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First, I'd like to clarify that the map has to be favoring protoss in both PvT and PvZ.
I know this topic has been discussed before, but the threads I've searched through are inconclusive and/or old. Most give examples of a good PvT map or a PvZ map, but never a map where protoss is favored in both match ups.
I also seem to remember there was a TLPD-style way of viewing map favoritism between the match ups. I have only seen it once and haven't been able to locate it again.
EDIT: basically, what would make "protoss" Battle Royale... so imbalanced for P that no proteam would send any Ts or Zs on it.
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The more manly it is the better it is for protoss
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I would say very open maps :O.
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I think it is really hard to make a map that favores heavily protoss since P is not that straight forward.
Very open maps are zergs heaven, since reavers won't do as much dmg and surrounds are pretty easy, tho tight maps favor T a lot
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Depends, stuff that makes it good vs Terran, is different than what makes it good vs Zerg.
Katrina and Neo Requiem come to mind when I think of maps that are very P>>>T. Maps that are P>>>Z are harder to think of. Loki, maybe?
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a map with 12 neutral battlecruisers in each main for a protoss to mind control :D
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I can't find the map balance thing either...the ones with the little bars that show balance....but at first glance,
Troy seems to be such a map...
58.1% PvT and 55.6% PvZ
Another obvious such map is fastest map possible on battle.net....
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On July 04 2010 13:52 Darkren wrote:
The more manly it is the better it is for protoss
So if it is shaped like a penis....
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Stuff that makes maps very P>>>T are maps where there is no cliff at the natural for terran to drop tanks(tau cross and lost temple)or places where tanks can fire from behind the nat(destination) and where the third base is very hard to defend like on python and doesn't have a gas. And of course like that guy mentioned it has to be very open in the center.
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Relatively flat, open, and unbuildable centers are good for protoss vs terran (think neo medusa) - allows for good flanking of the terran army.
Against zerg it isn't as clear what factors would favor toss, because both zerg and toss require a lot of gas in that mu (so it isn't like Z vs bio terran where low gas maps favor one race or the other).
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On July 04 2010 14:29 jgju wrote:
Relatively flat, open, and unbuildable centers are good for protoss vs terran (think neo medusa) - allows for good flanking of the terran army.
Against zerg it isn't as clear what factors would favor toss, because both zerg and toss require a lot of gas in that mu (so it isn't like Z vs bio terran where low gas maps favor one race or the other).
to make a P>>>Z map, put 3 easy gas (like Loki or God's Garden) and make the other expos impossible to defend early on as Z (like Loki)
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For PvT at least - it would look something like this.
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map with gas on the main base only with 12 mineral patch in main and natural.
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I don't claim to be an expert on map balance, but I would imagine the problem with making protoss favored in both match ups would be difficult because of how different pvz and pvt are in terms of expanding. In pvt, protoss mass expand while in pvz they stay relatively conservative.
In both of the terran matchups, the terran stays relatively conservative on bases and in both the zerg match ups, they mass expand.
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outsider, though maybe not for pvz
maybe since they could 2gate
but p>t on outsider because of recall/reavers
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On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas.
Rofl... you're right though.
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On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:Rofl... you're right though.
I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas...
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oh this is easy, make the bases like 5 seconds apart, probe rush ftw.
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A good map for toss for both PvT AND PvZ? Thats a tall order. A good PvT map would have no ramp and a good proxy spot near their base(perhaps through a cliff?). A good PvZ map....it would need to have choke points to funnel zerg forces. I got it! Take Heartbreak Ridge and give it two or three points of entry through the cliffs instead of just that one. Hard for terran to wall and it forces zerg units to clump up going in or out. I must admit to you guys that I am not a protoss player and favor terran. But an ideal toss map is hard to think up....
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On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas...
Cannons beg to differ.
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On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas...
No, terran would be unplayable. The game would devolve into static D vs. static D, and bunkers without range upgrade are outranged by sunkens/cannons.
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A map with no gas would have to have HG so small that cannons/spores could reach it for our BM friend Idra though.
Honestly, PvT advantages are often ZvP advantages as well though.
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lol we should totally have a game where no one is allowed to get gas lol! seems fun lol
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gaia
at least for ZvP: P can abuse of air harass, easy to defend nat and third, open in the middle...
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medusa was pretty good for protoss. pretty much all the maps from the clubday/incruit days lol
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A destructible building blocking entrance - thats good in pvz
Then add features around the building so that you can pylon jump it with a probe.
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An island map without enough land for heavy dropship play would probably do it.
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These remind me that we need island maps now..
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Vs T it's great when the terrain isn't buildable. 
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10387 Posts
Add an unbuildable center and surround the bases with a cliff (like Medusa) that is unbuildable (but walkable) for Reaver harass/recall to make PvT imba. Pretty sure an inbase min-only third (like Andro) w/ lots of mineral patches would help Protoss, but I'm not too sure on that one. Add some islands w/ double gas and good space to build cannons.
A second entrance blocked by mineral patches benefits Protoss when they are contained, but be sure to add a lot so that it can't be mined out early for some Zerg cheese. Have like 13 or more mineral patches in the main to make PvZ easy. The center should have a couple of structures to keep it from being too open, ala Fighting Spirit or Neo Requiem.
That's pretty much all I can think of that would make a map universally imba for Protoss. Maybe making the map a semi-island like Troy or Plasma would make it worse
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The reason Katrina is so P>T is because terrans had such a hard time dealing with the fast carriers, now they don't since Flash came up with the build that would be the standard type of play now. So if progamers would play on katrina again I think the balance would be more T=P. What's so funny about Katrina is that everyone cried about "omfg siege tank imba, terran heaven". 
IMO in PvT a very open map with long rush distance and hard to secure third base and no ramp would be P>T.
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Katrina was always a lot harder for zvp rather than tvp ~~ Huge distance made expanding really hard.
I guess that's key for a protoss map in general, keep the expansions and mains really far apart and hard to defend. Islands are nice too.
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Troy and 815 are best protoss maps in every matchup. Oh also i forgot about forbidden zone
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isn't neo forbidden zone toss favored?
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The perfect protoss map would have to be a map where the larger open areas are placed so that it favors a protoss defending terran main timing attacks, all the while with strategic choke points to prevent zerg from keeping map control too easily.
The bases cant be too far, and a third base could be place around the first one (like Longinus), so that you can easily defend your surrounding edges all the while keeping your main safe from drops.
There should be a relative easy non-main base with 2 geyser, since Protoss will most likely require a lot of gas investment in mid and late game. Protoss High Templar and Archons are hardest units to fight against as Zerg. Arbiters and High Templar are very powerful to diminish the Terran army. Therefore, a Protoss with a lot of gas can become strong quickly.
The natural expansion entrance should be easy to narrow. In that fashion, the Protoss can easily FE and prevent lings run-by and mid game vulture raids.
I think that is about it.
Longinus, Troy and Katrina are possibly the best maps for Protoss.
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I think something with retardedly small bases and chokes so that carriers and corsairs will have fun sniping and arbiters can recall
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On July 04 2010 22:30 streamofhonour wrote:
I think something with retardedly small bases and chokes so that carriers and corsairs will have fun sniping and arbiters can recall Before Carriers can make their presence the map will become tank heaven.
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How can you not find it? Go to the TLPD and click maps. Click on a map and viola it's done. Either that or type in a name of the map and you can get to the directory from there. Something tells me you didn't try hard enough. Either way, here you go.
Top Ten of All Time (in random order):
Neo Forbidden Zone:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/55_Neo%20Forbidden%20Zone_thumbnail.jpg)
Neo Hall of Valhalla:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/95_Neo%20Hall%20of%20Valhalla_thumbnail.jpg)
Enter the Dragon 2004
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/60_Enter%20the%20Dragon%202004_thumbnail.jpg)
Paradoxxx 2
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/107_Paradoxxx%202_thumbnail.jpg)
One of the worst ZvP maps of all time.
Korhal Of Ceres
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/126_Korhal%20Of%20Ceres_thumbnail.jpg)
Biggest TvP joke map of all time.
Gorky Island
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/129_Gorky%20Island_thumbnail.jpg)
See Paradoxxx 2.
Parallel Lines
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/65_Parallel%20Lines_thumbnail.jpg)
Again Zerg couldn't do much. Parallel Lines 2 ultimately fixed this.
Snowbound
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/132_Snowbound_thumbnail.jpg)
One of the worst ZvP, TvP maps of all time. Thank Blizzard for this abomination.
Neo Blaze
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/99_Neo%20Blaze_thumbnail.jpg)
This map will make you want to quit Zerg if you run into a Protoss.
Plains to Hill
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/77_Plains%20to%20Hill_thumbnail.jpg)
Terran really suffer here to P.
._.
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Paradoxxx Why do I always think there's a porn reference in this name.
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more cliffs = more carrier imbal
enough said~
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On July 04 2010 23:52 Kryxia wrote:
more cliffs = more carrier imbal
enough said~
Edit: Unbuildable areas always helps too
Edit 2: Crap, wrong button
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On July 04 2010 15:23 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... Cannons beg to differ.
In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
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On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:23 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... Cannons beg to differ. In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
Well the marines don't have stim, range, or medic support so well placed cannons would be pretty effective. Though you basically have to populate the map with cannons (might as well since lots without speed are useless)
edit: actually you would lose since your cannons would freeze after some point haha
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On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:23 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... Cannons beg to differ. In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
protoss can go forge and build a mass cannon contain at the front. terran can only build turrets bunker and marines so it's going to be pretty hard to break out. then protoss mines out the rest of the map and continues building cannons until terran is starved out and eventually makes zealots or keeps pushing to the terran's last buildings
also the reason why i think it's so hard to make a completely P imba map is because the same factors that make it easy to win PvZ are the ones that make it easy to win TvP, ex. easy 3rd gas, small chokes
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On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:23 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... Cannons beg to differ. In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
In a situation where marines don't have stim, range, or medics.
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Loki 3
My favorite map by far
Totally Protoss favored
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Medusa.
How to make a good P>T map T>P?
Neo Medusa.
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Collosseum 2 seems a bit protoss favored aswell, Iccup stats are
ZvP 272 — 279 (49%)
TvP 233 — 256 (48%)
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A large amount of minerals at the main and nat is the only thing I can think of thats good both PvT and PvZ
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open spaces with a min only natural i guess. Would certainly make P decent vs all other matchups
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On July 04 2010 22:52 StarStruck wrote:
How can you not find it? Go to the TLPD and click maps. Click on a map and viola it's done. Either that or type in a name of the map and you can get to the directory from there. Something tells me you didn't try hard enough. Either way, here you go.
There was a nifty version where it showed all the maps together with colored bars showing imbalance. And you can sort them with the various imbalances.
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On July 04 2010 13:55 YoonHo wrote:
I would say very open maps :O.
Yes, but if it were very open Zerg would probably have and advantage over toss then.
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On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:23 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... Cannons beg to differ. In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
I just tested it, 15 cannons = about 100 marines. And they cost as much as 45 marines.
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On July 05 2010 05:12 ccou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 22:52 StarStruck wrote:
How can you not find it? Go to the TLPD and click maps. Click on a map and viola it's done. Either that or type in a name of the map and you can get to the directory from there. Something tells me you didn't try hard enough. Either way, here you go.
There was a nifty version where it showed all the maps together with colored bars showing imbalance. And you can sort them with the various imbalances.
Map Balance Table. Nifty, sure, but unfortunately still undocumented. Last I checked, it still had a few duplicate entries to watch out for, probably cross-pollination with the stats from the TSLD.
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10387 Posts
I just had the thought that adding random unbuildable patches of land at the gas third would help tremendously for Protoss in PvZ, since then Zergs won't be able to sim-city effectively and thereby die to timing attacks without sacrificing more economy.
Wouldn't really affect PvT too much since Protoss would still be able to build pylons and cannons to defend it from vulture harass, if the unbuildable land is positioned correctly.
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On July 05 2010 10:14 ArvickHero wrote:
I just had the thought that adding random unbuildable patches of land at the gas third would help tremendously for Protoss in PvZ, since then Zergs won't be able to sim-city effectively and thereby die to timing attacks without sacrificing more economy.
Wouldn't really affect PvT too much since Protoss would still be able to build pylons and cannons to defend it from vulture harass, if the unbuildable land is positioned correctly.
Smart idea!
Protoss could go 4 gate 2 archon + zealots and force the Zerg to waste so much money just to survive it. Kind of like how Protoss used to own zerg back when Protoss was dominating. Before Zergs learned to simcity, Protoss often defeated Zerg in one decisive blow of zealots and archons.
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You can't really have a single specific trait of a map that makes it favored to one particular race. For example:
Openness makes P > T, but Z > P.
I think that its a combination of specific traits allow certain strategies to be used (or abused if its Troy for PvT =P). Fro example:
P > Z on Troy because there is very little open space for the zerg to flank the protoss army.
Also, P > T on Troy is because most protosses don't do the typical arbiter + goon, zealot army. They abuse the multiple cliffs and high grounds by going for carrier builds.
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Unbuildable center/bridges/etc. make it harder for Terran against Protoss. Against Zerg the easiest think I can think of is having 10+ mineral patches, although map layout has a bigger factor.
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I think its hard to make a protoss only map, unless its like othello or something where harassing is easy for HT, and HT only.
Cuz when PvT, P act like Z. And during PvZ, P act like T. P need to be quite bipolar :o
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In case people are still thinking about the marines vs cannons idea - just make sure there isn't any buildable ground large enough to accommodate a barracks (while being able to accommodate a forge, of course)
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A protoss favored map looks like Requiem or God's Garden.
EDIT: Nemesis or Othello go well too.
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On July 07 2010 00:38 Zona wrote:
In case people are still thinking about the marines vs cannons idea - just make sure there isn't any buildable ground large enough to accommodate a barracks (while being able to accommodate a forge, of course)
Well thats just lame
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On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:23 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas... Cannons beg to differ. In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
Cannons 2 hit rines. Try it. Marines without range or stim gets owned by cannons quickly. One cannon > 3 rines easily.
On July 05 2010 11:18 blahman3344 wrote:
You can't really have a single specific trait of a map that makes it favored to one particular race. For example:
Openness makes P > T, but Z > P.
I think that its a combination of specific traits allow certain strategies to be used (or abused if its Troy for PvT =P). Fro example:
P > Z on Troy because there is very little open space for the zerg to flank the protoss army.
Also, P > T on Troy is because most protosses don't do the typical arbiter + goon, zealot army. They abuse the multiple cliffs and high grounds by going for carrier builds.
Yes you can, openness favor zerg and chokes favor terran.
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Croatia9491 Posts
On July 04 2010 16:15 infinity2k9 wrote:
BGH
I can't believe only one person said this.
This is 100% true. Not only BGH is P favored in 1v1's, but in team matches as well ^^.
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free drone and scv in each main for protoss to mind control.
while it might not affect the gameplay too much, its certainly a feature that can only benefit the protoss and something that none of the other races can take advantage of.
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On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:Rofl... you're right though.
... Have you played a pvt with marines versus zealots?
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Really no one mentioned Heart break ridge 4 pages and no one mentioned it
so good pvt and pvz
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Carrier abuse is great on maps with many cliffs, walls and long runs between bases
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On July 04 2010 14:50 Duckvillelol wrote:For PvT at least - it would look something like this.
i wonder how many people thought of this exact joke, i know i did
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On July 09 2010 07:25 Gositerran wrote:
Really no one mentioned Heart break ridge 4 pages and no one mentioned it
so good pvt and pvz
It's not good in pvz. Lurkers on cliffs are imba.
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Anything with big open spaces really... Luna... Andromeda...
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There are obviously some p>t traits that also make for z>p and vice versa. The question is whether you can pick and choose all the traits that effect one matchup without effecting the other, and have it be enough.
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On July 09 2010 07:23 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 15:05 Lightwip wrote:On July 04 2010 14:58 hacpee wrote:
A map with no gas. Rofl... you're right though. ... Have you played a pvt with marines versus zealots?
Have you ever played a tvp with non-upgraded marines vs cannons?
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How about Destination without the little thing at the back and more bridges
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In mainbase the ground would be unbuildable in such a way that you can make gates but you cant make factories with addons.
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On July 09 2010 07:55 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 07:25 Gositerran wrote:
Really no one mentioned Heart break ridge 4 pages and no one mentioned it
so good pvt and pvz It's not good in pvz. Lurkers on cliffs are imba.
There's a reason Movie always gets Reavers on that map.
50% miss chance up the cliff makes Dragoons fucking horrible.
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I don't think anyone does very well on the chrystalis map
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I'd say a wide open nat favors protoss heavily in both matchups.
Good places for warp in pylons.
Lot of cliffs for blink/collosus abuse.
semi tight paths, but multiple paths (like Kulas).
No cliffs on nats?
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On July 04 2010 15:09 Spyfire242 wrote:
I think terran would be almost 100% win on a map with no gas...
On July 05 2010 00:39 Spyfire242 wrote:
In what situation did you think cannons/zealots would beat mass marines?
-___-
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=19
and stay out!
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Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have.
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Also in general really rich mains favour toss. There was another map, I think it was called Evolution somethingorother in which the main base had 2 sets of minerals and gasses so every race got an absolutely free fast expand, and the middle was wide open, and toss wrecked on that too. If toss can expand as fast as terran and zerg without having to worry about harassment at all toss can basically overpower any midgame force pretty easily.
edit I think the name was Evolution Predator, but I can't remember if that's the right map
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 15:20 Hautamaki wrote:
Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have.
Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans. With that said, Baekmagokji was decently P favored!
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/160_Baekmagoji.jpg)
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On July 09 2010 16:33 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 15:20 Hautamaki wrote:
Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have. Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans.
Really? Why not? Has some patch buffed terran air?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 16:49 Hautamaki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 16:33 Plexa wrote:On July 09 2010 15:20 Hautamaki wrote:
Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have. Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans. Really? Why not? Has some patch buffed terran air?
No we haven't had any patches, just the style of Terran play at the moment pretty much relinquished Carriers to near useless for a long time. They're only just seeing some play time again recently after about 1.75 years of nothing. This is primarily thanks to Flash and his TvP revolutions on Katrina (which was a 2 base carrier heaven). A modern playstyle on paradoxxx would probably lead to (at least) even play in PvT imo.
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United States17042 Posts
I would think that one of the properties of a P favored map would be a close, Mineral only third, and/or an island.
Although the way that PvZ and PvT have been playing out, it's very difficult to create a map with that kind of P imbalance in both matchups.
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On July 09 2010 16:59 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 16:49 Hautamaki wrote:On July 09 2010 16:33 Plexa wrote:On July 09 2010 15:20 Hautamaki wrote:
Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have. Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans. Really? Why not? Has some patch buffed terran air? No we haven't had any patches, just the style of Terran play at the moment pretty much relinquished Carriers to near useless for a long time. They're only just seeing some play time again recently after about 1.75 years of nothing. This is primarily thanks to Flash and his TvP revolutions on Katrina (which was a 2 base carrier heaven). A modern playstyle on paradoxxx would probably lead to (at least) even play in PvT imo.
Hmm, well, carriers have always been counterable cost effectively at the highest levels but what about arbiters? The triple whammy of cloaking, stasis, and recall has always been the toss' trump card, don't tell me even arbs don't work any more!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 17:20 Hautamaki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 16:59 Plexa wrote:On July 09 2010 16:49 Hautamaki wrote:On July 09 2010 16:33 Plexa wrote:On July 09 2010 15:20 Hautamaki wrote:
Paradoxxx favoured toss. Probably been said already, didn't read all the posts. But it was basically a pure island map, and the main had room for 2 or 3 nexi and it had 2 or 3 geysers and 20 some odd mineral patches. Can't remember exactly it's been years. But basically toss could wreck anything with mass sair/reaver/goon into mass sair/carrier/arb. Toss endgame air beats anything either zerg or terran have. Oddly enough, I dont think Paradoxxx would be Protoss favored at the moment... At least not against Terrans. Really? Why not? Has some patch buffed terran air? No we haven't had any patches, just the style of Terran play at the moment pretty much relinquished Carriers to near useless for a long time. They're only just seeing some play time again recently after about 1.75 years of nothing. This is primarily thanks to Flash and his TvP revolutions on Katrina (which was a 2 base carrier heaven). A modern playstyle on paradoxxx would probably lead to (at least) even play in PvT imo. Hmm, well, carriers have always been counterable cost effectively at the highest levels but what about arbiters? The triple whammy of cloaking, stasis, and recall has always been the toss' trump card, don't tell me even arbs don't work any more! Arbs still work - more so than ever. Although Terrans use science vessels way better than they did in 2004 and most good terrans can EMP arbiters before recalls get in. It's certainly not a done deal though, I just don't think it's as strongly P>>T as it used to be (I would say its about even)
Another map which almost works is monty hall - although I'm not sure on the PvZ balance.
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Hmm interesting. So what do terrans do now that makes late game toss air weaker? More emping? Ghosts with lockdown?
And what makes Baekmagokji toss favoured? Are those sunkens and Xel Naga temples supposed to be like destructible rocks and 'creeps?' I suppose if those are sunkens then perhaps toss has an edge because zealots take down sunkens more efficiently than marines or lings? That and the billions of resources in the main of course...
Sorry to pester you with all these questions but I find it all very interesting to hear about the game still evolving after 5 years of being away =p
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maybe short air distance/long ground distance?
long ground distance always favors P in PvT and short air distance means faster shuttle drops/obs
in PvZ, long ground distance can make 4-5-9 pools ineffective whilst although a mutalisk rush threat is prominent, really fast corsairs can make scouting really easy for protoss to react
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For a map to favor P, it just has to not favor Z or T. It cannot extremely heavily favor P, as they are not that straightforward. There was a map (forgot the name) that was used for around 20 pl games where Z had 100% percentage. The bases were very close but separated by a cliff. Playing Zerg meant you played with maphack from the 10th second thanks to the overlord. If the map has enough open spaces or more then 1 choke towards the enemy, and is close enough air wise to scout it early, it's a Zerg map. Natural expansion also has to defend the way into the main or ZvT would be impossible (altho it isn't as advantageous vs P, especially if the third base is not easy to get early or defend). If the map is tight and choke-y, and has a lot of cliffs, ramps, especially around important areas like expansions it will be a Terran map. The only thing that would make a P map, is a non-Z, non-T map, as without tactical advantages the other flavored armies enjoy, Protoss beat them straight up.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 17:37 Hautamaki wrote:
Hmm interesting. So what do terrans do now that makes late game toss air weaker? More emping? Ghosts with lockdown?
And what makes Baekmagokji toss favoured? Are those sunkens and Xel Naga temples supposed to be like destructible rocks and 'creeps?' I suppose if those are sunkens then perhaps toss has an edge because zealots take down sunkens more efficiently than marines or lings? That and the billions of resources in the main of course...
Sorry to pester you with all these questions but I find it all very interesting to hear about the game still evolving after 5 years of being away =p
haha its alright ^^ i remember reading your strategy guide when I first got started in BW lol!
Terrans have the same tools available to them like they always have, they're just better at using them. Against Carriers you barely see any wraith transitions anymore (the only exception I can think of was pusan vs leta on grand line - but thats a biig exception). Flash killed 2 base carriers with his fast armory build (which got him quick upgrades). By the time you would transition into Carriers Terrans were already at 3-3 (or 2-1) meaning your carriers were like glass cannons. Couple that with the fact that Terrans learned how to macro a lot better, Carriers just were always an inferior option to Arbiter (that is, until recently where Arbiter/Carrier play is more common).
With that said, Arbiters got stronger since 2005 as a new generation of Protoss players took them up. Recalls became an invaluable way to attack Turtling Terrans and I dare say became a more useful spell than stasis. Stasis still has its uses, but I think overall Recall is used slightly more often. With that said, in a big battle Protoss still try to stasis everything they can - just that they would rather avoid that battle in the first place! Protoss also brought storm back into their game play (although it's kinda died out more recently, which is a shame). There's a pretty amazing video of Jangbi storming Nada to death somewhere around here - it's worth looking up since it's really quite impressive haha.
Baek was pretty protoss favored because you got 2 sets of mineral lines in the main and it was really easy to expand to the natural. The design of the middle made PvT pretty good (in addition to all the economic benefits) and PvZ meant you didn't need to FE anymore. Although, the statistics say that Z>P on the map, but I would argue that is due to the small sample size of the games and the fact that Zergs were rarely played so when one was it was a bit of surprise.
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Thanks for the great reply. I remember theorycrafting lategame pvt all the time because it was so much fun. I imagined that recall was 2x better because of stasis; you could stasis vessels to prevent emp since stasis was instantaneous effect it was much easier to get off, and then recall with another arb. Plus I believe stasis cancels sv detection doesn't it? Anyways gotta go but thanks again =p
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 09 2010 18:10 Hautamaki wrote:
Thanks for the great reply. I remember theorycrafting lategame pvt all the time because it was so much fun. I imagined that recall was 2x better because of stasis; you could stasis vessels to prevent emp since stasis was instantaneous effect it was much easier to get off, and then recall with another arb. Plus I believe stasis cancels sv detection doesn't it? Anyways gotta go but thanks again =p Yup, getting a stasis off on 4 vessels can be game breaking these days!
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Just have a bunch of neutral T and Z units scattered across the map for the P to MC.
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How about island maps? Weren't they stopped because protoss was OP on those?
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A protoss favored map should have these imo:
-many mineral fields in the main and natural
-not that many, and not too defendable gas-expos
-choke which allows P to 10/15 vs T
-not too close main bases
-large main bases, so P can throw down his buildings np, and it makes it harder for T to cover his base against recalls
-not many highgrounds
-some cliffs, not close to main/natural but spread around the map in order that possible carriers/arbiters have an escape route
-single entrence natural base
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that map wasnt easy pvt at all
there are way better island maps for p
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On July 09 2010 07:25 Gositerran wrote:
Really no one mentioned Heart break ridge 4 pages and no one mentioned it
so good pvt and pvz
You serious? HBR was amazing for ZvP.
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Mineral heavy maps should favor terran really. Terran can go a vulture heavy style and own. Protoss is the one that needs a lot of gas later for arbiters.
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No wonder Protoss is always on the wrong side of the fork. We need to dedicate an entire thread and the brain power of countless to figure out how to make a single map that is imba toward Protoss!
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Polaris Rhapsody
narrow chokes helping for unflankable 3rd and 4th bases. a big ass map you can 12 nexus on. a 2 player map that makes it less costly to 8 scout with your probe. a map with a wide open middle, that is twilight, so it's easy on the eyes. if only it was islands, it would be perfect!
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On July 05 2010 05:44 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 05:12 ccou wrote:On July 04 2010 22:52 StarStruck wrote:
How can you not find it? Go to the TLPD and click maps. Click on a map and viola it's done. Either that or type in a name of the map and you can get to the directory from there. Something tells me you didn't try hard enough. Either way, here you go.
There was a nifty version where it showed all the maps together with colored bars showing imbalance. And you can sort them with the various imbalances. Map Balance Table. Nifty, sure, but unfortunately still undocumented. Last I checked, it still had a few duplicate entries to watch out for, probably cross-pollination with the stats from the TSLD.
The URL doesn't exist anymore and I tried to find it using the Liquipedia. Anyone know if the Map Balance Table still exists somewhere? o_O
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On May 30 2011 00:37 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 05:44 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On July 05 2010 05:12 ccou wrote:On July 04 2010 22:52 StarStruck wrote:
How can you not find it? Go to the TLPD and click maps. Click on a map and viola it's done. Either that or type in a name of the map and you can get to the directory from there. Something tells me you didn't try hard enough. Either way, here you go.
There was a nifty version where it showed all the maps together with colored bars showing imbalance. And you can sort them with the various imbalances. Map Balance Table. Nifty, sure, but unfortunately still undocumented. Last I checked, it still had a few duplicate entries to watch out for, probably cross-pollination with the stats from the TSLD. The URL doesn't exist anymore and I tried to find it using the Liquipedia. Anyone know if the Map Balance Table still exists somewhere? o_O
good bump, I'd like to know also.
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Central Plains?
They call it Protoss plains for a reason...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/162_Katrina.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/95_Neo%20Hall%20of%20Valhalla.jpg)
