On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote: To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:
Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.
NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.
Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.
I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.
On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote: To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:
Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.
NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.
Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.
I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.
I don't think anyone would argue with you on that. The maps really did help usher in the various eras.
On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote: To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:
Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.
NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.
Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.
I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.
Let's look at some of the popular old maps:
Old LT: (extremely defensible nat at some positions. Third is defendable for Terrans but not as much for other races)
Main- 8 Natural- 8 Third - 6
Legacy of Char- (extremely easy to hold natural and third, wide open main. Layout was used for Fantasy 11 spawn)
Main- 8 Natural- 6 Third- 7
Gaema Gowon (zergs get free 3 base, natural hard to hold for T and P but 3rd comes free once you can)
Main -8 Natural -8 Third -6
Plains To Hill (nat defendable depending on position, island 3rd/4th)
Main -8 Natural -7 Third -7
Jungle Story (island gas expansion. mineral only hard to defend front expansion)
Main - 9 Natural - 6 (island) Third -7
Current Standard
Main - 9 Natural - 7 (sometimes 6 and 8) Third - 6 (sometimes 7 or 5)
Old strategies (predominantly one-base control and harass instead economically optimized ones) would actually be better on modern maps that have the extra main money. Yes there were some weirdo maps like Bifrost and Blaze, but modern maps still have oddballs from time to time (815 stands out). And of course I'm not factoring in the island maps like Dire Straits or Isles of Siren or even the semi islands like Forbidden Zone which are a whole new mess, though island maps stayed until 2004ish after the Paradoxx Protoss OSLs.
But oh wait, didn't Savior, Reach, rA, and Bisu prove that 1 base builds PvZ are trash, even with 9 mineral patch mains, all the way back in 2005-2007? Didn't Savior, iloveoov, and nada make 1 base TvZ obsolete in 2005-2006? Even Boxer Mr 'I will stay on 1 base and float my cc to the natural when it mines out' 14 cc'ed twice against Savior.
Believe what you want lol
On topic grrr was awesome. He figured out how incredible fast carriers were PvT back in 2000 and it took Terrans until oov in 2003-4ish and really Flash in 2008 to figure out how to stop them. It was really a wonder other Protoss never caught on.
In particular grrr@6 vs sven@12 on LT from either wcg 2001 or 2002 was shocking: a 2 base grrr with carrier/goon trashed sven's 4 base tank/goliath. Another memorable one was grrr@3 vs Nada@9 on LT for some ghemtv event.
Worthless bump, please refrain from doing so in the future. Since a decent discussion has started up from it again somehow I'm leaving this open for a moment.
On February 07 2011 07:19 Ack1027 wrote: Ver saves the thread.
I was in korea in 2004 and it was so nice seeing Grrr on shows like Bnet attack and his korean was really good.
Yeah I just watched some videos that was posted earlier in this thread and I got really surprised that he could speak korean so well. Quite stunned me in a good way.
Here's some of the latest footage of Grrr i could find. He was actually at the SC2 launch day in korea coming up to the scene at 4:00 still looking young and boy'ish with his hair. I wonder what his ID is today on the korean servers and if he still plays Terran. And i'm pretty sure he actually can speak fluent korean today as he has lived there for like 5-6 years now or something . He is even playing a friendly match afterwards ! Nice to see.
On topic grrr was awesome. He figured out how incredible fast carriers were PvT back in 2000 and it took Terrans until oov in 2003-4ish and really Flash in 2008 to figure out how to stop them. It was really a wonder other Protoss never caught on.
In particular grrr@6 vs sven@12 on LT from either wcg 2001 or 2002 was shocking: a 2 base grrr with carrier/goon trashed sven's 4 base tank/goliath. Another memorable one was grrr@3 vs Nada@9 on LT for some ghemtv event.
...Stork used them a lot, Katrina was even considered storks map against terran because he'd just use carriers to roflstomp them .....also reach used them in a final against iloveoov...
I feel bad that I never got to watch any of his games back then. I only started playing bw in 2008 so I was a little late to the party. Wish I was around to see some of his games live.
Also has he done anything in sc2? Theres a thread that said he joined OGS but I haven't heard anything about him since.
On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote: To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:
Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.
NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.
Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.
I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.
Old LT: (extremely defensible nat at some positions. Third is defendable for Terrans but not as much for other races)
Main- 8 Natural- 8 Third - 6
Legacy of Char- (extremely easy to hold natural and third, wide open main. Layout was used for Fantasy 11 spawn)
Main- 8 Natural- 6 Third- 7
Gaema Gowon (zergs get free 3 base, natural hard to hold for T and P but 3rd comes free once you can)
Main -8 Natural -8 Third -6
Plains To Hill (nat defendable depending on position, island 3rd/4th)
Main -8 Natural -7 Third -7
Jungle Story (island gas expansion. mineral only hard to defend front expansion)
Main - 9 Natural - 6 (island) Third -7
Current Standard
Main - 9 Natural - 7 (sometimes 6 and 8) Third - 6 (sometimes 7 or 5)
I'm keeping this part here as a reference. Spoilered because of length. The notion that old strategies work differently because of mineral counts doesn't really bear true as you have showed. Nevertheless...
Old strategies (predominantly one-base control and harass instead economically optimized ones) would actually be better on modern maps that have the extra main money.
This is a mistake in thinking made both by you and MiniRoman. The notion is "different resource counts = change of builds" and while there is truth to that notion, it's not the notion in play here. Modern maps tend to have a more easily defended natural. This works both sides of the equation: if you attack aggressively, you will find it harder and your opponent will find it easier.
And secondly...
Yes there were some weirdo maps like Bifrost and Blaze, but modern maps still have oddballs from time to time (815 stands out).
But even a modern "oddball" like 815 or Troy has a well-defined, easily defended natural. By contrast, on Jungle Story you can't reach your "natural" without air and your mineral base is really, really far away from your main. Furthermore, the resources in your main are tankable from the ledge where your "natural" is...
Not to mention that we see a lot of oddball builds used on modern oddball maps anyway, so that shouldn't have too much of an effect on this argument. I would criticize that by contrast, even the "standard" maps of that era would be considered oddball today. For example, Rivalry with its min only nat and its strange path finding/expansion patterns/push mechanics.
And to mention the maps listed, LT, well, it's not hard to get games there. Try going 14cc there. Try using Bisu build. Hell, I'll let you cheat and use one of the "fixed" LT's rather than the original Blizzard version. I think you'll find it pretty tough. Legacy of Char did see a lot of fast expansion type stuff (contrary to popular belief, 14cc and 14 nexus both predate Oov, possibly predate Boxer, though you pretty much never saw them except on certain maps). Gaema Gowon Protoss can't really FE very effectively. Sin Gaema Gowon was already a graveyard for Protoss in ZvP and I can't help but think that it would be worse today with modern timings. TvZ I think you could play it either way. It would be a graveyard for Zerg, just like it was back then. P-to-H the defensibility of your natural depends on your race, and I'd shy against greedy play anticipating pressure. It was a Terran map back then and it would be worse today. Z really has to pressure, no 3 hatch muta for you; no 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra for you. Jungle Story you pretty much have to 1 base.
And of course I'm not factoring in the island maps like Dire Straits or Isles of Siren or even the semi islands like Forbidden Zone which are a whole new mess, though island maps stayed until 2004ish after the Paradoxx Protoss OSLs.
But oh wait, didn't Savior, Reach, rA, and Bisu prove that 1 base builds PvZ are trash, even with 9 mineral patch mains, all the way back in 2005-2007? Didn't Savior, iloveoov, and nada make 1 base TvZ obsolete in 2005-2006? Even Boxer Mr 'I will stay on 1 base and float my cc to the natural when it mines out' 14 cc'ed twice against Savior.
I'm certainly not going to suggest that Giyom in 2000 could compete evenly with S-class players even from 2005, but I'd like to point out that what you're saying... isn't quite right. The effectiveness of a strategy is always map dependent and you're not going to do something like 14cc on Jungle Story unless you are suicidal. Hell, even on LT which was the most standard map of that era...
I'm not going to lie and say that builds would be the same as what they were then. Certain discoveries that occurred after those maps were abandoned -- like muta stacking -- would definitely change the picture. But I also think that you're crazy if you think modern builds would work the same way or even necessarily work at all. Modern maps do tend to fit a cookie-cutter mold, at least with the main-nat structuring. Maps that break away from this mold often wind up having huge racial imbalances and feature unique strategies.
Believe what you want lol
On topic grrr was awesome. He figured out how incredible fast carriers were PvT back in 2000 and it took Terrans until oov in 2003-4ish and really Flash in 2008 to figure out how to stop them. It was really a wonder other Protoss never caught on.
In particular grrr@6 vs sven@12 on LT from either wcg 2001 or 2002 was shocking: a 2 base grrr with carrier/goon trashed sven's 4 base tank/goliath. Another memorable one was grrr@3 vs Nada@9 on LT for some ghemtv event.
Giyom pretty much deserves to be called "bonjwa zero." It's hard to judge him against the guys who came later for a number of reasons, but the fact that he won 75000 dollars in prize money over a 6 month period should say everything that needs to be said.
On February 07 2011 10:57 ghrur wrote: Wow, I'm really thankful this thread got bumped. Hearing about how awesome Grrrr was and watching one of his old games was a real treat. ^_^
Giyom is pretty much the only reason that I somewhat got interested in the professional scene. Back in Quebec, people were talking about Giyom and that's how I even know the game lol.
EPT
. He is even playing a friendly match afterwards ! Nice to see.
