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On October 13 2010 05:48 kinray wrote:
Fans always go where the money are. This is the natural way not the other way. If there are money there are fancy shows and people that are good at what they do and this lead the fans to the given sport. If you dan't belive me just check the most hyped sports and you will se it.
It actually does work both ways, but no one will ever throw money at something people are not really interested in. Fans are the real trigger for sponsors and just everyone who's gonna invest really.
It's all a huge bet. If for some reason SC2 starts dying out in 2 years because fans lose interest, then that bet will have been lost. Hence how unnatural and risky it is to force anything on customers when the product is supposed to be be successful on the long run.
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On October 13 2010 06:14 Raevin wrote:
Boxer, Nada, July and even Jaedong has outright said that SC2 can reach hights BW never did.
I don't think they've said anything more than "this game offers many new gameplay options", which is obviously true especially coming from progamers who thought about strategies for so many years.
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eSports and ESPECIALLY SC2 are never going to be mainstream popular around the world like you are suggesting. Infact people familar with the scene in Korea on these forums say its unlikely for a repeat of the BW scene either at its peak and it was likely just a big one-off thing thanks to the big rise of internet access in Korea and gaming in general there. That it was a perfect storm unlikely to be repeated, and just the fact Boxer is playing a new game isn't going to somehow cause the same craze this time around.
You dont know any of that for sure, nobody knows where SC2 will be, but right NOW it is at a great spot, compare where SC2 is to where SC1 was in the late 90s and you see a very clear picture of how much more acceptable RTS esports has become, and yes before you get mad, all that is owed to Brood War and what it did.
To say SC2 will be bigger than BW or die in 2-3 years is absolutley insane, you are just guessing either way.
But what isent guessing, is that BW has had a declining popularity without SC2 even being released, that cannot be argued in any way, shape or form.
So SC2 is here to carry the legacy, or at least try to, and those of us who support it, many of us do so BECAUSE we love Brood War, becuase we love how Blizzard RTS games play (bar War 3), because we want to see the name "Starcraft" carry on to a new high.
Why cant BW just do that? Becuase the game has been declining, some new, fresh ideas and a newer game were needed to get new fans interested.
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On October 13 2010 06:24 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:14 Raevin wrote:
Boxer, Nada, July and even Jaedong has outright said that SC2 can reach hights BW never did.
I don't think they've said anything more than "this game offers many new gameplay options", which is obviously true especially coming from progamers who thought about strategies for so many years.
Jaedong said in his interview with that swedish site that he thought SC2 could become a bigger game not just in Korea but rest of the world and that he was interested in playing in some tournaments abroad.
He didnt say SC2 was a better game, infact im sure he thinks BW is a better game, but the point is: He dosent think SC2 "sucks" and is a pile of "shit" as many of you are talking about
And the reason you talk this way is becuase you have directed all your anger about BW towards SC2, which is just not fair nor justified.
User was banned for this post.
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Osaka27154 Posts
I am getting tired of this BW vs SC2 bullshit, and I am getting tired of fans from each game taking shots at each other.
Stop fucking derailing threads into useless passive aggressive baiting.
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On October 13 2010 06:26 Raevin wrote:Show nested quote +eSports and ESPECIALLY SC2 are never going to be mainstream popular around the world like you are suggesting. Infact people familar with the scene in Korea on these forums say its unlikely for a repeat of the BW scene either at its peak and it was likely just a big one-off thing thanks to the big rise of internet access in Korea and gaming in general there. That it was a perfect storm unlikely to be repeated, and just the fact Boxer is playing a new game isn't going to somehow cause the same craze this time around. You dont know any of that for sure, nobody knows where SC2 will be, but right NOW it is at a great spot, compare where SC2 is to where SC1 was in the late 90s and you see a very clear picture of how much more acceptable RTS esports has become, and yes before you get mad, all that is owed to Brood War and what it did. To say SC2 will be bigger than BW or die in 2-3 years is absolutley insane, you are just guessing either way. But what isent guessing, is that BW has had a declining popularity without SC2 even being released, that cannot be argued in any way, shape or form. So SC2 is here to carry the legacy, or at least try to, and those of us who support it, many of us do so BECAUSE we love Brood War, becuase we love how Blizzard RTS games play (bar War 3), because we want to see the name "Starcraft" carry on to a new high. Why cant BW just do that? Becuase the game has been declining, some new, fresh ideas and a newer game were needed to get new fans interested.
I agree with most of this post so i don't see what we are arguing about, i just don't think it will be a successful eSport internationally like the BW scene in Korea. It'll still be a major niche and i don't think for 11 years either, but thats just my opinion.
I don't like the attitude we need a new game to get new fans.. but unfortunately videogames are seen like that now and nothing can change that. Even BW still gets new fans who have never played it or seen it before, but it just doesn't have the exposure and people are too concerned with graphics over a genuinely skillful game. In the future i think games are going to need to be appreciated not for their age so much if they are to be considered real sports by people. they can't keep changing all the time.. at least games like Quake Live show that theres still a lot of people around who can see the value of a game beyond visuals.
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On October 13 2010 06:33 Manifesto7 wrote:
I am getting tired of this BW vs SC2 bullshit, and I am getting tired of fans from each game taking shots at each other.
Stop fucking derailing threads into useless passive aggressive baiting.
thank you!!!
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Manifesto is like that big brother you always run to when things are getting out of hand
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Well, at least im glad i spent some of my best "gaming" years in BW, now with SC2 (that is a good game but im not interested in), i can move to another things with no regrets. GG.
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On October 13 2010 06:33 Manifesto7 wrote:
I am getting tired of this BW vs SC2 bullshit, and I am getting tired of fans from each game taking shots at each other.
Stop fucking derailing threads into useless passive aggressive baiting.
Though his post was unfair to what PoP said, was it deserving of a lifetime ban?
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Every time I come back the news just gets worse and worse. I think there was a general understanding that BW wouldn't be around forever, that eventually it would decline in popularity, but I would have never thought that it'd all unravel so fast. Friday night I thought there'd be at least another season, but now...
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Osaka27154 Posts
It is a beautiful morning and my bike is ready for a ride. I'm going to work now. And then I have 9 hours to sit and ban people because I don't have to teach today.
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So I guess most people who support Blizzard in this argue that Blizzard will somehow draw more money to the SC2 scene than there would be without their support and thus making eSports "bigger". Therefore, they accept that Blizzard has the right to kill BW off in a way.
a) Wouldn't the SC2 scene be just fine without Blizzards active involvement? I mean, sure, Blizzard wants to get some share of the revenues generated by eSports, but that doesn't mean it's in the best interest for fans or players. Blizzard didn't do anything good to the BW scene.
b) Game companies have pushed countless games in the past, just look at all the ridiculous games that were played at the WCG over the years. But that support always died down after a while. And if you think that Blizzard would be loyal to SC2, even after the major sales-phase of the game (and the expansions) died down - just look at what is happening right now. In other words, game companies have no interest in keeping a community alive forever. Actually, that would ruin it for them, because they can't sell more games.
So the question really is. Do you want to have what I'd call the 'fatal1ty eSport' where players and fans switch games every couple of years. Or would you rather see eSport evolve into more of a 'normal' sport where the game stays the same for a long time.
Personally, I prefer the last, since it really brings out the best of players and the game. That's what I would call the 'new level of eSport' and I thought BW was that new step. So for me, this is actually looking like a step back.
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On October 13 2010 06:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
It is a beautiful morning and my bike is ready for a ride. I'm going to work now. And then I have 9 hours to sit and ban people because I don't have to teach today.
Make sure to dedicate at least 30 minutes to destroying sharks and wrestling bears.
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couple things here.
1st) Kespa needs to go. This should be universally agreed upon. I don't like how it's being done by blizzard, but taking a stab in the dark and basing things on a best case scenario this will be one of those ends justify the means. Kespa was awesome in the begining, now it's just a hindurance.
2nd) SC2 did not need help to eventually overtake SC:BW. Given it would have taken longer because of Kespa, alot longer. In sense Blizzards tactics of Broadcasting rights, tournament oversight, and mass amounts of money being thrown at GSL are a two fold attack on Kespa and to act as a catalyst of propelling sc2 in popularity. It's unfortunate but taking several steps back and looking in it's probably the "quickest" way to do it. What it's led to is possible massive litigation where i feel will cause organized e-sports, at least korean e-sports to take a step back esp. if kespa and friends win.
3rd) To support the first statement in my second point. BW has slowly been losing mainstream viewership and popularity, it's become a niche mostly for the dedicated and hardcore. That is counter productive to furthering e-sports as a whole. You can't do much for an entire genre if you're slowly being pushed to the minority-fringe. While BW has given the most organized gaming model ever it wont help e-sports as a whole if it stays to it's own domain. supplanting a more popular game with future mainstream potential while building upon that foundation, in the long haul is a better for everyone involved. unfortuantly, like i said earlier, it's being done in a very distatesful way. But how much of that is Kespa's fault or Activision's greed i'll leave up to you.
4th) There is a very simple princinple of economics that needs to be considered. Blizzard/Activision/Kespa/GOM/Gretech/etc are all institutions. Institutions function to further themselves and their underlying bureaucracy. For Activision it's about money, for Kespa it's about Esports and control of that. You get the idea. In the FFA that's about to ensue you want Blizzard/Activision to come out on top, i hate to side with the evil empire. Hate hate hate it but it'll be for the better. to puruse their bottom line means more mainstream interests, globalization, uniformity, and creating a much larger pro scene out of korea which should translate into a better gaming experience and spectating experience for the rest of us. A truly global starcraft league that Blizzard is trying to create would be amazing, freaking amazing if they can pull it off.
finaly) Yea i loved BW. Love Love Love it. i cannot tell you how awesome it was when i first started playing BW in jr/high high school on 56k with my friends. Those were some awesome times. and as much as i remember jizzing over watching boxer replays at my friends house (he had cable.) the truth is this. BW had to have gone, eventually. SC2 was meant to supplant BW in the competitive gaming scene, those wanting to have both, while awesome, are terribly naieve and anyone who tells you otherwise is equally so. While BW will always hold a special place for me it's like the way i feel about my first girlfriend. She was awesome, i loved her, we had the most fun i can remember, and would do anything to go back to those days but things change. enviorments are completely different, she's been tainted by Kespa and we don't talk much anymore, or with the same spark as we use to. It's time to move on. Pro Gaming isn't like traditional sports where a hardwood court will not change. Where a basketball hoop stays the same and a free throw is a free throw. Pro Gaming is technology based and software based. Basketball/football/soccer = basketball/football/soccer. Pro gaming ecompass' too many things and believe me, it needs a large mainstream icon to rally behind. As disgusted as i am with how it's being brought about SC2 has the potential to start as the groundwork for a larger organized progaming scene. Just look at how Blizzard/activision has been constructed bnet2.0 Incomplete, missing alot that was previous in Bnet1.0, lack of alot of features, but from a coding standpoint it's a behemoth, it has the potential to do alot and that's what blizzards been trying to lay the groundwork for.
All of this is based of supposition of what could happen and from my standpoint what everyone's trying to do. I'm not clairvoyant but i think this needs to be made evident.
As far as the litigation in korea goes untill it gets settled and the dust clears in a few months after, we really wont know the fate of sc2 "GSL" and the impacts they'll have on the pro gamining community.
i aplogize for writing a novel, but it's a slow day at work.
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Honestly, quite apart from any difficulty with SC2 or SCBW, the thing that worries me most is the death of proleague. What successful sport doesn't have some kind of domestic league system going? An sc2 proleague would be great, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen; in that case, the loss of the bw proleague is a massive blow for e-sports in general.
As is, we get to see fruitseller and boxer and tlo playing what, every few months or so in the GSL? And then what? We wait for the next tournament? It's not the same as getting to watch these guys day in and day out, and it's harder to grow attached to players or teams when you can't consistently follow them. I've only been semi-following proleague for a couple of years, but it seems to me that most players get their first break from playing in proleague. Many players who wouldn't otherwise get exposure get to play to a wide audience thanks to proleague. I'd be terribly sad to see it go.
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I guess I can understand the crazy reaction people are having here, but even if these rumors are true I don't think it's so bad.
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As a long-time BW fan, I am not raging over SC2 creeping into the esports scene or whether it might replace BW. I want the best to happen for both BW and SC2, because I can get to see my old favourite stars like Boxer and Nada make it happen again in SC2 while enjoying the more intricate tactical acuteness of BW.
I am DISGUSTED instead by how Blizzard is trying to kill off BW just to force SC2 up our throats. Just because I enjoy watching BW does not mean I have to sacrifice that to watch another different game entirely, even if it is being forcefully touted as BW's successor. Whatever.
It makes me so SAD that the BW proscene is deteriorating. What happened to rational thinking here, that even veterans of TL are getting warned (or temp banned?) in favor of newer members?
I loved TL for its unique BW identity in the past, and for its wonderful jackpot of information on all players possible. It was a wonderful place for VoD's and live report threads. What is happening to all that now?
Now, TL is becoming more unrecognizable by the day. Slowly, SC2 fills up more of the forums and new members are paying less respect to what made this site successful in the first place: BW.
Sigh... just stop this madness already. Thanks for all the translations so far, but just... keep TL the way it always was... PLEASE!
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Wow, thats alot of news. Thanks for the updates.
EDIT: I had no idea the fighting between blizzard and kespa had been going on for so long. I wish they would be able to work out these problems and focus more on providing SC2 to the masses.
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On October 13 2010 06:57 cocoa_sg wrote:
Sigh... just stop this madness already. Thanks for all the translations so far, but just... keep TL the way it always was... PLEASE!
Actually, TL can't stay the way it was two years ago.
Read the banner at the top of the page:
Starcraft Progaming News | Community | Team
It's a site about Starcraft, in short. Not just Starcraft: Brood Wars, but Starcraft 2 as well. If Teamliquid waits out until BW dies before fully embracing SC2, by then it will have missed its window of opportunity to become the world's best SC2 site. It's already the world's best BW site (as far as I'm concerned), but staying there without being active in the SC2 scene is simply inviting stagnation and decline.
This is a time of transition, and Teamliquid has changed with the times, just as it had to do to continue to be relevant. It's not easy, and it certainly isn't pretty at times- but I'm confident the site is headed in the right direction.
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