think Starcraft 2 players and fans don't want to see SC2 die, and many are willing to sacrifice SC1 in that sense. It's had its time to shine and arguably will always be the "greatest of all time" from a historical perspective, the same way DOOM and Tetris tend to make those lists.
SC2 players also don't want to feel "second class," the "SC2" is easier stigma. Keep in mind that when Starcraft was as old as SC2 is now, BW wasn't even out yet. While people are worried about protoss death balls right now, SC1 was still working out various abuses like sliding command centers for years.
Also, much <3 to Starcraft 1, it still stands as the most influential game of all time for me. When I first ventured online and realized you could play with people who were far different and better than any computer, but that I could possibly beat them if I got better, what a delicious discovery that was.
WCG is closer to representing e-sports as it really is, just in the way that it is a competition of videogames in general, and not any specific videogame. They have to go with the sequel because it's Blizzard's choice. Until the copyright runs out on a game that's worth playing, it isn't going to change. Here's to hoping SC2 picks up some more merit as it goes along.
On March 07 2011 13:58 Ansinjunger wrote: I think Starcraft 2 players and fans don't want to see SC2 die, and many are willing to sacrifice SC1 in that sense. It's had its time to shine and arguably will always be the "greatest of all time" from a historical perspective, the same way DOOM and Tetris tend to make those lists.
SC2 players also don't want to feel "second class," the "SC2" is easier stigma. Keep in mind that when Starcraft was as old as SC2 is now, BW wasn't even out yet. While people are worried about protoss death balls right now, SC1 was still working out various abuses like sliding command centers for years.
Also, much <3 to Starcraft 1, it still stands as the most influential game of all time for me. When I first ventured online and realized you could play with people who were far different and better than any computer, but that I could possibly beat them if I got better, what a delicious discovery that was.
Considering what was being figured out at the equivalent stage of SC1 is totally crazy to me. Maynarding was named after the actual dude who decided it was a good idea to oversaturate his main and then transfer some probes to his expansion when it came up. And then there was that story Day9 told during Funday Monday about people figuring out that you could make a nexus at another mineral patch and get twice the money. Whoa!
Thinking about Starcraft without that kind of stuff is mind boggling.
Isn't WCG supposed to be at LA this year? I was really looking forward to going to WCG this year since I live in SD so I could watch progamers live................................
On March 07 2011 14:05 ArvickHero wrote: I'm banging my head against the desk right now.
Isn't WCG supposed to be at LA this year? I was really looking forward to going to WCG this year since I live in SD so I could watch progamers live................................
ADFASHGADFGHSDFHBVHBTGWAEASGASD ><
2010 was in LA.
2011 is rumored to be in Busan, S.Korea.
Anyway, not surprising to see BW dropped, but sad, since it was nice to see the koreans steamroll foreigners, and then watch the reps.
hey I am relatively new to TL and competitive starcraft gaming, I regret saying that I have never seen any sc1 live footage of a tournament, I still had some fun times on that game tho but I have moved on to sc2 and have just realized actually how big Esports and the SC world really is. even though i do prefer sc2 over sc1 (competitively) i still say thats this is a sad day to see such a great game being pulled form what looks like a great tournament.
it would be nice if sc1 got like a monument hahah! lolz just saying
The moment I saw the title of this thread, a chill went down my back.
Where is the foreigner BW love? I realize that it is a logical choice from WCG, but still.. This just makes me so unbelievably sad, that as an eighth grade kid who discovered BW only a few years ago, my favorite pasttime and sport to watch no longer has any ties with this "part" of the world.
On March 07 2011 14:05 ArvickHero wrote: I'm banging my head against the desk right now.
Isn't WCG supposed to be at LA this year? I was really looking forward to going to WCG this year since I live in SD so I could watch progamers live................................
ADFASHGADFGHSDFHBVHBTGWAEASGASD ><
2010 was LA. 2011 is rumored to be in Busan, S.Korea.
Anyway, not surprising to see BW dropped, but sad, since it was nice to see the koreans steamroll foreigners, and then watch the reps.
lol........ How did I make that mistake xD
I'm still very sad that there's no more WCG for BW D: no more pro reps is the worst of it.. and a guaranteed matchup between the best players was the best part of WCG BW :\
On March 07 2011 14:05 ArvickHero wrote: I'm banging my head against the desk right now.
Isn't WCG supposed to be at LA this year? I was really looking forward to going to WCG this year since I live in SD so I could watch progamers live................................
ADFASHGADFGHSDFHBVHBTGWAEASGASD ><
2010 was LA. 2011 is rumored to be in Busan, S.Korea.
Anyway, not surprising to see BW dropped, but sad, since it was nice to see the koreans steamroll foreigners, and then watch the reps.
lol........ How did I make that mistake xD
I'm still very sad that there's no more WCG for BW D: no more pro reps is the worst of it.. and a guaranteed matchup between the best players was the best part of WCG BW :\
Best part was waiting for a pro to drop a set. Midas vs Draco was the first time I heard tasteless commentate and it was so sick.
On March 07 2011 14:19 etheovermind wrote: Guys you realize this won't be permanent? Two years down the road, this same post will be made, only in the SC2 section, with BW coming back.
On March 07 2011 14:19 etheovermind wrote: Guys you realize this won't be permanent? Two years down the road, this same post will be made, only in the SC2 section, with BW coming back.
If CS is anything to go by you could very well be right.
On March 07 2011 14:19 etheovermind wrote: Guys you realize this won't be permanent? Two years down the road, this same post will be made, only in the SC2 section, with BW coming back.
If CS is anything to go by you could very well be right.
The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Like anything in the world.... the people with money will decide what will be played. SC2 has 2 expansions and years of development. BW will be back but won't replace SC2 I think Activision/Blizzard might have a say what will be played in our future.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well there's that one that Artosis never got around to ending so Foreigner BW lives.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well OSL/MSL/PL all still count as tournaments... so does ISL.... and all the best koreans didn't switch so I would say they are extremely comparable.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well there's that one that Artosis never got around to ending so Foreigner BW lives.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well there's that one that Artosis never got around to ending so Foreigner BW lives.
ICCup Starleague? While nothing on the scale of current SC2 tournies and even past major BW events a $1,000 prize pool is not totally insignificant.
It is nevertheless true though that most of the players in the tournament were no where near top foreigner level when SC2 came out.
1. Doesn't WCG usually play 2 RTS games? In the past it was SC and WC3? Why not do SC and SC2? Both of them still have bigger scenes than WC3. I suppose WC3 fans would be upset about that but...
2. It's in South Korea this year, isn't it? Uhm.... removing SC from the tournament in the long term is probably a good idea since the gap between foreigners and progamers was already absurdly huge even before most of the top foreigners retired, but doing so this year might be a bad, bad move. They would have a much easier time filling stadiums with Flash and Jaedong. Well... WCG better hope that Boxer, NaDa, and/or July qualify for WCG...
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
haha cause they were smart. 1.6 to CSS == BW to SC2 amirite?
On March 07 2011 11:53 Release wrote: Watching sc2 is so much less exciting than watching sc1. I can see that they chose sc2 because of the more players, but the spectators will suffer. I was hoping for one more year so Jaedong or Flash would make it to the hall of fame.
Which spectators are you talking about? Although i dont have actual evidence of numbers im pretty positive i can say that SC2 has wayyyy more viewers and a much larger fan base in the foreign communities than SC1. Resulting in more people watching stream/attending event which = more money for WCG and higher popularity.
On March 07 2011 11:53 Release wrote: Watching sc2 is so much less exciting than watching sc1. I can see that they chose sc2 because of the more players, but the spectators will suffer. I was hoping for one more year so Jaedong or Flash would make it to the hall of fame.
Which spectators are you talking about? Although i dont have actual evidence of numbers im pretty positive i can say that SC2 has wayyyy more viewers and a much larger fan base in the foreign communities than SC1. Resulting in more people watching stream/attending event which = more money for WCG and higher popularity.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well OSL/MSL/PL all still count as tournaments... so does ISL.... and all the best koreans didn't switch so I would say they are extremely comparable.
OSL/MSL/PL are korean events, ISL is an online only tournament
I am specifically referring to the foreigner scene in that post, of course BW is still going strong in South Korea. But WCG is a worldwide event and the non korean interest in BW is just lacking, sponsors have no incentive to fund BW tournaments especially now that SC2 is released. When SC2 was announced there was somewhat of a resurgence in the foreign scene, with TSL, dreamhack and some zotac cups but basically every good nonkorean/non chinese skilled player has left the scene
Its just naive to assume that WCG will add BW again, honestly I would be surprised if they did. Last years WCG had an incredibly poor turnout in terms of spectators and players which doesn't sit well with sponsors at all - and without sponsors you simply cannot have a tournament
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well OSL/MSL/PL all still count as tournaments... so does ISL.... and all the best koreans didn't switch so I would say they are extremely comparable.
Yeah, but it's pretty pointless to have a game of only regional mainstream appeal and prowess in the World Cyber Games. It would be like putting Australian rules football or American football in the Olympics. It would be a laughable concept, IMO.
The games will be sorely missed. The fact that the Korean's played so relaxed produced some SICK games when they faced off. Can't say I didn't see this coming though....ah well.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well OSL/MSL/PL all still count as tournaments... so does ISL.... and all the best koreans didn't switch so I would say they are extremely comparable.
OSL/MSL/PL are korean events, ISL is an online only tournament
I am specifically referring to the foreigner scene in that post, of course BW is still going strong in South Korea. But WCG is a worldwide event and the non korean interest in BW is just lacking, sponsors have no incentive to fund BW tournaments especially now that SC2 is released. When SC2 was announced there was somewhat of a resurgence in the foreign scene, with TSL, dreamhack and some zotac cups but basically every good nonkorean/non chinese skilled player has left the scene
Its just naive to assume that WCG will add BW again, honestly I would be surprised if they did. Last years WCG had an incredibly poor turnout in terms of spectators and players which doesn't sit well with sponsors at all - and without sponsors you simply cannot have a tournament
Why do people act like korean tournaments don't count? In terms of viewers total I would imagine that BW still has more views worldwide because of how many views they get from S.Korea.
imo getting rid of SCBW isn't really surprising seeing as how its pretty much a complete smackdown by the koreans the past few years. Even watching the USA qualifiers it was pretty obvious that there was only a small handful who even prepared and that the rest had been playing evidentially more SC2 than BW.
Glad to see they decided to add SC2 though as opposed to scrap SC all together.
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well OSL/MSL/PL all still count as tournaments... so does ISL.... and all the best koreans didn't switch so I would say they are extremely comparable.
OSL/MSL/PL are korean events, ISL is an online only tournament
I am specifically referring to the foreigner scene in that post, of course BW is still going strong in South Korea. But WCG is a worldwide event and the non korean interest in BW is just lacking, sponsors have no incentive to fund BW tournaments especially now that SC2 is released. When SC2 was announced there was somewhat of a resurgence in the foreign scene, with TSL, dreamhack and some zotac cups but basically every good nonkorean/non chinese skilled player has left the scene
Its just naive to assume that WCG will add BW again, honestly I would be surprised if they did. Last years WCG had an incredibly poor turnout in terms of spectators and players which doesn't sit well with sponsors at all - and without sponsors you simply cannot have a tournament
Why do people act like korean tournaments don't count? In terms of viewers total I would imagine that BW still has more views worldwide because of how many views they get from S.Korea.
Because its the World Cyber Games? You represent your country in WCG. What good is representing your country if hardly anyone outside Korea is even interested? Koreans don't even care that much about WCG... they televised the WCG Korea qualifiers but thats more of an exhibition match type of thing than anything, WCG doesn't carry much prestige in Korea. It doesn't make sense to have a game that has very little interest on an international level just because one country in the world has a huge interest in it
BW was dropped because it is not popular enough outside of South Korea to warrant showcasing it at an international event such as WCG
On March 07 2011 14:26 hazz. wrote: The situation of 1.6/css and bw/sc2 aren't even comparable.
hardly any 1.6 players switched over and there were hardly any source tournaments but there were still a ton of 1.6 tournaments. almost the whole foreigner scene either retired or switched to Sc2 when it was released and there are now no foreign tournaments for BW
Well OSL/MSL/PL all still count as tournaments... so does ISL.... and all the best koreans didn't switch so I would say they are extremely comparable.
OSL/MSL/PL are korean events, ISL is an online only tournament
I am specifically referring to the foreigner scene in that post, of course BW is still going strong in South Korea. But WCG is a worldwide event and the non korean interest in BW is just lacking, sponsors have no incentive to fund BW tournaments especially now that SC2 is released. When SC2 was announced there was somewhat of a resurgence in the foreign scene, with TSL, dreamhack and some zotac cups but basically every good nonkorean/non chinese skilled player has left the scene
Its just naive to assume that WCG will add BW again, honestly I would be surprised if they did. Last years WCG had an incredibly poor turnout in terms of spectators and players which doesn't sit well with sponsors at all - and without sponsors you simply cannot have a tournament
Why do people act like korean tournaments don't count? In terms of viewers total I would imagine that BW still has more views worldwide because of how many views they get from S.Korea.
Though the Korean tournaments still are going strong, it doesn't hide the fact that there are almost no non-Korean BW tournaments nowadays. Dreamhack and Assembly have both switched to SC2. TSL switched to SC2. Regional WCG events used to be the biggest non-Korean BW LANs, but with WCG now switching to SC2, they will most likely now be SC2 events.
The fact is that the rest of the world has switched over to SC2 competitively, and this is evident in the huge number of non-Korean SC2 events whereas there are almost no non-Korean BW events. BW surviving in Korea doesn't guarantee BW surviving in the rest of the world, and should foreign pros switch back to BW, the foreign BW scene would be only a pitiful shell of its former self.
I wonder if they removed WC3 from the line up too. If WC3 and BW were replaced by SC2 and LoL, I will honestly have no reason to watch WCG. It will be a hollow tournament.
because WCG has always been considered a minor tournament for BW, its overshadowed by OSL and MSL, whereas WCG has always been the #1 tournament for Warcraft 3. Also WarCraft 3 desperately needs any tournament it can get..
This kind've makes me sad. I never really got into the BW scene, but I'm really into SC2 now, and have started watching more BW in addition. I think the BW scene is really awesome, so it's sad to see it fading now that I've finally discovered it.
I think BW will never die, and there will always be tourneys out there for it, but WCG wants to grow their fanbase around the world. To do so, they felt they needed to cut out BW, which is a onesided rofl-stomp that generally discourages international participation in WCG. I can see the logic in their decision, and I'm glad I got to watch the LAST WCG finals that included SC:BW. I hold out no hope that they'll reverse this decision.
edit: Sure, BW is being somewhat supplanted by SC2 here, but I don't think it's anything about SC2. BW would fade away without foreigners ever wanting to pick it up and play it if SC2 doesn't exist anyway. I just think WCG wants to make their entire grand final experience more "international" and having BW in the tourney is just not conducive to that. Doesn't really mean BW is dieing.
On March 07 2011 14:55 Chimpalimp wrote: I wonder if they removed WC3 from the line up too. If WC3 and BW were replaced by SC2 and LoL, I will honestly have no reason to watch WCG. It will be a hollow tournament.
The article mentioned that WC3 remains in the line-up. Don't worry.
I know there's a lot of people who are still into BW but if you do a side-by-side comparison with the *international* SC2 fans, then they're most likely outnumbered. While Koreans dominate BW, I think foreigners have a better chance in competiting with Korea in SC2.
I'm glad to see that at least SC2 will be in the line-up, but what happened to the whole "samsung to pull all blizzard games from WCG" thing? Surely it couldn't already be resolved?
On March 07 2011 15:17 HeIios wrote: I'm glad to see that at least SC2 will be in the line-up, but what happened to the whole "samsung to pull all blizzard games from WCG" thing? Surely it couldn't already be resolved?
Samsung said that they would pull funding and sponsorship if WCG decided to include Blizzard games.
Now, we just need to wait to hear about Samsung's response, which probably won't be good. I expect them to pull their sponsorship while WCG attempts to find another sponsor.
On March 07 2011 15:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: This kind've makes me sad. I never really got into the BW scene, but I'm really into SC2 now, and have started watching more BW in addition. I think the BW scene is really awesome, so it's sad to see it fading now that I've finally discovered it.
Exactly my thoughts. I wish I would've been here before the SC2 release.
On March 07 2011 11:49 HKriceboy88 wrote: I'm sad, but i guess this was bound to happen one day. No more auto 1,2,3 finishes for Korea. =[
... what was the IEM finishes again?
Here's hoping that Ret, Jinro, and Huk represent Netherlands, Sweden, and Canada respectively. It would be a disservice if they had to qualify with the Koreans.
On March 07 2011 11:49 HKriceboy88 wrote: I'm sad, but i guess this was bound to happen one day. No more auto 1,2,3 finishes for Korea. =[
... what was the IEM finishes again?
What were the Dreamhack finishes again?
what were the last 2 GSl finishes again
1 korean playing godly this season 2. korean who scrubbed the finals 3. jinro 4. korean who didn't deserve to get this far and got wrecked in semis
and how many Koreans are there in GSL compared to foreigners? Koreans arent unbeatable in sc2, for some reason people seem to be implying they are untouchable like they were in BW
Completly makes sense. I mean Starcraft is awesome and all, but the foreign scene is getting smaller and smaller and in the meanwhile Starcraft 2 and other games are getting bigger and bigger.
Aw... I was kinda hoping they'd give it one more year, for old times' sake at least! Announcing "this is the last year of sc1" woulda been classier imo...
Koreans are better than foreigners currently so i fully expect WCG to be won by a Korean and probably second place. There's no reason to argue, all foreign players that went on the Korean server admitted the top of the Korean scene is a little better than the top of the foreign scene, one of the reasons is the fact that the Korean scene has a larger talent pool since they have a lot of good players and ofc, the practice regime(although there are some really dedicated foreign players, the way the Koreans practice appears to be the most effective).
anyway, how do foreigners rank in sc2? i imagine it'll definitely be closer in terms of skill, but can we expect to see a foreigner win the WCG with sc2? or is it going to be like 1st 2nd 3rd korea again? i think i read jinro is pretty good.. i have no clue with sc2 haha maybe i should try watching it again
this is retarded.. what does it matter if many foreigners don't play bw anymore?? the game still has plenty of fans, including foreigners, outside of south korea. who cares if a korean will win wcg again? or that many foreigners don't play bw anymore?? the foreigner fan database for bw is still huge! almost all of us on this site are foreigners.. how can you say this makes sense?? even if there aren't "many" foreigners competing in wcg bw, many of the spectators at wcg will still comprise of foreigners..
On March 07 2011 15:54 a7choi wrote: this is retarded.. what does it matter if many foreigners don't play bw anymore?? the game still has plenty of fans, including foreigners, outside of south korea. who cares if a korean will win wcg again? or that many foreigners don't play bw anymore?? the foreigner fan database for bw is still huge! almost all of us on this site are foreigners.. how can you say this makes sense?? even if there aren't "many" foreigners competing in wcg bw, many of the spectators at wcg will still comprise of foreigners..
The analogy on the previous page was good-ish although modified a bit.... It would be pretty similar to putting American Football in the Olympics. Nobody actually plays it outside of USA, competitively... Given that WCG is the Olympics of gaming, it doesn't really make sense to have a game there which can only be competitive for Korean players. For those saying that SC2 is still Korean dominated, it is, but at least it has foreigners competing at the top level (Jinro, Idra, HuK, etc.) as opposed to BW nowadays.
lol you beat me to it. That was my exact response to such a message.
What the fuck... I don't hate Starcraft 2, but it makes me kind of mad that Brood War is dying faster and faster in the non Korean community. I think eventually I will be forced to play only Starcraft 2, but my heart is still with Brood War.
On March 07 2011 15:48 imperfect wrote: ah well it's not completely unexpected.
anyway, how do foreigners rank in sc2? i imagine it'll definitely be closer in terms of skill, but can we expect to see a foreigner win the WCG with sc2? or is it going to be like 1st 2nd 3rd korea again? i think i read jinro is pretty good.. i have no clue with sc2 haha maybe i should try watching it again
My opinion though pretty agreed upon (until protoss)
Best of Terran: 1. IM_MVP (korean) 2. PRIME_MKP (korean)LIQUID_Jinro(swedish) 3. ST_Bomber (korean)
Best of Zerg: 1. IM_Nestea (korean) 2. EG_Idra(american) ZENEX_Kyrix(korean) ST_July(God of War)
Best of Protoss: 1. OGS_MC(korean) 2. ST_Squirtle(korean) 3. ZENITH_San(korean)LIQUID_Huk (Canadian)
note; sanzenith ONLY based on this gsl, he would be listed in possibly one of the worst pro gamers ever pre this GSL.
and thats solely based on the GSL, liquid tyler could definitely compete with them, similarly Whitera(when he is practicing) alot of Mouzsports, and machine (until he runs into incontrol as is inevitable in every event ever)
EDIT: a huge advantage foreigners have is the korean players are super stylistic. very few are very adaptable and have a ton of strategies, those that DO, tend to be weaker at everything than those who are stylistic.
MKP uses bio better than everyone, but it's all he can really do amazingly. MVP is good at pretty much everything but has a limited number of openers. Kyrix and july are both best when hyper agressive. MC has his typical 2 base play he is best at and then his skill drops off a bit (except 4 gate vs P). Nestea has two paths he can take that both end the same tech tree, and thats all he has.
meanwhile the foreigners have a bunch of different strategies (except IdrA) and can perform them pretty much all very well. making it harder to prepare for them than for the koreans.
On March 07 2011 12:12 G3nXsiS wrote: Good choice from WCG. I have said this before and will say it again. BW is past its prime, it needs to die and make way for starcraft 2.
Blasphemy! Without scbw, there is no sc2 existing today. Kids these days... Not including scbw in WCG is logical, since foreigners cant compete with them, but saying it needs to die is stupid and wrong.
why do you guys treat BW as if its going to disappear forever? They don't call it e-sports for nothing. Treat it like a real sport. Football and baseball have been around since the beginning of dirt and are still popular. Why shouldn't starcraft I continue like them in Korea?
Well played by WCG, they are able to do this in spite of rumours of all blizzard games taken down due to sponsorship. I hope WC3 gets to be in the program and at which point it'll be interesting to see whether Grubby will go back and go for a title shot
On March 07 2011 11:49 HKriceboy88 wrote: I'm sad, but i guess this was bound to happen one day. No more auto 1,2,3 finishes for Korea. =[
... what was the IEM finishes again?
What were the Dreamhack finishes again?
what were the last 2 GSl finishes again
1 korean playing godly this season 2. korean who scrubbed the finals 3. jinro 4. korean who didn't deserve to get this far and got wrecked in semis
and how many Koreans are there in GSL compared to foreigners? Koreans arent unbeatable in sc2, for some reason people seem to be implying they are untouchable like they were in BW
It was exactly like this when BW became popular. We got foreigner champions for a while, and then Koreans started to dominate left and right. Like any other individual sports, dedication plays a huge role in a player's success. How many foreigners do you think are going to spend 14 hours a day just to practice on a video game? Compute your figure and multiplies it by a million and you'll get the number for Koreans.
All the successful foreign SC2 players nowadays are Korean influenced. Idra got his good foundation from practicing BW with a Korean team. Jinro and Huk succeeded because they have been training with the Koreans.
I'd say in about 2 or 3 years, assuming that SC2 is widely accepted by the Korean community like how BW was, Korean players will start their reign of domination again and there's nothing we can do about it.
Well, hard to argue against this one. BW's been on for ages and it's time to give room to new games. A little part of me still died with this news x_x GG SCBW
How the fuck did this turn into another one of the "bw is dead!!! time for ____ to transfer to SC2!!!" threads? its not like WCG was the epitome of bw, it was just koreans having showmatches with foreigners.
linking bw threads in community news always results in the same way -_-'
On March 07 2011 11:56 Antoine wrote: On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
Counter Strike 1.6->CS:S->CS 1.6.
It can happen if SC2 dies out.
Technically, it was CS 1.6* -> CS: condition zero -> CS:S -> CS 1.6
*: Could have been CS 1.5, I'm not 100% sure on the timeline.
Foreign BW is officially dead, not BW in general. SC2 in Korea is unsustainable, even with the huge prize pools there's no top BW players that have switched to SC2, viewership is lower than BW's as evidenced by the finals being mostly empty, etc. With NASL and MLG coming up to distract foreign audiences I don't see the GSL lasting too much longer.
I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
Why are people saying the end of BW is the end of competitive Starcraft as a whole? By the time BW becomes less profitable for Korean pro-gamers in Korea, I suspect SC2 will have been patched and established globally to warrant a transfer of at least a significant portion of old pros. Not to mention new pro-gamers will skip BW and cut their teeth on SC2.
In terms of viewership, I would expect the viewership in Korea to be lower for SC2 then BW since one has been out for less then a year and the other has had years upon years to refine and establish themselves. But even barring that fact, viewers cant follow both at the exact same time, so attention will likely be split anyway.
I suspect some Korean pros will retire/go to army, but many will also transfer over since all their hard work in BW will pay off still in SC2 with their pure mechanical skills. Especially since now they have an entire world of leagues to play in with a disproportionate amount of raw talent in their favor. Fish in a barrel for some time to come.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
It had to happen, good things get replaced, like how Cata replaced WoW Vanilla and such.
Shame that they won't be able to bring Starcraft to foreign stages through WCG anymore, but it being done through OGN like Korean Air OSL S2 Final in China is possible.
It's okay, BW remains top quality in its current form.
The question now is... how long will Starcraft 2 last? With IEM, MLG, GSL, and upcoming NASL, who's going to bother? What kind of incentive do they have for gamers to practice for it over the aforementioned tournaments? Will it be what BlizzCon was for BW? This will be interesting, cause honestly right now SC2 is swamped with tournaments everywhere.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
I'm probably feeding this troll but,shitting on more than half of TL's population by calling SC2 failgame will get you banned.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
I'm flame-baiting this thread? Fuck that. SC2 players comming here saying ppl should abandon BW blah blah blah, they're the ones failbaiting this thread.
I'm just saying it how it is, this is in the Brood War forum, if they don't want to read, they can simply go back to their fucking forums.
Every thread I see in the BW section is spammed by them faggots going "YAY WE WANT BW TO DIE".
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
I'm flame-baiting this thread? Fuck that. SC2 players comming here saying ppl should abandon BW blah blah blah, they're the ones failbaiting this thread.
I'm just saying it how it is, this is in the Brood War forum, if they don't want to read, they can simply go back to their fucking forums.
Every thread I see in the BW section is spammed by them faggots going "YAY WE WANT BW TO DIE".
It is also in the Community News, so therefore, it's not us SC2 fans flaming BW players. Most of the TL.net community does read the Community News section.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
I'm flame-baiting this thread? Fuck that. SC2 players comming here saying ppl should abandon BW blah blah blah, they're the ones failbaiting this thread.
I'm just saying it how it is, this is in the Brood War forum, if they don't want to read, they can simply go back to their fucking forums.
Every thread I see in the BW section is spammed by them faggots going "YAY WE WANT BW TO DIE".
take a chill pill,and this thread is on the TL community forum too not just the BW forum,because it involves both games.
On March 07 2011 17:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Why are people saying the end of BW is the end of competitive Starcraft as a whole? By the time BW becomes less profitable for Korean pro-gamers in Korea, I suspect SC2 will have been patched and established globally to warrant a transfer of at least a significant portion of old pros. Not to mention new pro-gamers will skip BW and cut their teeth on SC2.
In terms of viewership, I would expect the viewership in Korea to be lower for SC2 then BW since one has been out for less then a year and the other has had years upon years to refine and establish themselves. But even barring that fact, viewers cant follow both at the exact same time, so attention will likely be split anyway.
I suspect some Korean pros will retire/go to army, but many will also transfer over since all their hard work in BW will pay off still in SC2 with their pure mechanical skills. Especially since now they have an entire world of leagues to play in with a disproportionate amount of raw talent in their favor. Fish in a barrel for some time to come.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
Nah, It has it's merits but he should have removed the 'failgame2' statement so that we can take it seriously.
On March 07 2011 17:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Why are people saying the end of BW is the end of competitive Starcraft as a whole? By the time BW becomes less profitable for Korean pro-gamers in Korea, I suspect SC2 will have been patched and established globally to warrant a transfer of at least a significant portion of old pros. Not to mention new pro-gamers will skip BW and cut their teeth on SC2.
In terms of viewership, I would expect the viewership in Korea to be lower for SC2 then BW since one has been out for less then a year and the other has had years upon years to refine and establish themselves. But even barring that fact, viewers cant follow both at the exact same time, so attention will likely be split anyway.
I suspect some Korean pros will retire/go to army, but many will also transfer over since all their hard work in BW will pay off still in SC2 with their pure mechanical skills. Especially since now they have an entire world of leagues to play in with a disproportionate amount of raw talent in their favor. Fish in a barrel for some time to come.
So tired of this kind of "logic".
YES THIS SERIOUSLY NEEDS TO STOP! It's getting on the nerves!. If banlings could (I doubt but I'm still hopeful and thankful for them) just warn/temp banned shitty logic like the bolded statement. Flame wars can really be averted.
Also, I don't really care if a bunch of starcraft 2 fans getting butthurt over what I said. Sick of seeing their BS, they dont even say anything that makes sense, just "Go SC2, Brood War Gonna Die" "Its not about fun/playability, its all about the money".
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
Nah, It has it's merits but he should have removed the 'failgame2' statement so that we can take it seriously.
Its still a terrible post, and makes us bw fans look bad.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
Nah, It has it's merits but he should have removed the 'failgame2' statement so that we can take it seriously.
Its still a terrible post, and makes us bw fans look bad.
it is a terrible post, but it does have a point, I could modify it.
really wish they could of kept both BW and sc2. I thought they were going to kill off BW for a year since wcg is in korea this year, not kill it off entirely.
On March 07 2011 17:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Why are people saying the end of BW is the end of competitive Starcraft as a whole? By the time BW becomes less profitable for Korean pro-gamers in Korea, I suspect SC2 will have been patched and established globally to warrant a transfer of at least a significant portion of old pros. Not to mention new pro-gamers will skip BW and cut their teeth on SC2.
In terms of viewership, I would expect the viewership in Korea to be lower for SC2 then BW since one has been out for less then a year and the other has had years upon years to refine and establish themselves. But even barring that fact, viewers cant follow both at the exact same time, so attention will likely be split anyway.
I suspect some Korean pros will retire/go to army, but many will also transfer over since all their hard work in BW will pay off still in SC2 with their pure mechanical skills. Especially since now they have an entire world of leagues to play in with a disproportionate amount of raw talent in their favor. Fish in a barrel for some time to come.
So tired of this kind of "logic".
If its wrong I'll edit it out. But It seems pretty sound to me. Brood War has had 12 years of game sales and patches, as well as organizations and tournaments to iron out the issues and advertise the e-sport. 12 years to convince companies to subsidize and invest in teams and tournament series as well as create player legacies and histories.
Those are big shoes to fill for SC2 to do in less than one year. Pros who were accustomed to Brood War and had high mechanical skill were able to nit pick every bug and exploit in the game early on as well as play around with the game pre-release. We didn't have that for pre-Brood War and had to ramp up to your top tier gamers.
It is arguably inevitable that SC2 would have fallen short of expectations. I do not understand how viewers/players could expect the jump to be linear from BW to SC2. The polarized community didn't help either....
On March 07 2011 11:49 HKriceboy88 wrote: I'm sad, but i guess this was bound to happen one day. No more auto 1,2,3 finishes for Korea. =[
what makes you think korea won't take 123 in sc2?
Happened at IEM where Koreans dominated a decent, but not strong western field.
I don't see why it couldn't happen again at WCG.
With WCG being more of a global tournament I can understand why they switched from BW to SC2. SC2 is catching on day by day in the western world for both competitive and casual gamers, whereas BW was left just for the hardcore gamers.
It's sad to see the change, but it was one that was necessary.
How was IEM a decent field foreign wise? Id call it strong.
Meanwhile the Koreans ALL lost round ONE of Code A. So yeah, Korea 1-2-3 could happen.
Banned Eywa for his inability to argue without calling people faggots.
Saw this coming, but I'm glad they went with SC2 at least instead of no Starcraft at all. Now that would suck. I wonder if they're going to be able to broadcast SC2 this year because of the whole Korea-WCG-Blizzard-Samsung thing.
On March 07 2011 17:14 Eywa- wrote: I don't know why people even associate failgame2 to Starcraft:Brood War, Just because they have the same name and Blizzard calls it a sequal doesn't mean they should be associated. Shoulda been called Warcraft in Space. Also I love how so many failgame2 fans post here saying BW IS DEAD!! MOVE TO SC2!!! We don't spam ur shit. And for the reccord, Brood War has always been a mostly Korean E-Sport, so even if the Internationnal Brood War fails, Brood War lives on. Only people who transfer from Brood War to SC2 are a) Lazy b) Bad c) Going for the cash(and not quality of the game).
You just flame-baiting this thread...
Nah, It has it's merits but he should have removed the 'failgame2' statement so that we can take it seriously.
Its still a terrible post, and makes us bw fans look bad.
it is a terrible post, but it does have a point, I could modify it.
to be fair every time any thread comes up about a player switching to SC2 from BW or anything about a transition from BW -> SC2 in any way using anything or anything about the lawsuit is brought up in the sc2 forums all they have to read is a bunch of flamers from the BW section about how sc2 takes no skill/is bad ect ect. that just fuels more antagonism. if you don't want to see SC2 players flame BW then stop giving them a reason to, stop posting how you hope sc2 dies or you want kespa to win the lawsuit ect ect instead talk about how you want BW to continue and how awesome proleague truly is and how you don't find starcraft2 as entertaining as BW because of the awesomeness in BW ect.
it needs to stop from both sides if we want to get our boards less divided and more like pre sc2 times.
EDIT: @ jinro alot of NA players don't follow europe as much and so IEM seemed like a few of the big names and then a bunch of random euros + koreans to them, i know i haven't actually seen games of more than half of the foreign IEM field personally.
not that the view is correct but just explaining the view.
On March 07 2011 17:04 jalstar wrote: Foreign BW is officially dead, not BW in general. SC2 in Korea is unsustainable, even with the huge prize pools there's no top BW players that have switched to SC2, viewership is lower than BW's as evidenced by the finals being mostly empty, etc. With NASL and MLG coming up to distract foreign audiences I don't see the GSL lasting too much longer.
Finals being empty is a huge lie =/ They pretty much filled the arena they used for GSL3, I wasnt at GSL 4 finals so I couldnt tell you how that one went tho.
He has a bit of a point though, it's getting really annoying going through this kind of thread or ForGG/HoGiL/matchfixers thread and having people go omg switch to SC2/Flash and Jaedong should switch now etc.
If you really were their fans you'd support them for the game they play.
Are people really that desperate for them to switch? Isn't MVP/Sangho/Nada/Boxer/Tester/Iron/July enough? How many gamers do you want to support lol ><
On March 07 2011 17:42 IntoTheEmo wrote: He has a bit of a point though, it's getting really annoying going through this kind of thread or ForGG/HoGiL/matchfixers thread and having people go omg switch to SC2/Flash and Jaedong should switch now etc.
If you really were their fans you'd support them for the game they play.
Are people really that desperate for them to switch? Isn't MVP/Sangho/Nada/Boxer/Tester/Iron enough? How many gamers do you want to support lol ><
Its not an insult to BW to say you hope they switch, its because I think almost anyone who has seem them in BW want to see what they could do with SC2.
On March 07 2011 17:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Why are people saying the end of BW is the end of competitive Starcraft as a whole? By the time BW becomes less profitable for Korean pro-gamers in Korea, I suspect SC2 will have been patched and established globally to warrant a transfer of at least a significant portion of old pros. Not to mention new pro-gamers will skip BW and cut their teeth on SC2.
In terms of viewership, I would expect the viewership in Korea to be lower for SC2 then BW since one has been out for less then a year and the other has had years upon years to refine and establish themselves. But even barring that fact, viewers cant follow both at the exact same time, so attention will likely be split anyway.
I suspect some Korean pros will retire/go to army, but many will also transfer over since all their hard work in BW will pay off still in SC2 with their pure mechanical skills. Especially since now they have an entire world of leagues to play in with a disproportionate amount of raw talent in their favor. Fish in a barrel for some time to come.
So tired of this kind of "logic".
If its wrong I'll edit it out. But It seems pretty sound to me. Brood War has had 12 years of game sales and patches, as well as organizations and tournaments to iron out the issues and advertise the e-sport. 12 years to convince companies to subsidize and invest in teams as well as tournament series as well as create player legacies and histories.
Those are big shoes to fill for SC2 to do in less than one year. Pros who were accustomed to Brood War and had high mechanical skill were able to nit pick every bug and exploit in the game early on as well as play around with the game pre-release. We didn't have that for pre-Brood War and had to ramp up to your top tier gamers.
It is arguably inevitable that SC2 would have fallen short of expectations. I do not understand how viewers/players could expect the jump to be linear from BW to SC2. The polarized community didn't help either....
It's not sound .. why??
1.) Mainly because BW is a Korean Scene. Foreigners still can try to compete but they don't have the work ethics or to do what these Progamers have been doing for years, add that to the coaching staff they have. Mondi, Draco, White-Ra, Ret, Idra, etc.,. All of these guys had their chance these guys can beat low teir progamers back 2009 and before. Like for Ssak and Classic beat Flash in the last SLs(Ssak and Classic = foreigners, Flash=Low teir progamer ).
2.) In Korea, If I don't have to be biased, the quantity of viewers still sides with BW because the scene is homegrown. It was not forced. Hell, even Giyom is accepted as a Pillar of SC:BW proscene up until now. People of all ages can understand what is happening in the game.
3.) BIG Korean Corporations and the Ministry of Culture backs the BW Proscene. How can you say its dead/needs to die?
to add ..
4.) Players of these proteams have salaries over $100,000. Do you see any games having their players have these large salaries and that are backed by big corporations? Players has a celebrity status. How can you say it needs to die?
On March 07 2011 17:42 IntoTheEmo wrote: He has a bit of a point though, it's getting really annoying going through this kind of thread or ForGG/HoGiL/matchfixers thread and having people go omg switch to SC2/Flash and Jaedong should switch now etc.
If you really were their fans you'd support them for the game they play.
Are people really that desperate for them to switch? Isn't MVP/Sangho/Nada/Boxer/Tester/Iron enough? How many gamers do you want to support lol ><
Its not an insult to BW to say you hope they switch, its because I think almost anyone who has seem them in BW want to see what they could do with SC2.
What he said. If you think it's insulting BW for SC2 fans to want the best BW players to switch, imagine how insulting it feels to come into a thread about BW being dropped in favor of SC2 and seeing a bunch of BW fans talking about how it sucks they're switching to an inferior game, how WCG is now worthless, etc. I'm not saying that they're right about it being insulting--I can understand how it would feel to be in the BW fan's position--but by the same token, try to understand why they might think "BW is greater than SC2 will ever be" might not be something an SC2 fan would be overjoyed to read.
On March 07 2011 17:42 IntoTheEmo wrote: He has a bit of a point though, it's getting really annoying going through this kind of thread or ForGG/HoGiL/matchfixers thread and having people go omg switch to SC2/Flash and Jaedong should switch now etc.
If you really were their fans you'd support them for the game they play.
Are people really that desperate for them to switch? Isn't MVP/Sangho/Nada/Boxer/Tester/Iron enough? How many gamers do you want to support lol ><
Its not an insult to BW to say you hope they switch, its because I think almost anyone who has seem them in BW want to see what they could do with SC2.
Yeah, that's true, it's not an insult, but it's really getting repetitive.
But yeah as an example just 1 page back there's some guy saying it's time for Flash and Jaedong to switch cause WCG dropped BW. Bit unreasonable don't you think? :\
On March 07 2011 17:42 IntoTheEmo wrote: He has a bit of a point though, it's getting really annoying going through this kind of thread or ForGG/HoGiL/matchfixers thread and having people go omg switch to SC2/Flash and Jaedong should switch now etc.
If you really were their fans you'd support them for the game they play.
Are people really that desperate for them to switch? Isn't MVP/Sangho/Nada/Boxer/Tester/Iron enough? How many gamers do you want to support lol ><
Its not an insult to BW to say you hope they switch, its because I think almost anyone who has seem them in BW want to see what they could do with SC2.
Yeah, that's true, it's not an insult, but it's really getting repetitive.
But yeah as an example just 1 page back there's some guy saying it's time for Flash and Jaedong to switch cause WCG dropped BW. Bit unreasonable don't you think? :\
I think thats just sc2 fanboy dreaming but yeah, its pretty unrealistic/unreasonable and repetitive. lolwut
Well this isn't entirely unexpected. It's supposed to be a worldwide competition but the professional bw scene outside Korea is basically dead. I'm sad to see bw removed from such a high profile competition but it's not like there's a shortage of bw anyways so I won't be affected by this too much.
I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
On March 07 2011 17:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Why are people saying the end of BW is the end of competitive Starcraft as a whole? By the time BW becomes less profitable for Korean pro-gamers in Korea, I suspect SC2 will have been patched and established globally to warrant a transfer of at least a significant portion of old pros. Not to mention new pro-gamers will skip BW and cut their teeth on SC2.
In terms of viewership, I would expect the viewership in Korea to be lower for SC2 then BW since one has been out for less then a year and the other has had years upon years to refine and establish themselves. But even barring that fact, viewers cant follow both at the exact same time, so attention will likely be split anyway.
I suspect some Korean pros will retire/go to army, but many will also transfer over since all their hard work in BW will pay off still in SC2 with their pure mechanical skills. Especially since now they have an entire world of leagues to play in with a disproportionate amount of raw talent in their favor. Fish in a barrel for some time to come.
So tired of this kind of "logic".
If its wrong I'll edit it out. But It seems pretty sound to me. Brood War has had 12 years of game sales and patches, as well as organizations and tournaments to iron out the issues and advertise the e-sport. 12 years to convince companies to subsidize and invest in teams as well as tournament series as well as create player legacies and histories.
Those are big shoes to fill for SC2 to do in less than one year. Pros who were accustomed to Brood War and had high mechanical skill were able to nit pick every bug and exploit in the game early on as well as play around with the game pre-release. We didn't have that for pre-Brood War and had to ramp up to your top tier gamers.
It is arguably inevitable that SC2 would have fallen short of expectations. I do not understand how viewers/players could expect the jump to be linear from BW to SC2. The polarized community didn't help either....
It's not sound .. why??
1.) Mainly because BW is a Korean Scene. Foreigners still can try to compete but they don't have the work ethics or to do what these Progamers have been doing for years, add that to the coaching staff they have. Mondi, Draco, White-Ra, Ret, Idra, etc.,. All of these guys had their chance these guys can beat low teir progamers back 2009 and before. Like for Ssak and Classic beat Flash in the last SLs(Ssak and Classic = foreigners, Flash=Low teir progamer ).
2.) In Korea, If I don't have to be biased, the quantity of viewers still sides with BW because the scene is homegrown. It was not forced. Hell, even Giyom is accepted as a Pillar of SC:BW proscene up until now. People of all ages can understand what is happening in the game.
3.) BIG Korean Corporations and the Ministry of Culture backs the BW Proscene. How can you say its dead/needs to die?
to add ..
4.) Players of these proteams have salaries over $100,000. Do you see any games having their players have these large salaries and that are backed by big corporations? Players has a celebrity status. How can you say it needs to die?
I never once said BW is dead. I never once said BW needs to die. And I think you just reworded/explicated my post but spun it around on me, could be wrong though.
My whole thing was that BW is and will be strong in Korea for some time to come. My opinion on the reason for the skill gap between Korea and foreigner is actually based around the team house foundation in Korea. But there will come a time, where either BW loses popularity over time just due to old age, and/or SC2 becomes far more profitable for investors and tournament organizers alike. I could be entirely wrong, but do you honestly see ANY video game, e-sport or not, surviving 12+, 15+ or 20+ years where the original developer has ended support and is constantly bombarded by competition, least of which is its own sequel?
There will come a time where you can play a BW clone with better graphics and support on your mobile phone. Will the pro scene still be as strong then? I can understand your plight with the emotional investment and loyalty you have given to 12 years of Brood War. But Brood War was never designed to be e-sport friendly. It will last longer in Korea then anywhere else to be sure, but I do not think it is some immortal game that will last forever, nor is SC2 in all honesty. But SC2 was designed with esports and longevity in mind so while it is still flawed in many respects, there is still time to iron it all out.
yeh not suprised cant have a tourney where the is only Korean players who even play the game, even last wcg was pretty much sc2 players playign the game outside the korean players
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
On March 07 2011 12:39 ReaperX wrote: A very obvious choice to take for the future of the WCG. IMO I actually like to watch SC2 over SC1.
yes an obvious and good choice. tbh i didn't mind bw in wcg, i just wanted sc2 to be in it. if getting in sc2 means to get rid of bw, then so be it goodbye bw, hello sc2
On March 07 2011 17:04 jalstar wrote: Foreign BW is officially dead, not BW in general. SC2 in Korea is unsustainable, even with the huge prize pools there's no top BW players that have switched to SC2, viewership is lower than BW's as evidenced by the finals being mostly empty, etc. With NASL and MLG coming up to distract foreign audiences I don't see the GSL lasting too much longer.
Finals being empty is a huge lie =/ They pretty much filled the arena they used for GSL3, I wasnt at GSL 4 finals so I couldnt tell you how that one went tho.
Oh really? Take back what I said then, I should really start taking more things from random BW posts with a grain of salt if they concern SC2.
pretty obvious it was going to happen, no one plays BW outside of Korea in an organized league anyway, SC 2 can get more spectators than BW and more sponsor interest
they could make the korean qualis anyway and then do the "WCG BW finals" in Krorea too just replace every non korean player by the AI... would be basicly the same. No international event needed.
I don't get why people are saying this is the death of bw; WCG was always pretty bad and the level of play was never up to the SLs. That being said, yeah, no reason for me to watch WCG this year.
On March 07 2011 12:11 OnFiRe888 wrote: this is terrible news, i play sc2, but BW is a classic and the reason why esports is where it is today, sad
thats not really true, its the reason korean esports is where it is today sure. And even that is pretty small when you think about the fact that they give up education for it which theyre gona have to go and get anyway when theyre done or do something related to the scene, the only real marketable skill theyd have otherwise.
If it is a sustainable lifestyle then you can say "yea esports is somewhere today". We can all hope for that day though but its far from being anywhere. Now divide that by a gajillion and you get what its worth everywhere else.
And really even the way broodwar was played early on was an absolute mess. Comparatively SC2 has alot on its side interms of player and developer experience. Ofcourse broodwar is fantastic and theres no reason it has to die out. I still love watching CS games and I havent played in 5 years, if your knowledgeable and genuinely enjoy an esport it will not die, not for you anyway.
+1 to been disapointed about not getting to see Broodwar and SC2 togther at the same tournment would have been really cool. WCG Korea last year was awesome fun day out for me and they gave me 3 free Tshirts too ^^. This was useful as I had only just got to Korea and had about 4 at the time. I look back with happy memories and disapointment its not gonna happen.
This could be a bigger hit for WCG rather than BW. Without WCG, is Samsung going to sponsor what looks like a Blizzard run show? I doubt it, most probably, WCG is gonna lose their most important and ancient sponsors. Probably, they will also be need to change places from Busan, South Korea, as changing BW for SC2 is a stupid move (for the south-korean e-sports community). They will probably get some new sponsors for this year, thanks to SC2, like Activision or Vivendi, but in the mid-term, this is just another nail on the coffin of a debt-ridden show.
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
bw was such a big big part in our all youth and it's not that easy to see the most personal favorite computergame for so many years dying out outside korea. i don't have a problem with blizzard moving on, i'm just pissed about that newcomer-kids that keep saying "hahah your old game is dead go sc2 go sc2!" well, hopefully bw will move on in korea many more years, than everything is ok bw will never die
Well, pretty logical move by WCG. Broodwar is pretty much only played competitively in South Korea so, not really any other party in the world to 'challenge' them to who is the 'world champion in starcraft'. Starcraft 2 on the other hand is played by foreigners and Koreans alike so, by logic, it would be the better choice for the world cyber games.
This (removal of BW) wouldn't really harm broodwar in anyway, because the scene is watched, played and organized in Korea.
On March 07 2011 12:32 arQ wrote: And wow, the elitism of some people in here is just... wow. You want to be the old-times-are-better guy than go right ahead. The rest of us evolves meanwhile if you dont mind.
why shut down sc1 just for sc2 seriously.. isnt it so frickin obvious that they are 2 games so far apart in so many things? i loved the wcg fpvods, im sure many who appreciate high apm and macro apart from just the stormuu and plaguu or micro love it too, i think sc1's requirement of such apm is what makes up its beauty, by maybe about 50%. sc2 is for the.. strategy appreciaters? i dont know, because i dont see sc2 coming close to sc1 in strategic planning, or in being an rts game in any way close for that matter. (just a side opinion) my point: there is seriously no need to not have both sc1 and sc2 coexisting at the same time, THEY ARE ALMOST COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAMES, JUST RELATED.
sc2 is for the.. strategy appreciaters? i dont know, because i dont see sc2 coming close to sc1 in strategic planning,
Just because you can't see the strategical depth in BW doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BW is far deeper than SC2, strategically, because there's game mechanics and units that allow for terrain control.
sc2 is for the.. strategy appreciaters? i dont know, because i dont see sc2 coming close to sc1 in strategic planning,
Just because you can't see the strategical depth in BW doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BW is far deeper than SC2, strategically, because there's game mechanics and units that allow for terrain control.
sad, but the only logical decision. the foreigner bw scene is dead, at least on the professional level. its no fun anymore when the korean pros roflstomp every1 else like they were computers. there used to be at least a slim chance for upsets in foreigner vs koreans, but nowadays there is not even the smallest chance for this. so basically the bw competition in wcg would have been a boring contest of deciding the order in which the 3 korean representatives occupy the top 3 spots.
it's a pretty logical decision; the quality of the foreigners who qualify would probably drop down to zim's level with sc2 sucking up all the good players, unless everyone tried to qualify for both sc2 and bw at the same time.
kind of sad that we won't see flash/jaedong rape foreigners anymore, but i doubt that the loss of wcg will affect the korean pro scene in the slightest, which is all i really care about.
On March 07 2011 19:53 shucklesors wrote:i think sc1's requirement of such apm is what makes up its beauty, by maybe about 50%. sc2 is for the.. strategy appreciaters?
I think that's only because the current maps doesn't give the players enough leeway to unleash all their apm. Early to early/mid game aggressive strategies are too powerful on them, so that a good part of the players play those strategies over exhausting macro fests.
But take for example the game Haypro vs Ganzi on the new and huge map TerminusRe: Ganzi was constantly harrassing or pushing Haypro's defences at three places at once. Haypro never stood a chance because he was played into the corner, always defending and never able to plan and put on some effective counterpressure in order to secure another expansion. That is how I like my sc2 games. ^^
i dont know about you guys but i ENJOYED watching the pro koreans roflstomp the foreigners it was fun to see how much they struggled against the multitask of progamers besides...wcg is the best time to get some fpvod/replays of korean pros...its hard to find replays nowadays fpvods are just impossible
Would have been nice to see BW as well as SC2, but I guess SC2 is the only choice that really makes sense on a global scale since BW is, lets be honest, totally dead outside of Korea.
Sad, I would have liked to have seen both games at WCG. Now it's too much like - out with the old in with the new. BW has been such a big part of WCG, that a propper goodbye and a passing of the torch would not be out of place. Maybe WCG could consider a BW Showmatch with some top player. One last Hurray! for BW so to speak, but that will probably not happen.
I'm pretty sure blizzard and wcg( probably sc2 fanboys themselves) were afraid of sc2 viewers being exposed to another tau cross, which will of course kill sc2. Thats why they dropped BW, the two games just cannot co exist. + Show Spoiler +
This makes me sad. WCG was a place where foreigners could actually get to go see the Korean pros live, and even interact with them sometimes.
While I can see where they're coming from, it's still saddening. WCG has produced some really great games between the pros (JD vs Flash on Tau Cross, anyone?), and now we don't get to see those anymore.
On March 07 2011 22:19 DTWolfwood wrote: Well at the least this gives the rest of the world a fighting chance at actually winning the Grand Finals for an RTS XD
They did have Age of Empires II/III/Mythology and Command and Conquer 3 at previous WCG Grand Finals, and I'm pretty sure non-Koreans won those competitions. Heck, I think I even saw some VODs floating around on Youtube with DjWheat casting some C&C3 games for WCG.
Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see how the rest of the world fares against the best of Korea. Considering the events at IEM and FXOpen, mid-level Koreans are still quite scary when facing foreigners, and top level Koreans will only be more frightening unless Huk, Jinro, or Idra can knock them out early.
I have to say I got into the BW/SC2 pro-scene by randomly jumping into TL.net asking for a tech help on SC2. I knew it was pretty important scene, but not THAT big. At the moment I don't even play the game, but I follow it as much as I can.
Considering that I find pretty hard to call sport a game owned by a private company, I think we're going in the right direction to get it really popular everywhere. The numbers are on SC2 side. I really doubt there are BW youtube channels with hundred millions of views. SC2 streamings are getting really popular with increasing numbers all the time. To me this looks like the best shot to get e-sports in the western world like it is in Korea. I respect all the BW lovers, and I sort of understand them (I didn't like much the passage of Q3 --> QL aswell), but let's be realistic, this and all the other big tournaments announced in the western world are really good news.
I think this is getting blown out of proportion by the people saying "IT'S AN END OF AN ERA!", and it's because WCG call themselves the "world cybergames", but it's really not prestigious at all, at least in the sc community.
On March 07 2011 22:19 DTWolfwood wrote: Well at the least this gives the rest of the world a fighting chance at actually winning the Grand Finals for an RTS XD
For this, you don't need to get rid of SC:BW, just introducing SC2 would be enough. Though I highly doubt that we'll see a non-korean SC2 champion, but yeah, a "fighting chance" it is.
would be really nice to have them both, but its pretty boring seeing Koreans just pwn every1 each year. And i hope to fucking god there will be a WCG Canada for sc2 this year
I'm willing to bet that SC2 doesn't receive so huge an audience that BW drew. I think we all saw this coming though. WCG:BW really was just an arena for the Koreans to go "lol" at.
I kind of hope we don't have another GSL incident though due to this change.
On March 07 2011 22:34 Wazabo wrote: I have to say I got into the BW/SC2 pro-scene by randomly jumping into TL.net asking for a tech help on SC2. I knew it was pretty important scene, but not THAT big. At the moment I don't even play the game, but I follow it as much as I can.
Considering that I find pretty hard to call sport a game owned by a private company, I think we're going in the right direction to get it really popular everywhere. The numbers are on SC2 side. I really doubt there are BW youtube channels with hundred millions of views. SC2 streamings are getting really popular with increasing numbers all the time. To me this looks like the best shot to get e-sports in the western world like it is in Korea. I respect all the BW lovers, and I sort of understand them (I didn't like much the passage of Q3 --> QL aswell), but let's be realistic, this and all the other big tournaments announced in the western world are really good news.
Can someone remind me who it was that started this phenomenon of fans being the ones who are asigned the duty to make their sport more popular? This is basically admitting that your sport is inferior and can't gain popularity itself.
Let people not be into sc2 or esports. Recruiting other fans doesn't help you... only the people who make money off the game.
You should remember that your not Day9. Your life isn't SC.
On March 07 2011 22:50 sCCrooked wrote: I'm willing to bet that SC2 doesn't receive so huge an audience that BW drew. I think we all saw this coming though. WCG:BW really was just an arena for the Koreans to go "lol" at.
I kind of hope we don't have another GSL incident though due to this change.
If Jinro's post about GSL3 finals is of any indication...
On March 07 2011 17:04 jalstar wrote: Foreign BW is officially dead, not BW in general. SC2 in Korea is unsustainable, even with the huge prize pools there's no top BW players that have switched to SC2, viewership is lower than BW's as evidenced by the finals being mostly empty, etc. With NASL and MLG coming up to distract foreign audiences I don't see the GSL lasting too much longer.
Finals being empty is a huge lie =/ They pretty much filled the arena they used for GSL3, I wasnt at GSL 4 finals so I couldnt tell you how that one went tho.
then I don't think WCG should have too much trouble getting a huge audience even without BW.
If it's in Korea, then it *might* draw a slightly smaller audience than BW, though a lot of non-fans would still be interested in checking out the SC2 event nonetheless out of curiosity and convenience. If WCG turns out to be outside of Korea despite the rumors, then I wouldn't be surprised if it draws a bigger audience for SC2 than it would have had for BW, as indicated by the huge audiences at IEM, Assembly, Dreamhack, and MLG. Dunno about non-GSL Asian tournaments, though I might need to check the numbers for the SEA IEM event.
I was actually hoping that the WCG guys would try to host a little show match after SC2 of all the foreigners playing a couple games of BW as a tribute or whatever.
Would've been fun....but that was such a fleeting dream. xD
On March 07 2011 23:06 br0fivE wrote: good riddance! SC2 is the future!
...... I got nothing to say... If I see more post like this I'll rage..... >.> T.T Sigh I love SC:BW and I've never really got into SC2 much I don't know why... SC2 just feel so different than Starcraft:Broodwar why cant BW and SC2 just co-exist? They're two different games... T.T
Well, can't say it's unexpected. Not really a big loss considering the huge perfomance gap between Koreans and non-Koreans (which actually provided some great fail moments... I'll miss those).
SC2 is a diferent story in that regard - a foreigner has never won WCG BW, but I wouldn't surprised if one of them won the first WCG SC2.
On March 07 2011 23:06 br0fivE wrote: good riddance! SC2 is the future!
This type of ignorance is unwelcome around here (and dangerous).
On March 07 2011 11:58 Helluva wrote: R.I.P. BW - You will be missed.
WCG is a minor tourney dude ;d
As long as the OSL and MSL are alive bw isn't dead.
So simple, yet straightforward and right to the point. Couldn't have said it better myself. All the tell-tale signs were there. WCG didn't have much of a choice.
On March 07 2011 22:34 Wazabo wrote: I have to say I got into the BW/SC2 pro-scene by randomly jumping into TL.net asking for a tech help on SC2. I knew it was pretty important scene, but not THAT big. At the moment I don't even play the game, but I follow it as much as I can.
Considering that I find pretty hard to call sport a game owned by a private company, I think we're going in the right direction to get it really popular everywhere. The numbers are on SC2 side. I really doubt there are BW youtube channels with hundred millions of views. SC2 streamings are getting really popular with increasing numbers all the time. To me this looks like the best shot to get e-sports in the western world like it is in Korea. I respect all the BW lovers, and I sort of understand them (I didn't like much the passage of Q3 --> QL aswell), but let's be realistic, this and all the other big tournaments announced in the western world are really good news.
Can someone remind me who it was that started this phenomenon of fans being the ones who are asigned the duty to make their sport more popular? This is basically admitting that your sport is inferior and can't gain popularity itself.
Let people not be into sc2 or esports. Recruiting other fans doesn't help you... only the people who make money off the game.
You should remember that your not Day9. Your life isn't SC.
I don't think I've ever "recruit" anyone into SC2 or BW, and I doubt it will ever happen. Maybe I had to use Blizzard instead of "we". But I guess anyone on this site would like to watch SC on their TVs.
On March 07 2011 22:34 Wazabo wrote: I have to say I got into the BW/SC2 pro-scene by randomly jumping into TL.net asking for a tech help on SC2. I knew it was pretty important scene, but not THAT big. At the moment I don't even play the game, but I follow it as much as I can.
Considering that I find pretty hard to call sport a game owned by a private company, I think we're going in the right direction to get it really popular everywhere. The numbers are on SC2 side. I really doubt there are BW youtube channels with hundred millions of views. SC2 streamings are getting really popular with increasing numbers all the time. To me this looks like the best shot to get e-sports in the western world like it is in Korea. I respect all the BW lovers, and I sort of understand them (I didn't like much the passage of Q3 --> QL aswell), but let's be realistic, this and all the other big tournaments announced in the western world are really good news.
Can someone remind me who it was that started this phenomenon of fans being the ones who are asigned the duty to make their sport more popular? This is basically admitting that your sport is inferior and can't gain popularity itself.
Let people not be into sc2 or esports. Recruiting other fans doesn't help you... only the people who make money off the game.
You should remember that your not Day9. Your life isn't SC.
Not only that, but the guy doesn't realize that streaming didn't become popular until very recently. It's hard to give people another look at a game when
a) the technology isn't there (yet the community came out with all sorts of programs like BWChart, BWCoach, Penguin, etc.)
b) a game that is years old (instead they like fanciful graphics and something new)
You guys got to stop forcing shit. It will happen on its own accord.
It seems pretty rational a decision at this point. Sc just isn't what it used to be internationally, I don't think even china has a decent shot in wcg these days?
Still very sad. I feel very nostalgic about wcg starcraft because it was basically the highpoint of the year for me as a gamer between ages 13 and 18. There wasn't anything really big to look forward to other than wcg and it even meant sweden got to send players to compete vs koreans.
i remember WCG retired cs 1.6 for cs source the year HL2 came out. shortly after that people realized that 1.6 was the better game and 1.6 was brought back the next year.
On March 07 2011 23:49 Terranist wrote: i remember WCG retired cs 1.6 for cs source the year HL2 came out. shortly after that people realized that 1.6 was the better game and 1.6 was brought back the next year.
This is what I imagine will happen with this situation too.
On March 07 2011 23:49 Terranist wrote: i remember WCG retired cs 1.6 for cs source the year HL2 came out. shortly after that people realized that 1.6 was the better game and 1.6 was brought back the next year.
This is what I imagine will happen with this situation too.
yep they will most likely have both SC2 and BW next year.
On March 07 2011 23:49 Terranist wrote: i remember WCG retired cs 1.6 for cs source the year HL2 came out. shortly after that people realized that 1.6 was the better game and 1.6 was brought back the next year.
This is what I imagine will happen with this situation too.
yep they will most likely have both SC2 and BW next year.
Makes very little sense since the probable reason they removed BW was because there was no international competition to be found, and even to ignore BW when WCG is rumored to be in south korea... I doubt next year will be different.
I wouldn't mind seeing both of them though. It's just that SC2 is greatly surpassing BW in international interest.
On March 07 2011 23:49 Terranist wrote: i remember WCG retired cs 1.6 for cs source the year HL2 came out. shortly after that people realized that 1.6 was the better game and 1.6 was brought back the next year.
This is what I imagine will happen with this situation too.
yep they will most likely have both SC2 and BW next year.
I doubt it, a lot of pros stayed with 1.6 but I don't see the sc2 foreigners switching back anytime soon.
SC2 pros won't switch back because it's so easy money. They can just chill at 60 APM and win a lot of money. Those who like to challenge themselves will stay with BW though.
On March 08 2011 00:13 Arnstein wrote: SC2 pros won't switch back because it's so easy money. They can just chill at 60 APM and win a lot of money. Those who like to challenge themselves will stay with BW though.
seriously why are you posting stuff that isn't even true?
On March 08 2011 00:13 Arnstein wrote: SC2 pros won't switch back because it's so easy money. They can just chill at 60 APM and win a lot of money. Those who like to challenge themselves will stay with BW though.
dude. Thats so not true, the same passion players had playing BW they still do playing SC2, your statement is 100% not true.
On March 08 2011 00:24 Dante08 wrote: Sad news but totally expected. G5 and nyoken are probably the only foreigners left playing bw, or have they switched over?
as far as I know,G5 plays sc2 off and on and nyoken fell off the face of the earth.
This was bound to happen one day. Sadly, like everything, every game has a limited lifetime.
On March 08 2011 00:13 Arnstein wrote: SC2 pros won't switch back because it's so easy money. They can just chill at 60 APM and win a lot of money. Those who like to challenge themselves will stay with BW though.
I don't think "challenge" is the real thing that interests the players. If they can earn money more easily in SC2, or that they cannot perform well in SC1 anymore, they will switch. Perhaps some will be adventurous and say that they have switched because the game is new, and they want to try out new stuff etc...But overall, I think as long as they keep earning money with BW contracts, I think they will stay. Challenge is just too subjective to be held as something important for people trying to earn their lives.
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
On March 07 2011 11:49 HKriceboy88 wrote: I'm sad, but i guess this was bound to happen one day. No more auto 1,2,3 finishes for Korea. =[
Korea had a 1-2-3 finish in IEM in SC2 recently. They might actually be more ahead in SC2 right now then they were in BW when WCG started. Boxer was in bonjwa mode during the first 2 WCGs. A foreigner could've easily won if not for him. The 1-2-3 finishes started later.
On March 08 2011 00:13 Arnstein wrote: SC2 pros won't switch back because it's so easy money. They can just chill at 60 APM and win a lot of money. Those who like to challenge themselves will stay with BW though.
dude. Thats so not true, the same passion players had playing BW they still do playing SC2, your statement is 100% not true.
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
Ball vs. ball gameplay
so true...
will people please stop saying dumb things like "brood war is dead"? It's almost ridiculous how so many on TL is saying this over and over again. WCG never had a big impact in the e-sports scene in Korea and BW being dropped in the WCG is not going to affect the industry. Koreans never took the WCG seriously anyways. MSL and OSL is where the focus is at.
On March 08 2011 00:13 Arnstein wrote: SC2 pros won't switch back because it's so easy money. They can just chill at 60 APM and win a lot of money. Those who like to challenge themselves will stay with BW though.
dude. Thats so not true, the same passion players had playing BW they still do playing SC2, your statement is 100% not true.
A BW event in WCG would be as commercially viable as an international football (not soccer) championship. No one really plays football outside of North America. And no one plays BW outside of Korea.
It's sad that WCG will not include the most skilled PC gamers and the most competitive RTS game ever . I don't think anyone practises as much as korean BW progamers and shows as much skill in a PC game since no one takes gaming as seriously as them .
I hope this is not because of the Kespa vs Blizzard debacle and that BW will be included next year .
I wouldn't feel cheated if SC2 was a decent successor to BW. The move would be called progress. This move is just about moving to a better fishing spot.
i don't understand why BW player are so sad, it's not like if WCG was the only tournament on BW. korean always win, so watching a MSL/OSL/SWL is better than WCG. I also disagree with sc2 being less fun to watch, it's another style. ( I watch both and love both )
On March 08 2011 01:04 phisku wrote: i don't understand why BW player are so sad, it's not like if WCG was the only tournament on BW. korean always win, so watching a MSL/OSL/SWL is better than WCG. I also disagree with sc2 being less fun to watch, it's another style. ( I watch both and love both )
For me, it was a tradition.
My favorite game to be presented as one of the top competitive games of the world.
Just seeing it there as a part of WCG meant the game isn't dead outside of Korea. I guess I can't say that anymore. As much as I welcome SC2 in WCG, it feels like Winter Olympic just got rid of hokey for me.
On March 08 2011 00:58 raga4ka wrote: It's sad that WCG will not include the most skilled PC gamers and the most competitive RTS game ever . I don't think anyone practises as much as korean BW progamers and shows as much skill in a PC game since no one takes gaming as seriously as them .
I hope this is not because of the Kespa vs Blizzard debacle and that BW will be included next year .
WCG has been about competitions around the world where they eventually meet at the finals... the Foreigner scene is so weak at BW now that like many have pointed, it would be a joke except for WCG korea, and even there it's rarely taken very seriously.
On March 08 2011 00:58 raga4ka wrote: It's sad that WCG will not include the most skilled PC gamers and the most competitive RTS game ever . I don't think anyone practises as much as korean BW progamers and shows as much skill in a PC game since no one takes gaming as seriously as them .
I hope this is not because of the Kespa vs Blizzard debacle and that BW will be included next year .
WCG has been about competitions around the world where they eventually meet at the finals... the Foreigner scene is so weak at BW now that like many have pointed, it would be a joke except for WCG korea, and even there it's rarely taken very seriously.
Yeah i guess so . There was pretty much very little to non competition between foreigners and koreans before SC2 now koreans are light years ahead . I'm still sad at not being able to watch my favourite game .
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about.
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about.
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
Here is a replay of my 10 year old cousin, with out any technique or game understanding at all. BW is just naturally a good game and has been that way since it was released. replay: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41046
On March 08 2011 01:04 phisku wrote: i don't understand why BW player are so sad, it's not like if WCG was the only tournament on BW. korean always win, so watching a MSL/OSL/SWL is better than WCG. I also disagree with sc2 being less fun to watch, it's another style. ( I watch both and love both )
I think it's out of nostalgia. There was a very long period in the foreigner scene where WCG was the only big tournament, and there was always a lot of hype/drama/awesome games surrounding the qualifiers and the big final. It may not mean much to a newcomer, but thinking back to Froz vs Boxer still sends chills down my spine.
It's a completely reasonable decision and completely to be expected, but this is like the official announcement that the BW foreign tournament scene is dead, after 12(?) years of history.
On March 08 2011 00:50 TurtlePerson2 wrote: A BW event in WCG would be as commercially viable as an international football (not soccer) championship. No one really plays football outside of North America. And no one plays BW outside of Korea.
This should've been the last post in the thread. Perfect analogy.
Maybe finally it just won't be Flash and or Jaedong winning every year. Good choice though from the international point of view. Broodwar is starting to slip away?
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about.
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
Here is a replay of my 10 year old cousin, with out any technique or game understanding at all. BW is just naturally a good game and has been that way since it was released. replay: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41046
I think this part is jaded in subjectivity. Especially when you consider the different communities that existed from the start of BW versus SC2 and the state of the competitive scene. Although, I have not viewed the replay yet, this is just my initial thought.
Sad! Was hoping for one more round of BW T_T But since there are no more players to actually have any real turnament in WCG for BW besides Korea its not like its a shock~~ only sad :d
"We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world". This is dirty lie!! SC: BW won WCG game poll every year. WCG sold themself. Money from Blizzard > gamers?!
This was to be expected considering the popularity SC2 has currently. The only good thing that came out of this is that it strengthen my love for BW and ladder like if it was the last day left.
On March 08 2011 02:56 Ruff wrote: "We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world". This is dirty lie!! SC: BW won WCG game poll every year. WCG sold themself. Money from Blizzard > gamers?!
I hate WCG now and will never watch it.
WCG = World Cyber Games != Korean Cyber Games
BW is dead outside of Korea face it its the truth. Theres no point at all in keeping it. Sc2 on the other hand :o
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about.
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
Here is a replay of my 10 year old cousin, with out any technique or game understanding at all. BW is just naturally a good game and has been that way since it was released. replay: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41046
I think this part is jaded in subjectivity. Especially when you consider the different communities that existed from the start of BW versus SC2 and the state of the competitive scene. Although, I have not viewed the replay yet, this is just my initial thought.
He got away with it because of the BW mention. if he had said starcraft1 he would have been way wrong. since starcraft1 on release was reallly awful. but from BW on it was a great game.
On March 08 2011 02:56 Ruff wrote: "We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world". This is dirty lie!! SC: BW won WCG game poll every year. WCG sold themself. Money from Blizzard > gamers?!
I really don't get the hardcore BW fans (I've been following BW for many years and still am). Do you even realize how humiliating would it be for BW to be still at WCG? There would be 3 koreans + bunch of nonamers because noone really good outside Korea plays it any more. Rather than this sad thing, it's better to not have any tournament at all.
On March 08 2011 02:56 Ruff wrote: "We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world". This is dirty lie!! SC: BW won WCG game poll every year. WCG sold themself. Money from Blizzard > gamers?!
I only count 8 games listed, even though they are talking about the top 10 games. Part of why people don't play SC is cause of the lack of tournaments. Every year WCG has games where they are lucky if 5 people sign up per qualifier. No matter how you want to spin it, SC is not at that level of "dead."
Koreans absolutely destroy non-Koreans every year in SC, so it's hyperbole to act like there will be a drastic difference or the world will end if a "tier 2 foreigner" is there instead of a tier A player. If you switched over to SC 2 and failed to qualify for finals, why wouldn't you also play SC if you're good at it?
Marketing wise, what better place to kill off BW and promote SC 2 than Korea? The Blizzard vs Samsung dynamic is far more important in something like this, IMO.
Honestly this is the best choice, This will help SC2 grow, and it is the premier esport atm. I think too many people have nostalgia-ish feelings about BW and get saddened to see it slowly hit the sack.
On March 08 2011 02:56 Ruff wrote: "We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world". This is dirty lie!! SC: BW won WCG game poll every year. WCG sold themself. Money from Blizzard > gamers?!
I only count 8 games listed, even though they are talking about the top 10 games. Part of why people don't play SC is cause of the lack of tournaments. Every year WCG has games where they are lucky if 5 people sign up per qualifier. No matter how you want to spin it, SC is not at that level of "dead."
Koreans absolutely destroy non-Koreans every year in SC, so it's hyperbole to act like there will be a drastic difference or the world will end if a "tier 2 foreigner" is there instead of a tier A player. If you switched over to SC 2 and failed to qualify for finals, why wouldn't you also play SC if you're good at it?
Marketing wise, what better place to kill off BW and promote SC 2 than Korea? The Blizzard vs Samsung dynamic is far more important in something like this, IMO.
Well, WCG did only include 9 games in their official lineup, and they chose Special Force and Crossfire over CoD Black Ops.
I think one of the major issues that made WCG drop BW is the fact that with the Blizzard vs KeSPA debate and lawsuit going on, KeSPA would have most likely not sent their players to WCG and OGN would not be able to broadcast the event.
In fact, according to a previous thread:
"They are currently considering including Blizzard Games as an official event under the condition that they do not broadcast the games within Korea and Korean representatives are not playing in the WCG"
So it pretty much was either having a BW tournament without Koreans or have an SC2 tournament. Considering the state of the foreign competitive scene for BW, a BW tournament would be an absolutely pitiful display of skill since most every non-Korean has switched over.
On March 08 2011 02:56 Ruff wrote: "We decided to remove StarCraft 1 from our games lineup after a discussion with the gamers from all over the world". This is dirty lie!! SC: BW won WCG game poll every year. WCG sold themself. Money from Blizzard > gamers?!
I only count 8 games listed, even though they are talking about the top 10 games. Part of why people don't play SC is cause of the lack of tournaments. Every year WCG has games where they are lucky if 5 people sign up per qualifier. No matter how you want to spin it, SC is not at that level of "dead."
Koreans absolutely destroy non-Koreans every year in SC, so it's hyperbole to act like there will be a drastic difference or the world will end if a "tier 2 foreigner" is there instead of a tier A player. If you switched over to SC 2 and failed to qualify for finals, why wouldn't you also play SC if you're good at it?
Marketing wise, what better place to kill off BW and promote SC 2 than Korea? The Blizzard vs Samsung dynamic is far more important in something like this, IMO.
I think you're talking about the difference between fielding a competition where several countries are well-represented but one is super dominant (SC:BW pre-SC2, Korea) and one where only one country is capable of respectable representation (SC:BW post-SC2, Korea). This is not to dig at BW as a respectable game, but to urge consideration for why it might no longer be a suitable competition at an international level as opposed to its previous showings.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the last big SC 2 tourney (IEM), didn't Korea take the top 3 spots? To my knowledge, those weren't even the best Koreans in their scene, meanwhile most of the best foreigners competed in this. I think SC 2 is going down the same path, so I don't think there's really a big difference there. Even if 1 country is dominant, big deal? That never stopped people from loving SC at WCG. Did you see flash vs jaedong last year at the finals? Parity might be a desirable thing, but I can't see that stopping someone from enjoy a game at WCG. Who doesn't like watching an underdog, anyways?
On March 08 2011 04:07 playa wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the last big SC 2 tourney (IEM), didn't Korea take the top 3 spots? To my knowledge, those weren't even the best Koreans in their scene, meanwhile most of the best foreigners competed in this. I think SC 2 is going down the same path, so I don't think there's really a big difference there. Even if 1 country is dominant, big deal? That never stopped people from loving SC at WCG. Did you see flash vs jaedong last year at the finals? Parity might be a desirable thing, but I can't see that stopping someone from enjoy a game at WCG. Who doesn't like watching an underdog, anyways?
The problem is that there wouldn't be any Koreans at a hypothetical WCG 2011 BW tournament because of all the Blizzard vs KeSPA drama. Almost all the dominant non-Korean pros have switched over to SC2, and whatever last vestiges of the non-Korean BW scene would be far less skilled than the average Korean BW player, so the games would probably look even worse than the worst of Proleague. It would be nice to have BW at WCG 2011, but without the Koreans and the best non-Koreans, the games probably won't be entertaining.
You would be better off watching any normal Proleague match for better played, more entertaining games. Without the big foreign names, the novelty of watching relative unknowns duking it out would quickly fade once it becomes evident that their level of play is just not up to the level that we all enjoy out of the average Korean.
This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about.
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
Not going to happen unless Blizz decides to move away from their hard counter system. SC2 lacks units who can completely wreck the opposing side because of how they are designed and how they function, not because they have some arbitrary damage bonus against a certain type of unit.
Unit positioning is also not as important when most units are extremely mobile. SC2 needs more siege tank-type units that are more powerful when positioned correctly but can't have their positioning changed easily. Not to mention that the SC2 siege tank is weaker than the BW siege tank.
On March 08 2011 04:07 playa wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the last big SC 2 tourney (IEM), didn't Korea take the top 3 spots? To my knowledge, those weren't even the best Koreans in their scene, meanwhile most of the best foreigners competed in this. I think SC 2 is going down the same path, so I don't think there's really a big difference there. Even if 1 country is dominant, big deal? That never stopped people from loving SC at WCG. Did you see flash vs jaedong last year at the finals? Parity might be a desirable thing, but I can't see that stopping someone from enjoy a game at WCG. Who doesn't like watching an underdog, anyways?
The problem is that there wouldn't be any Koreans at a hypothetical WCG 2011 BW tournament because of all the Blizzard vs KeSPA drama. Almost all the dominant non-Korean pros have switched over to SC2, and whatever last vestiges of the non-Korean BW scene would be far less skilled than the average Korean BW player, so the games would probably look even worse than the worst of Proleague. It would be nice to have BW at WCG 2011, but without the Koreans and the best non-Koreans, the games probably won't be entertaining.
You would be better off watching any normal Proleague match for better played, more entertaining games. Without the big foreign names, the novelty of watching relative unknowns duking it out would quickly fade once it becomes evident that their level of play is just not up to the level that we all enjoy out of the average Korean.
If they had SC and there were no Koreans, then parity fans would have to be excited. However, if that were to be the case, I can't fault WCG for not including SC. After all, the finals will be held in Korea and they obviously are the best at the game. It would probably be wrong or at least feel wrong. As for non Korean competition, I don't see it as a big deal; in the recent ISL qualification, at least 60 foreigners who were capable of B rank played and did so. ISL is a great tourney, but there's no way WCG wouldn't have even more skilled players playing. On top of that, when it comes to "dominant players," you're basically referring to Nony, Idra and Ret. 3 players making or breaking a game? I dunno about that.
Also, as far as skill level goes, would you guys be able to watch SC WCG games from like 10 years ago and think the skill level was high? Who is to say the skill level in SC 2 is really that high after less than a year?
Sad but ,easy to understand the reasons for this step, no reason for me to quit bw,(there is the korean scene and the foreigner scene also has some tours to follow)
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote:there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
Haha, "OK".
I think he meant "no reason but nostalgia", which reverses the meaning but still might not hold much truth. There are lots of reasons to stick with BW, if people want to that's their prerogative. Still, it would be nice if the BW half of the forums and the SC2 half of the forums got along whenever a BW thread gets news'ed.
On March 08 2011 03:52 ZeritoN wrote: Makes sense to drop BW but keep WC3...
/sarcasm
One word: Grubby. That makes WC3 not exclusively Chinese. Maybe ToD while we're at it. If you ever wondered about Chinese sc2 scene, there are quite a few that were WC3 pros.
Sucks but reality its the best decision for them, the BW scene outside of korea has faded because of SC2 and they need the games to bring the best worldwide competition.
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
I'm not sure about other people but I would quit watching e-sports if Korean BW died. I don't really care about any other e-sports except BW and I while I do understand people caring about e-sports as a whole, I disagree with that ideology. A game should be able to succeed on its own merits, not because there is no competition. It's not like the people who genuinely dislike SC2 are going to suddenly like it because competitive BW no longer exists.
On March 07 2011 17:04 jalstar wrote: Foreign BW is officially dead, not BW in general. SC2 in Korea is unsustainable, even with the huge prize pools there's no top BW players that have switched to SC2, viewership is lower than BW's as evidenced by the finals being mostly empty, etc. With NASL and MLG coming up to distract foreign audiences I don't see the GSL lasting too much longer.
Finals being empty is a huge lie =/ They pretty much filled the arena they used for GSL3, I wasnt at GSL 4 finals so I couldnt tell you how that one went tho.
Oh really? Take back what I said then, I should really start taking more things from random BW posts with a grain of salt if they concern SC2.
Actually went back to read some earlier posts... GSL4 was relatively empty because it was on the same day as the OSL finals. Screenshot comparison by SDM showing the audience differences: http://twitpic.com/3uvfob vs http://twitpic.com/3uvf59. I read some people claim that the GSL picture was taken before the game started but I don't think they'd be waving their things if the progamers weren't on stage/about to be. Then again, the OSL finals were full 2 hours before the games started and there were literally hundreds to thousands of people in the lobby cause they couldn't fit in.
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
You're entitled to your opinion, but as of right now, the same reasons people stay with BW are the exact same reasons people refused to switch to CS:S. The gameplay is just so much more balanced. The reason I said "right now" is because I want to reserve judgment until all of the expansion packs for SC2 come out, and then give it another half year or so to see how the game evolves. If by 2014 (or whatever the date is), the games continue to be somewhat like the games we have now, SC2 is fucked.
I think almost all of the current SC2 pros share the sentiment that BW is the superior game right now, but since it is almost impossible to break into the BW scene as a foreigner, coupled with great prize money and sponsorships worldwide, the only chance for a foreigner to go pro is with SC2.
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
You're entitled to your opinion, but as of right now, the same reasons people stay with BW are the exact same reasons people refused to switch to CS:S. The gameplay is just so much more balanced. The reason I said "right now" is because I want to reserve judgment until all of the expansion packs for SC2 come out, and then give it another half year or so to see how the game evolves. If by 2014 (or whatever the date is), the games continue to be somewhat like the games we have now, SC2 is fucked.
I think almost all of the current SC2 pros share the sentiment that BW is the superior game right now, but since it is almost impossible to break into the BW scene as a foreigner, coupled with great prize money and sponsorships worldwide, the only chance for a foreigner to go pro is with SC2.
Agreed, I just like the units and the mechanics better. I played SC2 for a while because a lot of my friends played, and it was fun... for a while. The units are so lackluster... The marauder, roach, immortal, colossus feel like such boring units. Thor and marauder don't even fit in with the terran theme, the BC already occupies that role. The roach doesn't really fit in with the zerg theme either. There's also the terrible terrible damage, terrible terrible range, and terrible terrible supply count syndrome. Then there's the deathball; maxed out armies are also much smaller in unit count, and take up less room, so large fights have nothing on BW tvp or zvp battles, which can take up more than 2 screens. There is much less variation between the races, like all races possessing low dps 'tanks' like marauder and roach, which really belongs to protoss.
Then there's the gameplay. Automine and MBS means macro is no longer a difficult skill, the pure macro player no longer exists, since you don't need to dedicate that much effort to macro. Even protoss macro in BW is harder than SC2 zerg macro. Also, micro is easier too, with good unit AI, smartcast, infinite unit selection. Smartcast is especially disgusting; even newbs can carpet storm with ease, spam fungals, clone feedback. Micro just isn't very impressive. In BW, you see a good flank with lurker ling wreck your MnM army, you respect your opponent for the move. In SC2, you see some terran kite your army with marauders, or carpet storm, and you really aren't impressed, since you could easier pull it off as well.
Also, BW UI allows for more defined playstyles. If your macro is good, you can roll your opponent, if your micro is good, you can destroy their armies with ease and win early. If your multitask and army control is good, stall for the lategame to abuse your advantage.
I'm sure all of these points have been beaten to death already, but this is how I feel. I play SC2 for casual games and to relax, I play BW when I wanna be competitive.
On March 08 2011 04:07 playa wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the last big SC 2 tourney (IEM), didn't Korea take the top 3 spots? To my knowledge, those weren't even the best Koreans in their scene, meanwhile most of the best foreigners competed in this. I think SC 2 is going down the same path, so I don't think there's really a big difference there. Even if 1 country is dominant, big deal? That never stopped people from loving SC at WCG. Did you see flash vs jaedong last year at the finals? Parity might be a desirable thing, but I can't see that stopping someone from enjoy a game at WCG. Who doesn't like watching an underdog, anyways?
The problem is that there wouldn't be any Koreans at a hypothetical WCG 2011 BW tournament because of all the Blizzard vs KeSPA drama. Almost all the dominant non-Korean pros have switched over to SC2, and whatever last vestiges of the non-Korean BW scene would be far less skilled than the average Korean BW player, so the games would probably look even worse than the worst of Proleague. It would be nice to have BW at WCG 2011, but without the Koreans and the best non-Koreans, the games probably won't be entertaining.
You would be better off watching any normal Proleague match for better played, more entertaining games. Without the big foreign names, the novelty of watching relative unknowns duking it out would quickly fade once it becomes evident that their level of play is just not up to the level that we all enjoy out of the average Korean.
If they had SC and there were no Koreans, then parity fans would have to be excited. However, if that were to be the case, I can't fault WCG for not including SC. After all, the finals will be held in Korea and they obviously are the best at the game. It would probably be wrong or at least feel wrong. As for non Korean competition, I don't see it as a big deal; in the recent ISL qualification, at least 60 foreigners who were capable of B rank played and did so. ISL is a great tourney, but there's no way WCG wouldn't have even more skilled players playing. On top of that, when it comes to "dominant players," you're basically referring to Nony, Idra and Ret. 3 players making or breaking a game? I dunno about that.
Also, as far as skill level goes, would you guys be able to watch SC WCG games from like 10 years ago and think the skill level was high? Who is to say the skill level in SC 2 is really that high after less than a year?
Out of the 16 non-Koreans that played at the WCG 2010 Grand Finals, I researched and confirmed that at least 9 have switched over to SC2, which does not bode well for the non-Korean BW scene. Some of the notable switchers include dominant players such as Brat_OK, White_Ra, and Sen. Out of the 7 non-switchers, I can't find much information about 3 (heme, legend, xGs.small), 2 are Japanese (Kuroa, nazoman), 1 has retired from progaming to aid his ailing mother with cancer (vulture), and 1 has stated that he wants to stay with BW (G5).
It doesn't seem logical or economical for WCG to broadcast BW. No Korean players or broadcasters means no Korean fans. No non-Korean "big names" (like White_Ra, Brat_OK, and Nony) mean almost no foreign fans. The BW tournament would be a ghost town compared to the SC2 tournament, especially after the novelty of watching non-Koreans wears off. The costs of running the BW tournament would probably not justify the potentially small audience it would attract.
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
No, it's not temporary and its roots are not in my appreciation of progamers' skill.
If you compare the micro potential of BW units with their sc2 counterpart you'll see a large gap. People drool over MKP's Marine micro - imagine BW has dozens of units that, if used by a skilled player, can really wreck havoc. SC2 simply doesn't have that.
What's worse, whenever a new trick gets discovered, blizzard dilligently patches it out. Take Void Rays for example. Such "unintended features" are what made BW BW. Same for Quake 3 and CS. They all had those.
Also, as someone mentioned above, sc2 units are too mobile. And there are some broken mechanics that will eventually get nerfed into insignificance.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about
I really don't see what you're trying to say here. From what I see, the maps that "challenge sc2 play" are usually garbage (talking about blizzard maps). The most acclaimed maps were largely inspired by the BW map making school (iCCup, GSL maps).
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
It's not as much about players having refined their play in BW, as it is about the BW engine, the bugs that actually enhence the gameplay, the counter system that is neither hard nor soft, but rather based on micro and positioning, the nature of each race, and so on.
Sc2 by design sacrifices both skill "floor" and "ceiling" for the sake of accessibility. Smart-casting resulted in overnerfed spells and the lack of really game changing spells, MBS/auto-mining resulted in managing 4-6 bases being as easy as managing just 1-2, as well as less multi-tasking demands, the new pathing, hard counters and DPS changes caused ball vs. ball gameplay and 1 second long battles, and so on, and so on.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
I used to believe sc2 would surpass BW, but I've seen blizzard's track record. They're doing the opposite of what they should be doing to make sure sc2 lives up to BW. The game is pretty much devoid of micro (not only compared to BW, but also WC3 and even some CNC games), lacks multi-tasking, and has other problems I've mentioned. Blizzard has some inexplicable problems with addressing the problems with their ladder mappool. Not to mention the failure that is BNet "2.0" and the lack of LAN, as well as the KeSPA negotiations fiasco (should've just let KeSPA handle the esports side of sc2 - it would've been at least twice as large by now).
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
Why is supporting a game that's inferior on so many levels much better for esports? The reasons why BW is a better esport material and so many people (even those currently playing sc2 for a living) prefer it over sc2 are not driven by nostalgia. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to imply that nostalgia kept the game alive for so many years. ;;
You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
And thank god people didn't transition to CS:S as it's a crappy, dumbed down version of the original CS. T___T
I guess it kinda makes sense, especially since the people who only play competitively anymore are generally in Korean proleagues. It's unfortunate, I like watching BW, but with the whole KeSPA vs. Blizzard thing it makes sense.
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
No, it's not temporary and its roots are not in my appreciation of progamers' skill.
If you compare the micro potential of BW units with their sc2 counterpart you'll see a large gap. People drool over MKP's Marine micro - imagine BW has dozens of units that, if used by a skilled player, can really wreck havoc. SC2 simply doesn't have that.
What's worse, whenever a new trick gets discovered, blizzard dilligently patches it out. Take Void Rays for example. Such "unintended features" are what made BW BW. Same for Quake 3 and CS. They all had those.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about
I really don't see what you're trying to say here. From what I see, the maps that "challenge sc2 play" are usually garbage (talking about blizzard maps). The most acclaimed maps were largely inspired by the BW map making school (iCCup, GSL maps).
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
It's not as much about players having refined their play in BW, as it is about the BW engine, the bugs that actually enhence the gameplay, the counter system that is neither hard nor soft, but rather based on micro and positioning, the nature of each race, and so on.
Sc2 by design sacrifices both skill "floor" and "ceiling" for the sake of accessibility. Smart-casting resulted in overnerfed spells and the lack of really game changing spells, MBS/auto-mining resulted in managing 4-6 bases being as easy as managing just 1-2, as well as less multi-tasking demands, the new pathing, hard counters and DPS changes caused ball vs. ball gameplay and 1 second long battles, and so on, and so on.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
I used to believe sc2 would surpass BW, but I've seen blizzard's track record. They're doing the opposite of what they should be doing to make sure sc2 lives up to BW. The game is pretty much devoid of micro (not only compared to BW, but also WC3 and even some CNC games), lacks multi-tasking, and has other problems I've mentioned. Blizzard has some inexplicable problems with addressing the problems with their ladder mappool. Not to mention the failure that is BNet "2.0" and the lack of LAN, as well as the KeSPA negotiations fiasco (should've just let KeSPA handle the esports side of sc2 - it would've been at least twice as large by now).
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
Why is supporting a game that's inferior on so many levels much better for esports? The reasons why BW is a better esport material and so many people (even those currently playing sc2 for a living) prefer it over sc2 are not driven by nostalgia. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to imply that nostalgia kept the game alive for so many years. ;;
You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
And thank god people didn't transition to CS:S as it's a crappy, dumbed down version of the original CS. T___T
Bottom line, what's probably better for esports is to stop fighting an already lost battle. Grab some perspective while at it too. Much of what you conclude as fact is just pretty much your very biased opinion. At least try not to let it reek when you're going to defend the game you love. A considerable amount of nostalgia is unavoidable when such a big icon for the whole gaming industry beings to fade, but SC2 is by no means a bad replacement. Give it some credit, enjoy it as the rest of us.
On March 08 2011 05:10 maybenexttime wrote:You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
I'd don't usually quote ppl and expand on their comments, but BAM! Talk about 100% hitting the nail on the head! It's too bad Blizzard waited so damn long to build SC2 and got sucked into the "3D" world. The game didn't need a complete makeover. An epic add-on (remember when BroodWar replaced SCraft!) or HD remix would have been a dream come true. I never wanted a NEW scraft, just a better one!
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
No, it's not temporary and its roots are not in my appreciation of progamers' skill.
If you compare the micro potential of BW units with their sc2 counterpart you'll see a large gap. People drool over MKP's Marine micro - imagine BW has dozens of units that, if used by a skilled player, can really wreck havoc. SC2 simply doesn't have that.
What's worse, whenever a new trick gets discovered, blizzard dilligently patches it out. Take Void Rays for example. Such "unintended features" are what made BW BW. Same for Quake 3 and CS. They all had those.
Also, as someone mentioned above, sc2 units are too mobile. And there are some broken mechanics that will eventually get nerfed into insignificance.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about
I really don't see what you're trying to say here. From what I see, the maps that "challenge sc2 play" are usually garbage (talking about blizzard maps). The most acclaimed maps were largely inspired by the BW map making school (iCCup, GSL maps).
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
It's not as much about players having refined their play in BW, as it is about the BW engine, the bugs that actually enhence the gameplay, the counter system that is neither hard nor soft, but rather based on micro and positioning, the nature of each race, and so on.
Sc2 by design sacrifices both skill "floor" and "ceiling" for the sake of accessibility. Smart-casting resulted in overnerfed spells and the lack of really game changing spells, MBS/auto-mining resulted in managing 4-6 bases being as easy as managing just 1-2, as well as less multi-tasking demands, the new pathing, hard counters and DPS changes caused ball vs. ball gameplay and 1 second long battles, and so on, and so on.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
I used to believe sc2 would surpass BW, but I've seen blizzard's track record. They're doing the opposite of what they should be doing to make sure sc2 lives up to BW. The game is pretty much devoid of micro (not only compared to BW, but also WC3 and even some CNC games), lacks multi-tasking, and has other problems I've mentioned. Blizzard has some inexplicable problems with addressing the problems with their ladder mappool. Not to mention the failure that is BNet "2.0" and the lack of LAN, as well as the KeSPA negotiations fiasco (should've just let KeSPA handle the esports side of sc2 - it would've been at least twice as large by now).
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
Why is supporting a game that's inferior on so many levels much better for esports? The reasons why BW is a better esport material and so many people (even those currently playing sc2 for a living) prefer it over sc2 are not driven by nostalgia. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to imply that nostalgia kept the game alive for so many years. ;;
You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
And thank god people didn't transition to CS:S as it's a crappy, dumbed down version of the original CS. T___T
Bottom line, what's probably better for esports is to stop fighting an already lost battle. Grab some perspective while at it too. Much of what you conclude as fact is just pretty much your very biased opinion. At least try not to let it reek when you're going to defend the game you love. A considerable amount of nostalgia is unavoidable when such a big icon for the whole gaming industry beings to fade, but SC2 is by no means a bad replacement. Give it some credit, enjoy it as the rest of us.
What bias? Huh?
Also BW is not fading, far from it. T____T And sc2 wouldn't be a bad replacement for any other RTS, but it's bad for BW. BW is really something "beyond the game", while sc2 is merely a good game, although with many flaws the developers refuse to address.
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
No, it's not temporary and its roots are not in my appreciation of progamers' skill.
If you compare the micro potential of BW units with their sc2 counterpart you'll see a large gap. People drool over MKP's Marine micro - imagine BW has dozens of units that, if used by a skilled player, can really wreck havoc. SC2 simply doesn't have that.
What's worse, whenever a new trick gets discovered, blizzard dilligently patches it out. Take Void Rays for example. Such "unintended features" are what made BW BW. Same for Quake 3 and CS. They all had those.
Also, as someone mentioned above, sc2 units are too mobile. And there are some broken mechanics that will eventually get nerfed into insignificance.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about
I really don't see what you're trying to say here. From what I see, the maps that "challenge sc2 play" are usually garbage (talking about blizzard maps). The most acclaimed maps were largely inspired by the BW map making school (iCCup, GSL maps).
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
It's not as much about players having refined their play in BW, as it is about the BW engine, the bugs that actually enhence the gameplay, the counter system that is neither hard nor soft, but rather based on micro and positioning, the nature of each race, and so on.
Sc2 by design sacrifices both skill "floor" and "ceiling" for the sake of accessibility. Smart-casting resulted in overnerfed spells and the lack of really game changing spells, MBS/auto-mining resulted in managing 4-6 bases being as easy as managing just 1-2, as well as less multi-tasking demands, the new pathing, hard counters and DPS changes caused ball vs. ball gameplay and 1 second long battles, and so on, and so on.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
I used to believe sc2 would surpass BW, but I've seen blizzard's track record. They're doing the opposite of what they should be doing to make sure sc2 lives up to BW. The game is pretty much devoid of micro (not only compared to BW, but also WC3 and even some CNC games), lacks multi-tasking, and has other problems I've mentioned. Blizzard has some inexplicable problems with addressing the problems with their ladder mappool. Not to mention the failure that is BNet "2.0" and the lack of LAN, as well as the KeSPA negotiations fiasco (should've just let KeSPA handle the esports side of sc2 - it would've been at least twice as large by now).
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
Why is supporting a game that's inferior on so many levels much better for esports? The reasons why BW is a better esport material and so many people (even those currently playing sc2 for a living) prefer it over sc2 are not driven by nostalgia. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to imply that nostalgia kept the game alive for so many years. ;;
You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
And thank god people didn't transition to CS:S as it's a crappy, dumbed down version of the original CS. T___T
Bottom line, what's probably better for esports is to stop fighting an already lost battle. Grab some perspective while at it too. Much of what you conclude as fact is just pretty much your very biased opinion. At least try not to let it reek when you're going to defend the game you love. A considerable amount of nostalgia is unavoidable when such a big icon for the whole gaming industry beings to fade, but SC2 is by no means a bad replacement. Give it some credit, enjoy it as the rest of us.
You have to understand that if even the pros at your game don't like playing sc2 then there is something wrong.
On March 08 2011 05:10 maybenexttime wrote:You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
I'd don't usually quote ppl and expand on their comments, but BAM! Talk about 100% hitting the nail on the head! It's too bad Blizzard waited so damn long to build SC2 and got sucked into the "3D" world. The game didn't need a complete makeover. An epic add-on (remember when BroodWar replaced SCraft!) or HD remix would have been a dream come true. I never wanted a NEW scraft, just a better one!
And yet, for every BW fan who says that SC2 changes too much, there are at least 2 casual players who say that SC2 changed too little and is a BW clone. Heck, even Kotaku claims that they were disappointed by the fact that SC2 wasn't different enough from BW. http://kotaku.com/#!5720176/the-year-in-disappointments
Obviously, Blizzard can't satisfy everyone. No one can. Blizzard tried to compromise, yet we still get people complaining that SC2 changed too much/little compared to BW.
The fact the game requires less mechanics to play than the original is not his opinion though, it's just true and certainly could harm it's eSports potential in the long run. Personally i don't find as much enjoyment watching pro SC2 because simply it is not impressive. A lot of it is not beyond what i can manage to do with my paltry 140 apm.. yet in BW, the skill ceiling is ridiculous. The jump from top amateurs to pro is insanely high even. I don't watch FPS or fighting games often but i'm guessing people watch those for the same reasons we enjoy BW, frighteningly good reflexes and skills that is beyond the audiences skills.
I'm sure someone is going to pop up and tell me how SC2 hasn't advanced to this point yet; Please don't bring up that tired argument again. Anyway in regards for the topic i think it's very much a shame it's not being supported considering BW has been in it from the start i believe, and still has a stable proscene. If eSports is to be viable in the long-term surely supporting the players and older games is important..
On March 08 2011 05:41 Musiq wrote: You have to understand that if even the pros at your game don't like playing sc2 then there is something wrong.
This reminds me of the other day when i saw Kolll ban someone from his stream for asking if he played SC2. I get the feeling from interviews that a lot of foreign players are simply switching for the possibility to make money rather than genuinely think its better which is unfortunate.. i see a lot of answers like 'It has potential' and avoiding the question when the inevitable comparison to BW is asked.
On March 08 2011 05:10 maybenexttime wrote:You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
I'd don't usually quote ppl and expand on their comments, but BAM! Talk about 100% hitting the nail on the head! It's too bad Blizzard waited so damn long to build SC2 and got sucked into the "3D" world. The game didn't need a complete makeover. An epic add-on (remember when BroodWar replaced SCraft!) or HD remix would have been a dream come true. I never wanted a NEW scraft, just a better one!
Do you HONESTLY believe that a HD Remix of BW would have increased the TL.net userbase tenfold, had millions of new people playing worldwide and prompted sponsors to pump hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars into the foreign scene?
There's a lot of nostalgia in this thread by but and large the BW (and WC3) community has transitioned into SC2 about as smoothly as any competitive scene I can recall so I don't think the game has been quite the failure some on this forum wish to believe.
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
No, it's not temporary and its roots are not in my appreciation of progamers' skill.
If you compare the micro potential of BW units with their sc2 counterpart you'll see a large gap. People drool over MKP's Marine micro - imagine BW has dozens of units that, if used by a skilled player, can really wreck havoc. SC2 simply doesn't have that.
What's worse, whenever a new trick gets discovered, blizzard dilligently patches it out. Take Void Rays for example. Such "unintended features" are what made BW BW. Same for Quake 3 and CS. They all had those.
Also, as someone mentioned above, sc2 units are too mobile. And there are some broken mechanics that will eventually get nerfed into insignificance.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about
I really don't see what you're trying to say here. From what I see, the maps that "challenge sc2 play" are usually garbage (talking about blizzard maps). The most acclaimed maps were largely inspired by the BW map making school (iCCup, GSL maps).
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
It's not as much about players having refined their play in BW, as it is about the BW engine, the bugs that actually enhence the gameplay, the counter system that is neither hard nor soft, but rather based on micro and positioning, the nature of each race, and so on.
Sc2 by design sacrifices both skill "floor" and "ceiling" for the sake of accessibility. Smart-casting resulted in overnerfed spells and the lack of really game changing spells, MBS/auto-mining resulted in managing 4-6 bases being as easy as managing just 1-2, as well as less multi-tasking demands, the new pathing, hard counters and DPS changes caused ball vs. ball gameplay and 1 second long battles, and so on, and so on.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
I used to believe sc2 would surpass BW, but I've seen blizzard's track record. They're doing the opposite of what they should be doing to make sure sc2 lives up to BW. The game is pretty much devoid of micro (not only compared to BW, but also WC3 and even some CNC games), lacks multi-tasking, and has other problems I've mentioned. Blizzard has some inexplicable problems with addressing the problems with their ladder mappool. Not to mention the failure that is BNet "2.0" and the lack of LAN, as well as the KeSPA negotiations fiasco (should've just let KeSPA handle the esports side of sc2 - it would've been at least twice as large by now).
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
Why is supporting a game that's inferior on so many levels much better for esports? The reasons why BW is a better esport material and so many people (even those currently playing sc2 for a living) prefer it over sc2 are not driven by nostalgia. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to imply that nostalgia kept the game alive for so many years. ;;
You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
And thank god people didn't transition to CS:S as it's a crappy, dumbed down version of the original CS. T___T
Bottom line, what's probably better for esports is to stop fighting an already lost battle. Grab some perspective while at it too. Much of what you conclude as fact is just pretty much your very biased opinion. At least try not to let it reek when you're going to defend the game you love. A considerable amount of nostalgia is unavoidable when such a big icon for the whole gaming industry beings to fade, but SC2 is by no means a bad replacement. Give it some credit, enjoy it as the rest of us.
What bias? Huh?
Also BW is not fading, far from it. T____T And sc2 wouldn't be a bad replacement for any other RTS, but it's bad for BW. BW is really something "beyond the game", while sc2 is merely a good game, although with many flaws the developers refuse to address.
Keep in mind SC2 has two more expansions on the way, both of which i'm sure will add more depth to the game. Give it a chance to fully form before you call it "merely a good game"
On March 08 2011 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote: The fact the game requires less mechanics to play than the original is not his opinion though, it's just true and certainly could harm it's eSports potential in the long run. Personally i don't find as much enjoyment watching pro SC2 because simply it is not impressive
this opinion would not exist if we could link to youtubes of some of the best games in SC2, but unfortunately very few of them are the first game of a series on GOM.
also the OMG thats incredible factor tends to be cerebral instead of physical.
that is it's amazing because they thought of everything, not amazing because they clicked fast.
Kind of like that famous boxer game where he proxy raxed and made a bunch of depots around the map, and then slowly drew the noose tighter and tighter.
On March 08 2011 05:10 maybenexttime wrote:You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
I'd don't usually quote ppl and expand on their comments, but BAM! Talk about 100% hitting the nail on the head! It's too bad Blizzard waited so damn long to build SC2 and got sucked into the "3D" world. The game didn't need a complete makeover. An epic add-on (remember when BroodWar replaced SCraft!) or HD remix would have been a dream come true. I never wanted a NEW scraft, just a better one!
Do you HONESTLY believe that a HD Remix of BW would have increased the TL.net userbase tenfold, had millions of new people playing worldwide and prompted sponsors to pump hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars into the foreign scene?
There's a lot of nostalgia in this thread by but and large the BW (and WC3) community has transitioned into SC2 about as smoothly as any competitive scene I can recall so I don't think the game has been quite the failure some on this forum wish to believe.
How many of the people will stay in the long run though? I don't think anyones saying its a failure (though it's certainly underperformed in the Korean market compared to the rest of the world), but people are worried about the game and if it's worthy for eSports, not that theres millions of casual players who bought it. They won't be around in a few years time anyway.
On March 08 2011 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote: The fact the game requires less mechanics to play than the original is not his opinion though, it's just true and certainly could harm it's eSports potential in the long run. Personally i don't find as much enjoyment watching pro SC2 because simply it is not impressive
this opinion would not exist if we could link to youtubes of some of the best games in SC2, but unfortunately very few of them are the first game of a series on GOM.
also the OMG thats incredible factor tends to be cerebral instead of physical.
that is it's amazing because they thought of everything, not amazing because they clicked fast.
Kind of like that famous boxer game where he proxy raxed and made a bunch of depots around the map, and then slowly drew the noose tighter and tighter.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
On March 08 2011 05:10 maybenexttime wrote:You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
I'd don't usually quote ppl and expand on their comments, but BAM! Talk about 100% hitting the nail on the head! It's too bad Blizzard waited so damn long to build SC2 and got sucked into the "3D" world. The game didn't need a complete makeover. An epic add-on (remember when BroodWar replaced SCraft!) or HD remix would have been a dream come true. I never wanted a NEW scraft, just a better one!
Do you HONESTLY believe that a HD Remix of BW would have increased the TL.net userbase tenfold, had millions of new people playing worldwide and prompted sponsors to pump hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars into the foreign scene?
There's a lot of nostalgia in this thread by but and large the BW (and WC3) community has transitioned into SC2 about as smoothly as any competitive scene I can recall so I don't think the game has been quite the failure some on this forum wish to believe.
How many of the people will stay in the long run though? I don't think anyones saying its a failure (though it's certainly underperformed in the Korean market compared to the rest of the world), but people are worried about the game and if it's worthy for eSports, not that theres millions of casual players who bought it. They won't be around in a few years time anyway.
IMO, I would give it until 2015 after the last patch after the last expansion is released before any final judgement are made about the game's viability as an e-sport. SC1 without BW didn't seem to be particularly mind-blowing as an e-sport, and there is little reason to believe that Blizzard can't turn around SC2 with one or two expansions like they did with BW or even WC3 Frozen Throne. Until then, SC2 is an unfinished product that has tons of untapped potential waiting to be unleashed once the proper tweaks are made.
On March 08 2011 02:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
No, it's not temporary and its roots are not in my appreciation of progamers' skill.
If you compare the micro potential of BW units with their sc2 counterpart you'll see a large gap. People drool over MKP's Marine micro - imagine BW has dozens of units that, if used by a skilled player, can really wreck havoc. SC2 simply doesn't have that.
What's worse, whenever a new trick gets discovered, blizzard dilligently patches it out. Take Void Rays for example. Such "unintended features" are what made BW BW. Same for Quake 3 and CS. They all had those.
Also, as someone mentioned above, sc2 units are too mobile. And there are some broken mechanics that will eventually get nerfed into insignificance.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about
I really don't see what you're trying to say here. From what I see, the maps that "challenge sc2 play" are usually garbage (talking about blizzard maps). The most acclaimed maps were largely inspired by the BW map making school (iCCup, GSL maps).
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
It's not as much about players having refined their play in BW, as it is about the BW engine, the bugs that actually enhence the gameplay, the counter system that is neither hard nor soft, but rather based on micro and positioning, the nature of each race, and so on.
Sc2 by design sacrifices both skill "floor" and "ceiling" for the sake of accessibility. Smart-casting resulted in overnerfed spells and the lack of really game changing spells, MBS/auto-mining resulted in managing 4-6 bases being as easy as managing just 1-2, as well as less multi-tasking demands, the new pathing, hard counters and DPS changes caused ball vs. ball gameplay and 1 second long battles, and so on, and so on.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
I used to believe sc2 would surpass BW, but I've seen blizzard's track record. They're doing the opposite of what they should be doing to make sure sc2 lives up to BW. The game is pretty much devoid of micro (not only compared to BW, but also WC3 and even some CNC games), lacks multi-tasking, and has other problems I've mentioned. Blizzard has some inexplicable problems with addressing the problems with their ladder mappool. Not to mention the failure that is BNet "2.0" and the lack of LAN, as well as the KeSPA negotiations fiasco (should've just let KeSPA handle the esports side of sc2 - it would've been at least twice as large by now).
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
Why is supporting a game that's inferior on so many levels much better for esports? The reasons why BW is a better esport material and so many people (even those currently playing sc2 for a living) prefer it over sc2 are not driven by nostalgia. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to imply that nostalgia kept the game alive for so many years. ;;
You know what would be much better for esports? BW getting its own "HD Remix." Good 2D graphics with maybe small UI adjustments. That way the graphics wouldn't be an instant put-off for the masses, and gameplay could attract a ton of competitive players. Not even Koreans would have problem transitioning to it.
And thank god people didn't transition to CS:S as it's a crappy, dumbed down version of the original CS. T___T
Bottom line, what's probably better for esports is to stop fighting an already lost battle. Grab some perspective while at it too. Much of what you conclude as fact is just pretty much your very biased opinion. At least try not to let it reek when you're going to defend the game you love. A considerable amount of nostalgia is unavoidable when such a big icon for the whole gaming industry beings to fade, but SC2 is by no means a bad replacement. Give it some credit, enjoy it as the rest of us.
What bias? Huh?
Also BW is not fading, far from it. T____T And sc2 wouldn't be a bad replacement for any other RTS, but it's bad for BW. BW is really something "beyond the game", while sc2 is merely a good game, although with many flaws the developers refuse to address.
Keep in mind SC2 has two more expansions on the way, both of which i'm sure will add more depth to the game. Give it a chance to fully form before you call it "merely a good game"
I know that there are two expansions on the way, however, my point is that the game is heading in the wrong direction.
Blizzard refuses to address several of the issues that can be fixed before the expansions, such as micro (Project Micro e.g.), maps (iCCup, GSL), not patching out tricks discovered by players, etc.
I find it highly unlikely that blizzard will fix the engine related issues in either of the expansions either. I also don't expect any radical change in their design philosophy (many dull units, overnerfed spells, broken maps, too many extremely mobile units instead of positional play, hard counters, etc.), because they have confirmed they want to stick to it in many interviews, and, apparently, want to design the game in a predictable way in order to be able to balance it (which is flawed - they have to make the units fun in the first place, then make them require skill to use, and only then try to balance them, otherwise what's the point of having a balanced, but boring game?).
On March 08 2011 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote: The fact the game requires less mechanics to play than the original is not his opinion though, it's just true and certainly could harm it's eSports potential in the long run. Personally i don't find as much enjoyment watching pro SC2 because simply it is not impressive
this opinion would not exist if we could link to youtubes of some of the best games in SC2, but unfortunately very few of them are the first game of a series on GOM.
also the OMG thats incredible factor tends to be cerebral instead of physical.
that is it's amazing because they thought of everything, not amazing because they clicked fast.
Kind of like that famous boxer game where he proxy raxed and made a bunch of depots around the map, and then slowly drew the noose tighter and tighter.
Seriously, even the top sc2 players admit that the game is far from as mechanically demanding as BW. SC2 has maybe a couple units that allow for the kind of micro you see in BW, while BW has plenty of them. Same for spells. Not to mention the fact that BW has very few spells that prevent micro, while in sc2 they're the core spells (FF, Fungal, Marauder's shells).
And you're talking as if BW didn't have any celebral "wow moments," while it actually has more of them (mostly because it's way more refined after so many years).
Also that "clicking fast," as you put it, is extremely mentally taxing in itself. Pretty much anybody is capable of 200-300 APM - by spamming keys or even typing. However, not everyone is mentally capable to translate that speed into meaningful actions within the game.
Take WC3 and BW for example. 300 APM (average) in WC3 is worth less than 300 APM in BW, if you compare the FPVODs, as WC3 progamers tend to fill the downtimes (when they're not in any battle) with spam, so that they can keep up with the speed requirement in battles.
On March 07 2011 18:06 AcOrP wrote: I'm confused by all the posts here to be honest watching SC:BW kept me for years while SC2 lost me for a few months, I think if SC2 replace BW in korea it won't take long till people get bored. I don't find it fun to watch SC2 games anymore not GSL nor anyother tourney, lets see if the expansions bring more entertaiment but if they don't SC2 will die in a year or two...
I have seen similar posts like these. I played a bit of Brood war in early 2000's (01-03ish) then on and off until SC2. But I never got into esports really until SC2. Could hardcore BW viewers elaborate a bit more upon exactly what facets of competitive play are attractive to watch in BW and what turns you off to SC2. I'm curious if its something fundamental in the game design that is unchangable or something temporal that will/could either be patched by the developers or altered by the tournament organizers/team organizers.
What turns me off in sc2? Ball vs. ball gameplay, lack of positioning and micro compared to BW (look up some highlight videos in TLPD/YouTube, especially Jaedong's and JulyZerg's Muta micro, sc2 Muta "micro" pales in comparison), lots of boring spells (because of smart-casting blizzard had to severely nerf plenty of promising spells), dull/broken units (such as Colossus, Immortal, Marauder, etc.; especially considering the fact that they replaced some of the most amazing units in the history of RTS games, like Vultures), comparable lack of mechanical demands, the lack of "bugs" that made the game more varied (like mineral jumping e.g.), horrible maps, the fact that the three races are pretty similar compared to their BW counterparts (in BW playing another match-up is almost like playing another game).
I especially dislike the fact that in sc2 managing 4-5 bases is as easy as managing just 1-2, pretty much. In BW the more bases you have, the more multi-tasking demanding playing the game gets. You have to manage your "screen time" and so on.
I'm sure there are more. If you read this post, tell me if you want me to post some more. ;p
So it is fair to say this is by in large a temporary dislike of the game based on expectations you have created from professional players building on 12 years of trial and error, history and practice. We are starting to see more games where unit positioning is becoming more and more important with "death ball" strategies becoming less and less powerful as opponents adapt.
I think over time, as we get better maps that are designed to challenge SC2 play, and not try to convert BW play into SC2, we will see a return of that excitement you were talking about.
I don't watch a whole lot of BW, but I would have no problem agreeing that the players in that game are definitely more refined and are cognitive of the tons of subtleties and strategies they can expereince, while SC2 pros are still feeling around for that complete "game sense" or "star sense" top tier BW players have.
Again I do not have the same emotional investment or history with BW that many of you have, but I think its a little harsh to imply SC2 will forever be inferior to BW. I really think it could eventually surpass it if given enough time and care (and Blizzard, for the love of god, stops listening to their official forums. Have you see that place?! It makes you want to kick a baby.)
Not going to happen unless Blizz decides to move away from their hard counter system. SC2 lacks units who can completely wreck the opposing side because of how they are designed and how they function, not because they have some arbitrary damage bonus against a certain type of unit.
Unit positioning is also not as important when most units are extremely mobile. SC2 needs more siege tank-type units that are more powerful when positioned correctly but can't have their positioning changed easily. Not to mention that the SC2 siege tank is weaker than the BW siege tank.
Mobility isn't all that common in SC2. Zerg need upgrades and creep to be tactically mobile early game. Zealots are kinda slow without upgrades along with the mothership, void rays, HT's, Obs, Warp Prisms, etc. Terran have Thors, Siege tanks, BC's, etc. So I think that unit positioning is more of a factor regarding map layout then the current units directly (which do still need some tweaking). Maps designed around SC2 mechanics and units instead of transplanting Brood War design elements and logic would yield far better games, because SC2 is not BW (obviously). But it bears repeating because you cannot simply copy and paste strategies, maps, and game sense between the two, which is a factor I think that contributes to the polarized community.
Also, I am not sure what you meant by one unit that can completely wreck the opposing side because of how they are designed and how they function. That sounds horrible for balance.
@maybenexttime
By the map thing I meant maps that designed with SC2 mechanics and game design in mind rather then mapmakers copy and pasting BW maps and expecting BW-like results in SC2. The game needs to develop more and map makers need to develop maps that capitalize and are balanced around the unique designs on SC2 and not try to emulate BW-style maps. I do agree though I Blizzard's lack of apparent attention to the 3rd party map makers in regards to streamlining competitive play with the new maps (see vote up system instead of vote down).
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but Blizzard did a lot of patching for Starcraft in the early to mid life span. Only later did they really just drop support for it when SC2 development got underway. Balancing and altering "unintended" things did happen.
I really do see where you are coming from in your criticisms. If you take SC2's design and impart it upon BW style logic and habits, it appears all wrong. And I can't argue against that. If Flash or Jaedong had auto-cast or Mules etc. etc. it would totally be game breaking. But the thing is, SC2 is not BW. Its a different Starcraft experience. And one that admittedly does need refinement and further tweaking. If you are looking for Blizzard to tweak it back into a virtual BW clone, I am sorry but you are going to be sorely disappointed.
SC2 has a lot of potential, and a combination of effective game tweaks to units (perhaps adding a few units here and there) and better map pools I think would really lead you to change your mind. Giving pros more time to develop their game sense and comfort with their races would lead to much more interesting battles and series. But if you keep holding on to the notion that SC2 NEEDS to be BW or else it will fail, your only going to kill the game for yourself.
I think the majority of what you said is not a permanent flaw in SC2. Most can be changed with a patch, a new map or a better composition of players. But what we have right now is a bunch of old Brood War pros, trying to carry over as much Brood War skill as they can and manipulate the game such that it plays out in a Brood War fashion (comfort zone), all the while being viewed by a large portion of the audience who are Brood War fanatics. Your reaction is totally understandable. This is steadily changing, but the key factor here is both games are Starcraft, but SC2 is not BW.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
You're just repeating the 'It has a lot of potential' line that loads of people say, but potential for what? Units that are new such as the Thor lets just say. What potential does a unit like this have? Its a big robot that shoots air and ground. Thats it, it'll never evolve into something more. That's one problem i have with the design. By unit which is powerful enough to win games alone he means something like the reaver; It's completely dependent on your skill and the opponents skill in deflecting it. Or something like muta/wraith patrol harass. There is kiting but that's it really, anyone can kite especially now there's not much reason to have your attention elsewhere. It's not a very 'dynamic' in my opinion in regards to unit design.
Now obviously some things will be too powerful simply because of autocast and mass control. But what is there to replace whats missing? I liked the ideas of forcefield when i heard it, but in practice with autocast it's not as interesting as i first thought. It doesn't need to be like BW but it isn't replacing features of the previous game at all from my point of view. Think of say, MnM vs lurker ling. The battle constantly shifting back and forth and requiring a ton of attention and skill. I just don't see that in SC2.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
What is hard for you to understand? Your example of a good strategic play was FROM Brood War.. I'm asking you to tell me an example from SC2 which is not possible in BW. And again you just repeat this 'potential' line with no explanation. What potential i ask you. In the future all i see is builds being refined better to edge out more units mostly, or unit compositions changing along with patches.
All i'm seeing from SC2 players is this constant mention of potential like theres something coming that somehow we don't know about.. if anything thats the tired argument.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
Its not nonsense. What he is saying is that SC2 probably won't have a depth that just randomly comes into the game after it being played for more than a year. The players that played SC2 had already played BW or WC3 and they are not some noobs with no strategical understanding. Most, if not all of the strategies in SC2 are probably already discovered.
There is no point even saying anything to you because you are clearly just going to ignore it, and since you know don't even know what it means to put things in relative terms and thought that my statement about boxers game was an example and not an attempt to relate the kind of plays in sc2 to a play in sc1.
so i'm not going to respond to the obvious trolling and move on with my life knowing you are incorrect. and that BW and SC2 are both amazing games that are equal.
Also: perhaps you need to watch a certain text to movie about how starcraft's easier mechanics will ruin the competitive warcraft 2 scene and warcraft 2 will be in fact MUCH better.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
Its not nonsense. What he is saying is that SC2 probably won't have a depth that just randomly comes into the game after it being played for more than a year. The players that played SC2 had already played BW or WC3 and they are not some noobs with no strategical understanding. Most, if not all of the strategies in SC2 are probably already discovered.
i agree with this sc2 has evolved at an extremely rapid pace. it left the vehicle on it's feet and sprinted to the finish line. im not sure theres much "evolution" left.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
Its not nonsense. What he is saying is that SC2 probably won't have a depth that just randomly comes into the game after it being played for more than a year. The players that played SC2 had already played BW or WC3 and they are not some noobs with no strategical understanding. Most, if not all of the strategies in SC2 are probably already discovered.
I'll probably need a quote from a top player to confirm that that is true.
Pros are still tweaking their build orders. Maps are still developing, and new maps will probably affect the viability of many strategies in the competitive scene. Certain units are completely underused despite their vast potential (like Reapers and Carriers).
Then again, I'll just stick with my opinion that SC2 is currently unfinished until the last patch of the last expansion is released.
Of course we can't see the potential. If you or I saw it, then everyone else would see it as well, and it would already be known, used and abused. You can't be serious if that's where your argument is going.
I don't care which way Starcraft is going. It's a game, even if it's fun or frustrating to play, boring or interesting to watch. You'd be naive to believe that we're on the frontier of breaking through into mainstream society. While I would like it to go as far in North America as its predecessor did in Korea, you must realize these things don't just happen because it's the "next generation" of Brood War. This is a game. I would like to emphasize that.
If you don't see the value or fun in Starcraft 2, then realize that it's your opinion, not fact. And realize that a game changes. Blizzard wants to milk this cash cow as much as possible, so don't think they are ignorant as to what they need to do. Most of the hate propaganda on the site does not help your opinion of them. They aren't here to just watch it fail miserably. It wouldn't be in their best interests, especially after Kespa.
Finally, stop comparing the two games. It's a completely different game in a completely different direction. And it requires a completely different skill set and outlook. The strategies and ideas that evolved in that game aren't necessarily going to evolve the same way. Meaning stop talking about these fanciful unit engagements and dances like they're the final solution to everything. I don't know what will come. Something new, or something old. But I do know that when, and if, it comes, it'll come. But only if you're dedicated to finding that next step, similar to what other progamers do, instead of sitting here talking about balance and how the games will never replace each other.
Life goes on, and so should you. If Brood War becomes extinct (unlikely), then move on to Starcraft 2 or whatever comes up next. If Starcraft 2 turns out to be a total dud, then go back to Brood War or whatever is next as well. But it is much too early for you to make this decision now.
And don't talk about your clairvoyance about this situation in 5 years.
I'm going to sleep now, so I'll address your post tomorrow.
I just wanted to explain what people mean by mobility. It's not necessarily the units being fast. It's that fact that in BW there were some army compositions (mainly in all Terran MUs, but also PvZ, I'd say) that you had to deploy in order to unleash their true potential. Siege Tanks, Spider Mines, Depots blocking the way, Lurkers, etc.
On top of that, there were other army compositions that relied on the way you attacked, instead of "does my unit composition counter his perfectly?" type of thing.
SC2 has very little of that. It's mostly just ball vs. ball, unit A counter unit B. There are some expections, such as Terran slow pushing with MMTank force with Turrets against Zerg on maps like Shakuras, and Zerg countering with Baneling bombs and such, but that's exactly that - an exception. Things like that actually make me want to play SC2. But then I remember that it also has many units that make that sort of play infeasible in most MUs - Marauders and Immortals mostly, but also Chargelots, Blink Stalkers, etc.
In BW you really had to outplay your opponent on the field (use on-army drops, flank, sandwich, cut reinforcements, distract with another attack, etc.). In sc2 - not so much. You usually just need the right units (which is why I hate the hard counter system you see in sc2).
Imo, SC2 needs WAY more of that (thing liek slow pusing and Baneling bombs I described). This is part of what made BW so good, and its sequel is missing it.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
Its not nonsense. What he is saying is that SC2 probably won't have a depth that just randomly comes into the game after it being played for more than a year. The players that played SC2 had already played BW or WC3 and they are not some noobs with no strategical understanding. Most, if not all of the strategies in SC2 are probably already discovered.
I'll probably need a quote from a top player to confirm that that is true.
Pros are still tweaking their build orders. Maps are still developing, and new maps will probably affect the viability of many strategies in the competitive scene. Certain units are completely underused despite their vast potential (like Reapers and Carriers).
Then again, I'll just stick with my opinion that SC2 is currently unfinished until the last patch of the last expansion is released.
If you know for a fact that carriers and reapers have greater potential, than why don't YOU use them? You can't just assume a unit has more potential than people are currently aware of.
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
Its not nonsense. What he is saying is that SC2 probably won't have a depth that just randomly comes into the game after it being played for more than a year. The players that played SC2 had already played BW or WC3 and they are not some noobs with no strategical understanding. Most, if not all of the strategies in SC2 are probably already discovered.
i agree with this sc2 has evolved at an extremely rapid pace. it left the vehicle on it's feet and sprinted to the finish line. im not sure theres much "evolution" left.
How can you say that the game cannot evolve from where it is at now? There are two more expansions which i'm sure will add more units, change existing ones, and dozens of new strategies will blossom from that.
SC2 isn't completely figured out, and is nowhere near that point.
SC2 can't have same level of "outplay" and "amazing micro" because we're still using bunch of cramped maps with cramped battlefield. Wait till SC2 tournaments all use large custom maps with open battlefields with strategic chokes.
It'll be interesting when these leagues and tourneys have to deal with Blizzard's whims more. BW was at least set in stone; SCII can change at any time.
On March 08 2011 06:33 Selith wrote: SC2 can't have same level of "outplay" and "amazing micro" because we're still using bunch of cramped maps with cramped battlefield. Wait till SC2 tournaments all use large custom maps with open battlefields with strategic chokes.
Well as long as Blizzard is in control of the only ladder... (though i heard they will try to use some gsl maps soon so thats a step in the right direction)
This is the other obvious reply... someone trying to point out the game is more strategical based. But then your example is a BW game.. remember this is a sequel and a LOT of potential strategies have been thought of ages ago anyway. Not everyone can innovate. So what example is there, strategical or mechanical, that is impressive in SC2 in comparison to BW? Cause i just see re-thinking of strategy that people thought of years ago, and re-implementations of old ideas. At the end of the day something like that is hardly even a WOW moment usually, like doing a clever fake such as making your cyber core spin to fake upgrade. Thats cerebral but spectator wise its not exactly exciting.
unsure what you are trying to say with this paragraph of nonsese and tired arguments
but you know whatever i'll let the elitists be and go back to playing my game that is an equal to BW in potential.
Its not nonsense. What he is saying is that SC2 probably won't have a depth that just randomly comes into the game after it being played for more than a year. The players that played SC2 had already played BW or WC3 and they are not some noobs with no strategical understanding. Most, if not all of the strategies in SC2 are probably already discovered.
I'll probably need a quote from a top player to confirm that that is true.
Pros are still tweaking their build orders. Maps are still developing, and new maps will probably affect the viability of many strategies in the competitive scene. Certain units are completely underused despite their vast potential (like Reapers and Carriers).
Then again, I'll just stick with my opinion that SC2 is currently unfinished until the last patch of the last expansion is released.
If you know for a fact that carriers and reapers have greater potential, than why don't YOU use them? You can't just assume a unit has more potential than people are currently aware of.
I currently lack the basic mechanics and fundamentals to implement Carriers or Reapers or any other fancy unit into a successful build ATM. Day9 has often commented on how powerful and underused Carriers are. There is currently a discussion in the dreaded SC2 strat section about the potential of Reaper drops, and in that thread, Drewbie himself had stated that Reaper drops can be quite effective given the situation.
Of course, the units and builds that are used are all heavily map dependent in both SC2 and BW. One simply can't go 3 stargate Carrier or go straight to mech TvZ on every BW map. Likewise, the evolving map pool for the SC2 competitive scene will only prompt the theorycrafting of many more builds that have yet to see the light of day.
Then again, this thread has deviated greatly from its original purpose about the discussion of WCG 2011. I feel somewhat dirty for having contributed to the deviation.
Makes sense that they retire it. Before SC2 I didnt mind the poor graphics when watching BW matches, but since SC2 has come out I just can't look at BW the same anymore.
I'm sure that in a year or so the game will be pretty much all balanced and have a good selection of maps, or marines will get jetpacks and tournaments will just ban the Terran race.
There is a lack of micro in SC2 and/or mechanics? As a protoss player I can't talk about other races, but even the best pro protoss players have yet to use the micro abilities to their fullest.
First of all, the basic unit control is still far from perfect. I still see phoenixes getting killed by flying over enemy things or just sitting there being killed. Second, force field control. People like MC have started showing some very good finesse in their control, someone here in TL.net made a thread that MC actually did a "Forcefield doughnut" in his game vs July, where he first trapped units with forcefield, then split them into parts/pockets so that colossus rays hit maximum number at the same time. Other players use FF to mostly split/block things in a very rough way, but lacking finesse and accuracy.
Protoss lives and dies by army positioning. If you put colossus badly so that vikings or other units can kill them easily, if you put sentries/high templar into groups so that 2-3 ghosts can EMP all of them (especially with removal of the amulet)..etc. It is very hard to control a protoss high tech army properly with all the variables, forcing enemy to fire at certain units (zealots, phoenixes/voidrays) while protecting others (colossus, templar). Oh, attacking at certain places and areas of the map gives a significant advantage to the enemy you have to think about that too.
There's of course blink that is impossible to use perfectly in bigger battles, because things go too fast. Even best players blink stalkers in rows, not invidividually, in bigger battles. Even without blink stalkers are highly mobile and microable. I can't right now think of a protoss unit that doesn't have a very high micro potential. Mothership, maybe. Carrier, maybe.
I haven't seen that many of the SC:BW games so I may be talking out of my a**, but I have a good feeling the fabled SC:BW micro is originating from the fact that is has worse UI than SC2. Thus it gives the illusion of "better mechanics", because you need to have "higher micro skills" just to get around the UI flaws, like control group limitations.
That said, I have yet to see a player that has perfected SC2 protoss micro. I believe there is potential there in SC2 mechanics that even best of the best players have yet to unlock.
SC2 is a game that rewards the better player, as long as the only potential cause of randomness, "the cointoss build order loss", can be gotten rid of. The "forcefield doughnut" (seperating units into piles for faster colossus firing) is just one example of such thing. If anything, players have complained that SC2 is "too fast" and "has too many things to do" for the game to be fair and balanced and interesting. Does that sound like lack of mechanics, or should I say, "does that sound like a low skill roof"?
On March 08 2011 06:20 PrinceXizor wrote: There is no point even saying anything to you because you are clearly just going to ignore it, and since you know don't even know what it means to put things in relative terms and thought that my statement about boxers game was an example and not an attempt to relate the kind of plays in sc2 to a play in sc1.
so i'm not going to respond to the obvious trolling and move on with my life knowing you are incorrect. and that BW and SC2 are both amazing games that are equal.
Also: perhaps you need to watch a certain text to movie about how starcraft's easier mechanics will ruin the competitive warcraft 2 scene and warcraft 2 will be in fact MUCH better.
MBS before MBS.
Why are you even bothering to post if you can't come up with a single example to support your argument? Warcraft 2 is a terrible comparison cause it's got only 1 viable race for a start. Strategically it's miles apart, while BW is not miles apart from SC2.
On March 08 2011 06:25 Blisse wrote: Of course we can't see the potential. If you or I saw it, then everyone else would see it as well, and it would already be known, used and abused. You can't be serious if that's where your argument is going.
I don't care which way Starcraft is going. It's a game, even if it's fun or frustrating to play, boring or interesting to watch. You'd be naive to believe that we're on the frontier of breaking through into mainstream society. While I would like it to go as far in North America as its predecessor did in Korea, you must realize these things don't just happen because it's the "next generation" of Brood War. This is a game. I would like to emphasize that.
If you don't see the value or fun in Starcraft 2, then realize that it's your opinion, not fact. And realize that a game changes. Blizzard wants to milk this cash cow as much as possible, so don't think they are ignorant as to what they need to do. Most of the hate propaganda on the site does not help your opinion of them. They aren't here to just watch it fail miserably. It wouldn't be in their best interests, especially after Kespa.
Finally, stop comparing the two games. It's a completely different game in a completely different direction. And it requires a completely different skill set and outlook. The strategies and ideas that evolved in that game aren't necessarily going to evolve the same way. Meaning stop talking about these fanciful unit engagements and dances like they're the final solution to everything. I don't know what will come. Something new, or something old. But I do know that when, and if, it comes, it'll come. But only if you're dedicated to finding that next step, similar to what other progamers do, instead of sitting here talking about balance and how the games will never replace each other.
Life goes on, and so should you. If Brood War becomes extinct (unlikely), then move on to Starcraft 2 or whatever comes up next. If Starcraft 2 turns out to be a total dud, then go back to Brood War or whatever is next as well. But it is much too early for you to make this decision now.
And don't talk about your clairvoyance about this situation in 5 years.
Sorry this is silly, If you can't see the potential why do you and others keep saying it's got potential... when people say that i assume they mean a similar situation to BW, where we knew back many years beforehand units such as the Defiler and Arbiter had potential. You definitely could see it coming. But it was the mechanical side of things that needed to be improved to realize the potential, whereas there's no such limitation now, so therefore it cannot have the same long term evolution, in my view.
Where did i say it's anything other than my opinion though? I gave enough reasoning for my opinions at least, surely. I don't see why we wouldn't compare them considering it's the sequel. As for the thing about the game spreading further to the mainstream i'm not sure where i implied anything of the sort, i've got no illusions as to how far this game will spread. As for comparing the two, of course we are comparing it to the first game in the series. Why wouldn't we, i mean it's directly comparable, the concepts learned in BW are going to use in SC2 and the game is very much based on the original. Even the map design with things like destructable rocks are ideas from KeSPA's maps.
I'm sticking with watching and playing Brood War and occasionally seeing how SC2 has progressed.. I care which way it's going because we are in a thread which is about a BW tournament closing and effectively ending foreign BW completely, while lawsuits continue which may basically end the rest of BW in Korea too.
On March 08 2011 06:48 Greentellon wrote: I haven't seen that many of the SC:BW games so I may be talking out of my a**, but I have a good feeling the fabled SC:BW micro is originating from the fact that is has worse UI than SC2. Thus it gives the illusion of "better mechanics", because you need to have "higher micro skills" just to get around the UI flaws, like control group limitations.
This is a common misconception, and yes large armies were harder to micro because of 12 unit limit. But what's the UI got to do with muta/wraith micro, reaver control etc. That's simply just something lacking from the game, nothing to do with limitations or autocast.
This is much better than WCG not having ANY Blizzard games. I hope War3 still stays!
I don't see why it's such a big deal to consolidate all progamers to a single game. I think that it makes the community much stronger. I understand we all love Broodwar, but imagine if we had different basketball leagues playing with different rules of different eras.
I think that a lot of what you said though is based on pros having a lot of time to develop those strategies. By potential in SC2 I mean, no unit design is inherently flawed such that those epic battles and multi-faceted strategies can't be done. Units need some slight tweaking, Players need to definie those tactics and most importantly we need the maps to allow these tactics to be implemented. But what I was saying was the end result, while it maybe be equally complex to perform, most likely will not be BW style combat.
@maybenexttime
The ball vs. ball thing really seems less of a gameplay mechanic and more like players are not needing to use those more elaborate tactics on such small maps. One death ball can effectively cut routes by itself. But look at games such as SanZenith versus NesTea, it wasn't death balls that won it. It was multi pronged warp prism harass combined with army positioning that did a lot of it. I think games like that are a hint of what is possible when two high level players are given the proper environment to play. Combine that with some better tweaking and increased average game sense among top tier players and those battles that require set up are indeed likely.
On March 08 2011 06:20 PrinceXizor wrote: There is no point even saying anything to you because you are clearly just going to ignore it, and since you know don't even know what it means to put things in relative terms and thought that my statement about boxers game was an example and not an attempt to relate the kind of plays in sc2 to a play in sc1.
so i'm not going to respond to the obvious trolling and move on with my life knowing you are incorrect. and that BW and SC2 are both amazing games that are equal.
Also: perhaps you need to watch a certain text to movie about how starcraft's easier mechanics will ruin the competitive warcraft 2 scene and warcraft 2 will be in fact MUCH better.
MBS before MBS.
Sorry, but that's not true.
BW is more balanced than SC2, and has more depth than SC2, and that's not because of technical skill requirements, but because of units like Lurkers and Reavers, who are used for Zoning/controlling space, which is something that just doesn't exist in SC2, outside of the Terran race (and that's probably why a lot of pepole find TvT as the best mirror matchup and one of the most interesting matchups overall, since Terran has those units).
It is also true that pepole will find the better strategies faster in SC2 than they did in BW, since they have more experience.
However, you really can't compare them just like that, since BW is an expansion pack, and SC2 is still the first game, who knows what will be added to SC2 in it's following expansions, and what effect will it have on the game's balance and depth.
This is a common misconception, and yes large armies were harder to micro because of 12 unit limit. But what's the UI got to do with muta/wraith micro, reaver control etc. That's simply just something lacking from the game, nothing to do with limitations or autocast.
All micro is UI, he's saying that all micro is not equal. Features like limited control groups were not universally liked.
The ONLY reason why BW continued and will continue to exist as an e-sport in korea is because of its balance. Professional BW competition is only possible because the game is so perfectly balanced. Think about that sentence. It is very huge.
with this in mind, we naturally come to the question of whether or not its sequel, SC2 is as balanced as it is. They are coming out with new expansions and SC2 as an e-sport is in its infancy so its too early to tell. This is a matter of time. Give SC2 the test of time and if the developers are able to change the game so that it is as balanced as BW, then SC2 will stand as a successful e-sport on its own. If not, then expect SC2 to disappear, like hundreds of games in the past. You cannot make a game an e-sport if players do not feel the mechanics are fair.
Games like command and conquer, age of empires II, rise of nations, etc etc, these are all games that have pretty fun gameplay and cool storylines like brood war. But none of them are e-sports because none are balanced ingame. Granted, no one ever tried to make those games into e-sports but they never did because no one thought the game was balanced (and also those were not as hugely popular as BW was).
This is why SC2 is taking a huge gamble. They are forcing it into an e-sport when nobody knows that it is balanced or viable to play in the long run. If in the end, people are unhappy about the mechanics, then it will crumble. If not, then great, e-sports can grow even more. Don't compare it to the growth of the BW professional scene. BW was a total accident in south korea that just happened to turn out amazing. SC2 is different, and like I said, we need to give it time before we can make any kind of conclusions.
hopefully korea makes a new turney, because korean wcg were always great. i just remember on games like bisu vs flash on heartbreakbridge but i dont think this hurts the foreigners, since the most switched to sc2.
This is a common misconception, and yes large armies were harder to micro because of 12 unit limit. But what's the UI got to do with muta/wraith micro, reaver control etc. That's simply just something lacking from the game, nothing to do with limitations or autocast.
All micro is UI, he's saying that all micro is not equal. Features like limited control groups were not universally liked.
I don't think me or anyone else is saying limited control groups should be in SC2. I agree that not all micro is the same, but simply there's really no equivalent to some units like the reaver. Also as mentioned, the units which are used to control space like the lurker are gone too which is another dynamic gone from the combat.
On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote: This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward.
You're entitled to your opinion, but as of right now, the same reasons people stay with BW are the exact same reasons people refused to switch to CS:S. The gameplay is just so much more balanced. The reason I said "right now" is because I want to reserve judgment until all of the expansion packs for SC2 come out, and then give it another half year or so to see how the game evolves. If by 2014 (or whatever the date is), the games continue to be somewhat like the games we have now, SC2 is fucked.
I think almost all of the current SC2 pros share the sentiment that BW is the superior game right now, but since it is almost impossible to break into the BW scene as a foreigner, coupled with great prize money and sponsorships worldwide, the only chance for a foreigner to go pro is with SC2.
Agreed, I just like the units and the mechanics better. I played SC2 for a while because a lot of my friends played, and it was fun... for a while. The units are so lackluster... The marauder, roach, immortal, colossus feel like such boring units. Thor and marauder don't even fit in with the terran theme, the BC already occupies that role. The roach doesn't really fit in with the zerg theme either. There's also the terrible terrible damage, terrible terrible range, and terrible terrible supply count syndrome. Then there's the deathball; maxed out armies are also much smaller in unit count, and take up less room, so large fights have nothing on BW tvp or zvp battles, which can take up more than 2 screens. There is much less variation between the races, like all races possessing low dps 'tanks' like marauder and roach, which really belongs to protoss.
Then there's the gameplay. Automine and MBS means macro is no longer a difficult skill, the pure macro player no longer exists, since you don't need to dedicate that much effort to macro. Even protoss macro in BW is harder than SC2 zerg macro. Also, micro is easier too, with good unit AI, smartcast, infinite unit selection. Smartcast is especially disgusting; even newbs can carpet storm with ease, spam fungals, clone feedback. Micro just isn't very impressive. In BW, you see a good flank with lurker ling wreck your MnM army, you respect your opponent for the move. In SC2, you see some terran kite your army with marauders, or carpet storm, and you really aren't impressed, since you could easier pull it off as well.
Also, BW UI allows for more defined playstyles. If your macro is good, you can roll your opponent, if your micro is good, you can destroy their armies with ease and win early. If your multitask and army control is good, stall for the lategame to abuse your advantage.
I'm sure all of these points have been beaten to death already, but this is how I feel. I play SC2 for casual games and to relax, I play BW when I wanna be competitive.
I see no reason not to have good unit pathing, smartcast, mbs or automine in a 2010 game made with a much bigger budget and aimed at a much bigger market. This is not 1998 anymore, where video games were a much smaller market than today, and technology/internet/advertising wasn't anything close to today. This is game that is going to be played by alot of players and to increase the game's appeal to the to masses, there is nothing wrong with removing some pointless restrictions.
Where do you draw the line anyway? Why have the building rally points then? Why can't you just take every single unit the moment they appear and manually send them to wherever you'd like? That sounds much more important to me in relation to the game compared to repetitive and monotonous actions that you are going to perform no matter what course the game takes. You will always mine, build and move the units around. There is nothing wrong with removing some pointless restrictions that hamper the players from executing the plan in their mind unless they practice on how to get around the unnecessary obstables that could easily be removed. I only don't like smartcast. In my opinion, if we are to have smartcast, then the casters should be limited in number (i.e no more than 4-5 spellcasters per game can be trained for each race) and their energy, so that it wouldn't be that easy to just spam shit all over the place, as players would have to be careful to get the best worth out of it. I feel the same for Colossus, restrict it to 4-5 per game. (the limit where things get out of hand for the opposing player) If it it's going to be a 1-a unit, reduce the effectiveness of the 1-a, stop the abusive applications of the strategies that involve the unit.
Don't get me wrong, I REALLY enjoy watching BW. It is one of the greatest games of all time, yet it was a game that belonged to its own era. If the stars did not align and the things did not take off in Korea, it could have still been remembered as a great game (as it was a marvelous strategy game) but the competitiveness and the difficulty of the gameplay could have prevented it from being a popular game. It is the dedication, hard work, and effort of those great man who took up to the task and created wondrous displays out of it, showing what it is capable of, that made SC1 the jewel of e-sports. Don't expect another BW from SC2. They are fundamentally similar, yet different, both equally exciting and both with flaws. SC2 is a children of the new, global gaming industry, where profit is on the line first and foremost. Brood War belong to an era where love was the major factor in making games, and Blizzard showed how well they can do when they embrace their passion in game making.
Personally I would've enjoyed seeing more Brood War but I suppose that at it's WCG's call. I mean there have only been a few foreigners coming CLOSE to winning a Finals over a Korean anyway, right?
I want to point out that for everyone who is talking about the "potential" of sc2, well lets go back to the main topic: WCG shouldn't put a game on its roster just because it has Potential. We are talking about the worlds biggest and only cyber games tournament, should they just bring any game that has the Potential to be good? no, they should only bring games that ARE good, and have PROVEN it.
On March 08 2011 07:53 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out that for everyone who is talking about the "potential" of sc2, well lets go back to the main topic: WCG shouldn't put a game on its roster just because it has Potential. We are talking about the worlds biggest and only cyber games tournament, should they just bring any game that has the Potential to be good? no, they should only bring games that ARE good, and have PROVEN it.
(like bw! ) ( )
They bring in games that are popular, and are competitive worldwide. More specifically, they need games that bring in the most sponsor dollars, although in addition to this they also have to consider how international a game is because that's part of what the WCG represents. They've clearly made that decision here.
I don't mean to offend anyone, just those who make subjective comments on what games are good, and which games have proven it.
On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote: Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
They bring in games that are popular, and are competitive worldwide. More specifically, they need games that bring in the most sponsor dollars, although in addition to this they also have to consider how international a game is because that's part of what the WCG represents. They've clearly made that decision here.
I don't mean to offend anyone, just those who make subjective comments on what games are good, and which games have proven it.
Not sure about the competitive part but aside from that your comments are spot on, which is why esports is such a joke; something that is meant to be competition has now turned into a popularity contest. You need to respect BW for esport in the west to have any legitimacy.
And why are even comparing the timelength for the game that has existed theres probably been 10 games of sc2 played for every BW game in the last 3 years, still no awe inspiring evolution that everyone keeps hoping for ( except for the patches but talking about that would just be stupid).
And why the hell does everyone keep taking Day9's word as bible, I'm pretty sure he makes those videos to help you think for yourself, give your own reasons for why a unit has potential. Besides, you might as well ignore what Day9 says about potential with the way the patches are going.
On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote: Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
Don't even try to make since of that comment. Logic is being defied repeatedly on this thread.
On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote: Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
Yeah i'm sorry but...you aren't tearing down anything to make way for sc2. the BW scene is already dying, he's saying "don't keep trying to save it, move on". Which is what BW players really need to do IMO
Honestly I don't care that much. As far as the foreigner scene goes many of the players I care about have already moved to SC2 awhile ago. The Korean BW scene that we all love is still alive and kicking though and that's where the best games have always been played.
Although I must say this news makes me feel bad for the budding BW foreigner star Zim. He was just taking off and he had so much potential. On the other hand we have less risk of Kal drowning to death so that's a plus.
Ehhh. WCG was where I watched the best foreigners get roflstomped by Koreans, and with no offense to G5, With the majority of the foreign scene moving to SC2, It's not quite the same.
On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote: Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
I dunno about tearing it down. I don't think anyone seriously would suggested that, unless they were trolling. But in terms of attempting to forcibly prop it up in places where its not so stable instead of devoting those resources to another, ideally more profitable, outlet is what people are getting at. Brood War will not die in Korea any time soon, but Globally it doesn't have the same presence as SC2. And when you deal with the World Cyber Games, they need to focus on the global title. It would be artificially propping it up if they kept it going (even ignoring the current legalities).
The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
On March 08 2011 10:42 yawnoC wrote: Nice move by WCG. I normally agree with the decisions that WCG makes ... except for there announcement of LoL being a main game ... bleh on that fact.
Yeah same here. Not surprised that SC2 made it, but LoL?????????????????? Come on.
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
When was BW ever a world game? It was all about the koreans
There is no longer any reason to watch WCG haha. Maybe for WarCraft III ? I guess.. Probably not. SC1 is still the only game that I think is worthy of the name Sport.
On March 08 2011 11:45 Chef wrote: There is no longer any reason to watch WCG haha. Maybe for WarCraft III ? I guess.. Probably not. SC1 is still the only game that I think is worthy of the name Sport.
Yup, goodbye WCG. You will forever be missed T_T. Even though it is a logical choice for WCG to just go SC2, I feel kind of remorse about that decision.
after thinking about it it makes more sense, all the americans have moved on from sc1 to sc2, im not sure about other foriegners, but itll be another MSL or OSL with a few foreigners who will get eliminated in group stage
On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote: Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
Yeah i'm sorry but...you aren't tearing down anything to make way for sc2. the BW scene is already dying, he's saying "don't keep trying to save it, move on". Which is what BW players really need to do IMO
No thanks. Both playing/watching SC2 is extremely boring.
As long as ICCUP/brain/etc are still active and the pro-scene in Korea is strong, I have absolutely no intention of moving on.
On March 08 2011 13:23 frodoguy wrote: So why couldn't they have BW and SC2 alongside?
It costs money to run a global tournament. And since the BW since has for the most part been concentrated down to Korea, the whole "world" aspect of the tournament kinda falls through. SC2 on the otherhand is new and globally popular and I am sure they are banking on it being around for sometime to come.
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
An out-of-date and unchanging old game like BW has been up and running strongly for 10 years in a country that thrives on continuous rapid changes and a superficial society. That is something special, something no other games (except maybe cs) has shown, because BW isnt measured by such superficial aspects, but something more meaningful that somehow appeals to the audience.
Nowadays, korean mainstream music is all about pretty girls rather than talent. Who would have thought that an old window 95 game would still be alive in a place like that? I really hope it remains strong.
i dont get the cs:s comparison. cs:s isn't a whole new game. sc2 is. cs:s can be considered a graphical update with major patch-like engine/balance changes, but nothing fundamental really changed. bw->sc2, now, that's a different story.
that said, i know which is the better e-sport right now on the global scene, but i also know which of the 2 is fundamentally the better game. shame they chose the former. last wcg FvJ was epic! EPIC!!! i'll gladly take a temp ban if the sc2 wcg produces any games close to that scale and excitement.
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
this is completely wrong, BW sucked to watch as a non playing spectator until 2005. and SC2 is great to watch now. but i couldn't convince any of the elitists in this thread that the earth is round because i'm a sc2 player and they inheirently ignore my arguments.
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
this is completely wrong, BW sucked to watch as a non playing spectator until 2005. and SC2 is great to watch now. but i couldn't convince any of the elitists in this thread that the earth is round because i'm a sc2 player and they inheirently ignore my arguments.
right, because you were watching BW before 2005 without prior knowledge of games after 2005. Of course, you can speak for all of the viewing audience that had thoroughly enjoyed watching BW before 2005, nevermind that it was 2005 and before that had some of the highest recorded live turnouts for games! ALL of those people (and girls!) had such indepth knowledge of the game yea?
On March 08 2011 10:35 allecto wrote: The key here was that BW was completely unbalanced in its early stages. SC2 will catch up soon enough. The fact is BW is no longer a "world" game whereas SC2 is.
Even though BW was unbalanced early on it was still incredibly fun to play and observe. There is literally nothing of the like in SC2, and blizzard continues to make to no effort to adopt what made bw successful into sc2. As long as it remains that way SC2 might not go as far as to die out relative to other contemporary games but in the sense that it was expected to surpass BW, it will surely die out.
this is completely wrong, BW sucked to watch as a non playing spectator until 2005. and SC2 is great to watch now. but i couldn't convince any of the elitists in this thread that the earth is round because i'm a sc2 player and they inheirently ignore my arguments.
Its hard for "us elitests" to take your argument seriusly with such blanket statements. Obviously people have enjoyed watching both games from the begining.
Just look at the size of the croud. Any of the pre 2005 osl/msl finals will do, but I like this one from 2002
This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
i'm in the first group but i like sc2 a little bit better because i played sc2 and not so much BW (i played vanilla and then quit and started watching BW games in 03.
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
Okay, then add 12 years of tactical and RTS game refinement to the first group. But I still think there is a jaded perspective beyond that that is a contributing factor.
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
Okay, then add 12 years of tactical and RTS game refinement to the first group. But I still think there is a jaded perspective beyond that that is a contributing factor.
There isn't. Otherwise explain to me why so many people here on TL liked Armies of Exigo so much? It certainly wasn't nostalgia, as the game was developed by a small Hungarian studio and had a fantasy setting. It just happened to have a largely BW-inspired gameplay (it also had many UI improvements sc2 has, but the developers made a better job than blizzard in making sure it doesn't affect the game too negatively).
Its a real shame. I always thought WCG's biggest event was BW.
Correct me if I I'm wrong, but wasn't there a post on TL about how Samsung (one of WCG's biggest sponsors) was threatening to drop their funding if WCG didn't pull out their Blizzard sponsors since they (samsung) was worried about the lawsuits against Kespa and co.
It's kinda pointless to argue that sc2's graphics are better than BW. Of course it is. People who like BW aren't blind fanboys waving their manifesto.
It's more like, is the improvement in graphics enough to make up for the deterioration in gameplay? Who designed sc2, anyway? Mr. Terrible Damage has some explaining to do. You host an open beta for 6 months, notice that everyone is 1-basing and cheesing, and then in retail it has still been the same thing. Balance is another issue; the fact is that the core gameplay is just not what most BW people appreciate: big bases, many expos, huge battles, high skill ceiling.
On March 08 2011 15:50 shadymmj wrote: It's kinda pointless to argue that sc2's graphics are better than BW. Of course it is. People who like BW aren't blind fanboys waving their manifesto.
It's more like, is the improvement in graphics enough to make up for the deterioration in gameplay? Who designed sc2, anyway? Mr. Terrible Damage has some explaining to do. You host an open beta for 6 months, notice that everyone is 1-basing and cheesing, and then in retail it has still been the same thing. Balance is another issue; the fact is that the core gameplay is just not what most BW people appreciate: big bases, many expos, huge battles, high skill ceiling.
the players who are only 1 basing and cheesing are plummeting out of tournaments faster than zergbong did in BW.
often youu see 4 base vs 4 base and upwards in sc2 now. similar to BW.
hell we had a GSL game where it was 3 base to 2 base before spawning pool and rax were complete and that was completely reasonable to see again.
You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
That's a case of both players wanting to play a macro game. Anyway, the situation at very high level play is improving, but over here in high diamond I still mostly 2-base if not 1. Surely you agree that there has been a lot of complaints about 1 basing, 2 basing, etc. since retail, whether or not due to the maps, these issues should have been rectified a lot sooner.
I recall Mr. Terrible Damage calling the 2 rax all in "rubbish" only like a month ago. Y'know, that's not really true. What's garbage is that the game has been designed that way. I have been using it quite extensively in the past, so any strategy that has been getting me a lot of wins cannot possibly be rubbish. Blame the game.
On March 08 2011 16:06 shadymmj wrote: That's a case of both players wanting to play a macro game. Anyway, the situation at very high level play is improving, but over here in high diamond I still mostly 2-base if not 1. Surely you agree that there has been a lot of complaints about 1 basing, 2 basing, etc. since retail, whether or not due to the maps, these issues should have been rectified a lot sooner.
I recall Mr. Terrible Damage calling the 2 rax all in "rubbish" only like a month ago. Y'know, that's not really true. What's garbage is that the game has been designed that way. I have been using it quite extensively in the past, so any strategy that has been getting me a lot of wins cannot possibly be rubbish. Blame the game.
if good players can deal with it but bad players can't then it's the games fault?
i suppose 4 pools and lurker drop rushes made brood war a highly imbalanced and dumb game?
no it didn't.
Besides SC2 will only get better. if there is one thing blizzard always seems to do with success, it's create expansions that drastically improve the game:
I can understand the frustration of some of the BW players attacking SC2 here. It's a natural thing to feel when "your game" gets replaced.
BW, you had an amazing run. It had amazing longevity like few other games - its place in the gaming hall of fame is assured.
With that said, bring on SCII at the World Cyber Games! We should be seeing some amazing action there. The SC2 tournament probably won't be able to achieve the same level of significance it had for BW's foreign scene since there are so many other great international tournaments out there for SC2 already, but here's hoping they can mould it into a high profile SC2 tournament anyway. :D
All I'm seeing from the soft/hard defenders of SC2 is the same, tiring points that BW "elitists" addressed about 1000 times over during the peak of BW vs SC2 flame wars.
At this point I'm pretty convinced most of the people spewing similar points were too lazy to read through the pages of debate on virtually any Blizzard vs. Kespa thread.
On March 08 2011 16:05 KevinIX wrote: You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
The majority doesn't justify that everyone enjoys sc2 well if the majority includes thousands of 13 years old kids and 18 year old age as a group which actually signifies that sc2 is a great game than it's sad you have to realize that the game has change so much at the sight of sc2 graphics when i play the game I felt everything was wrong with the game from the spawning of the scv and to the sound of scv greeting felt so wrong . It is a different game at it's core it's no longer the bw unit we all use to know . Sc2 is on a different engine and it can never be the same how could you say it's the same game baffles me . Sc1 was not succeded by bw it merely expands the game play of SC BW by adding a few units on the other hand sc2 ??? It's a whole freaking new ball game thus leading to people not accepting it .Do you see sc2 expanding the universe of sc bw ? Nope it doesn't at all it merely pick and choses which units are not comfortable in their theory crafting and dispose them away . Everytime i look at the graphics i just want to puke at the sight of it sorry for my own personal biasness as BW to me hold's a very special place thus the emergence of sc2 really shook my special place by removing my only opportunity to see a LIVE BW game in reality has been taken away and due to selfishness of Blizzard to garnered all the money it can find by exploiting the old broadcasting that has support them and promote the game for years .
Sc2 is not a successor it as an rebel that outcast the old standards and structure that we all are familiar .
Well, define "bad". I'm probably in the top 3~% of active pop (a little shy of masters), and I tell it like it is. But if even you wish to talk solely about professional level play, I'm not entirely convinced that taking a 3rd-4th is better than simply pushing on 2 base. Highly map dependent, of course, and okay, you get the odd macro game (macro meaning 4, 5 bases each?), but most of it is not like that. And of course you have the train wreck that is sc2 PvP, and ZvZ is maybe even more volatile than in BW (worst matchup by far to watch). I could go on, but I will just point you to the simple fact that you don't ever need more than 3 mining bases in sc2 at any time because:
1. Not enough supply for army 2. Your income is already obscene.
That alone does not exactly encourage taking a far away 4th. I've seen a TvZ analysis thread floating around explaining that in greater detail.
We shall see if it progresses, but currently it is quite undeniable that sc2 has a very cramped, frenetic pace of battle that can end in 5 to 10 seconds, instead of the sprawling epic combat lines that BW had.
Ya this seems fine. BW is great and all but the only people who would show up would be far worse than usual since all the good foreigners stopped playing. Koreans would look even more unstoppable than usual.
On March 08 2011 16:06 shadymmj wrote: That's a case of both players wanting to play a macro game. Anyway, the situation at very high level play is improving, but over here in high diamond I still mostly 2-base if not 1. Surely you agree that there has been a lot of complaints about 1 basing, 2 basing, etc. since retail, whether or not due to the maps, these issues should have been rectified a lot sooner.
I recall Mr. Terrible Damage calling the 2 rax all in "rubbish" only like a month ago. Y'know, that's not really true. What's garbage is that the game has been designed that way. I have been using it quite extensively in the past, so any strategy that has been getting me a lot of wins cannot possibly be rubbish. Blame the game.
if good players can deal with it but bad players can't then it's the games fault?
i suppose 4 pools and lurker drop rushes made brood war a highly imbalanced and dumb game?
no it didn't.
Besides SC2 will only get better. if there is one thing blizzard always seems to do with success, it's create expansions that drastically improve the game:
Diablo 2 LoD, Starcraft BW Warcraft3 TFT ect.
I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums).
The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are
- lack of micro - Ball gameplay.
Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces.
Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it.
I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying.
Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved.
As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return.
The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game.
Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums).
The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are
- lack of micro - Ball gameplay.
Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces.
Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it.
I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying.
Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved.
As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return.
The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game.
Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends
so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with:
marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult
HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first
stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage.
roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach
brood lord move shot infestor play often results in some crazy micro dances
2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place.
3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively.
4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games.
5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
I personally hate SC2 but still think its a good move to remove BW from WCG. I mean there are no pro scen left for BW outside Korea. Who would the koreans play? The top from ICCUP. I mean sure that would be epic fun for those BW scrubs that never made it to the top before SC2 but do we really want to see JD win with 6lings over and over again or Flash just role everybody without even trying?
On March 08 2011 15:13 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This thread basically can be divided into two groups.
The first being those Starcraft enthusiasts who have stuck with Starcraft from the beginning or for at least a number of years prior to Starcraft2's release. This group is both emotionally and historically invested in this game, so the majority of opinions are jaded by nostalgia and fond memories of days long ago. This group "grew up" both figuratively and more than likely realistically with this game as the crux of their gaming hobby. So long as Brood War remains, SC2 will be forever second place in their eyes unless SC2 suddenly adopts a 256x256 color palette and faux 3D sprites.
The second group are people who may have been on and off with the original Starcraft, but have since been reinvigorated by Starcraft2. They have no such emotional or historical attachment and odds are they see a 12 year old computer game with a more than respectable lifespan, but lacks the dazzle or new hotness of SC2. The poor graphics and perhaps even lack of total appreciation for what is happening on screen beyond knowing that its hard, is probably requiring 300 APM and apparently has a unit called the Protoss Reaver, whos Scarab's AI quality makes Solitaire facepalm.
The divide is not something that can be closed with a discussion I think. Only time can heal this polarized wound in the soft underbelly of the Liquid Community. No more pot shots at SC2 not being as perfect as Brood War. No comments about how half of Brood Wars skill is more or less fighting a user interface that was not designed to run higher then 50 APM and is buggy as hell. /inspiring and enviable speech
This is simply not true. I explained to you why so many people prefer BW, and it's not nostalgia...
Okay, then add 12 years of tactical and RTS game refinement to the first group. But I still think there is a jaded perspective beyond that that is a contributing factor.
There isn't. Otherwise explain to me why so many people here on TL liked Armies of Exigo so much? It certainly wasn't nostalgia, as the game was developed by a small Hungarian studio and had a fantasy setting. It just happened to have a largely BW-inspired gameplay (it also had many UI improvements sc2 has, but the developers made a better job than blizzard in making sure it doesn't affect the game too negatively).
I can't really speak to that personally because I don't think I was around TL at the time of Armies of Exigo. But if I had to guess, perhaps you answered your own question. It was an alternative option to BW without being too far from BW?
I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums).
The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are
- lack of micro - Ball gameplay.
Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces.
Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it.
I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying.
Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved.
As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return.
The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game.
Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends
so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with:
marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult
HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first
stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage.
roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach
brood lord move shot infestor play often results in some crazy micro dances
2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place.
3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively.
4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games.
5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
I love watching both BW and SC2, but really? There's a reason why no one bothers doing half of the things you've mentioned. Might as well list viking drops and call that strategical micro.
I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums).
The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are
- lack of micro - Ball gameplay.
Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces.
Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it.
I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying.
Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved.
As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return.
The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game.
Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends
so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with:
marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult
HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first
stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage.
roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach
brood lord move shot infestor play often results in some crazy micro dances
2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place.
3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively.
4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games.
5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
I love watching both BW and SC2, but really? There's a reason why no one bothers doing half of the things you've mentioned. Might as well list viking drops and call that strategical micro.
And I would not call casting a spell with smartcast micro (I can't help laughing when I hear INCREDIBLE STORMS by a sc2 caster). Well, a-move is micro too I guess. I'm waiting for a sc2 incredible micro play topo laugh a bit. And sc2 best macro game remind me a bit of standart late game PvP between average tosses, I'll have to agree, that is a progress.
I will bite, Note that this is the BW forum and you are bound to get fanboys(as you will with the SC2 forums).
The reason personally why I am so skeptical about SC2 has to do with numerous factors, however the most important things for me are
- lack of micro - Ball gameplay.
Now I will tell you that micro can be solved by having each of the units in the new expansions be able to be microed(Lurkers, stop lurkers and perhaps new units who require micro). How much ''skilled'' micro do you actually see here? MKP's rines are the only thing I have seen which are remotely close to what BW had in terms of micro. That is the problem for many of us who watch BW and compare it to SC2. Units are boring, don't get me wrong the Collosi is a unit which has a nice animation and sound to it(Bzzzt) but its a boring unit. It is powerfull but it has no potential to micro with apart from keeping it in the back. The problems are also true with units such as the Marauder, I won't call it OP or anything but the marauder has a slow. While you may think that this leads to micro this can actually work both ways. There is no way to Micro around a marauder slowing your stalker. Remember in BW when a goon could kill practically an infinite number of marines IF microed correctly?That does not work that way here because a stalker is simply slowed and blown to pieces.
Force fields, now let me tell you that I like the concept of force field, it is strong, it requires micro and it can turn the tides of a battle. However the problem is that forcefield is a 1sided micro fest, there is absolutely NO WAY to counter force fields as say a zerg(burrowing roaches not cutting it vs a toss deathball). It is fun to see a protoss use his forcefields properly, but its impossible to micro against it to counter it.
I will post two threads here made by the some people held in high esteem at TL, they are off the Beta but NOTHING has changed from what they have been saying.
Now I have faith that some new micro units will be introduced into SC2 and make the game more micro intensive, however there is a problem which I am skeptical that won't be solved.
As you know so well, (every person tends to bring it up in an argument, can't avoid it). Units clump up in a ball, The Protoss deathball is incredibly effective at this, the problem with this is already outlined in numerous different threads so I won't go deeper into it(that came out wrong). This however will not just be changed in expansions, why?Because this would mean a drastic overhaul of the game engine itself, you are basically making a different game by then. I doubt Blizzard will put the resources and effort to do this with little to no return.
The same problem we see with the Collosi, requiring it to be microed would require a huge overhaul of the unit itself, basically making it a totally different game.
Now I realize this might come off as a huge BW fanboy post, but please do read it, I hope you understand why we as the BW ''elitist fanboys'' think that BW is a superior game to SC2.
ookay just going to respond to points as you bring them up since i'm busy setting up to watch the gsl on a big screen with friends
so units that i've seen some extremely good micro with:
marines tanks using dropships reapers banshee banshees can near perfectly moveshot if done correctly but it's insanely difficult
HT vs Ghost is often a dance of micro and feints in order to get the feedback/emp/snipe off first
stalker blink micro blinking back every wounded stalker before it dies, resulting in won battles without a unit lost godly forcefields collosus warp prism similar to the tank usage.
roaches with burrow, burrowing inbetween each attack to regen more hp than normal resulting in 50-80 more hp a roach
brood lord move shot infestor play often results in some crazy micro dances
2. stalkers can actually blink to avoid marauder fire to avoid being slowed in the first place.
3. ultralisks, burrow, drops all counter forcefield when used to do so. as well as infestors fungalling to prevent the sentries from being in range to FF effectively.
4. deathball play is being reduced more and more the later into games we get and the more skilled at fighting it players get. games are slowl turning into massing drawn out battles like in BW. i've seen this in very recent games.
5. a LOT of the stuff in those threads HAS changed. just not to peopel who don't still watch SC2 alot.
Have you ever seen Collosi warp prism being used effectivly(as In doing so much economic damage that it totally sets back the player)? Collosi warp prism is to much of a heavy investment to make it work properly. Not to mention that a unit such as the viking totally denies this typ of harassement(It has far superior range and does +armored to this paper plane)
Actually no, I have watched GSL and I still do it sometimes for funsies, There is no effective counter to Force field, Burrowed roaches is nice and all but does not change the fact that you get obliterated by Collosi during burrow, Ultralisks I agree, they break forcefields(1 thing that has changed). Infestors fungalling sentries?Unless you can get your infestors in range of sentries somehow without them being killed off by units with superior range(Infestors are hella squishie) then I dont see this happen AT ALL.
Banshees movement ill give you that, Reapers are the most simple units really, not to mention that apart from scouting purposes they are almost never used. A attack, hit and run is nothing impressive IMO.
There is some more stuff but I will write it down later if you want.
We should however refrain from derailing this thread, if you want you can PM me with your thoughts.
Now, about bw vs sc2 competition that seems again where the thread has gone: I think the only way to know is to get people who played bw on a high competitive level and do so in sc2, and take their opinions. I was averge icc and im averege diamond, so over all same level. For me BW was better than sc2, but its 1 opinion. There is a lot i agree with in mostly all posts, but i dont really think its even worth talking about it. ILL play more broodwar, and while noone talls me im a retard for playing a old game, i wont call otehrs retards cus of playing a less interesting game :D.
As much as people who just love starcraft will be dissapointed...the casual esports viewer is much more likely to tune into sc2 games over sc1. The out dated graphics alone would turn away the mor casual viewers. Not to mention support for BW as far as future changes goes is pretty much dead. It's only logical to progress to the next game in the series especially with sc2's massive popularity world wide.
removing BW from WCG was a logical and right choice, as soon as money being pumped into SC2 and only SC2, ppl will come and play it. BW is going to be Korean-only video game, that is popular among the old-believers, but, hell it always was! I don't like SC2 and do not watch it, so for me it doesn't change that much, no korean WCG is a sad thing but I guess there are plenty of kids willing to push the buttons in a colorful and dynamic game. As if anyone cares, but I feel like I want to say it. I don't like SC2, because it is sodden with that contemporary video-games spirit of easiness and extreme user-friendliness, where all games turn into some kind of sweet cream-soup suitable for everyone. This is a trend that plagues all modern gaming industry nowadays. Be highly accessible, easy, less difficulty and ambiguity, be more straightforward. (reminds me of this song "a pig, in a cage, on antibiotics") I guess every intelligent person understands, that its all about market and money. Thats why I still play fallout 1,2 and other vintage games, because they seem more real for me, more challenging and so - more honest. This is the greatest difference between SC2 and BW, honesty, its not about pretty graphics or gameplay, its about what do you believe in.
There is one thing you cant argue with no matter what: in broodwar girls came to watch the games and screamed as when seeing some singer coming out from an airplane, in sc2,.... quite silent :D
On March 08 2011 19:24 iloveav wrote: There is one thing you cant argue with no matter what: in broodwar girls came to watch the games and screamed as when seeing some singer coming out from an airplane, in sc2,.... quite silent :D
oh god, I just looked at the official list of games at WCG:
- StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Counter-Strike 1.6 - League of Legends - FIFA 11 - Tekken 6 - Crossfire - Special Force
SC2 and CS 1.6 are the only competitive games worth watching from that list.
Add Quake Live to that and you have the trifecta of entertaining and engaging e-sports that are still going strong and have a lot of player/audience/sponsor support.
From the standpoint of watching BW>SC2 but there's no foreigners left. What foreigners there were last year weren't that good either (Jaedong's second computer opponent?) so it makes sense for WCG to stop it. Though it kind of feels like as if the Olympics dropped basketball back in the mid 90s because there was no competition it was all team USA (could you imagine if they did that now?).
Are people really thinking that WCG should let ICCUP B- players face off against 3 koreans just because BW has been a shitgood game for 12years? You cannot live on history.
On March 08 2011 16:05 KevinIX wrote: You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
Besides your whole post being pretty unimportant, I'd like to address one thing that you said. You say that we're the same community as it was when BW replaced SC1. But if you take a look at this poll, you can see that we're in fact NOT the same community. More than half of people on this site (I assume it's even bigger percentage now) have not played BW, besides maybe a campaign 10 years ago. And this is the main reason why there's even so much fighting in this thread and all the similar threads.
We BW players (and especially here on Teamliquid -.-) were elitist before SC2 was even planned and we were damn proud of it. But now we're combined with other communities (non-BW) and they're calling us up on our elitism
On March 08 2011 22:31 thoradycus wrote: Wow,i didnt know cataclysm is also included...good for arena players i guess..but i thought that WoW arena is dead?
WoW has a million player base, surely WoW arena is not dead. Not to mention that rated battleground will probably be featured aswell.
It's probably just as competitive as League of Legends...which doesn't have much of a scene ^_^
I'm curious why they haven't shafted The Frozen Throne as well. Almost all the big name players are devoting some time into Starcraft instead because there isn't much left of TFT...Maybe next year.
On March 08 2011 21:01 Bobster wrote: SC2 and CS 1.6 are the only competitive games worth watching from that list.
Add Quake Live to that and you have the trifecta of entertaining and engaging e-sports that are still going strong and have a lot of player/audience/sponsor support.
On March 08 2011 21:27 revy wrote: From the standpoint of watching BW>SC2 but there's no foreigners left. What foreigners there were last year weren't that good either (Jaedong's second computer opponent?) so it makes sense for WCG to stop it. Though it kind of feels like as if the Olympics dropped basketball back in the mid 90s because there was no competition it was all team USA (could you imagine if they did that now?).
Man you really need to look up the results of the Seoul Olympics. And even if there are no foreigners the top Koreans duking it out is the better show imho.
- StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Counter-Strike 1.6 - League of Legends - FIFA 11 - Tekken 6 - Crossfire - Special Force
What a joke, literally no reason to watch now.
Wtf is that....
WC3, SC2, CS 1.6 are the most competitive of the bunch... but really? LOL over original DOTA.... really? That nerf is worse than BW -> SC2... WOW? Crossfire? Special forces?? So jokes...
On March 08 2011 20:26 Garrl wrote: oh god, I just looked at the official list of games at WCG:
- StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Counter-Strike 1.6 - League of Legends - FIFA 11 - Tekken 6 - Crossfire - Special Force
What a joke, literally no reason to watch now.
Wtf is that....
WC3, SC2, CS 1.6 are the most competitive of the bunch... but really? LOL over original DOTA.... really? That nerf is worse than BW -> SC2... WOW? Crossfire? Special forces?? So jokes...
LOL wtf is crossfire and special force?? wtfffff??? this is so sad... bw shouldn't be taken out... let's just see how horrible wcg's ratings are this year.. after the negative response from this new list and the absence of bw, they're going to have to bring bw back :D
On March 08 2011 22:31 thoradycus wrote: Wow,i didnt know cataclysm is also included...good for arena players i guess..but i thought that WoW arena is dead?
MLG pulled WoW arena from it's lineup, there's still a ton of players competing on the various ladders, but the whole community as a whole is a bit terrible... Imagine the strategy forums, with just as many bad threads, but no one ever replies to anything even good threads, people hide what they are doing. So it's kinda hard for them to build an audience but some people still tune in the competitions just to look for the current FOTM.
As for SC2 vs BW... WCG doesn't care at all what we think of either game, they just want viewers, which produce money. There is no foreigner scene for BW anymore... They aren't gonna host multiple world events where foreigners will likely still jump in just for the odd chance of getting a paid trip somewhere to get stomped at the finals. It's sad, but look at the TL stream feed. Numbers speak much much louder than words. This isn't Blizzard pulling the plug. This isn't much of anything else.
What is with them featuring Tekken 6 like fucking MLG did. No one important cares about that terrible fighting game. I'm sure WCG could've gotten rights to SSF4 at the very least for chistsakes(Tho I'd rather see SF3:III but the scene has moved onto SSF4 and since AE i'm more okay with it)
Clearly a sign of times and probably a statement by WCG organization of staying on Blizzards's side by bringing in SC2 and removing BW.
It seems a more relevant sign for the foreign community than actually for the Koreans. It shows how many of us, non-Koreans, left BW and transitioned into other games (SC2 or others), probably on the Korean side it wont shake things much.
saw this coming, but heart broken because of this...
starcraft 1 in WCG was really the only connection to the foreign pro-SC scene... now that that's gone, and SC2 is taking its place, we won't seee that connection again due to the fact that SC2 is nearly 50/50 in "foreign" (i guess we really cant say that anymore) and korean.
RIP BW, we'll miss you in the WCG...
P.S. it would be good to at least put it in, not as a GF, but as a side event... But i support the KCG!!
given the options between no bw or no blizz games entirely wcg had to do what would not destroy their organisation and picked no bw. id have certainly liked to see bw but it wasent really a possibility this time.
i do find it interesting how for every other game you ask the games creator if it can be played, but for bw you have to ask kespa if it can be played.
On March 08 2011 16:05 KevinIX wrote: You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
The transition from the original version of starcraft to BW is not even close to the same as the differences between BW and SC2.
Also, if we don't agree with your tastes we're therefore biased? I understand that some people prefer playing SC2 so why is it so hard for you to accept that some people just like playing and watching BW over SC2. Geesh.
From someone who has no ties to the BW scene whatsoever, it's really no surprise to me that something like this happened after all this Kespa nonsense. It does kinda make me giggle though that everyone who selected a favorite BW team in their profile keeps mentioning how WCG is horrible and is going to fail now.
On March 08 2011 16:05 KevinIX wrote: You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
The transition from the original version of starcraft to BW is not even close to the same as the differences between BW and SC2.
Also, if we don't agree with your tastes we're therefore biased? I understand that some people prefer playing SC2 so why is it so hard for you to accept that some people just like playing and watching BW over SC2. Geesh.
BW doesn't make any sense in the WCG anymore. Koreans have been long dominating and now that there is NO top Foreigners who continue to play bw.... it doesn't really fit the scene at all. You really want to see koreans stomp computers? whats the point
BW isn't a game played around the world anymore, so I understand that it has to come to this. A BW world championship makes no sense when everyone is absolutely terrible except one country.
were going to lose alot of great players, especially Jaedong and Boxer, who refuse to advocate starcraft 2 as an Esport... perhaps they will actually shift into the stacraft 2 scene because of this, this might be a good thing
On March 09 2011 02:55 Kevlar622 wrote: were going to lose alot of great players, especially Jaedong and Boxer, who refuse to advocate starcraft 2 as an Esport... perhaps they will actually shift into the stacraft 2 scene because of this, this might be a good thing
Hardcore BW fan talk here. Are you guys really care about BW not in WCG? What is WCG anyway? Just a poor older cousin of PL/OSL/MSL. Foreign scene is dead anyway, Rest In Peaces WCG, i no longer care about it. If i currently want to watch some B+ foreign play, i can just download some reps or something.
And LOL at SC2 trolls who are thinking this parody of true leagues, that been WCG since 2007, can kill BW when its finaly removed from the game list. Give me a break, this will not make us watching or playing SC2 as long as we have a TRUE leagues in streams and vods. It will not even damage the BW much. SK=SC, and SK is what you must remove first :D
On March 09 2011 02:55 Kevlar622 wrote: were going to lose alot of great players, especially Jaedong and Boxer, who refuse to advocate starcraft 2 as an Esport... perhaps they will actually shift into the stacraft 2 scene because of this, this might be a good thing
You do realize that Boxer has transitioned to SC2?
On March 09 2011 03:05 hitthat wrote: And LOL at SC2 trolls who are thinking this parody of true leagues, that been WCG since 2007, can kill BW when its finaly removed from the game list. Give me a break, this will not make us watching or playing SC2 as long as we have a TRUE leagues in streams and vods. It will not even damage the BW much. SK=SC, and SK is what you must remove first :D
I enjoy the classic happy face emoticon when replying to 'trolls' as to say, "you guys cant get to me! I typed a colon and a capital D ha ha ha!" (side note it appears trolling is a lost art on TL as anyone voicing an opposing opinion is a troll now? lol?)
Anyways what you say is true. SK = SC. SC = starcraft. Stracraft 2 = starcraft. SC2 = SK/USA/Europe/SEA.
Globalized Baby. It's coming...
edit: League of Legends as a title? LOL. what the fuck is all I have to say about that.
On March 09 2011 03:05 hitthat wrote: And LOL at SC2 trolls who are thinking this parody of true leagues, that been WCG since 2007, can kill BW when its finaly removed from the game list. Give me a break, this will not make us watching or playing SC2 as long as we have a TRUE leagues in streams and vods. It will not even damage the BW much. SK=SC, and SK is what you must remove first :D
I enjoy the classic happy face emoticon when replying to 'trolls' as to say, "you guys cant get to me! I typed a colon and a capital D ha ha ha!" (side note it appears trolling is a lost art on TL as anyone voicing an opposing opinion is a troll now? lol?)
Anyways what you say is true. SK = SC. SC = starcraft. Stracraft 2 = starcraft. SC2 = SK/USA/Europe/SEA.
Globalized Baby. It's coming...
And still smaller by far baby. And you know, maybe he's just... right. It can happen to other people sometimes.
On March 09 2011 03:05 hitthat wrote: And LOL at SC2 trolls who are thinking this parody of true leagues, that been WCG since 2007, can kill BW when its finaly removed from the game list. Give me a break, this will not make us watching or playing SC2 as long as we have a TRUE leagues in streams and vods. It will not even damage the BW much. SK=SC, and SK is what you must remove first :D
I enjoy the classic happy face emoticon when replying to 'trolls' as to say, "you guys cant get to me! I typed a colon and a capital D ha ha ha!" (side note it appears trolling is a lost art on TL as anyone voicing an opposing opinion is a troll now? lol?)
Anyways what you say is true. SK = SC. SC = starcraft. Stracraft 2 = starcraft. SC2 = SK/USA/Europe/SEA.
Globalized Baby. It's coming...
And still smaller by far baby. And you know, maybe he's just... right. It can happen to other people sometimes.
I don't understand. How is a Planet smaller than a nation.
Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
BW will never die!! lol had to be the person to say that first. and seriously, I don't know why you say that BW will die. I see the ISL, I see AMAZING games in the proleague, I see LOTS of up and coming players(Hydra, dear). Maybe the game will die eventually, but probably not anytime soon(like 10 years).
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
You definitely did not read a substantial part of this thread, and you probably haven't read most of the huuuuuuuge Kespa vs. Blizzard threads either.
Most BroodWar fans actually gave SC2 a try. Why the fuck wouldn't we watch something that we looked forward to? Something that might have succeeded BW, an amazing game that lasted for 10-11 years?
We have a pessimistic view because SC2 is GARBAGE compared to BROODWAR. If you have the same amount of knowledge for both games, you are objective, and you STILL can say that the average quality of a SC2 game > average quality of a BW game, then great. Each to his own.
And yes, this is pretty much why we hate SC2. Aside from Blizzard trying to shove it down Korea's throat and killing off BW, we are deeply, deeply disappointed with the crap Blizzard released as the successor of such a great RTS game.
And don't give me any of that "oh BW had 12 years" shit. If you really think that point wasn't addressed about a billion times, you really haven't been around TL when things were really heated. And this is coming from a guy who joined in 2010.
On March 09 2011 03:05 hitthat wrote: And LOL at SC2 trolls who are thinking this parody of true leagues, that been WCG since 2007, can kill BW when its finaly removed from the game list. Give me a break, this will not make us watching or playing SC2 as long as we have a TRUE leagues in streams and vods. It will not even damage the BW much. SK=SC, and SK is what you must remove first :D
I enjoy the classic happy face emoticon when replying to 'trolls' as to say, "you guys cant get to me! I typed a colon and a capital D ha ha ha!" (side note it appears trolling is a lost art on TL as anyone voicing an opposing opinion is a troll now? lol?)
Anyways what you say is true. SK = SC. SC = starcraft. Stracraft 2 = starcraft. SC2 = SK/USA/Europe/SEA.
Globalized Baby. It's coming...
And still smaller by far baby. And you know, maybe he's just... right. It can happen to other people sometimes.
I don't understand. How is a Planet smaller than a nation.
In my logic a sport is watched by millions in a single country, it is bigger than a sport watched by one guy in every single country on earth oO
It's a sad progression in the ESPORTS world. But it was entirely foreseeable. Korea essentially had/has a monopoly on top tier BW players, with nobody even coming close to their level. With SC2 the playing field has been semi-leveled, and thanks to the expansion of video games worldwide SC2 made its debut already being hyped as hell. Now it's not just one country with the most skilled players, its (for the most part) Europe and North America in addition to Asia.
We love BW. We don't want to see our cherished game fall. But in the world of ESPORTS games tend to die rather than live on like conventional sports. Will BW live on? That's entirely on the shoulders of Korea. Will SC2 surpass it? Well it has far more countries supporting it than BW does, and that may be all it takes. The real battlefield is Korea, and only time will show us how these 2 games will end up interacting.
A great move imo. SC2 attracts shitloads of attention and rightfully so. Allthough BW is epic you can't expect new players (players who might become pro's in a few years) to begin playing a 12 year old game. A step in the right direction and a good way to promote Esports.
It's not about SC 2 being included, it's about BW not being included. Adding Fifa 11, great move.... 3 RTS games and they don't have the best RTS game? League of legends, good move. Hopefully they come out with SC 3, whether it's the worst game ever or not, so we can further develop/promote e-sports.
Well I think we all knew it would come to this. For my own part Ive mostly come to terms with a life without SC. Still miss it when I think about msl, osl, tsl though. It was great fun.
WCG hosted in South Korea? And no Brood War? This is a big blow to brood war IMO. If it was another country, I would understand, but SK? That's just hard to wrap your brain around honest.
What will the Koreans think? I'm more interested in that since there must be some bad gossip about BW after this is announced. It is no doubt having BW excluded in WCG will decrease BW popularity even in Korea.
And I don't see WCG drawing in less people this year with SC2 even if BW fans don't like it.
I must've missed it somewhere, but what happened with samsung sponser denying all blizzard game?
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
You definitely did not read a substantial part of this thread, and you probably haven't read most of the huuuuuuuge Kespa vs. Blizzard threads either.
Most BroodWar fans actually gave SC2 a try. Why the fuck wouldn't we watch something that we looked forward to? Something that might have succeeded BW, an amazing game that lasted for 10-11 years?
We have a pessimistic view because SC2 is GARBAGE compared to BROODWAR. If you have the same amount of knowledge for both games, you are objective, and you STILL can say that the average quality of a SC2 game > average quality of a BW game, then great. Each to his own.
And yes, this is pretty much why we hate SC2. Aside from Blizzard trying to shove it down Korea's throat and killing off BW, we are deeply, deeply disappointed with the crap Blizzard released as the successor of such a great RTS game.
And don't give me any of that "oh BW had 12 years" shit. If you really think that point wasn't addressed about a billion times, you really haven't been around TL when things were really heated. And this is coming from a guy who joined in 2010.
It can get pretty annoying when people start flaming BW, and it's also disappointing when people who love BW flame SC2. Come on keep your ragefilled opinions to yourselves and actually have a nice discussion instead of all this hate towards each other. I myself actually dislike SC2 a lot and I've actually slipped up here and there but I figure there is no point in getting so angry at something. A lot of the people that I've asked that watch SC2, "Do like BW at all? Did you ever watch the proscene?" They respond with a no and say "Nah BW is too buggy and the graphics are ugly." I can't even begin to understand that... if you like SC2 then you should definitely like BW as well, but people don't try and think that pretty graphics = better gameplay.
On March 09 2011 03:05 hitthat wrote: And LOL at SC2 trolls who are thinking this parody of true leagues, that been WCG since 2007, can kill BW when its finaly removed from the game list. Give me a break, this will not make us watching or playing SC2 as long as we have a TRUE leagues in streams and vods. It will not even damage the BW much. SK=SC, and SK is what you must remove first :D
I enjoy the classic happy face emoticon when replying to 'trolls' as to say, "you guys cant get to me! I typed a colon and a capital D ha ha ha!" (side note it appears trolling is a lost art on TL as anyone voicing an opposing opinion is a troll now? lol?)
Anyways what you say is true. SK = SC. SC = starcraft. Stracraft 2 = starcraft. SC2 = SK/USA/Europe/SEA.
Globalized Baby. It's coming...
edit: League of Legends as a title? LOL. what the fuck is all I have to say about that.
I understand why they removed BW from WCG. It's very sad, it really is. But to add League of Legends to it's roster? Fucking lol is all I have to say about that. Riot is all about making a character every 2 weeks with new skins, also with actually balancing the game at the bottom of its list. Just lol is all that is. Anyway is HoN even in WCG?
On March 09 2011 08:14 Lokian wrote: WCG hosted in South Korea? And no Brood War? This is a big blow to brood war IMO. If it was another country, I would understand, but SK? That's just hard to wrap your brain around honest.
What will the Koreans think? I'm more interested in that since there must be some bad gossip about BW after this is announced. It is no doubt having BW excluded in WCG will decrease BW popularity even in Korea.
And I don't see WCG drawing in less people this year with SC2 even if BW fans don't like it.
I must've missed it somewhere, but what happened with samsung sponser denying all blizzard game?
Samsung isn't sponsoring any more and I doubt it will decrease BW's popularity. Thats like saying playing soccer in the USA decreases football's popularity.
On March 09 2011 08:14 Lokian wrote: What will the Koreans think? I'm more interested in that since there must be some bad gossip about BW after this is announced. It is no doubt having BW excluded in WCG will decrease BW popularity even in Korea.
Koreans are posting by large, similar comments as seen from here:
I swear most of these SC2 newcomers have no idea how big BW is in Korea.
BW doesn't need the rest of the world to flourish. The rest of the world can do whatever it wants (switch to SC2, stick with BW) . . . the BW scene in Korea is STILL many many many times bigger than any esports scene for any game in the entire world (even, it's still many times bigger than SC2).
On March 07 2011 11:53 Release wrote: Watching sc2 is so much less exciting than watching sc1. I can see that they chose sc2 because of the more players, but the spectators will suffer. I was hoping for one more year so Jaedong or Flash would make it to the hall of fame.
Find it to be quite the opposite! SC2 is just so much more fun to observe than sc2, it is to me the greatest spectator game that i've ever seen. Even while taking breaks from sc2 it's just so much fun to follow games, especially with foreigners actually being fairly succesful, but thats off the point.
Doubt they would ever reverse that change, hopefully the sc:bw pro's will move to sc2 instead!
Sephy69 wrote:
I understand why they removed BW from WCG. It's very sad, it really is. But to add League of Legends to it's roster? Fucking lol is all I have to say about that. Riot is all about making a character every 2 weeks with new skins, also with actually balancing the game at the bottom of its list. Just lol is all that is. Anyway is HoN even in WCG?
I agree, would rather see HoN or even Dota than LoL...
On March 09 2011 09:22 chenchen wrote: I swear most of these SC2 newcomers have no idea how big BW is in Korea.
I would say that a lot of the misunderstandings from SC2 players is because of this. I don't think a lot of them understand that BW e-sports in Korea has become a mature industry like any other industry, like carmaking or retail.
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
You definitely did not read a substantial part of this thread, and you probably haven't read most of the huuuuuuuge Kespa vs. Blizzard threads either.
Most BroodWar fans actually gave SC2 a try. Why the fuck wouldn't we watch something that we looked forward to? Something that might have succeeded BW, an amazing game that lasted for 10-11 years?
We have a pessimistic view because SC2 is GARBAGE compared to BROODWAR. If you have the same amount of knowledge for both games, you are objective, and you STILL can say that the average quality of a SC2 game > average quality of a BW game, then great. Each to his own.
And yes, this is pretty much why we hate SC2. Aside from Blizzard trying to shove it down Korea's throat and killing off BW, we are deeply, deeply disappointed with the crap Blizzard released as the successor of such a great RTS game.
And don't give me any of that "oh BW had 12 years" shit. If you really think that point wasn't addressed about a billion times, you really haven't been around TL when things were really heated. And this is coming from a guy who joined in 2010.
Well, first and foremost, I apologize if you're not a fan of the date on which I joined TL. Perhaps, it will make you slightly happier to know that I purchased SC/BW at the age of 11; I am now 21. I grew up wishing I could play like NaDa, BoxeR, savior, July-Zerg, Xellos, Yellow, Nal_rA, Reach and iloveoov (some of the great players that I can remember off the top of my head). But, if we may get back to what we're REALLY talking about. Why are you calling the successor crap? What specifically about the game makes it so horrible to you? I mean some of the major figures we've admired as BW players have moved on. Day9's dailies are now SC2... Artosis has moved on to covering and commentating the SC2 scene... IdrA, who was at the peak of his career in BW before switching to SC2 has also moved onto the succesor game... the TL community has increased as a result of SC2... there is now a Liquipedia 2. If the game was as "crap" as you claim it to be then why would all of these things be happening.
BW was and is an absolutely fantastic game... it would be amazing to see its succesor become even more successful; not just live up to it, but surpass it. Every game that is made should strive to be as successful as BW is. SC2 is on pace to doing that. And we should all be happy about that, especially since in spirit they are the same game... one is a sequel to the former.
Nevertheless, if you truly do think it is a piece of "crap", a view to which you are completely and fully entitled, you should at least explain/justify why you think that rather than just say "SC2 is GARBAGE compared BW". Saying this makes you just as bad as those are trolling this thread with ignorant hate remarks toward BW for no other reason, other than their newfound love for SC2.
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
You definitely did not read a substantial part of this thread, and you probably haven't read most of the huuuuuuuge Kespa vs. Blizzard threads either.
Most BroodWar fans actually gave SC2 a try. Why the fuck wouldn't we watch something that we looked forward to? Something that might have succeeded BW, an amazing game that lasted for 10-11 years?
We have a pessimistic view because SC2 is GARBAGE compared to BROODWAR. If you have the same amount of knowledge for both games, you are objective, and you STILL can say that the average quality of a SC2 game > average quality of a BW game, then great. Each to his own.
And yes, this is pretty much why we hate SC2. Aside from Blizzard trying to shove it down Korea's throat and killing off BW, we are deeply, deeply disappointed with the crap Blizzard released as the successor of such a great RTS game.
And don't give me any of that "oh BW had 12 years" shit. If you really think that point wasn't addressed about a billion times, you really haven't been around TL when things were really heated. And this is coming from a guy who joined in 2010.
Well, first and foremost, I apologize if you're not a fan of the date on which I joined TL. Perhaps, it will make you slightly happier to know that I purchased SC/BW at the age of 11; I am now 21. I grew up wishing I could play like NaDa, BoxeR, savior, July-Zerg, Xellos, Yellow, Nal_rA, Reach and iloveoov (some of the great players that I can remember off the top of my head). But, if we may get back to what we're REALLY talking about. Why are you calling the successor crap? What specifically about the game makes it so horrible to you? I mean some of the major figures we've admired as BW players have moved on. Day9's dailies are now SC2... Artosis has moved on to covering and commentating the SC2 scene... IdrA, who was at the peak of his career in BW before switching to SC2 has also moved onto the succesor game... the TL community has increased as a result of SC2... there is now a Liquipedia 2. If the game was as "crap" as you claim it to be then why would all of these things be happening.
BW was and is an absolutely fantastic game... it would be amazing to see its succesor become even more successful; not just live up to it, but surpass it. Every game that is made should strive to be as successful as BW is. SC2 is on pace to doing that. And we should all be happy about that, especially since in spirit they are the same game... one is a sequel to the former.
Nevertheless, if you truly do think it is a piece of "crap", a view to which you are completely and fully entitled, you should at least explain/justify why you think that rather than just say "SC2 is GARBAGE compared BW". Saying this makes you just as bad as those are trolling this thread with ignorant hate remarks toward BW for no other reason, other than their newfound love for SC2.
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor. BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor. And it will also, like its predecessor, eventually die. No need to be pessimistic towards it though. Try and lose yourself in the excitement of SC2 now that it's out and stop hating on it so much...
You definitely did not read a substantial part of this thread, and you probably haven't read most of the huuuuuuuge Kespa vs. Blizzard threads either.
Most BroodWar fans actually gave SC2 a try. Why the fuck wouldn't we watch something that we looked forward to? Something that might have succeeded BW, an amazing game that lasted for 10-11 years?
We have a pessimistic view because SC2 is GARBAGE compared to BROODWAR. If you have the same amount of knowledge for both games, you are objective, and you STILL can say that the average quality of a SC2 game > average quality of a BW game, then great. Each to his own.
And yes, this is pretty much why we hate SC2. Aside from Blizzard trying to shove it down Korea's throat and killing off BW, we are deeply, deeply disappointed with the crap Blizzard released as the successor of such a great RTS game.
And don't give me any of that "oh BW had 12 years" shit. If you really think that point wasn't addressed about a billion times, you really haven't been around TL when things were really heated. And this is coming from a guy who joined in 2010.
Well, first and foremost, I apologize if you're not a fan of the date on which I joined TL. Perhaps, it will make you slightly happier to know that I purchased SC/BW at the age of 11; I am now 21. I grew up wishing I could play like NaDa, BoxeR, savior, July-Zerg, Xellos, Yellow, Nal_rA, Reach and iloveoov (some of the great players that I can remember off the top of my head). But, if we may get back to what we're REALLY talking about. Why are you calling the successor crap? What specifically about the game makes it so horrible to you? I mean some of the major figures we've admired as BW players have moved on. Day9's dailies are now SC2... Artosis has moved on to covering and commentating the SC2 scene... IdrA, who was at the peak of his career in BW before switching to SC2 has also moved onto the succesor game... the TL community has increased as a result of SC2... there is now a Liquipedia 2. If the game was as "crap" as you claim it to be then why would all of these things be happening.
BW was and is an absolutely fantastic game... it would be amazing to see its succesor become even more successful; not just live up to it, but surpass it. Every game that is made should strive to be as successful as BW is. SC2 is on pace to doing that. And we should all be happy about that, especially since in spirit they are the same game... one is a sequel to the former.
Nevertheless, if you truly do think it is a piece of "crap", a view to which you are completely and fully entitled, you should at least explain/justify why you think that rather than just say "SC2 is GARBAGE compared BW". Saying this makes you just as bad as those are trolling this thread with ignorant hate remarks toward BW for no other reason, other than their newfound love for SC2.
I came off here as an enraged, senseless poster. I apologize for that.
My hate for SC2, though not completely similar, compares to my hate for Bisu in a stange way. I somewhr dislike SC2 because of its fans; I somewhat dislike Bisu because of his fans.
However, if you really want me to regurgitate what every BW fan has expressed, I really cannot. I'll just come off as an inflammatory, idiotic troll.
And success does not constitute a good game. SC2 has problems, face it. The hard counter mechanism sucks. Ball vs ball, one battle wins aren't exciting. You occasionally get the top notch game that's super aggressive or very multitask heavy, but those are rare gems.
Yes, Idra, day[9], artosis, teamliquid, and many other foreigner sites moved to SC2. They did not do this because it was going to be a "good" game. They (Idra, Ret, Day[9], etc.) move because that's where the money was going in the foreigener scene. Teamliquid moved to cover SC2 so it could quickly grasp the new market as the leading Starcraft II news/community site. I remember, though vaguely, when an admin said it would have been stupid to NOT move teamliquid towarss SC2.
While I would like to believe that SC2 succeede broodwar, it simply has not lived up to how hyped up it was. Granted, that's either our fault or Blizzard's fault (shitty maps an patching ftw?), but it still isn't up there.
I'm going to stop before I sound like even more of an idiot, but that's just my general opinion.
On March 08 2011 16:05 KevinIX wrote: You can't say SC2 is killing BW. SC2 is simply the next phase of Starcraft. Just like BW replaced SC1. It's all the same game in spirit. The same community, the same playstyle. I think there is quite a lot of bias by BW fans, and that is why they don't like watching SC2. They've had such a long history with BW. That's understandable, and when SC3 comes out, I'll feel the same way about losing SC2. But SC2 is not a bad game at all, right now. Some of you say that it's boring compared to BW, but it's clear from the numbers that many people enjoy watching SC2, perhaps more people than those who enjoyed BW.
The transition from the original version of starcraft to BW is not even close to the same as the differences between BW and SC2.
Also, if we don't agree with your tastes we're therefore biased? I understand that some people prefer playing SC2 so why is it so hard for you to accept that some people just like playing and watching BW over SC2. Geesh.
BW doesn't make any sense in the WCG anymore. Koreans have been long dominating and now that there is NO top Foreigners who continue to play bw.... it doesn't really fit the scene at all. You really want to see koreans stomp computers? whats the point
Do you see "WCG" mentioned in my post or in the post I was replying to? So don't put words in my mouth. I was replying to the statements by KevinIX in which he argued that BW fans don't like watching SC2 because they are biased.
Next time read a post carefully before you jump in to criticize.
Why cricket is better than baseball? they wear gloves in baseball while they don't in cricket.. ( cricket ball is much harder )
cricket can be played anywhere ( even in a corridor of a building ) while baseball needs big grounds etc
the ball bounces b4 reaching the batsman while it doesn't in baseball..
u can bowl anywhere in cricket..while in baseball u cant bowl on the batsman's body. which sux
bowling is harder than pitching..cuz in bowling u cannot bend your arm while u can in baseball
cricketers are much more athletic...baseball players are just a bunch of fat ppl.. cricket is popular almost everywhere except the states.where baseball is popular only in the states..
the batsman in cricket have to place the ball b/w the fielders, play according to the situation etc. while in baseball u just have to swing your bat like a retard..
the funniest part is, Adam Gilchrist, a former cricket batsman was He was approached in early 2005 by the US baseball franchise, the Boston Red Sox WHICH HE REJECTED!!! this clearly shows that cricketers can play baseball but baseball players cant play cricket..
only reason why u guys say that cricket is harder than baseball is that the bat is round, making it difficult to hit the ball..buts that's also crap...
watching a game of T20 cricket is definitely better than a Yankees vs red sox.. or Wat Eva.. cuz there's more excitement in it..also it gets over in less than 3 hrs you can mention some stuff why baseball mite be better than cricket,, lets see who wins
(That was the posters question which was followed by answers in the form of flames and constructive feedback.)
Either way, I believe it was too early to pull the plug on BW. I, a SC2 player, still do appreciate BW as an entertaining game to watch. Both games should be able to co-exist.
On March 09 2011 06:12 Kahuna. wrote: Reading a lot of these comments, I get the feeling that a lot of players who are still in love with BW are in denial that SC2 is capable of reaching the level of BW. All I see is pessimistic remarks about the new game due to a permanent love for its predecessor.
I don't know how others feel, but my pessimism towards SC2 stems from the fact that SC1 is the only game to have broken the social stigma of playing games professionally and become a household name, all without a hype machine; this is quite a monumental achievement, and indeed it took a good deal of luck. In contrast, people are hyping SC2 and pumping money into it like no tomorrow, but it's not even close to being a household name. Only the most dedicated of nerds/geeks/gamers are even aware of it at a professional level. Just for a simple anecdote, my friend's ex-girlfriend just laughed when we brought up video games as a 'sport.' Compare that to Bisu's screaming fan girls. I'll withhold judgment until HotS is released (the time between SC1's release and the first OSL should be about the time span between SC2:WoL's release and the release of SC2:HotS). When all 3 of the expansions are released, if SC2 is a game known by your mom, your sister, your uncle, your dad, and your girlfriend, then I will give it the acknowledgment it deserves. Until then, I expect nothing.
BW was a great game... it always will be... that doesn't mean that we have to hate SC2. SC2 is just as exciting to watch... and at its current rate it will surpass its predecessor.
Playing SC2 is pretty fun. Watching it, not so much. As a spectator sport, I don't find SC2 great due to: A) Balls. The best example IMO is watching zealots ball up in SC2; it isn't as cool as watching a dozen SC1 zealots charge out of gateways in a menacing line, something about their stride in SC1 is so much more intimidating. B) Dull audio - listen to zerglings dying in SC1 (also take note of the bloody mess they make!) and compare it to how they die in SC2, or listen to the sound of a zealot's attack in SC1 and compare to their attack sound in SC2, the list goes on and on - in short, the sounds of battle in SC1 are loud and hectic, thus making it more intense and fun to watch. C) The level of mechanics needed to perform in SC2 don't make me drop my jaw. The insanity of macro is greatly decreased by MBS, blah blah blah, this point has been beaten to death, no need to extrapolate it here. D) The commentators aren't fantastic. No offense to Tastosis, they're solid announcers, but I'd rather listen to shouts of CHOGULING, STORRRMMuuuuu, MINE DAEBAK, etc...it's much more dramatic. For some reason, I don't see any western announcers getting that crazy on television, just watch ESPN or game show hosts on the major television networks if you're not sure where I'm coming from. Dramatic announcers seem to be in the realm of Asian television.
On March 09 2011 08:14 Lokian wrote: WCG hosted in South Korea? And no Brood War? This is a big blow to brood war IMO. If it was another country, I would understand, but SK? That's just hard to wrap your brain around honest.
What will the Koreans think? I'm more interested in that since there must be some bad gossip about BW after this is announced. It is no doubt having BW excluded in WCG will decrease BW popularity even in Korea.
And I don't see WCG drawing in less people this year with SC2 even if BW fans don't like it.
I must've missed it somewhere, but what happened with samsung sponser denying all blizzard game?
WCG isn't even that (whats the word for it?) Prestigious[?] in Korea.. Its not that big of a blow if you think about it. OSL/MSL/Proleague is where BW really is.. If those 3 stop then thats a big blow.
Edit: I barely watched any games in WCG except the Korean qualifiers..... The rest are Foreigners getting roflstumpled by Koreans... Hell if my country joins WCG a simple D+ might qualify on WCG xD
I guess a lot of this stuff clearly comes down to personal preference. I mean like you've said... what's exciting can depend on the audio of the sounds in the game, whether your commentator is screaming in a language you don't understand at the speed of a SC/BW vulture, etc. Nevertheless, I hope SC2 is just as, if not more successful than BW. BW is a fantastic game that I enjoyed playing and watching; I think SC2, with time can become that. C'mon guys, it's been out for a year and I know some of you detest many aspects of the game... but it is only a matter of time before some of the players in those training houses in Korea shock us with things we've never seen before. God knows how long it took for the first jaw-dropping moment in SC/BW to take place. There is still balancing to be done, new units to be introduced, new spells, new maps to arrive... I think it's best to approach this in a "let's wait and see what SC2 has in store for us" kinda way... rather than a "SC2 sucks! Long live BW!" sort of way. But, whether you choose to play BW or SC2, and whether you tune in to WCG anymore or not, happy gaming and happy spectating nonetheless!
On March 09 2011 12:27 Kahuna. wrote: I guess a lot of this stuff clearly comes down to personal preference. I mean like you've said... what's exciting can depend on the audio of the sounds in the game, whether you commentator is screaming a language you don't understand at the speed of a SC/BW vulture, etc. Nevertheless, I hope SC2 is just as, if not more successful than BW. BW is a fantastic game that I enjoyed playing and watching; I think SC2, with time can become that. C'mon guys, it's been out for a year and I know some of you detest many aspects of the game... but it is only a matter of time before some of the players in those training houses in Korea shock us with things we've never seen before. God knows how long it took for the first jaw-dropping moment in SC/BW to take place. There is still balancing to be done, new units to be introduced, new spells, new maps to arrive... I think it's best to approach this in a "let's wait and see what SC2 has in store for us" kinda way... rather than a "SC2 sucks! Long live BW!" sort of way. But, whether you choose to play BW or SC2, and whether you tune in to WCG anymore or not, happy gaming and happy spectating nonetheless!
I agree with this.. we should say SC2 prosper!! and LONG LIVE BW.
Oh ya when BW was released everyone still doesn't have that much of an RTS knowledge we'll still learning on the other hand when SC2 was released we already have tons of RTS knowledge. So I bet after a year(or two or more) SC2 will be mapped out[?] what took broodwar 10 years.. and mechanics will be more important than thinking of new strategy then we'll have players like Flash,Jaedong,Bisu and Stork on SC2.
On March 09 2011 12:34 By.Fantasy wrote: [?] - I don't know what the right word is.
I think the word you were looking for is "solved". And yeh, I also think SC2 will be solved faster than BW, but also remember that the two expansions that have yet to be released will slow that solving process... Perhaps WoL will be solved but then we'll enter the phase of solving HotS... Which will be followed by the phase of solving the LotV. So the time should be substantial before the final game reaches a stage of powerhouses like Flash an Jaedong, probably not as long 10 years though. But again, we'll have to see how it all plays out.
Find it to be quite the opposite! SC2 is just so much more fun to observe than sc2, it is to me the greatest spectator game that i've ever seen.
Graphics-wise it's more interesting to to watch, but I feel that Starcraft II seems to be designed to appeal to the "mainstream" audience, the mood of the game is much more kid-friendly than Brood War.
As such I think it will turn out like CS 1.6 vs CS:S, there will still be tons of BW players but all the coverage will be on SC2.
No real surprise for me. Why have a worldwide tournament if only Koreans play it seriously? It been a blast all those years. I enjoyed BW realy much. But time is gone now. SC2 is here, and its great game, both to play and spectate. I dont have any problems with WCG decision, i think it will work out great for them.
So many good memories connected to WCG, but thats all they are now, memories. Dont disturbed this trying to ressurect something which is past its prime.At least its how i feel.
Find it to be quite the opposite! SC2 is just so much more fun to observe than sc2, it is to me the greatest spectator game that i've ever seen.
Graphics-wise it's more interesting to to watch, but I feel that Starcraft II seems to be designed to appeal to the "mainstream" audience, the mood of the game is much more kid-friendly than Brood War.
As such I think it will turn out like CS 1.6 vs CS:S, there will still be tons of BW players but all the coverage will be on SC2.
Not really. Sure there are tons of Koreans....but the amount of foreign BW players has just dropped significantly.
On March 09 2011 12:34 By.Fantasy wrote: [?] - I don't know what the right word is.
I think the word you were looking for is "solved". And yeh, I also think SC2 will be solved faster than BW, but also remember that the two expansions that have yet to be released will slow that solving process... Perhaps WoL will be solved but then we'll enter the phase of solving HotS... Which will be followed by the phase of solving the LotV. So the time should be substantial before the final game reaches a stage of powerhouses like Flash an Jaedong, probably not as long 10 years though. But again, we'll have to see how it all plays out.
So true!.. still SC2 is not that fun to watch, guess we'll have to wait and see if it becomes more interesting... but my guess is that korean people will dominate SC2 so fast that is going to be just like BW is today... Long Life BW (blizzar should do a remake of brood war, the same game but with new sprites? it would be better than SC2, anyone?)
Well I'm not going to read 34 pages of arguments xD I like both games and I'm sad BW got out of WCG but was something to be expected after SC2 release. When I got BW, I played for 8 years straight from ladder to fast$$$, I just leave SC2 after 3 months and I hope it gets better with the expansions, SC2 just didn't give me the same satisfaction but to each its own.
This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever seriously played SCBW or watched it seriously? If not, feel free to PM and play a couple games on ICCUP.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
I think SC2 is more like: THAT GUY COUNTERED THE OTHER GUY SHIT THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE HELL YEAH I LOVE WATCHING STARCRAFT 2 SO INTENSE MAN.
SCBW: Oh darn this timing window is really good, oh darn a bunch of probes died, k gg.
So condensed: sc2 is more fun to watch for people who have no clue what RTS is.
Damn.. SCBW.. gone.. :/ Well, at least Boxer's record of having two world championships is protected forever. And of course there's a SCBW vs SC2 argument.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
I think SC2 is more like: THAT GUY COUNTERED THE OTHER GUY SHIT THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE HELL YEAH I LOVE WATCHING STARCRAFT 2 SO INTENSE MAN.
SCBW: Oh darn this timing window is really good, oh darn a bunch of probes died, k gg.
So condensed: sc2 is more fun to watch for people who have no clue what RTS is.
I think you have no clue about SC2, so much hate inside you jebus.
OnTopic though I think it's sad that BW gets retired from WCG but it is at the same time kind of understandable since the scene is pretty much dead outside Korea and they had several other blizzard titles that are still played world-wide.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
I think SC2 is more like: THAT GUY COUNTERED THE OTHER GUY SHIT THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE HELL YEAH I LOVE WATCHING STARCRAFT 2 SO INTENSE MAN.
SCBW: Oh darn this timing window is really good, oh darn a bunch of probes died, k gg.
So condensed: sc2 is more fun to watch for people who have no clue what RTS is.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
I think SC2 is more like: THAT GUY COUNTERED THE OTHER GUY SHIT THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE HELL YEAH I LOVE WATCHING STARCRAFT 2 SO INTENSE MAN.
SCBW: Oh darn this timing window is really good, oh darn a bunch of probes died, k gg.
So condensed: sc2 is more fun to watch for people who have no clue what RTS is.
-_- let's not be dumb here, this is the kind of idiocy that creates tension between both parts of the community. Conversely, BW could be more fun to watch for the casual since there's usually more action going on in the map. Both descriptions of both games could apply to both. General consensus is that BW is a more fun game to watch, either due to the unit dynamics or how well developed the metagame is compared to SC2..
I'm still awaiting for FlamingTurd's elaboration on his reasoning why SC2 is more fun to watch.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
I think SC2 is more like: THAT GUY COUNTERED THE OTHER GUY SHIT THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE HELL YEAH I LOVE WATCHING STARCRAFT 2 SO INTENSE MAN.
SCBW: Oh darn this timing window is really good, oh darn a bunch of probes died, k gg.
So condensed: sc2 is more fun to watch for people who have no clue what RTS is.
-_- let's not be dumb here, this is the kind of idiocy that creates tension between both parts of the community. Conversely, BW could be more fun to watch for the casual since there's usually more action going on in the map. Both descriptions of both games could apply to both. General consensus is that BW is a more fun game to watch, either due to the unit dynamics or how well developed the metagame is compared to SC2..
I'm still awaiting for FlamingTurd's elaboration on his reasoning why SC2 is more fun to watch.
On March 11 2011 09:17 FlamingTurd wrote: This has been a long time coming. Honestly I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out. SC2 is just so much more exciting than SC1. There is just so much more differentiation and less repetitiveness in SC2 which make sit a much better spectator sport overall.
elaboration please, I'm 99% sure you're talking out of your ass here
I think SC2 is more like: THAT GUY COUNTERED THE OTHER GUY SHIT THERE IS BLOOD EVERYWHERE HELL YEAH I LOVE WATCHING STARCRAFT 2 SO INTENSE MAN.
SCBW: Oh darn this timing window is really good, oh darn a bunch of probes died, k gg.
So condensed: sc2 is more fun to watch for people who have no clue what RTS is.
This is not true I've seen progamers come back after a bunch of probes die... Unless your really bad your probes got wiped out which n00bs usually rage about.
On WCG's web site, 4 of their 5 "must watch games/videos" are of BW matches. I'm sure a game that's not even balanced is better to watch. If grubby and moon are playing SC 2 now, how big is the Warcraft scene? If WCG had SC, the scene def wouldn't be dead. If there is a lawsuit that says, "you can't host so and so game," it kinda makes discussions that don't pertain to that moot.
SC2 is a far faster paced and entertaining game in my opinion, partially for the fact that after so much BW there really remains little to be revealed, even at the top level. I wouldn't be surprised if BW continues in Korea for a long time, but overall, for global e-sports SC2 is the best thing. Its quite simple really, in BW the Koreans had anywhere from a 3 to 6 year head start to practice - full time - all the foreign players did not. SC2 everyone started fresh, and the non-Korean pro scenes started up during Beta and are still going strong. I can understand wanting BW to remain because of nostalgia but for anyone that truly likes e-sports they have to accept that SC2 is the future.
This is going to be a huge blow for the starcraft community in that BW will be discontinued, but I think it's good that they're stepping up and taking in Sc2 as the official permanent replacement.
On March 14 2011 07:01 SichuanPanda wrote: SC2 is a far faster paced and entertaining game in my opinion, partially for the fact that after so much BW there really remains little to be revealed, even at the top level. I wouldn't be surprised if BW continues in Korea for a long time, but overall, for global e-sports SC2 is the best thing. Its quite simple really, in BW the Koreans had anywhere from a 3 to 6 year head start to practice - full time - all the foreign players did not. SC2 everyone started fresh, and the non-Korean pro scenes started up during Beta and are still going strong. I can understand wanting BW to remain because of nostalgia but for anyone that truly likes e-sports they have to accept that SC2 is the future.
Sc2 seems far slow and less entertaining. At WCG, the majority is watching, and watching the same thing over and over isn't really exciting. In BW, there are still things like moving zerglings up ramps, controlling hundreds of lings (like zero), large scale macro, babysitting. This is what makes it so exciting because it's easy to see the difference of someone who plays on mechanics, and someone who plays on practice.
On March 14 2011 07:01 SichuanPanda wrote: SC2 is a far faster paced and entertaining game in my opinion, partially for the fact that after so much BW there really remains little to be revealed, even at the top level. I wouldn't be surprised if BW continues in Korea for a long time, but overall, for global e-sports SC2 is the best thing. Its quite simple really, in BW the Koreans had anywhere from a 3 to 6 year head start to practice - full time - all the foreign players did not. SC2 everyone started fresh, and the non-Korean pro scenes started up during Beta and are still going strong. I can understand wanting BW to remain because of nostalgia but for anyone that truly likes e-sports they have to accept that SC2 is the future.
Only agree with u about Korean so far ahead of foreign make the competition WCG less interesting as most of the group games were not worth watching. However, in players' view, BW should be much a faster paced than SC2 as so many more tasks must be done at the same time. For ppl who do not understand the game, SC2 may seem more entertaining but for ppl who do, BW is much more exciting as you know how hard it is to be able to control and manage what you see on the screen. For me, tis news is very disappointing as I still think SC2 is not developed enough to be able to replace BW.
This was bound to happen...No surprise here. I'm glad that sc2 is in though, maybe we'll see some new faces and diverse games from now on, bc i'm tired of korean finals.
On March 14 2011 07:01 SichuanPanda wrote: SC2 is a far faster paced and entertaining game in my opinion, partially for the fact that after so much BW there really remains little to be revealed, even at the top level. I wouldn't be surprised if BW continues in Korea for a long time, but overall, for global e-sports SC2 is the best thing. Its quite simple really, in BW the Koreans had anywhere from a 3 to 6 year head start to practice - full time - all the foreign players did not. SC2 everyone started fresh, and the non-Korean pro scenes started up during Beta and are still going strong. I can understand wanting BW to remain because of nostalgia but for anyone that truly likes e-sports they have to accept that SC2 is the future.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I really don't know why this myth gets perpetrated. BW is evolving and changing now perhaps more than any time before (except for the obviously dynamic first couple years). The number of changes and evolutions in 2010 is quite long. Ver made a post that listed probably 10 or 15 changes in TvZ alone, many of them very large scale changes and not mear build order tweaks. PvZ style has changes significantly in the recent months, and ZvZ is one the cusp of a hive tech revolution.
I agree with some of what you say, but the idea that BW is stale or figured out is blatantly, completely wrong.
On March 14 2011 16:19 Faraday wrote: This was bound to happen...No surprise here. I'm glad that sc2 is in though, maybe we'll see some new faces and diverse games from now on, bc i'm tired of korean finals.
I hope you do realise that korean finals are still veeeery likely.
On March 15 2011 12:33 PSIDefenseUp wrote: It's great to see that a game I didn't really care for is being dropped in favor of one of my favorite games.
I'm okay with this.
User was warned for this post
How does one lurk for two months, then post this.
But on topic, I will severely miss seeing Jaedong/Flash going to every WCG Grand Final.
On March 15 2011 12:33 PSIDefenseUp wrote: It's great to see that a game I didn't really care for is being dropped in favor of one of my favorite games.
I'm okay with this.
User was warned for this post
Post like this just show how mature the people on the other side who plays same game called starcraft really i applaud this kind of trolls you guys just love to stir up something in the mix and caused hatred for people who still loves bw .Keep trolling ..
So sad. I dont understand broodwar is a better game you can even see how players complain about SC2 for been unbalance. I hope the remake that sc2 game because is nothing like sc is horrible
Wow....well i dont think that is an incredibly good decision because of the amount of people that still play brood war, but i guess there will always be some iCCup tournament right?
On March 07 2011 11:56 Antoine wrote: On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
Counter Strike 1.6->CS:S->CS 1.6.
It can happen if SC2 dies out.
CS:S did not have an ever growing community and tournaments nor the spectator appeal. It's comparable but not at the same time.
On March 07 2011 11:56 Antoine wrote: On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
Counter Strike 1.6->CS:S->CS 1.6.
It can happen if SC2 dies out.
CS:S did not have an ever growing community and tournaments nor the spectator appeal. It's comparable but not at the same time.
I dont think spectator appeal has much of anything to do with the success of an esport(lets be honest here, 5 guys camping for a couple of minutes and 5 seconds of culminating firefight with 0 movement is not particularly appealing, and that is what cs has been all about since the removal of bunny hopping and accuracy during movement). It all seems to be about enjoyment of play, hence the easier to play&low learning curve shooters being so successful at it, with all the swaths of "tactical" shooter games being on of tourneys
On March 31 2011 07:00 Lard wrote: WCG can use SC2 and everyone play on the BW mod ftw.
That wouldn't, unfortunately, make it BW. One of the things about BW is its engine, and various tricks and micro techniques it results in.
As far as I know the BW mod simulates the behaviour of the engine though, including even the awesome dragoon ai and muta stacking.
That said, this seems like a logical choice for them. They will be very hard pressed to find any foreigners that can compete with the Korean pros at this point.
On March 07 2011 11:56 Antoine wrote: On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
Counter Strike 1.6->CS:S->CS 1.6.
It can happen if SC2 dies out.
CS:S did not have an ever growing community and tournaments nor the spectator appeal. It's comparable but not at the same time.
I dont think spectator appeal has much of anything to do with the success of an esport(lets be honest here, 5 guys camping for a couple of minutes and 5 seconds of culminating firefight with 0 movement is not particularly appealing, and that is what cs has been all about since the removal of bunny hopping and accuracy during movement). It all seems to be about enjoyment of play, hence the easier to play&low learning curve shooters being so successful at it, with all the swaths of "tactical" shooter games being on of tourneys
Late response, but you know nothing of counter strike lol. Why would people sponsor tournaments if people will not watch/attend, a game with no spectators will never be apart of esports.
On March 07 2011 11:56 Antoine wrote: On one hand, WCG is going to be a huge loss - it delivered awesome games every year, just last year looking at FvJ on Grand Line and Tau Cross those were 2 of the best games in all of 2010. On the other hand, the foreign scene is getting pretty weak. I'm also interested about a possible future return if bw rebounds abroad, is there any precedent in wcg for a game going away but coming back later?
Counter Strike 1.6->CS:S->CS 1.6.
It can happen if SC2 dies out.
CS:S did not have an ever growing community and tournaments nor the spectator appeal. It's comparable but not at the same time.
I dont think spectator appeal has much of anything to do with the success of an esport(lets be honest here, 5 guys camping for a couple of minutes and 5 seconds of culminating firefight with 0 movement is not particularly appealing, and that is what cs has been all about since the removal of bunny hopping and accuracy during movement). It all seems to be about enjoyment of play, hence the easier to play&low learning curve shooters being so successful at it, with all the swaths of "tactical" shooter games being on of tourneys
Late response, but you know nothing of counter strike lol. Why would people sponsor tournaments if people will not watch/attend, a game with no spectators will never be apart of esports.
The spectator value in that context is reflection of the game in the context of the time the spectators themselves have spent playing it. That is, the spectator value is directed toward gamers themselves. Being appealing to those outside the games circle is something i think only brood war has achieved (in korea) if even that.
EPT
