EPTOn July 09 2010 07:23 GreEny K wrote:
... Have you played a pvt with marines versus zealots?
... Have you played a pvt with marines versus zealots?
Have you ever played a tvp with non-upgraded marines vs cannons?
What would a protoss favored map look like? - Page 5
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Have you ever played a tvp with non-upgraded marines vs cannons? | ||
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abaDURRR
Canada88 Posts
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4835 Posts
On July 09 2010 07:55 T.O.P. wrote: It's not good in pvz. Lurkers on cliffs are imba. There's a reason Movie always gets Reavers on that map. 50% miss chance up the cliff makes Dragoons fucking horrible. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Good places for warp in pylons. Lot of cliffs for blink/collosus abuse. semi tight paths, but multiple paths (like Kulas). No cliffs on nats? | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote: I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote: In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines? -___- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=19 and stay out! | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
edit I think the name was Evolution Predator, but I can't remember if that's the right map | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 15:20 Hautamaki wrote: Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have. Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans. With that said, Baekmagokji was decently P favored! ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/160_Baekmagoji.jpg) | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
On July 09 2010 16:33 Plexa wrote: Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans. Really? Why not? Has some patch buffed terran air? | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 16:49 Hautamaki wrote: Really? Why not? Has some patch buffed terran air? No we haven't had any patches, just the style of Terran play at the moment pretty much relinquished Carriers to near useless for a long time. They're only just seeing some play time again recently after about 1.75 years of nothing. This is primarily thanks to Flash and his TvP revolutions on Katrina (which was a 2 base carrier heaven). A modern playstyle on paradoxxx would probably lead to (at least) even play in PvT imo. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
Although the way that PvZ and PvT have been playing out, it's very difficult to create a map with that kind of P imbalance in both matchups. | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
On July 09 2010 16:59 Plexa wrote: No we haven't had any patches, just the style of Terran play at the moment pretty much relinquished Carriers to near useless for a long time. They're only just seeing some play time again recently after about 1.75 years of nothing. This is primarily thanks to Flash and his TvP revolutions on Katrina (which was a 2 base carrier heaven). A modern playstyle on paradoxxx would probably lead to (at least) even play in PvT imo. Hmm, well, carriers have always been counterable cost effectively at the highest levels but what about arbiters? The triple whammy of cloaking, stasis, and recall has always been the toss' trump card, don't tell me even arbs don't work any more! | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 17:20 Hautamaki wrote: Arbs still work - more so than ever. Although Terrans use science vessels way better than they did in 2004 and most good terrans can EMP arbiters before recalls get in. It's certainly not a done deal though, I just don't think it's as strongly P>>T as it used to be Hmm, well, carriers have always been counterable cost effectively at the highest levels but what about arbiters? The triple whammy of cloaking, stasis, and recall has always been the toss' trump card, don't tell me even arbs don't work any more!  (I would say its about even)Another map which almost works is monty hall - although I'm not sure on the PvZ balance. | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
And what makes Baekmagokji toss favoured? Are those sunkens and Xel Naga temples supposed to be like destructible rocks and 'creeps?' I suppose if those are sunkens then perhaps toss has an edge because zealots take down sunkens more efficiently than marines or lings? That and the billions of resources in the main of course... Sorry to pester you with all these questions but I find it all very interesting to hear about the game still evolving after 5 years of being away =p | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
long ground distance always favors P in PvT and short air distance means faster shuttle drops/obs in PvZ, long ground distance can make 4-5-9 pools ineffective whilst although a mutalisk rush threat is prominent, really fast corsairs can make scouting really easy for protoss to react | ||
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Smu
Serbia164 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 17:37 Hautamaki wrote: Hmm interesting. So what do terrans do now that makes late game toss air weaker? More emping? Ghosts with lockdown? And what makes Baekmagokji toss favoured? Are those sunkens and Xel Naga temples supposed to be like destructible rocks and 'creeps?' I suppose if those are sunkens then perhaps toss has an edge because zealots take down sunkens more efficiently than marines or lings? That and the billions of resources in the main of course... Sorry to pester you with all these questions but I find it all very interesting to hear about the game still evolving after 5 years of being away =p haha its alright ^^ i remember reading your strategy guide when I first got started in BW lol! Terrans have the same tools available to them like they always have, they're just better at using them. Against Carriers you barely see any wraith transitions anymore (the only exception I can think of was pusan vs leta on grand line - but thats a biig exception). Flash killed 2 base carriers with his fast armory build (which got him quick upgrades). By the time you would transition into Carriers Terrans were already at 3-3 (or 2-1) meaning your carriers were like glass cannons. Couple that with the fact that Terrans learned how to macro a lot better, Carriers just were always an inferior option to Arbiter (that is, until recently where Arbiter/Carrier play is more common). With that said, Arbiters got stronger since 2005 as a new generation of Protoss players took them up. Recalls became an invaluable way to attack Turtling Terrans and I dare say became a more useful spell than stasis. Stasis still has its uses, but I think overall Recall is used slightly more often. With that said, in a big battle Protoss still try to stasis everything they can - just that they would rather avoid that battle in the first place! Protoss also brought storm back into their game play (although it's kinda died out more recently, which is a shame). There's a pretty amazing video of Jangbi storming Nada to death somewhere around here - it's worth looking up since it's really quite impressive haha. Baek was pretty protoss favored because you got 2 sets of mineral lines in the main and it was really easy to expand to the natural. The design of the middle made PvT pretty good (in addition to all the economic benefits) and PvZ meant you didn't need to FE anymore. Although, the statistics say that Z>P on the map, but I would argue that is due to the small sample size of the games and the fact that Zergs were rarely played so when one was it was a bit of surprise. | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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