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On September 01 2010 04:37 Zeridian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote:
it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts
<_<
>_> good to know you're keeping tally, and are elitest enough to care about post count
he's trying to say that some of the newer TL members who haven't really followed the Korean BW scene and only the SC2 scene don't understand the huge role of Kespa and are blatantly biased because they only joined TL when Blizzard was announcing SC2.
Anyway, all I want to say is that both sides are fucked up and its such a damned shame that either SC2 or the legendary SCBW scene we all love has to suffer in some way. All this is because of damn shortsighted companies only pursuing profits. Blizzard, that's you too, you money-sucking freak, charging $70 USD for 1/3 of SC2... possibly totaling over $200 for a single game?? What the shit.
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On September 01 2010 04:32 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 04:20 Teddyman wrote:On September 01 2010 04:00 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 03:53 Teddyman wrote:On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote:
Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years. The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions. Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were. It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it. Ok I get the "not wanting to pay the semi-official bribes = greed" part, now how does this relate to their dealings in a non-communist, non-totalitarian country? Please don't misconstrue what I say. Be more objective than that... The point is that blizzard tried to assert their "power" in china, it failed miserably. Now they are trying to assert their power in korea, and I don't think the korean government is going to roll over and let them have their way. It is just going to take time to work through all the legal issues and draw a new line.
I think just the fact that all 3 organizations that have something to do with broadcasting ESPORTS in Korea are negotiating is proof enough that they know they'd most likely lose in court. Wasn't there a thread not long ago where the ministry of culture said they'd have an arbiter for IP rights issues? That will be the last chance to knock some sense into anybody involved.
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On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote:
it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts
<_<
>_>
I have less than 100 posts and I'm siding with Blizzard. Though, it's funny to note that I registered before you did.
I understand Gretechs position, and I honestly feel that if OGN can get on board and show support for esports as a whole (In that they're now allowed to run a BW and SC2 league), theres no reason KeSPA shouldn't. I thought KeSPA was for esports growth and the fans, yet here they're claiming to only have support for BW?
I also noticed this:
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:
Gretech has said "If KeSPA rejects negotiations related to monetary payments, then from an industry operation viewpoint, let us know how you will reimburse Gretech", and "Since there may be a lot of noise if we reveal the amount of monetary payment we want and may look like we're forcing the amount, let us know if you have a monetary payment in mind".
Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but it sounds like Gretech is/was open for suggestions on how KeSPA would reimburse them if not through monetary payments. Hell the last part even asks what amount KeSPA has in mind. KeSPA's response? 0.
Anyway GOM has all the balls in their court now. I bet at least some people in KeSPA regret boycotting the GOMTV Classic.
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On September 01 2010 03:45 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 03:42 hystorm wrote:
holy shit this is so bad. the end of bw esports in korea is almost upon us because of fucking douchebags who want some extra change.
fuck you kespa, fuck you blizzard. I really believe that the government would side with korean based organizations like MBC and KeSPA who have been around and growing esports for years, and not with a company like blizz who is just coming in trying to cash in on what the proleagues developed on their own.
Blizz has offices in SKorea. They're not some big foreign company coming over and trying to file lawsuits...there are Koreans working for Blizz, born and living in Korea representing Blizzard in SKorea. -_-
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On September 01 2010 04:47 Teddyman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 04:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 04:20 Teddyman wrote:On September 01 2010 04:00 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 03:53 Teddyman wrote:On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote:
Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years. The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions. Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were. It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it. Ok I get the "not wanting to pay the semi-official bribes = greed" part, now how does this relate to their dealings in a non-communist, non-totalitarian country? Please don't misconstrue what I say. Be more objective than that... The point is that blizzard tried to assert their "power" in china, it failed miserably. Now they are trying to assert their power in korea, and I don't think the korean government is going to roll over and let them have their way. It is just going to take time to work through all the legal issues and draw a new line. I think just the fact that all 3 organizations that have something to do with broadcasting ESPORTS in Korea are negotiating is proof enough that they know they'd most likely lose in court. Wasn't there a thread not long ago where the ministry of culture said they'd have an arbiter for IP rights issues? That will be the last chance to knock some sense into anybody involved.
OGN made the deal because they have the funding and don't want any delays in their operations and OSL.
Kespa and MBC aren't really negotiating because the terms gretech is giving them are not even remotely satisfactory to them so negotiation is pointless.
On September 01 2010 04:50 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 03:45 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 03:42 hystorm wrote:
holy shit this is so bad. the end of bw esports in korea is almost upon us because of fucking douchebags who want some extra change.
fuck you kespa, fuck you blizzard. I really believe that the government would side with korean based organizations like MBC and KeSPA who have been around and growing esports for years, and not with a company like blizz who is just coming in trying to cash in on what the proleagues developed on their own. Blizz has offices in SKorea. They're not some big foreign company coming over and trying to file lawsuits...there are Koreans working for Blizz, born and living in Korea representing Blizzard in SKorea. -_-
Blizz is a foreign company, don't kid yourself. Just cause it has staff in skorea doesn't mean it is skorean.
That's like saying that just because NCsoft has offices in america it means they aren't a foreign company, when in reality their still very clearly a korean company.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 01 2010 04:45 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 04:37 Zeridian wrote:On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote:
it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts
<_<
>_> good to know you're keeping tally, and are elitest enough to care about post count he's trying to say that some of the newer TL members who haven't really followed the Korean BW scene and only the SC2 scene don't understand the huge role of Kespa and are blatantly biased because they only joined TL when Blizzard was announcing SC2. Anyway, all I want to say is that both sides are fucked up and its such a damned shame that either SC2 or the legendary SCBW scene we all love has to suffer in some way. All this is because of damn shortsighted companies only pursuing profits. Blizzard, that's you too, you money-sucking freak, charging $70 USD for 1/3 of SC2... possibly totaling over $200 for a single game?? What the shit.
exactly ^^
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Because of this, there are opinions within KeSPA to force the operation of the 10~11 Proleague season. Upon operating the 10~11 Proleague season, if Gretech starts an issue related to IP Rights, then they will deal with after the fact, and in the worst case scenario of the season being forcibly stopped, that they would be willing to disband all the progame teams.
Oh god.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 01 2010 04:49 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote:
it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts
<_<
>_> I have less than 100 posts and I'm siding with Blizzard. Though, it's funny to note that I registered before you did. I understand Gretechs position, and I honestly feel that if OGN can get on board and show support for esports as a whole (In that they're now allowed to run a BW and SC2 league), theres no reason KeSPA shouldn't. I thought KeSPA was for esports growth and the fans, yet here they're claiming to only have support for BW? I also noticed this: Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:
Gretech has said "If KeSPA rejects negotiations related to monetary payments, then from an industry operation viewpoint, let us know how you will reimburse Gretech", and "Since there may be a lot of noise if we reveal the amount of monetary payment we want and may look like we're forcing the amount, let us know if you have a monetary payment in mind". Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but it sounds like Gretech is/was open for suggestions on how KeSPA would reimburse them if not through monetary payments. Hell the last part even asks what amount KeSPA has in mind. KeSPA's response? 0. Anyway GOM has all the balls in their court now. I bet at least some people in KeSPA regret boycotting the GOMTV Classic.
my comment was mean to say that a loto f the people siding with blizzard maybe don't have the best understanding of the situation since they never really followed the SC:BW scene, if you are aware of everything and still side with blizzard then ok go for it,
as of Kespa not promoting SC2, they probably would if Blizzard had not threatened them first, would you try to promote something done by someone who is threatening your very existence?
also they can't really do that since blizzard gave all rights to Gretech so yeah it's not because KesPa did not want to that they did not try to get E-sports running for SC2 (heck they even got stuff running for Special Force) but because Blizzard threatened them and won't let them do anything about SC2 now.
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The only good thing coming from all this is the willingness of KeSPA to run the leagues without the agreement with Blizz/Greed-tech. Looking forward to another MSL and proleague.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
See, I'd love to watch the GSL and everything. But honestly, I'm not sure I should be supporting those clowns at GOM, and their determination to milk BW for all it's worth before leaving it to die. Disgusting.
It'll be interesting to see a court case come out of this, and whether or not KeSPA would get anywhere with their argument.
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On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:
[...]
The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule".
[...]
heh, so BW watching is an obstacle? Thing about GSL schedule is that it might be also damaged with Ottogi Tekken, Sudden Strike, random soccer match or any TV program. Just that they only can push Kespa and not others.
By the way, what are opinions of SC2 players on this, especially ones who used to play BW?
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I think it's kind of hilarious that you all think the BW scene will die if KeSPA pulls the leagues and disbands the teams and attacks North Korea and resurrects Hitler. It won't. A new power will rise to the occasion, because people will make money wherever there is a market. Brood War, just 2 years ago, was almost a USD 100,000,000 / year industry, and that's just straight profit from broadcasting the games. Let's not even get in to the dynamics of sponsors and merchandise. There is money to be made with Starcraft: Brood War, with or without KeSPA, and someone will seize the day if the current power is ousted from their thrones.
Also, didn't Blizzard and GOM try to support their own BW starleague 2 years ago and KeSPA essentially told them to fuck off? Anyone remember that? Yeah, I do.
Blizzard supporter (with over 800 posts, swanized [nice red text, btw])
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On September 01 2010 05:32 Pafnucy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:
[...]
The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule".
[...] heh, so BW watching is an obstacle? Thing about GSL schedule is that it might be also damaged with Ottogi Tekken, Sudden Strike, random soccer match or any TV program. Just that they only can push Kespa and not others. By the way, what are opinions of SC2 players on this, especially ones who used to play BW?
Well what company in their right mind would allow themselves to be counter-programmed by a game that they own the broadcast rights to? That's the kind of thing Kespa would probably try too
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I can see both sides of the argument but it really blows that the most affected will be the gamers and fans of the game.
Killing BW like this will have to have some negative impact in SC2's development, I wish Blizzard would take this into consideration.
Also, who is KesPa trying to kid here? They make no money out of running proleague? They must be a pretty altruistic bunch though I seriously doubt they go through all the trouble of coordinating a year long league just out of the goodness of their hearts. Maybe they can try to pay off Blizzard with some chicken? hey it worked for STX when they paid off Oz!
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KESPA hwaiting! Fu Blizzard. Only Kespa really care about e-sport.
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5003 Posts
On September 01 2010 01:02 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 23:57 Milkis wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote:
what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2... kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard. People are still forgetting the last 'intellectual rights negociations' kespa got involved in. Remember when they demanded MBCGame and OnGameNet had to pay them money to broadcast proleague? They're a bunch of fucking hypocrits denying any form of intellectual rights payment. You could argue that Kespa is non-profit, that they dont earn anything off organizing proleague, and that if anyone should pay for proleague rights it's MBCGame and OGN, but Kespa has used its position as official proleague organizer to demand intellectual rights payments from MBCGame and OGN earlier, so they should step up to the plate now too.
Oh, I definitely agree with that. Don't worry, I'm not defending KeSPA -- I'm just stating facts. KeSPA *is* a non profit organization. I'm just pointing out they're not making any money from SC: BW.
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On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote:
I love how Kespa tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Are you kidding me? They kept a TEN year old game on national TV. Do u know how hard that is? In every country except Korea, they have no gaming stations at all, let alone 2, and they don't play a ten year old game.
I personally reside with Kespa as it makes sense for them to not promote SC2. I mean, how would it help them? It would be like promoting your competitor. It says Kespa is paying a fee, and therefore, they don't need to make changes to their schedule just for SC2
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On September 01 2010 05:55 amazingoopah wrote:
Also, who is KesPa trying to kid here? They make no money out of running proleague? They must be a pretty altruistic bunch though I seriously doubt they go through all the trouble of coordinating a year long league just out of the goodness of their hearts. Maybe they can try to pay off Blizzard with some chicken? hey it worked for STX when they paid off Oz!
This... Kespa is no TL.Net, TL does all this for us just because they want, kespa has show so many times they do it for money...
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I said this in the other thread, but KeSPA should take the matter to the korean courts. For one it will buy them time while Proleague continues and has a chance of working to their advantage (as before).
+ Show Spoiler +The following is a crazy ass 'what if' that likely has about as much chance of happening as a zombie invasion:
If worse comes to worst, KeSPA should join forces with China and relocate their teams there. KeSPA could still be in charge of the teams/sponsors, but the location of broadcast would be in china (and broadcast to Korea as well as in China). China would benefit by increasing their esport market considerably (and could even add a team or two of their own). The Korean sponsors would still get the same benefit though now will reach an entire new audience as well. Players will spend most of the year abroad, but they are indoors 90% of the time anyway so just cover up the windows on the team houses and they wont know the difference -.-' and Blizzard will have no chance of winning an IP claim in China as we've seen before. The only one that is still screwed by this is OGN/MBC, I have no good solution for that :/
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Fuck you blizzard... really, when I was just starting to give a chance to SC2 (I wanted to buy the fucking lame game) and now this.... I hope we still get proleague and OSL/MSL, but I dont want to see them forced to disband the teams.
Since the start of this fucking fight Im with Kespa, I trust those guys (yeah they did some fucked up things, but still thanks to Kespa I love this game so much).
Long Live SC:BW.
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EPT
