And I will help you understand me and some of the BW ''fanboys''.
I write this because of the recent post that Blind-RawR made.(check it out here if you want http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=199225) This is going to be a huge wall of text and I am going to put all my ranting in it and some hopefully helpfull knowledge to SC2 fans aswell. Everyday I browse TL, and everyday I see the same thing, I will quote myself from the aforementioned blog.
On March 09 2011 01:38 Kipsate wrote: These days their are so many uninformed posts from both sides. Because seriously, it is getting so annoying to see alot of threads end up like this. 1. random topic 2. Someone brings in a comparison of BW to SC2 3. SC2 people rant 4. BW people rant back 5. no discussion at all,just meaningless namecalling,baseless arguments and flaming 6. Topic derailed
Either that or
1. SCbw to be dropped, from whatever competition, or not included 2. SC2 guys:Bw is dead 3. SCBW guys: Bw never dies, it is so much better then sc2 4. Thread derailed, flaming ensues.
Now to you SC2 fans I will explain why I(I do not wish to represent others in any way, however I do know that some people find themselves with similiair opinions) why I get so defensive about Brood War, why I like it so much. And why in my opinion SC2 lacks in certain departments
IMPORTANT NOTE: This wall of text is obviously going to be biased, I like BW over SC2 Do NOT come here if you wish to say BW is dead or BW never dies or either rules.
My goal is to make you understand why I think BW is better in certain departments and to ask your on input why do you like Sc2. This will be written in more of a summary format as I have no energy nor time to write a multiple page essay about this.
History and player fanbase.
For the purpose of readability I will keep this short. However you need to know that the E-sport scene virtually did not exist till a small amount of time ago. The reason that Starcraft BW is so amazing for us includes the facts that it was one of the first games to truly introduce leagues, paid salaries, televised games and such. I have an emotional attachment to Starcraft BW because of this, reading articles like BW is dead is annoying because it was 1 of the first games to actually come on a grand scale with E-sports.
The years of Brood War also means that fanbases have devolped over the years, while SC2 competition is still young. The SCBW has more then a decade of history, I feel an attachment to each of the players from the teams. Incredible players such as Jaedong, Bisu(why yes he is pretty aswell), Stork, Flash and the likes of the old, Kingdom, Boxer, Oov, Nada, etc. These names save from Boxer, Nada and those who have transferred to SC2 may not be known that much. But they are known to me. Everytime you mention that BW is dieing, you mention that our favorite players, who I have grown to be a faithfull fan of too is fading away.
Note that the above mentioned have nothing to do with the actual gameplay, and this is not to reflect if anything is superior to another but it has to do with the defensive position that I and some Brood war fans take instantly whenever a mention of BW is dead comes to mind.
Macro mechanics:
People say that MBS and 12unit control groups should not matter when it comes to spectatorship, however it does. Why do you ask?Because managing 5 bases is incredibly hard, imagine having to make probes out of ~3 nexusses at the same time(with 1 click each). Then when they spawn you have to click each probe and tell them to start mining. Do we see it?No, however we do know that is being done. Losses can be attributed to fail macro and it differs the mediocre from the top players.
In Starcraft 2, Macroing is much easier, you have MBS ,automining and stuff. This makes the skill difference between mediocre players and good players much smaller. I am currently in Diamond league in SC2, and let me tell you I suck at the game. However it is so easy that anyone can do it, the easiest division on ICCup BW, the D is harder then anything I have ever played against in Starcraft 2. I got absolutely demolished by any competent player SOLELY on his mechanics when it comes to macro.
In short, the terrible UI of BroodWar in it days actually attributes to the skill gap difference between mediocre and good players in Brood war. There is no such thing in Starcraft 2, as with warpgate tech, MBS, etc it is much easier for anyone. Therefore the skill gap is much smaller.
Is this a good thing?This is open to interpretation, I will admit that I personally find SCBW mechanically too taxing alone , I can not play it at on a high level(I get crushed whenever I attempt ICCup. Bonwja's as we know it exist partially because of this. Oov was famed for his incredible Terran macro, he was known to totally change the game solely based upon his incredible impressive macro mechanics. These days in Starcraft 2 everyone is on that level. Therefore the chance of a SC2 Bonwja is reduced, is it good?maybe, personally I like Bonwja's. People that are untouchable, and when beaten by a player considered inferior it adds to the suspense, the amazingness. SC2 is still young, and therefore there won't be a incredible Bonwja for years, however with reasons stated above one can not rely on superior macro mechanic skill to do so.
Smartcasting
In SC2 we know that you have smartcasting, If you do not know what this includes. Basically if you have a group of 7 templars and click T(for storm) and storm somewhere only 1 templar will storm. In Brood war this is a different story, 7 templars and you press T on a location?7 storms will occur on that area. This is the reason why we are amazed EACH time if a Protoss storms brilliantly like Jangbi,(famed to destroy Nada's complete tankline with the use of a couple templars) Or when a person totally fails with a storm. Storms change battles, they change the tide, and they were not the only spells, Dark swarm, emp stasis. The BW flawed IU actually made it impressive for us as spectators to see something which we knew we could NEVER achieve.
It basically reflects what I think aswell. Everything was so overpowerd in Brood war, storms do a whopping 112 damage. This while Storm in Starcraft 2 does only 80 damage. With the added use of smartcasting, 112 damage storms in SC2 would Break the game so hard and I will explain why. The dreaded Ball effect You can´t tell, but those Roaches are actually screaming ´We are so screwed´´
How many times have you heard it? Balls make SC2 unfun to watch etc.
However to understand why you need to understand how the ball actually does this rather then be screamed at by BW fan people.
Simply put, balls mean clumping, clumping means reduced surface area. This affects melee units especially, zerglings have hard time engaging even a ball of stalkers in a good amount. Even if you surround say 12 stalkers with 50 zerglings, not all 50 zerglings can even attack, most of them will run around like idiots tryinig to find a hole to fit in to attack. Sure the zerglings will come out on top, however as you see melee units are much weaker in that aspect compared to Brood War. Because there was no clumping there(save from air clumping like muta's sairs etc) this made zerglings effective and neglected the massive advantage that range gain over melee partially.
Not only Zerglings suffer from this, ranged units actually do too. Units with superior range, such as the Collosus have a easy time shooting with their 9 range from the safety of their ball. However units such as the hydralisks or the roach can hardly reach the collosi, why?Because it is in a ball and is effectivly BLOCKED by stalkers, forcefields(more on this later) and units due to clumping.
This also means splash is that much more powerfull, and things such as Psi storm can not possible have 112 damage, they would not only change the tide of a battle but destroy the very fun of the game. It would be horridly overpowerd.
Now I will move on to the visuals of the ball. People always say SC2 has superior graphics, I am not 1 to deny this(hell noone sane can) but there is something different about a ball as opposed to ''loose units''. Seeing ~30-40 units shoved in a surface area so small that they only contain such a small amount of the battlefield is for me personally offputting. Why?Because seeing streams of units come from different angles is so much more exciting. Hell it does not have to be a angle for me, if they run alongside each other it is so much more fun to watch for me. If you have never watched a Protoss break a siege tank line in BW then you should. It is hordes of zealots/dragoons coming in from a WIDE SPACE, how does it work in SC2?They come in a ball.
Micro
Ah micro, the sweetest of the Starcraft gameplay, where a unit in the hands of a good player is that much more potent then in the hands of a average player. It is this more then anything which visually directly affects the spectatorship of both games. Remember when people were amazed at MarineKingPrime when he microed his marines around banelings?I too was excited, it was perhaps the first step in true SC micro as we BW fans know it. However after that I have watched countless games of SC2 and.....nothing else happens.
This outlines what I am missing in SC2 at this moment. I will tell you about the most basic and some of the most micro intensive units in SCBW
The excitement that Brood war brings has alot to do with flawed AI and I will tell you why. I will tell you about the interesting units that Brood war has opposed to Starcraft 2.
The Reaver, Vulture and Scourge.
Reavers are very interesting units this, has to do with the fact that the scarab that it shoots is retarded. If you have ever watched BW you know that a scarab can dud alot of the times, however It can also cause HUGE damage to the opponent(read, ~8 workers dead in 1 shot). This adds to alot of suspense, will the Reaver kill or not?
Now we come to the Reaver equivalent that Protoss has gained, the Collosi
The Collosi is are impressive units to see (bzzzzzzzzzt), it is visually impressive but it is practically a boring unit, it attacks and that is about it. You can not micro anything with it.
Another unit which brings interest to the game is the Vulture, as you might know a vulture has spider mines. These bad boys are horridly overpowerd when used correctly, as the have a incredibly high splash damage and vultures come with them when upgraded, 3 of them to be exact. But they can turn the tide of a game incredibly fast, Normally vultures can not destroy dragoons at all. They do 25% damage against dragoons, a pitifull amount. However with proper micro and mine placement, a group of vultures can take out the unit it supposedly is countered by. And to counter that, a group of well controlled dragoons can take out each of the dangerous mines placed around them.
This clip says it all, it is micro from both sides and the one who does it best comes out on top, it is how it should be. The better player should win based upon his unit control, not his unit control alone though but amazing things can happen with vultures and alot of different units in the hands of good players.
Another example is the unit we know as the Scourge, these bastards are flying suicide units, like Banelings. And they could be avoided with micro or do tremendous damage with proper micro. I have said before that MKP splitting was something which resembled Brood war, now check the clip below
This was amazing to see, this shuttle juke. What made it more amazing is what he saved, he saved a shuttle with 2 high templars, some of the most costly units in the Protoss arsenal, Because it is so hard to macro in Starcraft 1, the units are much less likely to be replaced and need to be saved at all costs. The zerg their scourges are the buggers which are amazing to watch for both fails and success.
Supernovamaniac has elaborated a bit more about how amazing this and I will put his quote here if you want to read up on it as he explains it quite well. + Show Spoiler +
On March 09 2011 09:11 supernovamaniac wrote: With scourges chasing from behind, you can only turn at a certain angle to avoid the scourges hitting the shuttle from the back.
Though most players don't have to do this, Kal had to avoid the scourges coming in from the right top. Now, if this was the middle of the map, Kal can run away right bottom and keep his shuttle safe. However, there was no chance for Kal to do this as they were on the bottom of the map.
One wrong click in that video and the shuttle have exploded. Kal found the perfect angle to escape those scourges.
Now imagine for a second that we live in a dream world where scourges have entered SC2 through a incredibly weird dimension. The question is as a Protoss, when scourges fly near my deathball, can I micro my Collosi away from the Scourges while simutaniously targeting the scourges(and not the army that comes with it) to save my collosi. After which I proceed to destroy the Zerg army based upon my superior micro control? We can only hope.
Conclusion
I will when I have the time and energy perhaps add some more stuff which makes it more exciting in spectatorship for me. However I hope you understand partially know why I and many others think BW is such a more exciting game, It was perhaps a miracle, it was most likely unintended to be so big as it is today. The MANY flawed mechanics in AI and UI actually attribute to the spectatorship. Is it better then Sc2?For me it is, however is it better designed?That is not the same but I am of the opinion that SC2 is obviously better designed when it comes to AI and UI. Spectatorship for me however suffers due to this.
Now I would like to ask the Starcraft 2 fans who want to talk to me and have a discussion about it. I have a question, It has been bothering me for quite some time and I have yet to find an answer.
OUTSIDE of the fact that SC2 is leading us to an international E-sport(Noone denies that SC2 is internationally BY FAR more impressive in terms of widespread recocgnition).
Why do you like SC2?What makes it so impressive that you want to watch it?What makes you get up at akward Korean times to watch the GSL?What makes you thrilled when watching the games?What makes it exciting?
Help me understand this and hopefully I have made you a little more knowledgable as to why I and some of the ''BW fanboys'' are so attached to the game and why we get so defensive each time, and why we think BW is better.
Note that the goal of this is to have your input, I do not like to just be flamed by SC2 fan people or SC BW fan likewise.
TDLR: There is noone, If you want to understand some of the BW mentality, read it .......Read it all!
Edit: I just noticed I didn't explain the forcefields, I will when I have more time and energy, off to bed now.
Edit 2: Supernovamanic's explenation of Kal's scourge dodge added.
For me, I agree with everything you said only I want to add something more. Comebacks are my favorite part of a good BW and they happen almost every game. Right when a player looks overpowered(read, that first big marine+medic push in TVZ) some awesome unit will come and manage to keep the other player going. When playing or watching, I feel like either player can come back from almost any situation. I recently saw in Sayle's cast of a game between Semih and (darling?), Semih loses almost everything in a 2 fact push. He makes one reaver, gets 30 kills and ends up winning the game. Pure spectator orgasm, even in a nonpro game. Exemplary Games + Show Spoiler +
Ultimately it just comes down to a difference of opinion. Without personally arguing every little point, many SC2 fans imply disagree with a lot of the points you make. There's nothing more to really say about it, a lot of the hardcore BW vs SC2 fanboys (on both sides) speak from a very close-minded, absolutist position of one "better" than the other. That's just not the case.
I've always been a fan of SC/BW and played some thousands of b.net games, but never really followed the pro scene, and stopped playing the game around the time War3 came out. Never really looked back, and only came back to the franchise with the SC2 beta. So I guess I'm one of those "SC2 people", but kinda with a SC/BW background. I can understand and appreciate why it's awesome what Flash or JD are doing, but I'd rather watch SC2.
Why? Had to think about that question for a while.
For starters, because I play SC2 myself. I guess that makes relating to what happens in a stream or VoD a bit easier. Seeing MKP micro against banelings and failing at trying to do it myself makes me appreciate what he's doing so much more. I guess the same applies to SC/BW but then again it's literally been half a decade since I last played it.
Then there's the graphics, I won't lie. SC/BW is ugly. SC2 is shiny. I like looking at fullscreen HQ shiny graphics more than the pixel nightmare that SC/BW is these days. Graphics were never really an issue for me but there's a certain treshold that separates a golden oldie from an antique and with shifting technologies, BW has crossed that treshold for me.
Hm ... general gameplay. SC/BW is clunky. Units move weirdly. I'm kinda used to a more "natural" flow of things happening in games these days, and not only in RTS. Technology advances, not only graphics, but also AI, pathfinding etc. and SC/BW really shows its age in that regard.
Last point probably is the casting. As said before, I never really followed the pro scene, but whenever I did watch a game it was casted by those crazy, screaming korean commentators that made it hilarious to watch a single game but tiring to watch a whole series. With SC2, there are so many commentators for different skill levels and tastes and so many of them are really professional at what they're doing that I have no trouble finding some entertaining games to watch. I realize there were awesome english casters in SC/BW as well, Artosis/Tasteless/Day9 etc. came from somewhere, but watching SC2 is a much more accessable thing than watching SC/BW ever was for me.
So ... yeah, that's it basically. That's why I'd rather watch SC2 than SC/BW.
Well, as of now, SC2 mechanics are not even remotely as well figured out as BW. So the highest level SC2 is being played at (presumably GSL) is not as far from the level of the average viewer is playing as it was the case in BW. So it's much easier to relate to the situations in GSL matches, but it's still awesome if someone pulls out a new trick or something like that. GSL matches hugely influence the play you see on the ladder and thus the average viewer.
I have watched BW for a long time and I agree that it is more impressive if someone pulls an amazing stunt while playing this incredibly hard game. But those pros can only pull that off because they have trained for soooo long. It's all about practice, if you have watched the Nada vs July match in GSL recently, this becomes very obvious. Both players played nowhere near perfect, huge amounts of mistakes were made on both sides. Even though both are amongst the most accomplished BW players of all time.
As soon as players get as much SC2 practice as BW players have, there will be many many more cool micro moves. But more importantly, you missed the drama outside the game, which is still there in SC2. I usually watch SC2 mainly because I root for a specific player (yay foreigners actually having a chance!) or because some kind of grudge is going on. This is what makes it so awesome. Plus we finally have really good english speaking live casters who tend to make a game much more exciting and provide in-depth information about the game, which comes back to my first point - you can relate much better to the plays being pulled off, live.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not anti-SCII by any means, but it really seems like the magic of those "How the hell can he DO that?!" moments are gone in BW's antecedent — in fact, it seems the moments themselves are absent. Brood War, on the other hand, was filled with those events: Dropship / Scourge micro, incredible Storms, stacked Mutalisk harassment, a lone Dragoon singlehandedly winning the game with 33 kills (thx to shield battery), Marines dancing around Lurkers without taking damage... hell, even the sight of what seems like hundreds of units streaming out of a player's base is amazing to watch. Because Brood War's skill cap is so ridiculously high, we, as spectators, know that what they're watching is so stupidly difficult that a player pulling it off with ease gives us that rush of "Holy shit!"
That doesn't seem to happen in StarCraft II, at least not on the same scale. Sure, there are exciting moments that can and do occur, such as Archon toilets, Baneling drops, Hellions roasting entire mineral lines, and clutch Transfuse micro, to name a few. However, as a result of this new game being balanced around all players, it's hard for me as the audience to go, "Wow, I could never do that! That's amazing!"; the more prevalent thought is something along the lines of, "Oh, look, that ball of Marines just killed 100 Zerglings. Whoopee."
The enthusiasm is gone, and with lack of enthusiasm comes lack of interest. If things continue on their present course, my prediction is that StarCraft II will eventually become boring to me, and I will move back to Brood War, which has never bored me.
I didn't read your whole post, but as someone who loves bw and prefers it over SC2 I'm pretty sure I agree with most of it. However, I also watch SC2 and stay up late to watch the GSL. It's true that no aspect of SC2, gameplay wise, is better or even equal to bw yet. Nonetheless, as a spectator sport SC2 has improved by leaps and bounds over the marine-scv all ins we saw in GSL2.
One of the main draws of SC2 is potential. BW is pretty much played out strategically. The only new playstyle we've seen employed successfully recently is the +1 speedlot/sair in PvZ. Great and Zero's much vaunted hivetech zvz flopped except for 1 game. We get some funkiness here and there like Kal's proxy gateway into disruption web that he used against ggaemo, but overall bw progamers are simply using highly refined versions of strategies that have been around for years.
I and many other TLers weren't around to see boxer, nada, oov, savior, july, etc when they were in their prime and only get to see their brilliance through VODs. When I first got into bw, I loved reading about all the revolutions that took place in the game ie. july's muta stacking, the bisu build etc. However, this simply cannot match the excitement of witnessing history being made live. In SC2, I've seen with my own eyes game altering tactics and strategies as they happened. Units and tactics that allow a player to roflstomp the competition one month are being rendered completely irrelevent then next. This is why we have still yet to have a repeat GSL champion, although MC is the heavy favorite for this month. This volatility brings excitement in a way that the bw scene no longer can.
I fully understand that BW fans loves BW cause they've been following the game for 10 years, knows the game inside out and are fans of the players. For the same reason I understand why they dont enjoy SC2 cause it means nothing to them.
I personally think that BW is a great game and in many ways more polished then SC2 is at this point but I dont enjoy watching it because 1. I dont know the players and 2. I dont understand the game. I mean I know what it's about but I would never be able to tell who is ahead by looking at the game or if its good or bad to have defilers at the 12 minute mark.
So naturaly I like SC2 cause it's the game I know and play and I've become to like and cheer for some of the players. BW fans feels the same way of course, probally even stronger feelings about their game cause they've been doing it for a decade.
I also find any argueing about who is right and who is wrong and why what is better to watch or play to be total bullshit, am I'm sorry to say it like this but so is your blog. There is nothing to argue about, BW and SC2 are 2 different games with different fan groups, and thats about it. Even if BW is a better, more interesting, more balanced, more polished, more historical, more whatever game, there is no way I would enjoy watching it because it means nothing to me and I fully understand BW fans feel the same way about SC2. What I dont understand is why ppl always feel like argueing about it.
On March 09 2011 08:51 Archvil3 wrote: I fully understand that BW fans loves BW cause they've been following the game for 10 years, knows the game inside out and are fans of the players.
He gives other reasons in the OP and I, for one started the game AFTER SC2 came out so there are definitely other reasons.
So far, the posts have been really good. Keep them coming! Also one of the things why people might like SC2 better is because it's a new game. Just like BW you can create your own builds, experiment, you have new units to use and different combinations for them. The meta-game can always change because it's still so new!
@101TFP : Don't think that SC2 players aren't training as hard as BW players. They have established team houses and practice almost all day long, as far as I know. Though its relatively new, they work as hard. At the moment, it seems like the builds are getting settled down. Unlike a revolution kicks in (Bisu), I don't see a major change until a major patch kicks in.
Note before I start: This is my opinion. If you don't like my opinion, that's fine. However, if you choose to bash it, you better have good reasons.
I'm not going to talk about the games itself; its basically people who started with something first is used to it rather than the other system. Even IdrA and Jinro said that BW is better, but that's because they played BW beforehand.
I'm going to talk from the spectator's aspect on both BroodWar and Starcraft 2 (And steal some words from OGN's observer).
Where to begin... let's start off with BroodWar. BroodWar's observing system was never implemented by Blizzard. If you have played few games with your friends, you realize that you need a specific map for obs on UMS in order to have obs in game. The classic way (pick terran, lift, vision) is still used.
These two methods do not give any information on the two players in the game (1v1 lets say) except their visions. You do not see their mineral count nor gas, food, what's coming out from production buildings, or even upgrades. All you see is what you would see if you did not click on any building/unit during a replay. (Now, this section is based on the Proleague system. For Ongamenet Starleague and (previous) OGN held WCG events, they have their own system that showed the mineral, gas, and food).
Blizzard realized that StarCraft 2 needs an obs system, so they implemented. Unlike BW, it gives away tons of information: Army Value, Resource, Production, Upgrades, APM etc. They can even go into first person vision easily, unlike in BW where the television studio actually had to change the main camera from the observer's monitor to player's.
So many say that StarCraft 2 system is better since it has more info.
I actually beg to differ.
Have you seen those BroodWar matches that kept you on the edge of the seat? For example, ZvZ situation. Player A has 8 lings that are running towards Player B's base. Player B, however, has only 4 lings. B has 3 unused larvae, and those 3 morph at the same time. You wait in anxiety to see if those 3 larvae turn into drones or zerglings. If zerglings come out, Player B can successfully block the attack. However, if the drones come out, Player B will have a severe disadvantage. You wait on the edge of the seat to see what pops out.
However, in StarCraft 2, you know what the units are going to be even before they pop out. As soon as player hits the units, you know what's going to come out of the egg.
My point here? Extra information is actually ruining the observing aspect of StarCraft 2.
If the game was in StarCraft 2, I will know that Player B would've survived/died to the attack immediately, thus taking out the excitement/anxiety value of the match. In fact, when two armies battle in SC2, you can see the army value. Though this is only a rough estimate (and composition matters more than just the army value), the observers/spectators can guess that one player is going to win over the other player in the battle. If you cruise through the resources, you can predict which player is going to win based on the information.
However, in BroodWar, you don't have all these extra info. When Protoss's nexus is destroyed, the spectators/observers never know if the P player left 400 minerals for another nexus (399 incident anyone?). Though they use FPview to confirm how much minerals that it has few seconds later, the spectators are trying to figure out if the P player can make another nexus.
TBH, BW has more exciting moments because of the lack of information. With less information given to the spectators, the spectators have to guess what's going on, and hope that the player made the right decision. Sure, these moments will last for only few seconds, but that's what makes BW interesting.
On March 09 2011 08:51 Archvil3 wrote: I fully understand that BW fans loves BW cause they've been following the game for 10 years, knows the game inside out and are fans of the players.
He gives other reasons in the OP and I, for one started the game AFTER SC2 came out so there are definitely other reasons.
He did and I did also call them bullshit(sorry for the language, will keep it down from now) cause what it comes down to is personal preferences and the game and players that you love. As much as I think BW is a more polished game(SC2 will be some day but it takes quite some time you know), more balanced, requires more skill from the players and all the other good points he argues makes BW a better game to watch, it still means nothing to me cause I never watched BW, I hardly know the players, although I'm getting familiar with a few names and watched the latest OSL and MSL finals. But I just dont care about it. And I fully understand why BW players dont feel like watching SC2 as well.
Very good read. However I disagree(and think some things are misunderstood) with your post. For example, I feel like there are sufficient examples of micro which you outlined which exist in Broodwar. Take the "shuttle juke." To me that doesn't even look that hard. Just click, move, bring corsairs. Sure its cool, but that happens all the time with starcraft, with marines running back to their tank line in order to kill those banelings.
I actually partly feel like makes starcraft seem less "micro oriented" or "dynamic" is actually the collusus. The key unit in all 3 matchups, it is so generic. Just a giant machine that shoots lasers. You hardly micro it except to keep it away from damage. I feel like if this was made more "complex" than the matchup would become more evolved as a whole.
I am a BW fan. I was always wondering what is so special and interesting about sc2 that so many people follow it. Thanks to this thread and some answers, I finally realized that I missed some facts that are now obvious to me:
But more importantly, you missed the drama outside the game, which is still there in SC2. I usually watch SC2 mainly because I root for a specific player (yay foreigners actually having a chance!) or because some kind of grudge is going on. This is what makes it so awesome. Plus we finally have really good english speaking live casters who tend to make a game much more exciting and provide in-depth information about the game, which comes back to my first point - you can relate much better to the plays being pulled off, live.
When I first got into bw, I loved reading about all the revolutions that took place in the game ie. july's muta stacking, the bisu build etc. However, this simply cannot match the excitement of witnessing history being made live. In SC2, I've seen with my own eyes game altering tactics and strategies as they happened. Units and tactics that allow a player to roflstomp the competition one month are being rendered completely irrelevent then next. This is why we have still yet to have a repeat GSL champion, although MC is the heavy favorite for this month. This volatility brings excitement in a way that the bw scene no longer can.
Some people appreciate numbers of available English casters. I, sincerely haven't found an English sc2 caster who does not get on my nerve but that is probably because I didn't look for properly. I enjoy Korean commentating although I understand just 2 words.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Pandain wrote: Very good read. However I disagree(and think some things are misunderstood) with your post. For example, I feel like there are sufficient examples of micro which you outlined which exist in Broodwar. Take the "shuttle juke." To me that doesn't even look that hard. Just click, move, bring corsairs. Sure its cool, but that happens all the time with starcraft, with marines running back to their tank line in order to kill those banelings.
No. It's not easy.
With scourges chasing from behind, you can only turn at a certain angle to avoid the scourges hitting the shuttle from the back.
Though most players don't have to do this, Kal had to avoid the scourges coming in from the right top. Now, if this was the middle of the map, Kal can run away right bottom and keep his shuttle safe. However, there was no chance for Kal to do this as they were on the bottom of the map.
One wrong click in that video and the shuttle have exploded. Kal found the perfect angle to escape those scourges.
This is just asking for a flamewar. I can understand the point of the post- although I do not think it wise to trash sc2. I would just stick with the positives of BW. Even though its basically the same thing, it will help a lot with my first statement.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Pandain wrote: Very good read. However I disagree(and think some things are misunderstood) with your post. For example, I feel like there are sufficient examples of micro which you outlined which exist in Broodwar. Take the "shuttle juke." To me that doesn't even look that hard. Just click, move, bring corsairs. Sure its cool, but that happens all the time with starcraft, with marines running back to their tank line in order to kill those banelings.
No. It's not easy.
With scourges chasing from behind, you can only turn at a certain angle to avoid the scourges hitting the shuttle from the back.
Though most players don't have to do this, Kal had to avoid the scourges coming in from the right top. Now, if this was the middle of the map, Kal can run away right bottom and keep his shuttle safe. However, there was no chance for Kal to do this as they were on the bottom of the map.
One wrong click in that video and the shuttle have exploded. Kal found the perfect angle to escape those scourges.
And the fact that he basically had a half second window to move the shuttle, which he couldn't have gotten unless he was that good or he was babysitting his shuttle, and nobody progamer babysits anything.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Pandain wrote: Very good read. However I disagree(and think some things are misunderstood) with your post. For example, I feel like there are sufficient examples of micro which you outlined which exist in Broodwar. Take the "shuttle juke." To me that doesn't even look that hard. Just click, move, bring corsairs. Sure its cool, but that happens all the time with starcraft, with marines running back to their tank line in order to kill those banelings.
No. It's not easy.
With scourges chasing from behind, you can only turn at a certain angle to avoid the scourges hitting the shuttle from the back.
Though most players don't have to do this, Kal had to avoid the scourges coming in from the right top. Now, if this was the middle of the map, Kal can run away right bottom and keep his shuttle safe. However, there was no chance for Kal to do this as they were on the bottom of the map.
One wrong click in that video and the shuttle have exploded. Kal found the perfect angle to escape those scourges.
not only that, he had to find the exact right moment to trick the AI. a second earlier would let the scourge correct their path in time, and a second later would have been too late.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5xyj8.jpg)
