Jaedong: "I want to create the finals where I won't embarrass myself." "I advanced all the way just to repay my fans' support."
- This is your third consecutive MSL finals. ▲ I have tried very hard to forget about the past two finals' results. I started this MSL with the mindset that I have to do my best for every single match, and that is how I got this far, thus I am rather satisfied. And because it was a tough climb up, it is all the more reason why I want to win this season.
- How was your game today? ▲ I expected a tough series today. I played while relying on my experience, but being adaptable was very difficult as Light has a very strong foundation and mechanics. Not only that, he prepared several builds, thus it was very difficult for me to play. I prepared for today, but it was so difficult that I had to rely on my experience instead of any prepared builds so that I could adapt quickly. I think trusting my experience paid off in the end.
- At the end of the third set, you were on the verge of losing the series. ▲ I made many errors in the 2nd and 3rd games, and I think Light's late game play was fantastic. At the end of the third set, I did a lot of self-review of the game, and I thankfully managed to win in the end today because of luck. However, I think Flash is a much more formidable opponent, and thus, I should prepare harder than ever before.
- You can finally settle the score between you and Flash's finals score of 1:1. ▲ I mentioned this in the past, but I think I will face Flash a lot more often. Right now, it may be 1:1, but I believe that will continue to increase in the future. I lost in the previous finals so I strongly believe that I should win this MSL so as to show that I am not someone weak enough to be crushed by Flash's current performance. Also, I feel that if Flash wins this MSL once again, he will completely dominate everything. That is how dominating Flash is at the moment.
- How did you prepare for the route to the Finals? ▲ I practiced with my team players as well as personal practice partners such as Bee and Sexy, and it is because of their help that I managed to take down strong Terran players and advance this far. I am playing a Terran once again in the finals (laughs), and because of me, they are suffering quite a bit, but I promise to treat them to good food every day next week, so I hope they will continue helping me.
- You have to head straight to WCG. ▲ The WCG allows us to qualify regardless of position, thus even if I lose today, I just have to win in the third/fourth placing. Thus, I just want to enjoy myself today.
- Your schedule is extremely packed next week. However, because of someone else who has an equally packed schedule, I am certain you will get fired up, will you not? Also, are there any issues with maintaining your health and stamina? ▲ It really helps to have someone like him (laughs). Seeing Flash calms me down and motivates me to do better. Even with my busy schedule, I exercise regularly, which I think helps me maintain my stamina. I'm also eating a lot of health food. My fans also prepare a lot of stuff for me, and I want to thank them repeatedly.
- Anything you want to say? ▲ This season was extremely tough, but I managed to advance into the finals. My fans supported me and cheered me on for every match, thus with my desire to repay their support, I played to my fullest. To be honest, while preparing for today's games, I was so exhausted from practice that there were times I almost lost confidence in myself. But every time, I would read and listen to my fans' supports and gain strength to move on from them. I want to practice hard with the remaining time I have so as to create an awesome finals which I will not be disappointed about.
This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of EffOrt and ZerO.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Also, I feel that if Flash wins this MSL once again, he will completely dominate everything. That is how dominating Flash is at the moment.
Jaedong Connor.
I'm excited for another Flash vs. Jaedong finals, but they seem to rarely meet expectations. It usually turns out to be more of an unseen battle of wills than a battle of Starcraft:
-The games in Lee Ssang Rok seem to be relatively short. ▲I think so too. Whenever we meet, the spiritual battle at the beginning of the game is very strong. Since the person who wins the spiritual battle pushes out strongly from the beginning, the games tend to be very short.
At any rate, thanks for the quick interview translations, kona.
JD does indeed seem a little more scared of Flash than usual. He really shouldn't be though, I think it's a 50:50 situation. JD and Flash will dominate the BW scene until they retire. ^__^
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of EffOrt and ZerO.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of EffOrt and ZerO.
He should ask help from the MBC people!
Considering that he eliminated both Sea and Light...not sure how willing they're going to be. Maybe he should ask Fantasy for help so he can avenge Fantasy's loss.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of EffOrt and ZerO.
He should ask help from the MBC people!
Considering that he eliminated both Sea and Light...not sure how willing they're going to be. Maybe he should ask Fantasy for help so he can avenge Fantasy's loss.
Well, doesn't it feel better if you lost to the winner of the tournament? If Jaedong beats Flash then its like "oh sure I lost to JD but not even Flash could beat him".
Jaedong should just rape Flash with 2 hatch muta on PR. Despite what people say about Flash's defense, I'm still not fully convinced that he can consistently deal with 2 hatch muta builds from a strong zerg player. Almost every single time that Jaedong has gone 2 hatch muta against Flash, he's won. All these fancy late-game oriented strategies are looking less effective each day thanks to a shitty map pool and the lategame mech imba.
Maybe it's my Terran paranoia, but I always give Jaedong an edge against Flash. Zerg has all the initiative early in the game, and it's so easy to lose the game from a slip in scouting, timing, micro, or unit comp (as Light found out). Zerg just needs to know when to build sunkens. As a Flash fan I hope he turns the tables and plays extra aggressive early game to keep Jaedong on the defensive where he's not as dangerous.
On August 22 2010 02:23 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jaedong should just rape Flash with 2 hatch muta on PR. Despite what people say about Flash's defense, I'm still not fully convinced that he can consistently deal with 2 hatch muta builds from a strong zerg player. Almost every single time that Jaedong has gone 2 hatch muta against Flash, he's won. All these fancy late-game oriented strategies are looking less effective each day thanks to a shitty map pool and the lategame mech imba.
I agree. Lately, it seems that Zergs never win in a late game scenario unless they get a big advantage early game.
It makes me sad that Jaedong won 3 games with early all-ins, but really, it seems like there's nothing else Zergs can do anymore.
Honestly, Light could have easily won set 5 given that he completely scouted Jaedong's build and his all-in move, but decided that he was just going to completely ignore it rather than just cut SCVs to get a bunker and an E-bay up earlier. The match would have easily been his.
"▲ I made many errors in the 2nd and 3rd games, and I think Light's late game play was fantastic. At the end of the third set, I did a lot of self-review of the game"
Jaedong in the 3rd game tried a lot of times to shut down the extra expansions but could only bring the CCs down to red. Good thinking to use a Queen in the next game to finish off CCs. I think if he would have won game 3 if he used them.
On August 22 2010 01:55 Murderotica wrote: Poor Light. Light is so fucking good at TvZ, he was so close.
GL JD.
He just needs to work on his TvZ openings (and not skimp on bunkers/repairing scvs) and he will win next time. JD was unable to beat him in a macro game, I hope Light just learns from his early-game mistakes.
I think Jaedong will prepare aggressive builds like in set 1 and 5, where he can control the flow of the game. Unfortunately while these games are intense, they are often one sided, and short. Flash knows if he can take it to the late game, he stands a good chance of winning.
Man >.< Macro Terran so strong, I think JD's best bet is just to be sick aggressive from the get go >.< God Light showed just how insane T is in the late game, and it makes me worry about this finals D: Come on JD find better practice partners! XD
Here i hope Jaedong uses something a little bit more innovative , like the queens against light to kill CC's faster . He should also abuse the fuck out of defilers like Action did against Flash and not build ultras unless for perfectly precise drops on tanks .
On August 22 2010 05:12 Gescom wrote: Keep in mind that Effort was able to beat Flash using early game ling strategies as well. (vs 14cc)
Yeah, but Flash showed he learned from that just one week later against JD where he scouted before putting down the 14cc. I can't see Flash succumbing to early ling attacks like that again. Aggressive 2 hatch muta play possibly but that's pretty risky against Flash.
The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
I wasn't talking about who spent more time preparing. I was basing that on the games themselves. Flash read Jaedong's playstyle perfectly and exploited the fuck out of it. He knew JD was going for a strong late game ZvT so he just played really greedy at the beginning and then went for a timing attack before JD's lategame army came into play.
For example, what did game 1 prove really? Just that Flash had a better game plan, that's all. Jaedong had no units and was completely caught off guard.
That series wasn't a test of skill, all it proved was that one player had much better strategies.
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Well Flash predicted that Jaedong won't go for a 9 pool so he just double cc'ed all matches
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Well Flash predicted that Jaedong won't go for a 9 pool so he just double cc'ed all matches
Ummm... predicted? Only game 1 was a blind 14cc (on Triathlon, which is relatively safe). Game 2 and 3 were 14cc after scout. If JD hadn't opened with a 12 hatch, Flash wouldn't have responded with 14ccs.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
On August 22 2010 02:23 Holgerius wrote: I just hope that Flash does not underestimate JD, because JD sure as hell isn't going to underestimate Flash. A loss in WCG would be great.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
Also, Flash vs Stork is what happens when a player gets a reputation for 12 nexus
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
Also, Flash vs Stork is what happens when a player gets a reputation for 12 nexus
HAHAHAHA
Flash blind fanboys are so annoying about that power outage...was so clearly over at that point *sigh*
On August 22 2010 05:20 raga4ka wrote: Here i hope Jaedong uses something a little bit more innovative , like the queens against light to kill CC's faster . He should also abuse the fuck out of defilers like Action did against Flash and not build ultras unless for perfectly precise drops on tanks .
in my opinion queen is seriously under-used, if progamers just pumped a single queen and did not do any research its 100 mins and 100 gas and you can parasite to keep track of MnM ball movement
also, infesting a CC already made your queen more than worth the money
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I feel scared for the Legend Killer because Flash just might become even bigger than a legend... he might become a god. Still, I believe in Jaedong. :D
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
On August 22 2010 01:36 SubtleArt wrote: Lol Jaedong practiced with Bee and Sexy while Flash practiced with Effort and Zero. No wonder Jaedong got 3-0ed last finals
Mad respect to JD for actually winning that one, I was expecting an easy win for Light. Indeed his experience helped him a lot. After Bisu back in 2007, finally we have 2 guys that made it into 3 MSL finals in a row and while I think Flash has a lot left in the tank, imo this is like the last hurrah for Jaedong
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
Oh Jaedong, you have a weakness against terrans in the grandfinals of the MSL on questionable maps. Even if the map pool was better I'd give a strong advantage to flash. I expect flash to win this 3-1.
Thanks Kona for translations, its been a long time : ) Imo, set 2 of the series vs Light was the best. Battlecruisers and his Bio control was so Flash-esk (coming from a jd fanboy)
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
If it was more to JD's favor than to being even (JD more than 75% favored) the call was correct, didn't even need to be completely over. That's been talked over like half a year ago, though.
About these finals, well Flash will probably grind them out to victory. It's pretty funny how people complain about SC2 TvZ the whole time, whereas in SCBW the balance is actually even worse at the moment but people just don't mind because they've decided that the game has perfect balance.
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
man... i really hope we get some epic games like their first MSL finals encounter. Those first three games were pretty epic, and game 3 was so damn exciting even with the space heater incident
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
I believe Movie had prepared for a fast dark templar drop, but messed up his build orders half way throught the game, and had to re-adjust his build to make up for the delayed timing. The combination of reavers and dark templars did threaten Flash, but Movie had invested so much on the drop that Flash had to be crippled severely for the move to have paid off. Hardly a shining example of how well prepared Movie was for the series to be honest.
What Flash has achieved this season is so out of this world, I don't see the point of obsessing over the minimal likelihood that Flash would have overcame the deficit he had against Jaedong in that infamous game on Odd-Eye, and overcome what was a clear build order loss on Fighting Spirit afterwards. Or trying to prove that somehow that what Flash faced against Movie was some of the most mind tilting protoss plays around.
Flash has surpasses Jaedong in terms of straight up play for quite some time now. Jaedong had to rely on his wits, to overcome Flash on what many zergs progamers said to be an impossible map pool for a zerg player. The ruling in the third game just sealed the lid on what was in many people's eyes, a done deal. Flash returned the favour to stomp Jaedong to the ground last time.
This time round, the map pool is still favourable for the terran race, and Jaedong was forced to reveal a lot of his non-straight up plays against Sea and Light, since he didn't have the capacity to roll them over on sheer power alone. This is Flash's series to lose. To be honest, I'd like to see Flash play Jaedong on some zerg favoured map pool, something that never happened in any of their BO5s. It's no fun watching Jaedong trying to out-guess Flash in these map pools.
I practiced with my team players as well as personal practice partners such as (T)Bee and (T)Sexy, and it is because of their help that I managed to take down strong Terran players and advance this far. I am playing a Terran once again in the finals (laughs), and because of me, they are suffering quite a bit, but I promise to treat them to good food every day next week, so I hope they will continue helping me.
Anyone else think it would be extremely depressing if your sole role as a practice partner was to get repeatedly demolished by Jaedong?
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
I believe Movie had prepared for a fast dark templar drop, but messed up his build orders half way throught the game, and had to re-adjust his build to make up for the delayed timing. The combination of reavers and dark templars did threaten Flash, but Movie had invested so much on the drop that Flash had to be crippled severely for the move to have paid off. Hardly a shining example of how well prepared Movie was for the series to be honest.
What Flash has achieved this season is so out of this world, I don't see the point of obsessing over the minimal likelihood that Flash would have overcame the deficit he had against Jaedong in that infamous game on Odd-Eye, and overcome what was a clear build order loss on Fighting Spirit afterwards. Or trying to prove that somehow that what Flash faced against Movie was some of the most mind tilting protoss plays around.
Flash has surpasses Jaedong in terms of straight up play for quite some time now. Jaedong had to rely on his wits, to overcome Flash on what many zergs progamers said to be an impossible map pool for a zerg player. The ruling in the third game just sealed the lid on what was in many people's eyes, a done deal. Flash returned the favour to stomp Jaedong to the ground last time.
This time round, the map pool is still favourable for the terran race, and Jaedong was forced to reveal a lot of his non-straight up plays against Sea and Light, since he didn't have the capacity to roll them over on sheer power alone. This is Flash's series to lose. To be honest, I'd like to see Flash play Jaedong on some zerg favoured map pool, something that never happened in any of their BO5s. It's no fun watching Jaedong trying to out-guess Flash in these map pools.
When was the last time they even played a proper standard game? It was the winner's league game on match point. As I recall, that game was pretty evenly balanced until Jaedong's big fuckup with forgetting consume. While it might be true that Flash has a higher chance of winning in a standard macro game, I haven't seen any strong evidence to support this claim. We can only judge based on their general performance against other players.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
If it was more to JD's favor than to being even (JD more than 75% favored) the call was correct, didn't even need to be completely over. That's been talked over like half a year ago, though.
About these finals, well Flash will probably grind them out to victory. It's pretty funny how people complain about SC2 TvZ the whole time, whereas in SCBW the balance is actually even worse at the moment but people just don't mind because they've decided that the game has perfect balance.
The balance historically is 53%, so no its not as awful as TvZ in Sc2. On top of that Terran in general is strong right now, they're using a new strategy that Zergs are confused by, and the map pool is bad. Don't base your entire judgment of an 11 year old game off a knee jerk reaction u got watching it for barely a few weeks. In 2008 - 2009, which we ccalled swarm season, Zerg was by far the most dominant race, and we ended up getting a plethora of ZvZ finals and semifinals, many with only above average players riding the strength of their race (Calm vs Kwanro finals any1??)
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
I'd like to see the iccup rank of all the blind fanbois that say Flash was still in that game.
You'd see a bunch of D ranked fools.
No matter how much facts and evidence presented, all they have is:
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
I believe Movie had prepared for a fast dark templar drop, but messed up his build orders half way throught the game, and had to re-adjust his build to make up for the delayed timing. The combination of reavers and dark templars did threaten Flash, but Movie had invested so much on the drop that Flash had to be crippled severely for the move to have paid off. Hardly a shining example of how well prepared Movie was for the series to be honest.
What Flash has achieved this season is so out of this world, I don't see the point of obsessing over the minimal likelihood that Flash would have overcame the deficit he had against Jaedong in that infamous game on Odd-Eye, and overcome what was a clear build order loss on Fighting Spirit afterwards. Or trying to prove that somehow that what Flash faced against Movie was some of the most mind tilting protoss plays around.
Flash has surpasses Jaedong in terms of straight up play for quite some time now. Jaedong had to rely on his wits, to overcome Flash on what many zergs progamers said to be an impossible map pool for a zerg player. The ruling in the third game just sealed the lid on what was in many people's eyes, a done deal. Flash returned the favour to stomp Jaedong to the ground last time.
This time round, the map pool is still favourable for the terran race, and Jaedong was forced to reveal a lot of his non-straight up plays against Sea and Light, since he didn't have the capacity to roll them over on sheer power alone. This is Flash's series to lose. To be honest, I'd like to see Flash play Jaedong on some zerg favoured map pool, something that never happened in any of their BO5s. It's no fun watching Jaedong trying to out-guess Flash in these map pools.
When was the last time they even played a proper standard game? It was the winner's league game on match point. As I recall, that game was pretty evenly balanced until Jaedong's big fuckup with forgetting consume. While it might be true that Flash has a higher chance of winning in a standard macro game, I haven't seen any strong evidence to support this claim. We can only judge based on their general performance against other players.
I was speaking in relative terms. For the longest time, I was certain that Jaedong was simply the stronger player regardless of their results. Flash himself said that he had a mindblock against Jaedong after being manhandled (in terms of pure gameplay) in the round of eight of GomTV MSL S4. This is no longer the case. Flash no longer plays afraid against Jaedong. He knows he's the stronger of the two currently. Of course, being stronger does not always lead to victory, but it's just something I have noticed in their games recently. I have a feeling that the map pool exacerbates the situation even further.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote: [quote] I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
Rofl, so lets compare that game to the Set1 he played against Fantasy. If the power outage happened at the point where Fantasy had 5-6 bases with Flash @ 3 and has just lost 27 scv + got his main army eaten by Fantasy, you don't think the "people who make their living officiating" would have called it in favor of Fantasy? We can't say the decision was fair/unfair, all we can say is that it SUCKED. It was unfair towards both players had the game been called either way and completely the MSL's fault for not making thing good. That entire series is marred and I think therefore bad evidence towards any argument.
Game 3 was over but the real problem was that the Power Outage essentially killed game 4. You can blame Flash for not being mentally strong enough (though I think this is BS because that was just such an absurd situation that it bordered on the surreal) but of course it would have been better to see Flash lose game 3 naturally and then try to fight back.
On August 22 2010 07:10 JohannesH wrote: [quote] If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
Rofl, so lets compare that game to the Set1 he played against Fantasy. If the power outage happened at the point where Fantasy had 5-6 bases with Flash @ 3 and has just lost 27 scv + got his main army eaten by Fantasy, you don't think the "people who make their living officiating" would have called it in favor of Fantasy? We can't say the decision was fair/unfair, all we can say is that it SUCKED. It was unfair towards both players had the game been called either way and completely the MSL's fault for not making thing good. That entire series is marred and I think therefore bad evidence towards any argument.
Plus his comeback against Leta the day afterward, plus Fantasy's comeback against Zero on Fighting Spirit a couple days before it when he destroyed a four-base (five?) zerg with basically one dropship, 12 marines, and 5 medics.
Unbelievable comebacks can and do happen. Maybe it would've taken an unbelievable dumb mistake from JD for it to happen, but that is still a possibility. Flash said he was about half done with a command center in addition to already having taken his mineral only. Plus, Jaedong had a ton of bases, but not that much drone saturation, and few units on the map.
Jaedong would probably have won, but it was still bullshit and forever tainted that final.
On August 22 2010 07:10 JohannesH wrote: [quote] If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
Rofl, so lets compare that game to the Set1 he played against Fantasy. If the power outage happened at the point where Fantasy had 5-6 bases with Flash @ 3 and has just lost 27 scv + got his main army eaten by Fantasy, you don't think the "people who make their living officiating" would have called it in favor of Fantasy? We can't say the decision was fair/unfair, all we can say is that it SUCKED. It was unfair towards both players had the game been called either way and completely the MSL's fault for not making thing good. That entire series is marred and I think therefore bad evidence towards any argument.
you've got to be kidding me... TvT and TvZ are 2 entirely different match-ups. The "state" of the game in those 2 scenarios were completely different. In that situation, it would've still taken a crapload of time for Fantasy to ride that advantage into a victory. In the power outage game, Jaedong was literally a minute or 2 from winning.
There is a reason why the only people who think Flash would've won have Rolster tags, while everyone affiliated with any non-oz/kt team + progamers + kespa refs think differently.
On August 22 2010 07:32 DarkMatter_ wrote: [quote] Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
Rofl, so lets compare that game to the Set1 he played against Fantasy. If the power outage happened at the point where Fantasy had 5-6 bases with Flash @ 3 and has just lost 27 scv + got his main army eaten by Fantasy, you don't think the "people who make their living officiating" would have called it in favor of Fantasy? We can't say the decision was fair/unfair, all we can say is that it SUCKED. It was unfair towards both players had the game been called either way and completely the MSL's fault for not making thing good. That entire series is marred and I think therefore bad evidence towards any argument.
you've got to be kidding me... TvT and TvZ are 2 entirely different match-ups. The "state" of the game in those 2 scenarios were completely different. In that situation, it would've still taken a crapload of time for Fantasy to ride that advantage into a victory. In the power outage game, Jaedong was literally a minute or 2 from winning.
There is a reason why the only people who think Flash would've won have Rolster tags, while everyone affiliated with any non-oz/kt team + progamers + kespa refs think differently.
uh... check my tag, haven't changed it in a couple years now... And how is the scenarios completely different? Did you WATCH set1 of fantasy vs flash. The game was almost literally over. Fantasy couldve almost A-moved into Flash's base n won. TvT is a matchup where sudden victories happen all the time due to the fire-power of tanks and the mobility of DS. If anything, TvT would end quicker than zvt because JD would have to swarm push his way across the map. And the argument isn't "Flash WOULD've won", it's he COULD have, just like JD COULD have lost. Now we'll never know.
On August 22 2010 07:59 Creationism wrote: [quote] Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
Rofl, so lets compare that game to the Set1 he played against Fantasy. If the power outage happened at the point where Fantasy had 5-6 bases with Flash @ 3 and has just lost 27 scv + got his main army eaten by Fantasy, you don't think the "people who make their living officiating" would have called it in favor of Fantasy? We can't say the decision was fair/unfair, all we can say is that it SUCKED. It was unfair towards both players had the game been called either way and completely the MSL's fault for not making thing good. That entire series is marred and I think therefore bad evidence towards any argument.
you've got to be kidding me... TvT and TvZ are 2 entirely different match-ups. The "state" of the game in those 2 scenarios were completely different. In that situation, it would've still taken a crapload of time for Fantasy to ride that advantage into a victory. In the power outage game, Jaedong was literally a minute or 2 from winning.
There is a reason why the only people who think Flash would've won have Rolster tags, while everyone affiliated with any non-oz/kt team + progamers + kespa refs think differently.
uh... check my tag, haven't changed it in a couple years now... And how is the scenarios completely different? Did you WATCH set1 of fantasy vs flash. The game was almost literally over. Fantasy couldve almost A-moved into Flash's base n won. TvT is a matchup where sudden victories happen all the time due to the fire-power of tanks and the mobility of DS. If anything, TvT would end quicker than zvt because JD would have to swarm push his way across the map. And the argument isn't "Flash WOULD've won", it's he COULD have, just like JD COULD have lost. Now we'll never know.
No, flash still had a chance to win vs Fantasy and the game almost surely would have been re done. He still had a good army count and the chances of securing more bases, which is really what counts.
Flash vs Jaedong: Flash had no tanks (and the factory was floating, so none were coming), only 3 vessels, and the only base he was going to be mining from when the 3 patches in his natural died out was a half depleted mineral only. Jaedong on the other hand had 4 gas bases, only 1 of which was mined out, all were secured, and one was a double gas which puts him on 5 gas, probably 3 geysers still left, vs a terran with a mineral only and only a handful of marines. Massive advantage jaedong.
And the argument isn't "Flash WOULD've won", it's he COULD have, just like JD COULD have lost.
You're just being difficult. It was a crappy situation no matter what the choice, but in the end Jaedong's chance of winning exceeded Flash's to the point where re doing would have completely robbed Jaedong.
Ah well, I guess you're really pro cause you're obviously more qualified to make decisions than kespa refs, so who am I to talk to you.
On August 22 2010 01:36 SubtleArt wrote: Lol Jaedong practiced with Bee and Sexy while Flash practiced with EffOrt and ZerO. No wonder Jaedong got 3-0ed Last finals
On August 22 2010 01:36 SubtleArt wrote: Lol Jaedong practiced with Bee and Sexy while Flash practiced with EffOrt and ZerO. No wonder Jaedong got 3-0ed Last finals
On August 22 2010 12:56 darktreb wrote: Game 3 was over but the real problem was that the Power Outage essentially killed game 4. You can blame Flash for not being mentally strong enough (though I think this is BS because that was just such an absurd situation that it bordered on the surreal) but of course it would have been better to see Flash lose game 3 naturally and then try to fight back.
I'm not going to search for the interview, but you can if you want. I just wanted you to know that this is incorrect. Flash said in his interview that he lost game 4 fair and square. He wasn't upset about that at all. He was upset about game 3, because he believed he could have won that game (and therefore the series wouldn't have ended on game 4).
Game 3 appeared to be very close if you were paying attention to the struggle over the northern approach/attack path to the southwest double gas expansion. But Flash's situation was much more dire when you consider the economic situation map-wide. As one person put it, "Flash was all-in off two bases for a very long time". That means he was almost out of money, which we could see on the map. Despite the fact that he was pleased with himself for building another CC, having money tied up in a partially completed command center wasn't going to protect him from the counter-attack that would have come as soon as his attack sputtered out.
edit: I wanted to add that even though I'm a JD fan, I watch most all of Flash's games, because he's really really good. I respect them both a lot. JD and Flash would be nothing exciting if they didn't have each other as rivals. Luckily for us, they do. Woohoo!
On August 23 2010 02:28 [Azn]Nada wrote: you dumbasses, jaedong isnt practicing with people like Bee and Sexy. He's actually sending a message: JAEDONG BE SEXYYYYYYY
On August 22 2010 07:59 Creationism wrote: [quote] Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
Rofl, so lets compare that game to the Set1 he played against Fantasy. If the power outage happened at the point where Fantasy had 5-6 bases with Flash @ 3 and has just lost 27 scv + got his main army eaten by Fantasy, you don't think the "people who make their living officiating" would have called it in favor of Fantasy? We can't say the decision was fair/unfair, all we can say is that it SUCKED. It was unfair towards both players had the game been called either way and completely the MSL's fault for not making thing good. That entire series is marred and I think therefore bad evidence towards any argument.
you've got to be kidding me... TvT and TvZ are 2 entirely different match-ups. The "state" of the game in those 2 scenarios were completely different. In that situation, it would've still taken a crapload of time for Fantasy to ride that advantage into a victory. In the power outage game, Jaedong was literally a minute or 2 from winning.
There is a reason why the only people who think Flash would've won have Rolster tags, while everyone affiliated with any non-oz/kt team + progamers + kespa refs think differently.
And the argument isn't "Flash WOULD've won", it's he COULD have, just like JD COULD have lost. Now we'll never know.
What I noticed from the power outage incident was the difference in mental fortitude between the players. Jaedong just stayed in his booth, fine with what ever choice the judges were making - and I'm quite sure most people believe that a re game would have fucked up jaedong much much more than it fucked up flash. I'm also pretty sure that Jaedong would have just thrown the game if it was he who had a more or less impossible situation before the power outage. If he didn't, if the tables were turned I'm afraid I would have stopped being a Jaedong fan. The difference in age is big though between the players, which could mean a lot.
EPT
Jaedong: "I want to create the finals where I won't embarrass myself."![[image loading]](/staff/konadora/Fomos_Pictures/1282373265_1.jpg)
Bee and 
