how good was grrr

On August 07 2010 21:10 choboPEon wrote:
Grrrr.... was fairly dominant for over a year and before he was the single dominant player, it was him and Maynard dominating above all others. He won everything for a period - there wasn't as much to win as there is today but his accomplishments are still really impressive. He was a celebrity, screaming girls and all. He was easily the most successful player to come out of NA/Europe (he won a StarLeague) but Idra is probably the best Western player ever - but that's because everyone today is better than players 10 years ago.

or something like that

On August 07 2010 21:11 nK)Duke wrote:


elky is

On August 07 2010 21:05 SilverSkyLark wrote:
look for his PvZ against..........can't recall, it's a twilight map, I'll look, it's pretty popular.

He was also the first OSL winner and therefore, by default, the first Royal Roader.

On August 07 2010 21:36 Crunchums wrote:

Deep Purple?

On August 07 2010 21:44 Dataleif wrote:

wasnt it the game on blade storm where he used dark archons?

On August 07 2010 21:42 zerglingsfolife wrote:
They interview Grrr at about 15:25. Documentary by National Geographic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw

The only foreigner to win an OSL

On August 07 2010 21:44 Dataleif wrote:

wasnt it the game on blade storm where he used dark archons?

On August 08 2010 04:17 Hautamaki wrote:
Grrr was the Boxer before Boxer. There was a time of about a year, a bit more, where every time you heard of a cash prize tournament and Grrr entered, you would bet even money that he'd win it. There isn't a player right now who dominates the way Grrr did in his prime, and hasn't been for some time. Of course, there was less competition then, no pro-gaming scene to speak of like we have now. You could say that Grrr dominating Broodwar in those days is the same as someone dominating some other game like DoW today.

On August 08 2010 04:57 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
you guys are all forgetting Testie among top foreigners of all-time.

For Grrrr...'s era, the only players who were even close to him during his prime in the entire world were anywhere close to his level were H.O.T.-Forever, GARIMTO and BoxeR.

He was the player to beat for about a year, so compare him to modern players such as Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, sAviOr, and iloveoov when these players were winning everything.

On August 08 2010 05:10 randomKo_Orean wrote:


I say C/C+.

Grrr was god among men

On August 08 2010 05:27 Qwerty. wrote:
didn't the Koreans pronounce his name like guud-d-d-d-d-d or something

On August 08 2010 05:37 Tossim111 wrote:



grrr... would be way above those kinds of players still now, his skills back then are still way more better than todays generation of players, the only thing he would need is todays build orders

On August 08 2010 06:22 zoltanqc wrote:
quebecs finest

On August 08 2010 08:02 JohannesH wrote:
He would do decently on ladder today... IF the 10 yo maps were used.

On August 08 2010 05:44 Mortality wrote:
Grrrr is the most accomplished foreigner in history. He made 75000 dollars (seventy five thousand -- not a typo) during a 6 month period out of tournament winnings. Pretty damn impressive, no?

In the pre-Boxer era, we generally think of Terran as the weak race (most people who only started watching progaming relatively recently probably cannot even comprehend this), but realistically, PvZ was also known for being difficult. Grrrr was one of those few Protoss players who could waltz through Zerg competitors.

In his day, he was the best.

By the way... to people talking about Grrrr in terms of ICCup ranking... frankly, what you're doing is stupid. Of course mechanics and strategy have changed a lot since then, so if you teleported Grrrr from 1999/2000 to today, he'd have a lot of difficulty even against low level opponents... but Grrrr was #1 for a reason. He was smarter than any D or C or even B rank player on ICCup. Period. Given time to learn modern strategy, even just 1-2 seasons of serious, hardcore training, he would do well. Mechanics are the only factor that would potentially hold him back.

Trying to "rank him" on ICCup just does not make sense.

On August 08 2010 08:25 eXigent. wrote:

This is another example. Basically you are contributing his success as a RTS player on the maps 10years ago? Gimme a break, he would be just fine on any map at any given time, because he is an amazing player.

On August 08 2010 03:17 Antisocialmunky wrote:
What is he doing now-a-days? He was cameraed in the audience at the Movie vs Flash OSL I think.

His Liquidpedia quote made me giggle.

"My favorite match up is Protoss vs Zerg. I don't mean that I win PvZ all the time, but I mean that I like to play it. What I like to do against a 3 hatch hydra user is a simple zealot rush with fast gas, then stop making zealots after 5, tech quickly to Templars and possibly expand even before my templar archives is done. Then I get psi storm/archons and zealot speed. I really like to get fast templar and fast expansion, and it's the best way. It works best at 12:00 on lost temple."

:-D

On August 08 2010 03:17 Antisocialmunky wrote:
What is he doing now-a-days? He was cameraed in the audience at the Movie vs Flash OSL I think.

His Liquidpedia quote made me giggle.

"My favorite match up is Protoss vs Zerg. I don't mean that I win PvZ all the time, but I mean that I like to play it. What I like to do against a 3 hatch hydra user is a simple zealot rush with fast gas, then stop making zealots after 5, tech quickly to Templars and possibly expand even before my templar archives is done. Then I get psi storm/archons and zealot speed. I really like to get fast templar and fast expansion, and it's the best way. It works best at 12:00 on lost temple."

:-D

On August 08 2010 09:37 igotmyown wrote:

You realize spawning pools cost 150 minerals back then? And zealots were 80/80.

People who say that he would be D on iccup are giving themselves way too much credit. Believing that general players themselves are that much better, as opposed to the strategies (which someone like Grrr... could probably learn pretty quickly), suggests nonsense like they would have a chance to be the best in the world back then.

It would be better to compare Grrrr... to Mondragon - not the best anymore, but with enough skills and understanding of the game to adapt to new strategies.

On August 07 2010 21:05 SilverSkyLark wrote:
look for his PvZ against..........can't recall, it's a twilight map, I'll look, it's pretty popular.

He was also the first OSL winner and therefore, by default, the first Royal Roader.

On August 08 2010 11:09 Housemd wrote:



wasnt he the second osl winner. From Liquipedia: 2000 Hanaro Tongshin OSL Champion (2nd OSL in Pro Gaming History)

Im not sure if the Progamer Korean Open counts as an OSL though.

On August 08 2010 06:00 swanized wrote:


nonsense



Grrr would struggle in D+ possibly,


you know why Grrr fell? Grrr thought using hotkeys was a waste of time and hotkeys were not necessary for good plays

once Koreans got mechanically correct Grrr fell

If Grrr came to ICCUP with today's build orders and his skills of 2000 he would struggle in D

On August 08 2010 06:00 swanized wrote:


nonsense



Grrr would struggle in D+ possibly,


you know why Grrr fell? Grrr thought using hotkeys was a waste of time and hotkeys were not necessary for good plays

once Koreans got mechanically correct Grrr fell

If Grrr came to ICCUP with today's build orders and his skills of 2000 he would struggle in D

On August 08 2010 17:39 ShinyGerbil wrote:
People are right about not being able to gauge grrrr's skill compared to current iCCup stats. At his peak in 1999 using his 1999 build orders, i think he'd peak around C-/C. However, if he literally went on now and practiced for 2-3 months, relearning the game, there's no doubt he could reach at least B.

On August 08 2010 06:00 swanized wrote:
nonsense

Grrr would struggle in D+ possibly,


you know why Grrr fell? Grrr thought using hotkeys was a waste of time and hotkeys were not necessary for good plays

once Koreans got mechanically correct Grrr fell

If Grrr came to ICCUP with today's build orders and his skills of 2000 he would struggle in D

On August 08 2010 06:00 swanized wrote:


nonsense



Grrr would struggle in D+ possibly,


you know why Grrr fell? Grrr thought using hotkeys was a waste of time and hotkeys were not necessary for good plays

once Koreans got mechanically correct Grrr fell

If Grrr came to ICCUP with today's build orders and his skills of 2000 he would struggle in D

On August 08 2010 16:03 Boonbag wrote:


What a load of bs.

Fyi; Grrrr... almost never ever practiced for any game. He'd rather play Tetris actually...

He actually started to lose because he didn't care about Sc anymore and playing 10 hours a day wasn't his thing.

Had he practiced 10 hours a day and joined Ideal space back then, he would have dominated Korea for a good extra year.

Also, all these players like Reach, Kingdom, Boxer etc... He was beating them up pretty bad online, while having half the apm they had.

On August 08 2010 20:01 swanized wrote:



well sure maybe had Grrr practiced and all he would be really strong but the question was if Grrr palyed with his skills of 2000, not had he practiced 10 hours a day, learned modern build orders etc,

I don't want to take anything from Grrr he was a superb player but if he came back today he would get crushed easily,

had he practiced in ideal space etc,etc,etc then I don't know, you can't compare Eras

On August 08 2010 15:15 Day[9] wrote:
Grrrr... was an absolutely brilliant gamer all around. I don't think that ANY comparison to "current skill trends" can possibly do him justice. I was around and watched him play in the early 2000~2001 era times, and the strategies he pioneered with all three races became the standards for ages. It's one thing to be able to download a reppack, and then climb your way up to A on iCCUP by mimicking what other players do. It's another to figure a game out long before anyone else and push the proscene in the process.

Totally admirable player. Watching Grrrr...'s comeback vs [B&G]TheBoy was one of my favorite memories .

On August 08 2010 19:25 Altair wrote:


Is this your ICCUP account? http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/swanized.html

I will restrain form further comments, i do not want to get banned. LOL

On August 08 2010 21:13 Rekrul wrote:
btw, funny story

artosis had been playing sc2 beta hardcore for weeks on end, grrr had only a few games under his belt

grrr had a party at his house w/ tasteless and artosis and some peeps

grrr played a game of sc2 vs artosis and easily raped him

artosis not knowing grrr so well, instead of nerd raging (cuz he too scared to do it in that kinda situation especially cuz it's IRL) just quietly left the party w/out saying anything

On August 08 2010 20:01 swanized wrote:



well sure maybe had Grrr practiced and all he would be really strong but the question was if Grrr palyed with his skills of 2000, not had he practiced 10 hours a day, learned modern build orders etc,

I don't want to take anything from Grrr he was a superb player but if he came back today he would get crushed easily,

had he practiced in ideal space etc,etc,etc then I don't know, you can't compare Eras

On August 08 2010 21:13 Rekrul wrote:
btw, funny story

artosis had been playing sc2 beta hardcore for weeks on end, grrr had only a few games under his belt

grrr had a party at his house w/ tasteless and artosis and some peeps

grrr played a game of sc2 vs artosis and easily raped him

artosis not knowing grrr so well, instead of nerd raging (cuz he too scared to do it in that kinda situation especially cuz it's IRL) just quietly left the party w/out saying anything

On August 07 2010 21:42 zerglingsfolife wrote:
They interview Grrr at about 15:25. Documentary by National Geographic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw

On August 08 2010 20:16 Manifesto7 wrote:


Then what is the point of your post. That if someone doesn't play they are worse than current players? That is pretty fucking obvious to me.

Please argue less foolish points.

On August 09 2010 02:02 Waxangel wrote:
oh shit, is that former female progamer Lena in that pic? I forgot she existed -_-

On August 08 2010 19:25 Altair wrote:


Is this your ICCUP account? http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/swanized.html

I will restrain form further comments, i do not want to get banned. LOL

On August 09 2010 02:35 swanized wrote:


ok cool I am D/D+ and not very good at Starcraft

what was your point exactly?

On August 08 2010 21:13 Rekrul wrote:
btw, funny story

artosis had been playing sc2 beta hardcore for weeks on end, grrr had only a few games under his belt

grrr had a party at his house w/ tasteless and artosis and some peeps

grrr played a game of sc2 vs artosis and easily raped him

artosis not knowing grrr so well, instead of nerd raging (cuz he too scared to do it in that kinda situation especially cuz it's IRL) just quietly left the party w/out saying anything

On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote:
To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:

Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.

NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.

Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.

I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.

On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote:
To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:

Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.

NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.

Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.

I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.

On February 07 2011 04:04 MiniRoman wrote:
To all the players who think they know what it was like playing on PRE-LUNA maps. You don't. If you think you do here's a challenge:

Go play origianl LT, Jungle Story, Legacy of Char, Jim Raynor's Memory. All these old maps that used to be popular.

NOW: try to macro. Notice how your main has 7 min patches, expansion prolly 6 and not necessary with a second gas. You can't FE cause the map pathing is silly and all your build order timings don't line up.

Say grrrr somehow used "2000 BOs" (cause he's had them memorized this whole 11 years) he would look at his money and be like "holy fuck I have a lot of money" and then his build would change.

I wish I say this silly argument earlier. The new standardization of maps (for most part standard min patch relationship between mains and expands which are in 99% case more than the older maps) changed the flow of the game outside this guys time. Without realizing that, you can't even begin to make a legitmate comparison.

On February 07 2011 07:19 Ack1027 wrote:
Ver saves the thread.

I was in korea in 2004 and it was so nice seeing Grrr on shows like Bnet attack and his korean was really good.

On February 07 2011 07:08 Ver wrote:

On topic grrr was awesome. He figured out how incredible fast carriers were PvT back in 2000 and it took Terrans until oov in 2003-4ish and really Flash in 2008 to figure out how to stop them. It was really a wonder other Protoss never caught on.

In particular grrr@6 vs sven@12 on LT from either wcg 2001 or 2002 was shocking: a 2 base grrr with carrier/goon trashed sven's 4 base tank/goliath. Another memorable one was grrr@3 vs Nada@9 on LT for some ghemtv event.

On February 07 2011 07:08 Ver wrote:


Let's look at some of the popular old maps:

+ Show Spoiler +

Old strategies (predominantly one-base control and harass instead economically optimized ones) would actually be better on modern maps that have the extra main money.

Yes there were some weirdo maps like Bifrost and Blaze, but modern maps still have oddballs from time to time (815 stands out).

And of course I'm not factoring in the island maps like Dire Straits or Isles of Siren or even the semi islands like Forbidden Zone which are a whole new mess, though island maps stayed until 2004ish after the Paradoxx Protoss OSLs.

But oh wait, didn't Savior, Reach, rA, and Bisu prove that 1 base builds PvZ are trash, even with 9 mineral patch mains, all the way back in 2005-2007? Didn't Savior, iloveoov, and nada make 1 base TvZ obsolete in 2005-2006? Even Boxer Mr 'I will stay on 1 base and float my cc to the natural when it mines out' 14 cc'ed twice against Savior.

Believe what you want lol

On topic grrr was awesome. He figured out how incredible fast carriers were PvT back in 2000 and it took Terrans until oov in 2003-4ish and really Flash in 2008 to figure out how to stop them. It was really a wonder other Protoss never caught on.

In particular grrr@6 vs sven@12 on LT from either wcg 2001 or 2002 was shocking: a 2 base grrr with carrier/goon trashed sven's 4 base tank/goliath. Another memorable one was grrr@3 vs Nada@9 on LT for some ghemtv event.

On February 07 2011 10:57 ghrur wrote:
Wow, I'm really thankful this thread got bumped. Hearing about how awesome Grrrr was and watching one of his old games was a real treat. ^_^