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5003 Posts
On August 12 2010 03:27 Random() wrote:
I see no problem with Blizzard's position. "But they didn't care for 7 years" is such a bad argument.
It's like you took your neighbour's unique ball while he wasn't looking and used it to play a great spectacular game for 7 years, gathering a lot of fans and making money from broadcasts. Nobody cared that it wasn't your ball.
Then the neighbour comes and says "Hey, that's my ball! If you don't want me to take it away from you you have to pay me something!". And the fans are all over him booing and telling him what a fucked up greedy idiot he is, but they don't want to give up his ball because it's better that any ball ever made and no other ball will make the game so spectacular.
Well, bad luck. You should have asked him if it was OK to play with his ball (and make money off it) long ago.
What if your neighbor was one of the people watching the game? And they even got your players to come to their conventions and represent the game? It's not like the neighbor just ignored it, but he partook in the activities passively.
The entire IP issue comes from KeSPA selling broadcasting rights to OGN/MBC. Without that happening, Blizzard would have never, ever, cared. Yes, KeSPA isn't innocent, but it's not exactly fair for Blizzard to be so possessive to the point that it's hurting the broadcasters and the fans. Blizzard's enemy is KeSPA and they should be playing nice to the broadcasters to win them over, not just make their lives worse through this "business strategy". Blizzard's end goal should be concentrated on the KeSPA executive office, not on anyone else.
One way of doing this was to let MSL/OSL happen without an issue, but create issues with the Proleague until KeSPA gives in. Remember that the MBC/OGN negotiations are going on separately from KeSPA's.
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On August 12 2010 03:24 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 02:34 AyJay wrote:On August 12 2010 01:21 TheAntZ wrote:On August 11 2010 23:39 Milkis wrote:On August 11 2010 19:49 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 18:20 MuffinDude wrote:On August 11 2010 18:18 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 13:08 Scaramanga wrote:On August 11 2010 00:28 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 00:27 zenMaster wrote:
[quote]
Well, Kespa didn't feel like giving Blizzard control over everything they own. Well, Blizzard will control everything they own anyway Ahaha we have a blizzard fanboy, thats terrible Motiva can you please stop posting page long posts that are 10% argument and 90% attacks on starred users Fanboy or not, it's happening. Blizzard will control everything. They will control nothing as when they try to control the progaming scene, it'll die and they have nothing to control, as a result, they will control nothing. As long as people are interested in Sc/sc2 there will be progaming scene. Because there's a progaming scene in every other game people are interested in, right? It doesn't quite work that way  yeah what the fuck, none of the arguments you post ever make sense AyJay. You just furiously keep on acting as if blizzard was god, and sc2 was the physical manifestation of the best blowjob given chill the hell out, just because its a good RTS doesnt mean it will or deserves to replace a game that has a ton more depth and a firm foundation RIGHT NOW. It might be ready at some point to do so, but sc2 as it is now is not a match for BW in terms of entertainment and depth. And dont fall back to the default 'OMG ONLY BEEN FEW DAYS SINCE RELEASE' crap. I'm talking about the present, already acknowledged that sc2 may be ready to replace BW in the future. Right now it isnt. I don't know why people is saying Brood war is better than Starcraft 2. To my eyes it's still same old starcraft with new and diffrent strategies. I think Starcraft2 has a lot of depth and is extremely entertaining (I will even point out that people like husky and hd have 165,000 subscribers - people who are waiting for them to pump out more starcraft2 videos and that is HUGE.) I never said sc2 should replace BW. I think they can happily live together as long as there are people interested in watching both games. I'm posting my opinion and my views no need to get mad over it. People are saying that BW is better than SC2 because BW IS better than SC2. Maybe there isn't a scientific explanation on why this is, but this doesn't make it any less of a fact.
Lol dude that is just your personal opinion.
I find sc2 more entertaining than BW, yet you find SC2 more entertaining than Sc2 and yet theres this guy who finds Modern Warfare 2 kicks everyone's ass. So which game is better?
Their all great and their is no need for discussions.
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On August 12 2010 03:27 Random() wrote:
I see no problem with Blizzard's position. "But they didn't care for 7 years" is such a bad argument.
It's like you took your neighbour's unique ball while he wasn't looking and used it to play a great spectacular game for 7 years, gathering a lot of fans and making money from broadcasts. Nobody cared that it wasn't your ball.
Then the neighbour comes and says "Hey, that's my ball! If you don't want me to take it away from you you have to pay me something!". And the fans are all over him booing and telling him what a fucked up greedy idiot he is, but they don't want to give up his ball because it's better that any ball ever made and no other ball will make the game so spectacular.
Well, bad luck. You should have asked him if it was OK to play with his ball (and make money off it) long ago.
with the big difference that the neighbour (Blizzard) saw Kespa taking the ball.
@above me... well u mb like SCII but there are some people who say its alrdy better then SC:BW for esports. and that is just bullcrap and yeah because the game is only out for 2 3 weeks.
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Croatia9567 Posts
On August 12 2010 03:38 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:24 2Pacalypse- wrote:On August 12 2010 02:34 AyJay wrote:On August 12 2010 01:21 TheAntZ wrote:On August 11 2010 23:39 Milkis wrote:On August 11 2010 19:49 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 18:20 MuffinDude wrote:On August 11 2010 18:18 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 13:08 Scaramanga wrote:On August 11 2010 00:28 AyJay wrote:
[quote]
Well, Blizzard will control everything they own anyway Ahaha we have a blizzard fanboy, thats terrible Motiva can you please stop posting page long posts that are 10% argument and 90% attacks on starred users Fanboy or not, it's happening. Blizzard will control everything. They will control nothing as when they try to control the progaming scene, it'll die and they have nothing to control, as a result, they will control nothing. As long as people are interested in Sc/sc2 there will be progaming scene. Because there's a progaming scene in every other game people are interested in, right? It doesn't quite work that way yeah what the fuck, none of the arguments you post ever make sense AyJay. You just furiously keep on acting as if blizzard was god, and sc2 was the physical manifestation of the best blowjob given chill the hell out, just because its a good RTS doesnt mean it will or deserves to replace a game that has a ton more depth and a firm foundation RIGHT NOW. It might be ready at some point to do so, but sc2 as it is now is not a match for BW in terms of entertainment and depth. And dont fall back to the default 'OMG ONLY BEEN FEW DAYS SINCE RELEASE' crap. I'm talking about the present, already acknowledged that sc2 may be ready to replace BW in the future. Right now it isnt. I don't know why people is saying Brood war is better than Starcraft 2. To my eyes it's still same old starcraft with new and diffrent strategies. I think Starcraft2 has a lot of depth and is extremely entertaining (I will even point out that people like husky and hd have 165,000 subscribers - people who are waiting for them to pump out more starcraft2 videos and that is HUGE.) I never said sc2 should replace BW. I think they can happily live together as long as there are people interested in watching both games. I'm posting my opinion and my views no need to get mad over it. People are saying that BW is better than SC2 because BW IS better than SC2. Maybe there isn't a scientific explanation on why this is, but this doesn't make it any less of a fact. Lol dude that is just your personal opinion. I find sc2 more entertaining than BW, yet you find SC2 more entertaining than Sc2 and yet theres this guy who finds Modern Warfare 2 kicks everyone's ass. So which game is better? Their all great and their is no need for discussions.
I wasn't talking about which game you or I find more entertaining. Or in fact, which game do we LIKE more.
I was simply stating which game is BETTER (mostly in terms of skill requiring to play each), and in that case the winner is clear.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 12 2010 03:35 Milkis wrote:
What if your neighbor was one of the people watching the game? And they even got your players to come to their conventions and represent the game? It's not like the neighbor just ignored it, but he partook in the activities passively.
The entire IP issue comes from KeSPA selling broadcasting rights to OGN/MBC. Without that happening, Blizzard would have never, ever, cared. Yes, KeSPA isn't innocent, but it's not exactly fair for Blizzard to be so possessive to the point that it's hurting the broadcasters and the fans. Blizzard's enemy is KeSPA and they should be playing nice to the broadcasters to win them over, not just make their lives worse through this "business strategy". Blizzard's end goal should be concentrated on the KeSPA executive office, not on anyone else.
One way of doing this was to let MSL/OSL happen without an issue, but create issues with the Proleague until KeSPA gives in. Remember that the MBC/OGN negotiations are going on separately from KeSPA's.
If I got the gist of this whole story right, Blizzard tried to solve this quietly before taking drastic measures. KeSPA blew those negotiations by badmouthing and disrespecting Blizzard and Blizzard had to sign a deal on the broadcasting rights with Gretech. How Gretech, now the official and rightful owner of the broadcasting rights, decides to sublicense those rights is their own business. It does not surprise me at all to see them acting like jerks remembering how KeSPA and the channels butchered the GOM TV tournament.
That said, I agree that fans are the ones who get hurt most in the end, which is very depressing. But all the parties involved are equally guilty, I just don't like people painting Blizzard as the greed incarnate when them protecting their rightful interests is all they do. Maybe myself being a developer makes me more likely to see where they are coming from, I don't know.
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5003 Posts
On August 12 2010 04:08 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:35 Milkis wrote:
What if your neighbor was one of the people watching the game? And they even got your players to come to their conventions and represent the game? It's not like the neighbor just ignored it, but he partook in the activities passively.
The entire IP issue comes from KeSPA selling broadcasting rights to OGN/MBC. Without that happening, Blizzard would have never, ever, cared. Yes, KeSPA isn't innocent, but it's not exactly fair for Blizzard to be so possessive to the point that it's hurting the broadcasters and the fans. Blizzard's enemy is KeSPA and they should be playing nice to the broadcasters to win them over, not just make their lives worse through this "business strategy". Blizzard's end goal should be concentrated on the KeSPA executive office, not on anyone else.
One way of doing this was to let MSL/OSL happen without an issue, but create issues with the Proleague until KeSPA gives in. Remember that the MBC/OGN negotiations are going on separately from KeSPA's. If I got the gist of this whole story right, Blizzard tried to solve this quietly before taking drastic measures. KeSPA blew those negotiations by badmouthing and disrespecting Blizzard and Blizzard had to sign a deal on the broadcasting rights with Gretech. How Gretech, now the official and rightful owner of the broadcasting rights, decides to sublicense those rights is their own business. It does not surprise me at all to see them acting like jerks remembering how KeSPA and the channels butchered the GOM TV tournament. That said, I agree that fans are the ones who get hurt most in the end, which is very depressing. But all the parties involved are equally guilty, I just don't like people painting Blizzard as the greed incarnate when them protecting their rightful interests is all they do. Maybe myself being a developer makes me more likely to see where they are coming from, I don't know.
I don't know enough about KeSPA - Blizzard relationships during that time, so I can't really comment. However, I can also see why KeSPA didn't agree to Blizzard's terms, as I do think Blizzard is being far too possessive. I don't think they understand "eSports" and only care about making sure they're not "wronged" in some way or another (tbh, I don't think they're being wronged but I can see why they'd feel that way).
KeSPA and the channels didn't butcher GomTV, but it was a decision of several of the proteams to simply not participate in the Gom Leagues after KeSPA decided they weren't official matches anymore. Considering Gom Never did too well in Korea, due to production qualities (bad Korean commentators, "disagreeable" tournament formats, etc), I wouldn't be surprised that decision was based on other teams wanting to concentrate on the other leagues since all those games going on IS stressful to the players no matter how you cut it.
Even then, I don't think it's the channels' fault, and I don't see why the channels even have to buy sublicenses, especially at supposedly high prices. MBC Game isn't doing too well overall from what I see from netizens and I'm hoping this won't tip them over the edge. Simply put, I disagree with how Gretech and Blizzard are planning on running the show, and I don't think it's good for the scene in the long run, or even the short run.
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NOOOOooooooo please let this all work out The MSL can't die, or else
+ Show Spoiler +Bisu might never win another game ^^
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 12 2010 04:19 Milkis wrote:
I don't know enough about KeSPA - Blizzard relationships during that time, so I can't really comment. However, I can also see why KeSPA didn't agree to Blizzard's terms, as I do think Blizzard is being far too possessive. I don't think they understand "eSports" and only care about making sure they're not "wronged" in some way or another (tbh, I don't think they're being wronged but I can see why they'd feel that way).
KeSPA and the channels didn't butcher GomTV, but it was a decision of several of the proteams to simply not participate in the Gom Leagues after KeSPA decided they weren't official matches anymore. Considering Gom Never did too well in Korea, due to production qualities (bad Korean commentators, "disagreeable" tournament formats, etc), I wouldn't be surprised that decision was based on other teams wanting to concentrate on the other leagues since all those games going on IS stressful to the players no matter how you cut it.
Even then, I don't think it's the channels' fault, and I don't see why the channels even have to buy sublicenses, especially at supposedly high prices. MBC Game isn't doing too well overall from what I see from netizens and I'm hoping this won't tip them over the edge. Simply put, I disagree with how Gretech and Blizzard are planning on running the show, and I don't think it's good for the scene in the long run, or even the short run.
Well, maybe "butchered" is too strong a word but that sanctioning the matches, then not sanctioning the matches story seemed pretty dirty to me, and I think there was more to it behind the scenes than merely caring about players. GOM was the first company to reach out to non-Korean viewers, and only for that they deserve my respect. Several of my friends were introduced to the Korean Starcraft only thanks to their English casts. They definitely could have fixed their issues with Korean broadcasts eventually if they were allowed to continue.
But I have to agree that with all the promotion Starcraft 2 receives they could have just left BW alone, it is not their primary product anymore.
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On August 12 2010 00:20 MICHELLE wrote:
I seriously just wish that SC2 buzz will evaporate and that there will be no pro gaming scene for it. I just feel that it docent deserve it, at least for now.
I think Blizzard wants part of the eSports dollar in Korea, so even if SC2 fails they will try to get more out of Broodwar than in the past. They probably figure they make large profits from the Broodwar licenses or the high cost kills BW and SC2 can move in.
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On August 12 2010 03:51 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:38 AyJay wrote:On August 12 2010 03:24 2Pacalypse- wrote:On August 12 2010 02:34 AyJay wrote:On August 12 2010 01:21 TheAntZ wrote:On August 11 2010 23:39 Milkis wrote:On August 11 2010 19:49 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 18:20 MuffinDude wrote:On August 11 2010 18:18 AyJay wrote:On August 11 2010 13:08 Scaramanga wrote:
[quote]
Ahaha we have a blizzard fanboy, thats terrible
Motiva can you please stop posting page long posts that are 10% argument and 90% attacks on starred users Fanboy or not, it's happening. Blizzard will control everything. They will control nothing as when they try to control the progaming scene, it'll die and they have nothing to control, as a result, they will control nothing. As long as people are interested in Sc/sc2 there will be progaming scene. Because there's a progaming scene in every other game people are interested in, right? It doesn't quite work that way yeah what the fuck, none of the arguments you post ever make sense AyJay. You just furiously keep on acting as if blizzard was god, and sc2 was the physical manifestation of the best blowjob given chill the hell out, just because its a good RTS doesnt mean it will or deserves to replace a game that has a ton more depth and a firm foundation RIGHT NOW. It might be ready at some point to do so, but sc2 as it is now is not a match for BW in terms of entertainment and depth. And dont fall back to the default 'OMG ONLY BEEN FEW DAYS SINCE RELEASE' crap. I'm talking about the present, already acknowledged that sc2 may be ready to replace BW in the future. Right now it isnt. I don't know why people is saying Brood war is better than Starcraft 2. To my eyes it's still same old starcraft with new and diffrent strategies. I think Starcraft2 has a lot of depth and is extremely entertaining (I will even point out that people like husky and hd have 165,000 subscribers - people who are waiting for them to pump out more starcraft2 videos and that is HUGE.) I never said sc2 should replace BW. I think they can happily live together as long as there are people interested in watching both games. I'm posting my opinion and my views no need to get mad over it. People are saying that BW is better than SC2 because BW IS better than SC2. Maybe there isn't a scientific explanation on why this is, but this doesn't make it any less of a fact. Lol dude that is just your personal opinion. I find sc2 more entertaining than BW, yet you find SC2 more entertaining than Sc2 and yet theres this guy who finds Modern Warfare 2 kicks everyone's ass. So which game is better? Their all great and their is no need for discussions. I wasn't talking about which game you or I find more entertaining. Or in fact, which game do we LIKE more. I was simply stating which game is BETTER (mostly in terms of skill requiring to play each), and in that case the winner is clear.
To you BW is better because it requires more skill, to other guy this game is better because of the new strategies or maybe shinier graphics or maybe it's better because he finds it bearable to play and watch. There are many reasons why this guy says X game is better than Y game. You get my point.
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On August 12 2010 05:21 AyJay wrote:
To you BW is better because it requires more skill, to other guy this game is better because of the new strategies or maybe shinier graphics or maybe it's better because he finds it bearable to play and watch. There are many reasons why this guy says X game is better than Y game. You get my point.
Well AyJay I think many of your posts are in BW section telling how SC2 is a better game, for you is a better game because??, please give me good reasons (about the game) not the ones that you have already stated ( the foreigners are playing it, it has all the tournaments outside korea, TLO who is my hero is busy playing all day long, etc) those which make me think that you have zero RTS playing background.
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On August 12 2010 03:27 Random() wrote:
I see no problem with Blizzard's position. "But they didn't care for 7 years" is such a bad argument.
It's like you took your neighbour's unique ball while he wasn't looking and used it to play a great spectacular game for 7 years, gathering a lot of fans and making money from broadcasts. Nobody cared that it wasn't your ball.
Then the neighbour comes and says "Hey, that's my ball! If you don't want me to take it away from you you have to pay me something!". And the fans are all over him booing and telling him what a fucked up greedy idiot he is, but they don't want to give up his ball because it's better that any ball ever made and no other ball will make the game so spectacular.
Well, bad luck. You should have asked him if it was OK to play with his ball (and make money off it) long ago.
That analogy would work if you took your neighbor's ball and played with it, and for 7 year's he'd brag to the neighborhood about how awesome his ball is and how its great to see you play with it. After 7 years, suddenly your neighbor goes "how dare you play with my ball, give me $$$!".
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 12 2010 07:39 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:27 Random() wrote:
I see no problem with Blizzard's position. "But they didn't care for 7 years" is such a bad argument.
It's like you took your neighbour's unique ball while he wasn't looking and used it to play a great spectacular game for 7 years, gathering a lot of fans and making money from broadcasts. Nobody cared that it wasn't your ball.
Then the neighbour comes and says "Hey, that's my ball! If you don't want me to take it away from you you have to pay me something!". And the fans are all over him booing and telling him what a fucked up greedy idiot he is, but they don't want to give up his ball because it's better that any ball ever made and no other ball will make the game so spectacular.
Well, bad luck. You should have asked him if it was OK to play with his ball (and make money off it) long ago. That analogy would work if you took your neighbor's ball and played with it, and for 7 year's he'd brag to the neighborhood about how awesome his ball is and how its great to see you play with it. After 7 years, suddenly your neighbor goes "how dare you play with my ball, give me $$$!".
True I guess  But then again Blizzard started acting like this when KeSPA tried to sell Blizzard's ball to someone else
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10387 Posts
Hmmm so this is why GOM is able to throw so much money into their SC2 leagues
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Was the right to broadcast explicitly stated in Brood War's terms of contract?
Brood War is kinda sold as a product as well, so the ball analogy will be people bought the replica of the balls, learned ways to play them, and earned money from showing people the innovative ways they play with the balls.
Well, analogies are over-simplifications of the matter at hand and is merely sophistry for moral debate.
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5003 Posts
On August 12 2010 09:50 bearbuddy wrote:
Was the right to broadcast explicitly stated in Brood War's terms of contract?
Brood War is kinda sold as a product as well, so the ball analogy will be people bought the replica of the balls, learned ways to play them, and earned money from showing people the innovative ways they play with the balls.
Well, analogies are over-simplifications of the matter at hand and is merely sophistry for moral debate.
It's supposedly legal in Korea as long as you own a copy of the game.
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On August 12 2010 03:43 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:27 Random() wrote:
I see no problem with Blizzard's position. "But they didn't care for 7 years" is such a bad argument.
It's like you took your neighbour's unique ball while he wasn't looking and used it to play a great spectacular game for 7 years, gathering a lot of fans and making money from broadcasts. Nobody cared that it wasn't your ball.
Then the neighbour comes and says "Hey, that's my ball! If you don't want me to take it away from you you have to pay me something!". And the fans are all over him booing and telling him what a fucked up greedy idiot he is, but they don't want to give up his ball because it's better that any ball ever made and no other ball will make the game so spectacular.
Well, bad luck. You should have asked him if it was OK to play with his ball (and make money off it) long ago. with the big difference that the neighbour (Blizzard) saw Kespa taking the ball. @above me... well u mb like SCII but there are some people who say its alrdy better then SC:BW for esports. and that is just bullcrap and yeah because the game is only out for 2 3 weeks.
Blizzard saw Kespa taking the ball. Blizzard tried to negotiate with Kespa, but after three years, Kespa still think nothing will change if nothing is agreed upon.
Well too late for Kespa, the ball was handed to someone else after three years of haggling.
Even though Blizzard was being nice and tried to work with Kespa, Kespa started to get even more mean near the end when blizz tried to host tournaments but Kespa pulled the ball away once again.
I still don't understand why Kespa is being so greedy with the e-sports scene. It could've been more big with them (thats when all the foreign folks started to recognize the korean SC scene), and they would get more money in the long run, but they were just too afraid they would lose the ball forever I guess.
Well, its finally happened. The ball has been pryed away from Kespa's grasp, and the scene won't be limited to Korea. That sux doesn't it.
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With the contract Gretech signed with OGN did it include Starcraft 2 as well?
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Hi, TLers, Comet from wfbrood.com(China).
I have translated this thread into Chinese and posted on wfbrood.com. I have clearly stated that this was taken from here and I will bring the feedback from China back to here.
Here is the link:http://bbs.wfbrood.com/thread-18661-1-1.html
Thanks!
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I honestly preferred the GSLs (if you wanted to call them that, which a lot of people did, despite not actually being starleagues) over the MSL and OSLs due to the English commentary.
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EPT
