|
On October 13 2010 07:10 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I still fail to see where people are drawing conclusions that "blizzard is forcing BW to die." These IP rights, as indicated in the OP, have been fought long before SC2, and started when KeSPA started charging for proleague broadcasting rights, something that in terms of IP, belongs to Blizzard to determine, not KeSPA.
Long before SC2? SC2 was announced a couple months after the broadcasting issue (early 2007). Who knows how many years they've been working on it previously. The issue started being a big concern for Blizzard a couple months before the release of SC2.
|
On October 13 2010 08:07 Pandonetho wrote:
Well this thread seemed like the proverbial nail in the coffin for BW.
Oh well, personally I'm looking forward to seeing how things end up with SC2.
I got bored of watching pro BW for a while now. Seems to me like it's just stagnating. People always say the skill ceiling is nonexistent... true, but the human skill cap exists, and I'm pretty sure Flash attained it. Don't think anyone will ever get more legendary than him. Watching him steam roll everyone is not that exciting to me anymore.
Although for SC2 itself, I'm worried about it being a spectator sport too. All the spells in that game are so boring, no joke. No swarm, no plague, no OP abilities that are balanced by player skiller/other OP abilities, which is what made BW so exciting for most of its lifespan.
It's funny how it's supposedly stagnated. We've seen developments in a few match-ups last season...
Flash attained it? People said the same of NaDa, then Oov, then sAviOr, then Jaedong...
|
Flash attained it? People said the same of NaDa, then Oov, then sAviOr, then Jaedong...
There's a limit to everything. The world's best runner athletes have nearly reached their maximum capabilities in terms of effectiveness. At that point, if they start to build any more muscle it will actually become less effective and they'll become slower.
With how Flash has dominated everyone more decisively than anyone in history (come on, they made a god line for him), and considering how much he practices every day, I don't think we can see any giant increase any time soon, at least not in physical potential.
With regards to mind games and build orders and such, maybe, but at this point I personally feel like that area of the scene has stagnated.
|
It's a scary time. I love BW, although I've only been following it since the beginning of 2008 (I know some vets here have followed it much longer), and if it dies I'll be really sad to see it go.
I have to be honest though, right now I feel so much more excitement from the budding SC2 scene than I do from BW. The BW scene for a long time now has been Flash > Jaedong >>>>>>> Everyone else. The dynamic SC2 scene and constantly changing metagame right now are a lot of fun to follow for me, along with new heroes like FruitDealer.
But it's a gamble. If BW dies, but SC2 takes its place and becomes bigger than BW ever was, then I would personally think it was worth it (I know some would disagree). But if SC2 fizzles out, then the BW scene will have been killed for no reason and that's just sad.
If BW does end up dying, I won't forgive Blizzard if they don't do their best to keep the SC2 scene healthy even through hard times. It's not like they aren't rolling in swimming pools full of money from their WoW income.
Edit: Does anyone wonder if the rumored 'big name' player in talks with a European corp is Jaedong? He gave that "Could be today, could be tomorrow, could be next year..." vague answer to SC2. Flash on the other hand seemed adamant that he would be playing BW for 5 more years.
|
On October 13 2010 07:56 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 07:40 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
oh well new game new start, whole new chapter in starcraft esports You call SC2 esports? It's not worthy of that name. And it doesn't look like it ever will with how blizzard sees "esports". ;;
You're right, the official list of ESPORTS games is available here:
https://www.e-sports.or.kr/esports/Eng/esports_intro_10.kea?m_code=espor_10
SC2 just hasn't reached the level of competition of real ESPORTS like "Tales Runner" and "Chang Chun Online".
|
This is a very interesting topic, and some really good points have been made. I really dislike the bw vs sc2 lame arguments tho. I have been following the bw scene for a few years now, and im loving it. The game is awesome, the leagues and all the hype surrounding it in korea. Not much of a player since i got slow hands but played a bit, also played some wc3 and now im getting owned in mid platinum in sc2. But that is beyond the point. Im an avid fan of the korean bw scene and ive followed it for a while now here on TL.
The main argument i see the "bw fans" using against Blizzard on this matter is that they are trying to kill bw in order to make way for sc2, that they should let them both live and let bw die its own natural death. I find it naive to think that bw could live together with sc2 in korea. Just think about it:
- a new game made by Blizzard, with the best chances of being the true succesor in rts esports
- every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow.
- new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go.
- MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Now, Kespa is trying to hang on to it, because they have no chance at sc2. Blizzard didnt make the same mistakes again, and got bnet 2.0.
I dont rly like this Kespa conglomerate. They have been regulating the bw scene and making it into an esports, but not at the best conditions for the players. I still remember last year when Jaedongs contract was up, and the rules were so harsh that basically he had no choice other than to retire or resign with OZ. Yeap, Kespa sure loves them players. Dont give me the argument "but but, you need 12 hour training a day and lockdown in a room to get to high levels and entertain the public". Yea maybe, but those kids might not like it as much.
I guess what im trying to say is, that even without this scandal between IP rights and whatnot, the BW scene would die out eventually, not in 3-5 years but in maximum 1 year. I dont see both scenes surviving, and the only reason atm why the best players are not switching is Kespa and their hold over the proteams that pay some of the top. Slowly the old legends move and with them so will the audiences. You rly think the likes of Flash or Jaedong will keep playing OSL for 15k when there are 100k GSL tourneys in a game they could dominate ?
ps. Pls dont be so harsh yet with sc2. I agree its not as fun yet as bw, but there are 2 addons planned. It might take 3-5 years until wet see the final product, and it might actually be as balanced and good fun as bw is, maybe even sooner. Right now the game is in the early stages of development and evolution, but it sure is promising.
|
i wish i had someone to talk to about broodwar, and they would tell me its all going to be ok 
broodrawr fighting
|
Wow its all starting to become real. Guess we'll see the impact when proleague starts back up.
Not sure how the a teamers will perform without their practice buddies. imagine just getting stomped by your teams aces all day everyday. I think the lvl of play will deteriorate if all this is true. Not everyone is a practice machine and I fear there might be some burnout among teams weaker players.
|
Im ashamed of how people defend that SC:BW is dead
First, I LOVE SC:BW and SC2, and I believe both Esports can convive together and their scenes can be strong individually
Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
..and you still believe SC:BW was dead, after all???
Come on, I dont wanna point, but there are several parts in here interested to see SC:BW fail to piece, and makes me sad quite a lot, because the game/scene has potential to get enough funds for everyone (KesPa and Blizzard)
|
I think SC2 will overtake the success that BW had. It's much more spectator friendly and easier for people to understand what they're watching. BW required you to have a lot of hardcore knowledge about the game to enjoy the matches. Seems like SC2 already has a larger momentum globally already.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 13 2010 09:10 pR0gR4m3R wrote:
Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
And despite all of that, Proleague/Starleague finals attendances are still a mere shadow of their 2004-2006 numbers.
Even though we might see these things as great, they aren't great enough to keep the spectator base from shrinking.
|
17. A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently re-signed (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones).
I bet this is false because I can't think of any European country that would want to do this... TL is one of the best foreigner teams and is sponsored by an obscure app maker. The biggest company pouring money into SC2 would have to be Blizzard, and I could see maybe they had a hand in bringing Boxer to SC2. But Blizzard is American and has a lot more to gain. Plus, Boxer is probably more influential than Flash/Jaedong. Taking Flash or Jaedong would probably be the deathblow for Brood War, and I don't know why any European company would want to come in and do that. Obviously GOM and Blizzard might profit from killing Brood War, but not any European company that could just coax a Brood War veteran with a big name that never plays anymore or one of the best people already playing SC2.
IF it is true, I bet it is Stork. Stork admitted considering switching to another team (before he finally resigned with Khan) and it has been rumored that he was laddering on SC2 at some point. Most of us assumed he was considering switching to another SC1 team, but that may not have been the case. Flash says he has never even played SC2 and I believe him. He's also making way more than anyone else in Brood War so he'd be hard to lead away, especially when he cares about his legacy and he's not getting his hands on any money anyway since his parents are all investing it for him for now. Jaedong is more likely than Flash but I haven't heard anything about switching teams or playing SC2 with him. Could be Leta because Hite's status was probably up in the air until the merger with CJ. Nevertheless, Leta leaving would be less important than Effort leaving (2nd best Zerg vs. maybe 5th best Terran). Stork is arguably the best Protoss right now (great case for Kal though) and arguably the best Protoss ever (better case for Bisu though).
I dunno how I would feel about Stork leaving at this point. I wanted him to stay and for Brood War to keep going as before, but Effort has already jumped ship, Khan has no Terran, two Proleague teams have disappeared... It also sucks that he has received a pay cut for his loyalty, even as he has kept up much better than Jangbi and Bisu.
|
There is no guarantee that Boxer nor the rest of the current BW stars will do well in SC2. I do, however, hope for their success.
This was a nice long ride, BW. Thanks for entertaining me throughout high school... I will never forget it.
|
Personaly i gave the ball to Kespa and i asked Samsung help on it couse i start to shoot Gretech and the Corporation in europe will drop down like flies.
|
United States33389 Posts
Rumors aren't headlines. Moved back to Brood War.
|
On October 13 2010 09:10 pR0gR4m3R wrote:
Im ashamed of how people defend that SC:BW is dead
First, I LOVE SC:BW and SC2, and I believe both Esports can convive together and their scenes can be strong individually
Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
..and you still believe SC:BW was dead, after all???
Come on, I dont wanna point, but there are several parts in here interested to see SC:BW fail to piece, and makes me sad quite a lot, because the game/scene has potential to get enough funds for everyone (KesPa and Blizzard)
Everything you say might be true, but look at what has happened since then:
-Looks like there may be no more MSL ever, or STX Masters, or Proleague on MBC
-The start of Proleague is completely in doubt, two teams are already gone and MBC Hero might be next, the Proleague schedule will, at the very least, take up fewer days per week
-Flash has beat Jaedong again and again to the point it is getting depressing, while no one else is even putting up as big of a fight as Jaedong (though I heard Kal put up a decent fight in Los Angeles, of course Flash saved his life in a pool so that might effect Kal's ability to get the killer instinct in future fights against Flash). Flash has surpassed Bonjwa status and gone into God status where the tension is gone for now.
-Effort isn't even playing Brood War anymore, and might be going to SC2.
-The Hyungjoon reality show featured the awesome MBC Game Hero coach, who retired. MBC might be getting rid of the MBC Game Hero team. MBC Game might be completely Starcraft-free by November.
-nalRa's oldboy showed NalRa train for 11 episodes, and fail to win a single game at qualifiers. Compare this to SC2, where people are excited to see both Nada and Boxer qualify. JulyZerg also participated in qualifiers, and Garimto did pretty well in qualifiers. I think Grrrr... might have even tried out for fun in the first one. So people who enjoyed the nostalgia of the oldboy show might be more excited about SC2 than BW.
|
On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote:
- every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow.
- new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go.
- MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on).
In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper.
With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW).
No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow.
|
On October 13 2010 09:25 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote:
- every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow.
- new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go.
- MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive. Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on). In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper. With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW). No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow.
What makes you say Gretech and Blizzard don't want to see a team league? GOM is showing an SC2 team league exhibition less than 24 hours from now. I'm sure they'd love for it to expand into a team league. If the people saying GOM and Blizzard want to kill proleague are correct, surely they would have plans for a SC2 team league replacement.
|
On October 13 2010 09:34 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 09:25 moopie wrote:On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote:
- every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow.
- new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go.
- MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive. Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on). In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper. With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW). No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow. What makes you say Gretech and Blizzard don't want to see a team league? GOM is showing an SC2 team league exhibition less than 24 hours from now. I'm sure they'd love for it to expand into a team league. If the people saying GOM and Blizzard want to kill proleague are correct, surely they would have plans for a SC2 team league replacement.
Oh I don't know... maybe the fact that they straight out said they don't want team leagues?
|
team leagues are important though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
