EPTSummarizing the Current KeSPA - Gretech situation - Page 10
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remag
Germany354 Posts
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
On September 08 2010 00:27 SubtleArt wrote: So when did Gretech get all these rights? Why weren't they given to Kespa? just curious When Kespa refused to cooperate with Blizzard and refused to buy the rights. Gretech bought them instead. Now Gretech is fucking Kespa up for it. That's afaik. | ||
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Tristanity
Malaysia45 Posts
Anyway.. just a point. SC:BW would be dead without the Koreans. The maps that make the game balance are all korean made ( Mapdori  ) Look at Warcraft for an example. Korean's dont treat it like how they treat SC:BW, and look where it went. If it was not for SC:BW, WCG would not be so great either... | ||
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noob4ever
Denmark59 Posts
So if Kespa truly are non-profit, why would they lose? Well, Im just saying, its not a clear cut case, in fact a court-ruling would be interesting to follow. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 07 2010 23:45 aru wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=48622#10 is a pretty good summary of how stuff flows in Korean e-sports. Outdated but still mostly accurate. Thanks. I had always been fuzzy on just who paid who and what the relationships (control) was. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league? The team league is what made it Esports and not a conglomeration of tournaments. The team league is what made Korea the center of Esports that other games like Halo and Super Smash Bros cannot even come close to. Team league is a format where players have dependable salaries due to dependable games. Team league is a dependable format for sponsors. Proleague IS Esports, and the most ridiculous decision ever is for GOM to say no to Proleague in SC2. I'd be fine with SC2 if it had a Proleague, but without it it's no more of an Esport than Halo. Without Proleague, the entire infrastructure is gone. Please go back and read before you make a silly post like that. Go understand the Proleague and what it did for SCBW and then talk about it. Thank you. | ||
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jyLee
United States350 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:03 rackdude wrote: The team league is what made it Esports and not a conglomeration of tournaments. The team league is what made Korea the center of Esports that other games like Halo and Super Smash Bros cannot even come close to. Team league is a format where players have dependable salaries due to dependable games. Team league is a dependable format for sponsors. Proleague IS Esports, and the most ridiculous decision ever is for GOM to say no to Proleague in SC2. I'd be fine with SC2 if it had a Proleague, but without it it's no more of an Esport than Halo. Without Proleague, the entire infrastructure is gone. Please go back and read before you make a silly post like that. Go understand the Proleague and what it did for SCBW and then talk about it. Thank you. Just to add on to that, Teamliquid. | ||
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eNtitY~
United States1293 Posts
Kind of reminds me of season 2 of Entourage when Ari has his boss come back after he propelled the business and kept it thriving all those years and he wants to take everything for himself and profit when he did shit but put the right elements in place and make the company. | ||
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
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ChaosSmurf
United Kingdom175 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9527 Posts
Anyways, thank you for this summary, it's greatly appreciated. | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive. First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is). Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes. QFT Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
Personally I wouldn't mind if they killed proleague or even the sc1 scene if they did it for the right reasons but I'm afraid they aren't. It was a great time watchiong sc1 vods and streams. But now I feel like its over soon. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
Seriously, both sides are stubborn and this will only hurt the fans and players and could have the potential to kill SC related e-sports in Korea forever. | ||
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Ciddypoo
United States11 Posts
Starcraft has an extremely long history, even before it was big in Korea and Blizzard was somewhat-interested in keeping it afloat. I still remember match reports before replays, and reading about soso's experiences and what he was thinking vs. some older players like Maynard or Grrr is stuff that I never will forget. But I also enjoy, at least at the surface-level, what KeSPA has accomplished in that teams and proleague can exist and draw viewers that do not even really understand the game. Attaching teams and players is extremely powerful, after all. It's a shame that both parties are being exceptionally bull-headed, given that a collaborative effort would probably result in something more beneficial to the fans. I still believe that Proleague is the cornerstone of Korean e-sports in that it embodies more Eastern tendencies to favor collective efforts over individual efforts, which is what Blizzard seems to be pushing with Starcraft 2 and their extoling of individual players. Both can exist in their respective cultures, but bridging that gap I think is much more difficult. As for Korean e-sports, Proleague allows teams to flourish and allows players to develop, likely faster than they would on an individual basis, since even though a player on a team is not necessarily raking in the wins, they can still be beneficial to the team through particular sniping situations, and serve as good practice and encouragement to the players on the bench. In this way, you have more players reaching that 'higher level' of play since everyone is competing on that level. Take into contrast with the Starcraft 2 situation -- it currently favors individual accomplishments, which is an excellent way to promote *accessibility*. But it is more difficult for the scene to grow as a whole, I think, since people would be less inclined to share strategies with each other in order to make that next big win (you saw this a lot in the old fighting game scene, where top players would not reveal secrets until they had won X tournament; still kind of occurs). But overall, I'd think the problem is really just due to core cultural differences and goals between two companies. I personally think that KeSPA should be able to continue with the Proleague and Brood War ... for now. But I also believe that there comes a point where older things should be retired in favor of the newer things in order to continue generating interest. Whereas some things like Chess or other sports are timeless and rarely show age, a video game is different. This is one of the biggest hurdles that e-sports needs to overcome; a sudden shift from one game to another is extremely disorienting, and does not really occur with what we would call 'traditional' sports like football, hockey, basketball, or even chess and the like. They are in static form, and can exist that way because we can continue to use technology to enhance that form or media. We cannot do the same with a computer game (to an extent --- for example, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, a classic fighting game has a modern incarnation in its HD Remix that has replaced the former at the higher-levels of play, but the game *is* different, and you do have opponents and supporters). Retiring a game is not always bad. And at its core, I think that a majority of fans are most enamored with the teams and the players, not the core gameplay. That's why you can have 3 year old Koreans getting air-time for giving hearts to Bisu. And that's why a person like me, who played Starcraft on its initial release, then stopped around 2002 -- could continue to enjoy the scene throughout the decade by continuing to keep up (and wave goodbye to) the players I loved like Maynard, soso, Boxer, nal_ra, Savior, and the like. I can empathize with the players who still play Brood War and have invested so much time and effort into the game. And yes, it's somewhat unfair and unrealistic to think that a pro player would give up a comfortable lifestyle in favor of a less predictable one. But eventually, things do come to an end, and it's important that we look to the future and consider other possibilities, or even the best possibilities out of a worst-case scenario. And I think this holds especially true for the pro-players who are getting swept up into all of this nonsense as well. I still think Starcraft 2 can and will succeed, but I also think that something similar to a Proleague would be more beneficial than the current "individual prize pool" tournaments. | ||
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trevabob
United Kingdom350 Posts
so fucking what I'd rather see BW run in a shitty way than see it killed | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On September 07 2010 22:40 TheStupidOne wrote: If it was really just about the money, I have a feeling KeSPA would have signed for rights years ago. This spat isn't anything new. To me this is a fight over control, who controls the e-sports scene. Now, how much control is really up in the air at this point, we know both KeSPA and Blizzard have giant egos. It's just as likely that Blizzard just wanted a guy on the KeSPA board or wanted to negotiate better player conditions, or that Blizzard really does want to micromanage every single aspect and leave KeSPA as nothing more than a liability puppet. We won't know until things goto court (and even then we may never know). As much as I hate to say it, and now that it's basically come down to a legal fight, I want KeSPA to win. KeSPA's legal stance rests on the players owning the rights to their performances, vs Blizzard saying anything made or using Starcraft IP is thus owned by them as well. If Blizzard wins then a horrible precedent is set. Imagine if Bic owned the rights to anything you wrote with their pens, or Xerox owned the rights to anything they copy. How absurd is that? Yet Blizzard is arguing that's the case here. As big of assholes KeSPA has been towards the players, there's far bigger chance of changing KeSPA's attitudes and player regulations over changing Blizzard's. If players walk and strike on KeSPA, they're hurting bad, they just lost their money maker and they'll be pressed hard to negotiate better terms. If players walk and strike on Blizzard, Blizzard just goes "pffft I already made boatloads off the game, see ya!" and ignores them. This fight may end up being one of the most pivotal IP (and by extension, consumer) rights fights ever. Just wish our side didn't benefit KeSPA :\ There is a huge difference between regular property like pens and intellectual property like books or software. With pens, you can use it whenever you want and you own all derivatives. With books software or music, you are simply purchasing a liscence to the product to be used in a manner that the owner sets forth. In music it's listening, in movies its viewing, and software its distributing and in all cases it involves owning the rights to all derivatives. | ||
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