EPTFlash and Jaedong: Clash of Paradigms - Page 4
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Raz0r
United States287 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
How could this happen?! My heart hurts  | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
most gamers are INT, so probalby flash as INTJ and jaedong as INTP. just a guess. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4178 Posts
On August 29 2010 08:03 Raz0r wrote: WHEN WILL PROTOSS DOMINATE AGAIN? Until Bisu finds his mojo or stork decides to play well :D | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
Know your chinese. Yang is light - solid, concrete, yin is shadow - mercurial, shifting. | ||
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everstarleague
China89 Posts
On August 28 2010 06:13 Exteray wrote: Epic write-up! I like the comparisons you draw between the two players. In the wake of SC2, this will probably be the last major rivalry in SC:BW. I think it may be not really, for there has been some move of osl or Kespa. In September Osl final will be held in China for the first time,and the first oversea starleague. Some media has bagun to hype it now, so some game-liker originally not known osl or even broodwar (obviously not known sc2) will appreciate the feast and adore the really superstars. In face of rude invasion of today's blz, Kespa and starleague must survive from it and continue to prosper. It is what real fans of sc want to see! EVERstarleague! Maybe you could be dazzled and puzzled by the hype and hue of sc2 for some months, but when you wake from it, you must love broodwar starleague more than ever and feel you are cheated by blz. A true game is not valued by fashion and hype, it is by time and internal property. We play Chinese chess and go not less than chess, even if it has three dimensions. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On August 29 2010 08:03 Raz0r wrote: WHEN WILL PROTOSS DOMINATE AGAIN? they never dominated .. bisu was a fluke .. a disturbance in the force .. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 28 2010 11:30 Taekwon wrote: What?And a safe player is a severe litotes lol. On August 28 2010 13:21 Musoeun wrote: Yes, it would be so much more epic if the Protoss had a worthy champion of their own, but what can we do? At one point, Bisu could claim to be up there, but those days are long gone. Stork is always one of the best players in the world, but he's never been quite dominant enough to stake a claim of his own.It does make me sad, though: where is the Protoss exemplar? On August 28 2010 15:22 Prototype wrote: Thanks for the feedback: I always want to hear criticism.I am invariably skeptical of overly hyperbolic, histrionic, presumptuous and generally conceited pieces of writing. This case is no different, and while it is not a terrible plug (let's be honest here) it is certainly of that nature. (I am all for a bit of irony, however...) I still like the article, for what it is, but I would never buy into its conclusions. Most notably, the segment about Flash/Terran, while ostensibly the most well developed - the Jaedong/Zerg section being but a small modicum in comparison - I find to be severely and fundamentally lacking in the way it ignores one of the oldest, finest, most esteemed traditions of Terran play - dating back to Boxer himself - which is, to this day, still realized by several contemporary practitioners. I find it difficult to believe this tradition would not characterize 'Terran play', nor do I think it can be completely synthesized with Flash's style of play. I admire Flash for what he does - he has indeed contributed more to the current body of trends and stratagems than just about anyone else - but to say he alone epitomizes 'Terran play' is to lessen the beauty and diversity of the wellspring that is Starcraft. For your first point: I do see what you mean about my writing sounding "presumptuous and generally conceited"; I've read pieces where I had exactly the same reaction, but this is something that makes me a little sad in general, because I'm not sure it's wholly in the writer's control whether or not the reader will view him as pretentious. For what it's worth, I was trying to use the best words I could find to say what I wanted, not to impress people with my vocabulary. Your second point, that "to say Flash alone epitomizes Terran play is to lessen the beauty and diversity of Starcraft" is well taken. Maybe I should have given that more thought. Still, I would argue that in a certain way Flash's style epitomizes tendencies that are built into the Terran race, to an extent that Boxer's, for instance did not. One point that I didn't have time to work into the article was: if you want to know what the essence of a race is, look at its mirror match-up. TvT is the most strategic match-up: people have compared it to chess. It's very much about long-term strategy: choosing the right strongholds at the right times. ZvZ on the other hand, is nearly all short-term tactics and battle micro. On August 28 2010 17:07 TriniMasta wrote: I'm tired of it too, but what could I do: for better or for worse, that's the only picture that instantly comes to mind when you think of Flash. At least I tried to connect it to the article with the caption.Really? I feel sick that FlaSh gets such a common picture and Jaedong gets a baller one. I'm kind of tired of that picture lol On August 28 2010 23:29 Wings wrote:on a side note, I love how we've "classified" Flash and Jaedong as different races. We compliment people like Stork for his PvT. But. We worship JvZ and FvT. And the matchup is no longer TvZ or ZvT... it's Freaking JvF or FvJ. Small point here, but for my money, the only one of those acronyms that is legit is JvZ. First of all, that was the original, and wordplay becomes old when you reuse it too much. Secondly, Jaedong's ZvZ was different because at a time when ZvZ for everyone else seemed nearly a coin toss, when Jaedong played, it was the most one-sided match-up in all of Starcraft. Thus it was like Jaedong played a different race vZ than every other Zerg did. On the other hand, take, say Jaedong's vP: these days it's probably even stronger than his vZ, but JvP still sounds silly because there are other Zergs who also dominate Protoss. Same for Flash's TvT: yes, it's extremely strong (like all his match-ups) but there are other good TvTers out there, in a way that wasn't true for ZvZ when JvZ was first coined.On August 29 2010 06:23 L0thar wrote: Well, two points. First of all, I pretty much agree with you that Flash has incredible game sense. I hope I didn't make it sound like Flash's builds account for every single possibility that might happen in every game down to every last detail, because that would just be silly. I agree with your analogy: his builds are like outlines. They cover general possibilities (e.g. opponent rushes, opponent expands quickly, opponent applies pressure while expanding, etc.) and Flash has to fill in the details with his game sense. The times I think Flash is slow to react is if a hole has been found in his build in general: e.g. this build comes up with turrets too late to counter super-fast mutas. Whereas other players might just change up their builds on the fly, Flash likes to have a one-size-fits-all framework that he can adapt to anything that happens in-game.This is really well written article, but I have to disagree with almost everything you wrote about Flash. Well, not with almost everything, but with substantial part of it. Flash actually improvise a lot in his game, more than majority of other progamers I would say. He doesn't try to account for every possibility beforehand, he let his game sense and adaptability to cope with every situation when it arises. I've read probably every Flash interview, and something along the lines "situation X arised so I followed my instinct and luckily everything went well" isn't uncommon. His builds are more like an outline, basic stuff to do, and he than let his incredible adaptability to expand on them. There is a reason no other Terran was able to copy Flash, they simply lack the game sense and adaptability. There is a reason no other progamer has so many seemingly impossible comebacks, they simply fall apart when their game plan is compromised (see fantasy). But with Flash, it's different. Even in very disadvategous position, he is able to read the situation and make on the fly decision, which will often allow him to come back. Also (MSL finals spoiler ahead): + Show Spoiler + Look at the game 5 in Flash vs Effort in last OSL finals. Look at the game 5 in Light vs Jaedong MSL semis. Now look at the game 5 in MSL finals and try to say that Flash is a player with safe approach to the game with straight face. He isn't. He can (and usually do) play safe against lesser opponent knowing his superior skills will win the game for him, but he can also take huge risks if he feels it's for the best. Jaedong to me feels inferior as the adaptablity goes. His true strengh is his extreme mental fortitude. At least that's how I see it. I feel that Flash and Jaedong both have amazing game sense, but in different ways. I think of Flash's game sense as strategic: he almost always makes a good decision about what to do to stay in control of the game--e.g. when to move out, when to turtle up, etc. When Flash is playing well, it seems like there is no way to wrest control from him. He plays a game start to finish--his game sense is an extension of his planning in general. I think of Jaedong's game sense as tactical: no matter what has come before, or what his plan has been, if he spots an opportunity--say, to engage in battle, or for a zergling runby, or to quickly mass units and attack--he is capable of instantly spotting it and decisively going for it. So that's what I meant about Jaedong as the flexible one. Second point is that: to some extent, I do think that what I wrote is becoming outdated: Flash used to use the same basic builds all through an event no matter what (at least since becoming successful), but in the last two MSL finals, Flash changed up his builds quite a bit. I would still say that Flash has a tendency to play safely--I don't remember the last time I saw him go all-in--but I do think that at least in finals he is becoming less predictable than he used to be. On August 29 2010 01:47 mutantmagnet wrote: Very nice write up but I don't agree with the Terran stereotype. That said I'm curious what the OP thinks the protoss stereotype is even if no one is currently filling it. On August 28 2010 15:45 Crissaegrim wrote: I don't know.... It's an interesting question. I suppose that (as Musoeun hinted in his post) you could make a case for the defining aspect being the "heroic"--they have more potential "hero units" than any other race (reavers, carriers, both shades of templar), and that would also fit with the lore of the "noble Protoss". Still, I'm not sure I see that especially reflected in the way Protoss is played, although DTs can turn the tide of any game, and when A very good write up. Its a shame that the very essence and traits of these legendary races failed to make it into sc2. Quite curious to see whats your take on the somewhat despised ugly-stepbrother sorta way 3rd race.  Bisu was dominant, his DTs were particularly heroic.On a different note, I like to think of Protoss as potentially the trickiest race--they have more spells, spellcasters, and cloaked units than any other, not to mention greater potential for proxies--but with the exception perhaps of Kal, I don't see trickiness being a hallmark of Protoss as it is played on the highest level today. (Horang2, sadly, is not on the highest level--and as he has gotten better, his game has gotten more standard.) Back when Nal_rA carried the banner for Protoss maybe we could have gone with this.Then there's my theory that the best way to see the essence of a race is to look at the mirror match-up.... If you go with that, I think I would say that the essence of Protoss is to be found in the humble observer: Protoss is the race that sees all and stays one step ahead. Stork probably has the best observer usage of modern Protosses, but--:shrug:. I'm only theorizing. Probably we'll have to wait until a real "king of the Protoss" emerges to answer the question.On August 29 2010 16:01 waffling1 wrote: Interesting take. I had to look up what that refers to (J = judgment, thinking; P = perception, intuiting) but I agree: that does sum up what I see as their two approaches in a nutshell.for anyone familiar with meyers briggs personality theory, this probably points to flash being a J while jaedong being a P most gamers are INT, so probalby flash as INTJ and jaedong as INTP. just a guess. On August 29 2010 17:23 nihoh wrote: Well, I may have been wrong in my choice there, but believe it or not I did do some research beforehand. From Wikipedia's entry on Yin and Yang: Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, or tranquil; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity and nighttime.Flash is YANG. Jaedong is YIN. Know your chinese. Yang is light - solid, concrete, yin is shadow - mercurial, shifting. Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, or aggressive; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime. The terms that I've bolded are the ones that reminded me of Flash and Jaedong, respectively. It's a tough decision, isn't it? | ||
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
On August 29 2010 08:03 Raz0r wrote: WHEN WILL PROTOSS DOMINATE AGAIN? When they use Protoss favored maps. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On August 31 2010 07:34 qrs wrote: I feel that Flash and Jaedong both have amazing game sense, but in different ways. I think of Flash's game sense as strategic: he almost always makes a good decision about what to do to stay in control of the game--e.g. when to move out, when to turtle up, etc. When Flash is playing well, it seems like there is no way to wrest control from him. He plays a game start to finish--his game sense is an extension of his planning in general. I think of Jaedong's game sense as tactical: no matter what has come before, or what his plan has been, if he spots an opportunity--say, to engage in battle, or for a zergling runby, or to quickly mass units and attack--he is capable of instantly spotting it and decisively going for it. So that's what I meant about Jaedong as the flexible one. yup! i 100% agree  this is reflected in games- sadly (for me atleast cause im a jd fan  ) flash's game sense has more weight in long term macro games: which is where flash excels as he can always somehow hold off/survive early game and push the game into a later stage where he can simply out macro/out strategize/out play most gamers on any given day. | ||
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29 fps
United States5725 Posts
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Prototype
Sweden56 Posts
Thanks for the feedback: I always want to hear criticism. For your first point: I do see what you mean about my writing sounding "presumptuous and generally conceited"; I've read pieces where I had exactly the same reaction, but this is something that makes me a little sad in general, because I'm not sure it's wholly in the writer's control whether or not the reader will view him as pretentious. For what it's worth, I was trying to use the best words I could find to say what I wanted, not to impress people with my vocabulary. Your second point, that "to say Flash alone epitomizes Terran play is to lessen the beauty and diversity of Starcraft" is well taken. Maybe I should have given that more thought. Still, I would argue that in a certain way Flash's style epitomizes tendencies that are built into the Terran race, to an extent that Boxer's, for instance did not. One point that I didn't have time to work into the article was: if you want to know what the essence of a race is, look at its mirror match-up. TvT is the most strategic match-up: people have compared it to chess. It's very much about long-term strategy: choosing the right strongholds at the right times. ZvZ on the other hand, is nearly all short-term tactics and battle micro. Thank you for the level headed response. It seems my self-ironizing did not go unappreciated (and if it did, I apologize if I came off as excessively haughty). I see your point as to your reasoning, and I don't deny its validity. It is cogent to say Terran is suited to a more methodical playstyle than the other races, as per popular opinion and personal interpretation/analysis. My point was, rather, that this is not all there is to Terran play. Flash does have a tendency (outside of bo3/5's) of developing strategies based around variations of standard play - a combination of game sense and pure mechanical skill is what makes him so lethal. However, I personally admire the masters of what I consider 'disruptive play' - Fantasy, Leta, Baby and Midas being the greatest proponents of such a playstyle. I remember Leta's early Vulture drops vs Protoss and Midas' Wraith-Vulture-Mines-Dropship (into double expand) opening in TvT are two of my favorite examples of non-standard finesse-based tactics and deep strategical thinking, respectively. And, of course, Fantasy has brought tech-switching on a Zerg level to the Terran side of TvZ, and that's something every Terran player (and Brood War fan*) has benefited immensely by, if nothing else because of the wealth of strategic options that have opened up as a result of this - dare I say - paradigm shift. (?) *That isn't consumed with irrational hate for creative play/mech. The fact that two such distinct traditions can co-exist is proof that there is more to Terran than what can simply be derived from Oov's principles of macro, but I think it is also evident, we can agree, that such play is standard for a reason. | ||
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
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Armathai
1023 Posts
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Ocular
Canada141 Posts
Now if only my lovable toss would make it to the finals this would be perfect. | ||
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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Three
Japan278 Posts
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